[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Amen ! ;-) Jean-Marie > Le 10 mai 2019 à 21:54, Stewart McCoy a écrit : > > In discussing the plucking of strings with or without nails, I think it is > important to keep Thomas Mace, _Musick's Monument_ (1676) in mind. He was, of > course, referring to the lute, not the guitar, but I think his remarks on > page 73 are relevant for both plucked instruments: > > "But in the doing of This, take notice, that you strike not your Strings with > your Nails, as some do, who maintain it the Best way of Play, but I do not; > and for This Reason; because the Nail cannot draw so sweet a Sound from a > Lute, as the nibble end of the Flesh can do. > > I confess in a Consort, it might do well enough, where the Mellowness (which > is the most Excellent satisfaction from a Lute) is lost in the Crowd; but > Alone, I could never receive so good Content from the Nail, as from the > Flesh; However (This being my Opinion) let Others do, as seems Best to > Themselves." > > Stewart McCoy. > > -Original Message- From: Roland Hayes > Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 11:34 PM > To: Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] De Visee > > Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I understand, > but > > I have always thought his lute pieces were merely arrangements of > guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish the use > of nails. > > And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely played > theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to arrive on the > scene. > > Get [1]Outlook for Android > > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity > to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is > privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or > the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately by telephone and return the original message to us at > i...@legalaidbuffalo.org -- > > References > > 1. https://aka.ms/ghei36 > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] De Visee
In discussing the plucking of strings with or without nails, I think it is important to keep Thomas Mace, _Musick's Monument_ (1676) in mind. He was, of course, referring to the lute, not the guitar, but I think his remarks on page 73 are relevant for both plucked instruments: "But in the doing of This, take notice, that you strike not your Strings with your Nails, as some do, who maintain it the Best way of Play, but I do not; and for This Reason; because the Nail cannot draw so sweet a Sound from a Lute, as the nibble end of the Flesh can do. I confess in a Consort, it might do well enough, where the Mellowness (which is the most Excellent satisfaction from a Lute) is lost in the Crowd; but Alone, I could never receive so good Content from the Nail, as from the Flesh; However (This being my Opinion) let Others do, as seems Best to Themselves." Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Roland Hayes Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 11:34 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] De Visee Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I understand, but I have always thought his lute pieces were merely arrangements of guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish the use of nails. And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely played theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to arrive on the scene. Get [1]Outlook for Android This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and return the original message to us at i...@legalaidbuffalo.org -- References 1. https://aka.ms/ghei36 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
La Dirindina! That must be great fun. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 16:27 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time - I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.' Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails is entirely up to you. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[4]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Well then - are there any recordings? On 10.05.19 17:23, Ralf Mattes wrote: Am Freitag, 10. Mai 2019 16:38 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: .. and no one ever plays Francesco with plectrum-thimbles!!! That's not true. I experimented with finger picks during the 90th, using 'ditali' after dall'Oglio (who describes their use for the salterio) and IIRC Crawford Young did similar experiments. And I'm pretty shure that Lukas Henning has a whole episode on that topic in his me:mo YouTube channel. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Am Freitag, 10. Mai 2019 16:38 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: > > .. and no one ever plays Francesco with plectrum-thimbles!!! > That's not true. I experimented with finger picks during the 90th, using 'ditali' after dall'Oglio (who describes their use for the salterio) and IIRC Crawford Young did similar experiments. And I'm pretty shure that Lukas Henning has a whole episode on that topic in his me:mo YouTube channel. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
I don't understand this discussion. There are clearly arguments for both playing styles. .. and no one ever plays Francesco with plectrum-thimbles!!! On 10.05.19 16:27, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Lex, I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time - I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.' Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails is entirely up to you. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[4]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex, I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time - I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.' Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails is entirely up to you. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[4]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[5][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[6][11]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
I haven't been following this thread all that closely, so apologies if this has been mentioned. The quote about Corbetta says that he was unable to perform not only because he broke a nail, but that the breakage was notable because nails grow back slowly in the elderly. This implies that it was essential to his playing. While ripping a nail to the quick is indeed painful, it's a relatively minor injury from which one recovers fairly quickly. If C had broken a nail on the left hand or if he played with the right hand flesh, he could be back playing in no time. (A pro would probably just soldier on through the pain.) There would be no need for a broken nail to impede his performing at all unless it was needed as part his technique. There is also the engraving of Domenico Pellegrini, which clearly shows long nails on all of his right hand fingers, including the pinky: [1]https://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/news-photo/portrait-of-domenico-pe llegrini-italian-guitarist-engraving-news-photo/587490776 Chris [2]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 10, 2019, 9:35 AM, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[8]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[9]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[7]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[7]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesÃÃ la guitare et au luth Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesÃÃ la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee
A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Hi Martyn, Although not impossible, the text does not imply this. Ebert also notes: "with old folk these grow again very slowly." This does not seem to refer to a finger injury. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:09 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson <[8]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2][10]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃÆ Ã ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:[11]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[12]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links: 1. http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4.
[LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson <[8]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2][10]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃà à ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus >
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson <[8]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2][10]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃà à ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:[11]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[12]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links: 1. http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ 7. mailto:maan7...@yahoo.com 8. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Hidden
