[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings
Ciao, I have to thanks all the friends that has apreciated my efforts. It is very emotional, guys. I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW: you are right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros (I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost elettricity etc etc). Despite that it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back and so I do not complain. Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life (instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the economical support for all these tests). Yes, I am working hard on this project: it is one of my dream, maybe the bigger. The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my head for years and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass lute string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old sources that decribes the sound of the lute basses. Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol. Last point: I am totally in feel and I totally agree on what Matthew and others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a product deserves a good product. Sentence. This is why I am there to do my service: when I will have found the final solution I am there for the replaces. (I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal job; instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol. Vivi felice Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Matthew Daillie Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21 A: Lute List Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions will be much better. I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings
Ciao, I have to thanks all the friends that has apreciated my efforts. It is very emotional, guys. I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW: you are right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros (I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost elettricity etc etc). Despite that it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back and so I do not complain. Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life (instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the economical support for all these tests). Yes, I am working hard on this project: it is one of my dream, maybe the bigger. The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my head for years and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass lute string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old sources that decribes the sound of the lute basses. Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol. Last point: I am totally in feel and I totally agree on what Matthew and others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a product deserves a good product. Sentence. This is why I am there to do my service: when I will have found the final solution I am there for the replaces. (I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal job; instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol. Vivi felice Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Matthew Daillie Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21 A: Lute List Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions will be much better. I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings
Thanks Dan. 'The Lute in its historical reality' will be soon update; in fact, there are some new things: 1) a few time ago I was able to do a few experimental lute 1st string starting from a lamb- whole gut (see what wrotten Attyanasius Kirker, Rome 1650) . The sampleswere even on the whole length (not conical or tapered, I mean: see Capirola) ; the breacking point was around 36 Kg/mm2; the gauges, -after a slight hand-polishing was between- .39- .42 mm. The sound? Marvelous (isn't interesting?). 2) Vihuela unissons/octaves: I have to re-write some points because they were not well explained. Yes, I still think that the Vihuela 5th, 6th bases were with octaves, not in usissons. 3) 17 th c. lute basses (loaded): I have a few more historical informations to add to the section. 4) This is the most important update: at today, there are much more historical evidences concerning the use of wound strings on German d -minor lutes of 11 & 13 courses. The first is of 1716 (Thanks to Andreas Schleger researching). There are others: one of 1730's; one of 1740's; two of 1760's; one of 1790's. Unfortunately is not weritten if the wound strings were done on gut or silk cores. Take care Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Dan Winheld Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 17:54 A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche ; Lute List Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings Oh yes; here it is: "The lute in its historical reality" by Mimmo Peruffo http://ricerche.aquilacorde.com/wp-content/uploads/liuto-en.pdf Should be "required reading" by all lute students, players, & teachers. No matter how you end up stringing your instruments. Over 50 years of luting I have done my own small efforts; sacrifices, mistakes, and at this point have made the compromises (bargains with the devil too) necessary to continue as I head into the sunset, frets still fraying & strings still breaking. Dan On 8/31/2017 2:23 AM, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche wrote: > Ciao, > I have to thanks all the friends that has apreciated my efforts. It is very > emotional, guys. > I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW: you are > right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, > concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros > (I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost elettricity etc > etc). Despite that it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back > and so I do not complain. > Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life > (instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the > economical support for all these tests). > > Yes, I am working hard on this project: it is one of my dream, maybe the > bigger. The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my head for > years and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass > lute string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old > sources that decribes the sound of the lute basses. > Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol. > > Last point: I am totally in feel and I totally agree on what Matthew and > others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is > happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a > product deserves a good product. Sentence. > This is why I am there to do my service: when I will have found the final > solution I am there for the replaces. > (I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal > job; instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol. > Vivi felice > Mimmo > > -Messaggio originale- > Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di > Matthew Daillie > Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21 > A: Lute List > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings > > I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of > CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them > that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions > will be much better. > > I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of > euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent > recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them. > > Best, > Matthew > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings
Thanks Dan. 'The Lute in its historical reality' will be soon update; in fact, there are some new things: 1) Lute chantarelles: I was able to do a few experimental lute 1st string starting from a lamb- whole gut of 1to 3 months of life (see Attyanasius Kirker, Rome 1650) . The samples were even on their whole lenght (not conical or tapered, I mean: see Capirola 1517 ca.); the breacking point was around 36 Kg/mm2; the gauges, -after a slight hand-polishing- were between .39- .42 mm. The sound? Marvelous (isn't interesting?). 2) Vihuela unissons/octaves: I have to re-write some points because they were not well explained. Yes, I still think that the Vihuela 5th, 6th bases were with octaves, not in usissons. 3) 17 th c. lute basses (loaded): I have a few more historical informations to add to the section. 4) There are much more historical evidences concerning the use of wound strings on German d -minor lutes of 11 & 13 courses. The first is of 1716 (Thanks to Andreas Schleger researching). There are others: one of 1730's; one of 1740's; two of 1760's; one of 1790's. Unfortunately is not weritten if the wound strings were done on gut or silk cores. Take care Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Dan Winheld Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 17:54 A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche ; Lute List Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings Oh yes; here it is: "The lute in its historical reality" by Mimmo Peruffo http://ricerche.aquilacorde.com/wp-content/uploads/liuto-en.pdf Should be "required reading" by all lute students, players, & teachers. No matter how you end up stringing your instruments. Over 50 years of luting I have done my own small efforts; sacrifices, mistakes, and at this point have made the compromises (bargains with the devil too) necessary to continue as I head into the sunset, frets still fraying & strings still breaking. Dan On 8/31/2017 2:23 AM, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche wrote: > Ciao, > I have to thanks all the friends that has apreciated my efforts. It is very > emotional, guys. > I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW: you are > right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, > concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros > (I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost elettricity etc > etc). Despite that it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back > and so I do not complain. > Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life > (instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the > economical support for all these tests). > > Yes, I am working hard on this project: it is one of my dream, maybe the > bigger. The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my head for > years and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass > lute string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old > sources that decribes the sound of the lute basses. > Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol. > > Last point: I am totally in feel and I totally agree on what Matthew and > others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is > happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a > product deserves a good product. Sentence. > This is why I am there to do my service: when I will have found the final > solution I am there for the replaces. > (I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal > job; instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol. > Vivi felice > Mimmo > > -Messaggio originale- > Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di > Matthew Daillie > Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21 > A: Lute List > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings > > I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of > CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them > that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions > will be much better. > > I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of > euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent > recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them. > > Best, > Matthew > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings
Thanks Dan. 'The Lute in its historical reality' will be soon update; in fact, there are some new things: 1) Lute chantarelles: I was able to do a few experimental lute 1st string starting from a lamb- whole gut of 1to 3 months of life (see Attyanasius Kirker, Rome 1650) . The samples were even on their whole lenght (not conical or tapered, I mean: see Capirola 1517 ca.); the breacking point was around 36 Kg/mm2; the gauges, -after a slight hand-polishing- were between .39- .42 mm. The sound? Marvelous (isn't interesting?). 2) Vihuela unissons/octaves: I have to re-write some points because they were not well explained. Yes, I still think that the Vihuela 5th, 6th bases were with octaves, not in usissons. 3) 17 th c. lute basses (loaded): I have a few more historical informations to add to the section. 4) There are much more historical evidences concerning the use of wound strings on German d -minor lutes of 11 & 13 courses. The first is of 1716 (Thanks to Andreas Schleger researching). There are others: one of 1730's; one of 1740's; two of 1760's; one of 1790's. Unfortunately is not weritten if the wound strings were done on gut or silk cores. Take care Mimmo Inviato da iPhone > Il giorno 31 ago 2017, alle ore 18:20, Dan Winheld ha > scritto: > > And not to be forgotten, the great work of Dan Larson of "Gamut" Strings- > using real gut subjected to great research & creativity to bring us lute > strings- esp. those troublesome basses- that come closer to a "real" thing! > Dan > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fishing Line Renaissance
I would like to say something in matter. The nylon for music is not the same for fishing line, whose density is around 1.16. The density of the common musical nylon is 1.04 and it is a 6-12 polyamide. The du pont brand name is Tynex but it can be processed in Monofilaments everywhere. The density is not enough to define a sound quality. Another very important parameter is the elasticity or young modulus. It must be not too high, nor too low. The second parameter that nobody mentioned but it is actually the most important on the nylon family is the moisture absorbition. on the nylon for fishing line is very high. This explain why this kind of Nylon, whose density is higher than tynex is useless like musical string. Nylgut density is 1.35; pvdf (so called carbon ) is 1.78. These values are the correct ones. Take care Mimmo > Il giorno 31 ott 2017, alle ore 21:05, Tristan von Neumann > ha scritto: > > > Let's talk numbers here. > > Nylon is 1140 kg/m³, Durablend is 1150, gut is 1276 (Nylgut: 1260) and > Fluorocarbon is 1790. > (according to Karstilo's String Calculator) > > This means that Nylon/Durablend are *a lot* closer to actual gut or nylgut > that Fluorocarbon is. > How it feels and sounds is another discussion, but tension is calculated on > this basis, right? > > >> Am 31.10.2017 um 20:30 schrieb Dan Winheld: >> Actually, Nylon is a lot less dense than gut. To equal the tension of a .42 >> gut treble I need to go up to a .475 diameter in Nylon. And about .36 or .37 >> in Fluorocarbon, (which is why I almost never use it for trebles- getting >> like a bad steel string in sound & feel, although not of course in tension. >> Only of my instruments sounds/feels good with the Fluorocarbon treble). >> Looking forward to trying out the fishing line. Maye I will reel in some >> interesting sounds! >> Dan >>> On 10/31/2017 11:21 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: >>> It's much less dense than Fluorocarbon. >>> And only a little less dense than actual gut or nylgut. You will end up >>> with similar, just a bit thicker diameters than those. >>> Careful: They take a long time to settle (more than a week). >>> >>> Am 31.10.2017 um 19:09 schrieb Anthony Glass: So...is nylon more or less dense than fluorocarbon? I've never used nylon on a lute, only nylgut and PVF. Thanks! TG On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: Very cool discovery! Thanks. Could it be some form of the stuff referred to as "Carbon" or "Flourocarbon"- the KF (in gauges up to.91) made by Savarez? Dan On 10/31/2017 6:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Hello Lutist "cheapskates", I just got the information from the factory who produce KastKing Durablend fishing line (available in 0.4-1.4mm) - specific weight is 1150 kg/m ³ so it's a bit more dense than usual Nylon. So if there's anyone out there needing a cheap string replacement and don't like the Flourocarbon stuff, buy those- It's quite transparent though, but has a nice sound. Ask for sound samples if you're interested. Cheers, T* To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> > >
[LUTE] German lute tablature
Hello guys, I have found by chances this one: https://archive.org/details/urn-nbn-se-kb-digark-5441771 Is it already knows? Mimmo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] unwound Synthetic CD basses for long diapasons: make it sense?
Hello, Some are telling me to produce longer CD strings for the long theorbo diapasons. Actually, I have some strong doubts: the tonal balance with the fretted strings will became even worse; the sound, in general, will became too bright and 'modern'. The risk is that we will lost the sense of the 'fondamento', whose sound should imitate the human voice and be dark, not too brilliant. I know: many performers already uses long wound strings; at the same time we know that the extended necks were introduced to accomodate plain gut strings, not for denser gut/synthetic version of it or even wound strings. Actually, I would like to stay in the direction that can make of support of the traditional Lute/theorbo sound, not in the direction to destroy it making a sort of... elettric chitarrone (Lol). Maybe things can be different if we are specking of these special kind of invented short neck theorboes that are today whidely in use when one must take a fly. We know how hard is to fly with a standard theorbo. These instruments has only an option that work: wound strings. Making a longer CD for this kind of instruments can be maybe a good option? Maybe making them of 1,40 cms max so one cannot install them on the 'real' theorboes... Guys, which is you opinion? Mimmo Peruffo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the strings and the vibrating string lenght in mt, can predict when a string start to be 'not good enought'. I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not the denser versions (wound, loaded, gimped etc etc). Now, generally speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality and the octave is indispensable (and what about the Vihuela? Well in my opinion it had octaves on the 5 and 6 courses because the bass strings were those in use on Lutes). The Working Index of the 6th course is around 59 Hz/mt. So, if the last bass string of the extended neck exceed the value of 59 Hz/mt of Working Index an octave is necessary like (same working index of the 6th course) . At the modern 'baroque' pitch of 415 the last bass note is a GG of 46.25 Hz so: 59/46.25= 1.27 mt In practice we can say that, generally speacking (generally speacking, ok?) when the extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain gut start to be necessary the use of octaves. Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is still welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut strings the extended neck can be even a bit shorter than that. What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision, we are indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or bad is matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of the lutei s the right one (the 1st string is working close to the breakage or not?) . I have considered a pactical 'rule of thumb' having seen that the 6th course had octaves while the 5th is still matter of taste. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di sterling price Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27 A: Martin Shepherd ; Magnus Andersson ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be able to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based on the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might make it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it longer--but probably 120cm will do it. Thanks, Sterling __ From: Martin Shepherd To: Magnus Andersson ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Dear Magnus and All, A few thoughts: I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately found it puzzling. Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle. In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough string for the 3rd course. I wonder if that tells us something about the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm). If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at which the basses were made double. Can anyone enlighten us as to whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled? The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely irrelevant anyway). There is no reason to hypothesise an original state in which there were more than 6 courses. If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant theorboes. It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle remains. Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the beast. Best wishes, Martin On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote: >Dear collective wisdom, >I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding >proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned. >The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640, >today housed in Paris with the label E. 545. > [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/016179 9 >It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with >six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm, >and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the strings and the vibrating string lenght in mt, can predict when a string start to be 'not good enought'. I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not a denser versions (wound, loaded, gimped etc etc). Generally speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality, thus the octave is indispensable (Vihuela? In my opinion it had octaves on the 5 and 6 courses). The Working Index of a 6th course on a lute of 60cms at modern pitch is around 59 Hz/mt. So, if the last bass string of the extended neck is around the same value, an octave is necessary (we have the same working index of the 6th course) . Which is the scale were the working index is same of the 6 course of a lute ? At the modern 'baroque' pitch of 415 the last bass note is a GG of 46.25 Hz so: 59/46.25= 1.27 mt In practice we can maybe say that, generally speacking when the extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain gut start to be necessary the use of octaves. Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is still welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut strings the extended neck can be even a bit shorter than that. What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision, we are indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or bad is matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of the lutei s the right one (the 1st string is working close to the breakage or not?) . I have considered a pactical 'rule of thumb' having seen that the 6th course had octaves while the 5th is still matter of taste. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di sterling price Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27 A: Martin Shepherd <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Magnus Andersson <[4]magnusl...@gmail.com>; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be able to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based on the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might make it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it longer--but probably 120cm will do it. Thanks, Sterling __ From: Martin Shepherd <[6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> To: Magnus Andersson <[7]magnusl...@gmail.com>; "[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 Dear Magnus and All, A few thoughts: I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately found it puzzling. Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle. In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough string for the 3rd course. I wonder if that tells us something about the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm). If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at which the basses were made double. Can anyone enlighten us as to whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled? The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely irrelevant anyway). There is no reason to hypothesise an original state in which there were more than 6 courses. If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant theorboes. It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle remains. Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the beast. Best wishes, Martin On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote: Dear collective wisdom, I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding proper strings for a theorbo I ôve commissioned. Th
[LUTE] Re: String tech
(Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested ) Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). He wrote that there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. Well, many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt. Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come to the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. Instead, their lifetime was probably longer. Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what Ed wrote. However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very luky to obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge (beef) whose breaking index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2 months (Lynda Sayce, Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or superficial coatings were employed: they were just rectified by uncenterless machine and then oliled. This is what happend to me. I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar goal even with lamb gut. Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again: the raw gut ribbons must have some critical features that are not commonly available today. In fact I was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity. I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society. I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute 1st strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always skeptical on this subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well, a few months ago I was ables to make a 1st string starting from a single thin mongolian lamb gut and it was an amazing experience: I polished the string in gentle way by hand; the final gauge was .40, the string was even on its whole length; the breaking point was around 35 Kg/mm2. In practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The sound was so beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am fightring to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther gut do not meet the necessity for sausages so for the mongolian workers IT IS A WASTE. Crazy. In conclusion: there is space for all the stringmakers to done the job: researches and tests. Go ahead guys. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Leonard Williams Inviato: venerdì 19 gennaio 2018 23:25 A: Lute List Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm treble gut from Gamut. The strings may last a while, but fraying and the resulting compromised tone can occur early on. In some cases I can turn the (unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut or plucking zone. I would, nevertheless, prefer to change strings less often, but I love the sound of gut! Thanks, Leonard > On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > > Hello Leonard and others, > > This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings > for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung > lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed > effectiveness of making trebles last long. > > Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string > length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. > > If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you > do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller > diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a > baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience > failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, > nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay > in the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we > “should” be able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is > capable of, but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a > synthetic treble at g = 440 at let’s say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that > lute for instance should be at f, not g. > > My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble > lasts me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with heavy playing!! > On my 70.5 cm baroque lute, it only lasts a day or so unless I lower the > pitch to e. Th
[LUTE] Re: String tech
Well, in my experience (and those of other stringmakers of the past like one of the best italian stringmaker of 1930's:Berti, that wrote something in matter) diet, foods etc has no influence at all on the string berhaviours/quality. At the same time has no influence the season when you do the strings. The diet of sheeps was a leggend introduced by Mersenne that, incidently, was not a stringmaker but a gesuit just to justify the superior quality of the italian gut strings. The real 'secret' , if a secret exist, is how you process the gut: firstly the sequence of the chemical treatments, then the twisting ratio, then how you polish the dried strings and for the 'x factor' that I do not like so share because I am working in that direction having given me the results I have mentioned before. However, the 'x factor' is the real explanation even for Mersenne, surely not the sheep's diet. Tennis strings: Yes, fortunately I know how to make tennis strings because my teacker was, for 30 years, a Babolat and then Savarez gut stringmakers. So I have the recipe to make the VS tennis gut strings in production in 1980-2000 years. However, there is nothing of different/interesting: the most important thing is the use of beef serosa instead of sheep gut. Nothing to say in matter of the chemical treatments employed that, at the end of the day, are same of strings for music. Actually, the real difference is the final coating/vernishing. Mimmo Ps: I have problems with my keyboards so this is what I meant: ...Well, many of the surviving lutes and 5 course guitars (I mean those that are supposed in original conditions whose original pitch standard can be recognized. They are: 13 course german baroque lutes (tuned at the german Kamerton = 410-420 Hz, see Baron 1727), 5 course french guitars (tuned at the french pitch of 390 Hz) , some renaissanche Venetian lutes of 56-58 cms scale ( tuned probably at the 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch of 465 Hz about) ) has all their working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt... -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Tristan von Neumann Inviato: sabato 20 gennaio 2018 13:38 A: lutelist Net Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech Since gut is the intestines of a living, breathing being, it is certainly exposed to some environmental or dietary change. I am sure the key lies in the diet of the animals. Maybe they aren't allowed to graze any more on lush meadows so their gut crumbles... While looking for alternatives (I'm now all fishing line) I recently stumbled upon some obvious yet never mentioned alternative I have yet to try. People other than musicians are desperately trying to recreate a gut feel to their gear - tennis and badminton players! There are several brands of synthetic gut, though they only offer a narrow range of gauges - around 1mm for tennis and 0.6 for badminton. Mimmo, do you have insight in synthetic tennis gut? Maybe those manufacturers have a suitable approach for musical strings without knowing. Am 20.01.2018 um 13:13 schrieb spiffys84121: > Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings > always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first > used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is > there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps > for instance have always used gut strings. > > Sterling > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > Original message > From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche > Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00) > To: Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech > > (Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested > ) > Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only > source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). > He wrote that there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. > Well, many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not > modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: > the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian > lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their > working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt. > Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop > to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli > 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come to > the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same > breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. > Instead,
[LUTE] Re: Broeken nylgut string
The problem of breackage of the thinner Nylgut strings was caused by some inner extruder parameters. The extrusion thecnology is very complex, so the problemi s not just related to the common knowledges in matter of breaking index etc . On this fyeld I am learning everyday something of new. I would like to say that I have fixed this problem a few months ago, around the 2017 summer. Always I had breakages on my renaissance lute of 61 cms tuned in G. This intrumentis my tester because there is no rider on the 1st string than can give an help. They are 5 months that it it tuned in A without any problem. After a couple of months I have asked to our early music distribitors and, since now, the problem of breakages drastically dropped. Just to inform you guys. Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di Matthew Daillie Inviato: lunedì 19 febbraio 2018 11:39 A: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Wim Loos ; LuteNet list Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Broeken nylgut string I was presuming a pitch of 440 but Wim mentions neither pitch nor string length. > On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:22, Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > > A nylgut string of 0.44 on a lute of 60cmm string length at A415 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dying strings
Things are not that easy. Ed is right, however it is possible to dye the string just after polishing, and this is what the stringmakers that make harp strings usually do. This is done using a double component coloured varnish and using a sponge. Of course, in this case you obtain a varnished string. It is possible to do the same job on a unvarnished gut string it using an alcool soluble pigment and a few of cotton. Then put on the string a bit of almond oil when the string is well dried Ciao Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Per conto di Gamut Music Inviato: mercoledì 30 maggio 2018 16:28 A: Ed Durbrow Cc: lute list Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: dying strings Hi Ed, At Gamut strings, we sometimes dye them, but we do this when the gut is wet, before the string is twisted and constructed. After the string is twisted, dry and ready to be used, we do not color our strings because we would have to soak them to make them wet again, and this would probably destroy the string, we do not know. We would be interested to know if anyone knows how to successfully dye a gut string already constructed. Best, Ed Martin Gamut Music Customer Support On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 10:13 PM, Ed Durbrow <[1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote: Has anyone found a way that worked for them to dye gut strings? I have used a magic marker but it wears off. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch 3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow 4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Different arciliuti
Hello there, I would like to do a precisation in matter of the whole gut. Actually, what I have written in the past is that it is not possible to employ whole gut because the gauge that it is possible to obtain for example with 3 whole guts (i.e. the violin 1st) do not produce a gauge of about .70 mm, that was the standard of the past times, but a lot thicker: around .90 mm (tes, EU lamb gut there). I written also that a string made with whole gutis uneven and not very strong. I remember that Dan Larson of Gamut had the same expetience, if i am not in mistake. I have done many experiments and always failed. Since almost 8 months ago, I was of the opinion that the kind of foods has not influence on the raw gut quality. It was a mistake: recently I discovered that this is not true. Instead, I dicover that it is fondamental were the animal live and what it eat. No importance at all if the animal take medicines. The race has a few influence there. I tryed this conclusion: how it exist a special male spruce that came from the Panaveggio's forest that make the best sound (but... is it true?) so it exist a kind of gut that is the very best to make gut strings for music: it is thin enought to permit .70 mm gauge form 3 guts; very strong and even on its whole lenght. (no, the strings are not tapered, sorrry for Capiriola anf Galilei) Yes, the 1st lute string samples I have done are stronger than the standard: 290 Hz/mt of breacking index (agaist an average of 260 Hx/mt of those that came from strads) but at the same time they are affected by the fact that the producer, that unfortunately is not in EU, mix togheter lamb and goat intestine that have the same size. Last point: the gauge I obtain form 1 whole unsplit lamb has this range: .37-.44 mm unpolished. When they are a little polished the gauges drop to .33-34 to .40-42 mm. So interesting for the double course 1st!). The lifetime is, in the average, longer than the standard. All these things are very interesting: they fit quite well with the historical sources: Attanasio Kircher (roman stringamers employed 1 whole gut for lute 1st); Baron ( roman gut 1st can last till 4 weeks); the breacking index that is so high; and then that finally we can have the gauges for a double string 1st. Ah, there are no tapered stringssorry again to Capirola All the best Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Per conto di Andreas Schlegel Inviato: martedì 23 ottobre 2018 08:33 A: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Jörg Hilbert ; lute list Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Different arciliuti Dear Martyn In my opinion, your argument takes the wrong way: Our modern gut strings are more and more reconstructions of the old ones - but we don’t have the experience of the old string makers. I remember that Mimmo said some years ago that it’s impossible to make strings from whole guts. And now, he and at least another string maker (Davide Longhi of cordedrago) are able to do that. The modern evolution of reconstructing gut strings of the 16th, 17th and 18th century makes really good progress - but it seems that the quality is still not the same. In consequence our modern gut strings can’t be the judge on old instruments. But what we have: - string lengths of original instruments - pitch (more or less accurate, I agree) >From these starting points, we have to calculate and to try. If we take the Roman a1 with 382 Hz, the real breaking point with 263 Hz*m is at 77.4 cm, the practical breaking point (one halftone below) is at 73.1 cm. A while ago, Mimmo surprised also this list with the news that he was able to make chanterelles with more than 270 Hz*m breaking point. It seems that the old Roman strings were of very high quality. So it seems not impossible to have an archlute with a chanterelle in g1 (340 Hz) with a string length of 73 cm. I agree that such high quality strings were not available for all times at all places in Europe. I’m speaking from Roman archlutes in the time of Corelli. When the pitch was higher or the string quality poor, instruments have to be shortened - see the beautiful, but shortened Harz in Edinburgh with 6x2 = 67.3 / 8x1 = 143.8 - side by side with the not shortened Rotondi with 6x2 = 73 cm / 8x1 = 162 cm. The not shortened Harz in Geneva has 1x1 + 5x2 = 73.0 / 8x1 = 155 cm. Of course, with „normal“ gut strings we have a problem nowadays. The string makers have to solve this problem, because instruments existed. My hypothesis is: Arciliuti were built with the maximal possible string length because the chanterelle which is working close to the breaking point sounds very bright and therefore this bright sound cuts the sound of the orchestra - in combination with the thumb out technique and little finger behind the bridge. And tiorbe made a compromise between handling and the biggest possible string length - normally at least 87 cm. All the best, Andreas > Am 22.10.2018 um 17:19 s
[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Hello, This si really a good idea. I have this contribute that, in my opinion, the best painting concerning Gallichon/Mandora (I am doing article in matter of a possible historical string setup) https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=120&s=-1&c=683 Mimmo Peruffo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Per conto di Braig, Eugene Inviato: giovedì 21 novembre 2019 19:32 A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website I look forward to watching the site develop. Thank you, Rainer. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Lute-List, I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon. This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s), its history, where it has been played, composers, and, and, and.but also information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and last but not least a download page for lots of pieces. Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't be afraid! I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring menuets there. Amongst all the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in copy of course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much demanding, often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high quality in baroque or gallant style. During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces and suites, and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably other mandora players did the same. So why not putting together the whole mandora wisdom and repertoire and collect it in the web, downloadable for free and open to all. That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit. Therefore I would like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there are some) to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever might be of interest. You can have a look to this very basic website with just an index-page, a completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is obligatory in Germany). The web adress is: www.gallichon.de But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see which themes I have integrated until now. But that's just work in progress, and to be filled with real information soon. If you have any suggestion about what else should be there, if you have any material to share, don't hesitate to contact me. The website shall be in english and german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a native speaker. Any help in transforming my poor english into something closer to good english is welcome. Let's try it. Rainer -- __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Hops sorry. Here is the right one: https://www.hampel-auctions.com/o/Jacopo-Amigoni-1682-Venedig-1752-Madrid-zug.html?a=120&s=-1&id=1041&acl=1200604&g=Gemaelde-16-18-Jhdt&fbclid=IwAR39VKPpCAQJYqk61gx-oBoY0ym94Z05ZIK01ZeIIkRZLpx6RgHfglzfpJc Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Per conto di Braig, Eugene Inviato: giovedì 21 novembre 2019 19:32 A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website I look forward to watching the site develop. Thank you, Rainer. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Lute-List, I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon. This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s), its history, where it has been played, composers, and, and, and.but also information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and last but not least a download page for lots of pieces. Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't be afraid! I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring menuets there. Amongst all the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in copy of course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much demanding, often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high quality in baroque or gallant style. During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces and suites, and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably other mandora players did the same. So why not putting together the whole mandora wisdom and repertoire and collect it in the web, downloadable for free and open to all. That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit. Therefore I would like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there are some) to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever might be of interest. You can have a look to this very basic website with just an index-page, a completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is obligatory in Germany). The web adress is: www.gallichon.de But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see which themes I have integrated until now. But that's just work in progress, and to be filled with real information soon. If you have any suggestion about what else should be there, if you have any material to share, don't hesitate to contact me. The website shall be in english and german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a native speaker. Any help in transforming my poor english into something closer to good english is welcome. Let's try it. Rainer -- __ SEICENTO-Notenversand Rainer Luckhardt Holbeinstrasse 12 D-79312 Emmendingen Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803 Internet: www.seicentomusic.de VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Hi Martyn, thank you very much to inform me in matter. The open question about this instrument is still today not totally solved. So, I am doing my job concerning the strings only around the instrument that was in use in Germany around 1740-90 with 6 course (Niggel types) or even more (for example Wenger models). I agree with you that a such instrument sould be quite loud and competitive to the 7 bass viol (there are some historical sources that mention this thing). The problem is all round the use of the overspan strings, but only those thatb employ silk in the cores (those with gut cores are less loud) But the first mention of silk cores (5 course guitars come form Guerrero (Spain 1760's) who wrote that in Spain they use wound silk wound strings because they are louder than the traditional wound strings with gut cores. Then there is Corrette that suggest the use of silk cores. At today the only mention od possible silk cores come form John Playford in 1664 but Both T Mace and Talbot do not mentioned them at all. Need more investigations Ciao Mimmo Da: Martyn Hodgson Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 10:31 A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche ; Lute List Oggetto: Fw: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Mimmo, Sorry, in my earlier I gave the wrong year for the Edlinger calchedon: - it should be 1728 not 1729 (the latter is the year Edlinger died). The instrument is part of the collection in the Narodnì Museum, Prague. Here's a link to a Czech language magazine site with a pic. [1]https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved*hUKEwi4ydqF-__ lAhWu34UKHXUXBB0QjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhudebnirozhledy.scena.cz% 2Fwww%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dclanek%26id_clanku%3D2519&psig=AOvVaw3UC3UL_ IcQLJPxLR8YZdod&ust74585668331802 regards Martyn - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> To: Braig, Eugene <[3]brai...@osu.edu>; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[6]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> Sent: Friday, 22 November 2019, 12:34:24 GMT Subject: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Hello Mimmo, By coincidence I've also been developing a paper on early gallichon stringing for some time now, but have made but poor progress - mainly due to lack of suitable iconography showing such details in enough detail to draw definitive conclusions. My own thesis is that the very earliest calchedons/gallichons, were developed in Bohemia and northern Austrian lands in the 1660s and made use of the newly invented overwound strings to give a robust bass down to contabass ,A ( ie almost as low as the theorbo lowest bass) and so produce an easily manageable instrument able to play chromatically in the lowest register. The Edlinger of 1729 is, I think, a particularly good example of the fully developed large continuo form of the instrument (though I think there may have been some modifications to the finial of the pegbox). This instrument is is mentioned in the recent FoMRHI paper (link below) as is also the possible relationships to the Italian instrument briefly touched on in my earlier. Much food for thought [1][7]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-13 1/C omm%202037.pdf regards Martyn On Friday, 22 November 2019, 10:08:17 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[8]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote: Hello, This si really a good idea. I have this contribute that, in my opinion, the best painting concerning Gallichon/Mandora (I am doing article in matter of a possible historical string setup) [2][9]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a0 &s=-1&ch3 Mimmo Peruffo -Messaggio originale- Da: [3][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[4][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Braig, Eugene Inviato: giovedì 21 novembre 2019 19:32 A: [5][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website I look forward to watching the site develop. Thank you, Rainer. Eugene -Original Message- From: [6][13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[7][14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM To: [8][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website Dear Lute-List, I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallic
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
Grazie Martyn, However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the evidence of the use of silk wound strings Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german lutes -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me- then for 5 course guitar)? Close or open wound types does not matter now. Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive tests with silk wound strings for the 11 and 13 course d minor lute basses: they does not work properly (I have not space here to explain why, but there are strong both acoustical and technical problems that cannot be solved) while they work in excellent way in different situations, expecially if there are single strings and/or if the tension has a certain higher level like I thinks that it was in use on these kind of instruments (no historical evidences, just my opinion having seen the presence of fan bracing, the thick soundboards on some surviving in strument and the description of the loud bass sonority found in old sources). The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example: it employed silk wound strings Mace is the best source ever in matter of lute strings and Talbot is still today one of the best source of the very begginning od the XVIII c. but there is a but: they are both english. I do not thinks/remember if this intrument was in use also in England: maybe Mace & Talbot were not aware of the existence of this type of instrument? Who know. They do not mentioned for example the d minor lutes and the 5 course guitars. Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book. Facts are facts and the evidence of wound strings realized gut cores for the 11 course lutes & guitars is compelling. The 1760 guitar sources are here very clear: when they describes for the first time silk wound strings they explained the things in a way that is clear that they are introducing something of new and better. However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having more historical evidences Thanks for the contribute. Ciao Da: Martyn Hodgson Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 11:20 A: Lute List ; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche Oggetto: Re: R: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Thanks Mimmo, Regarding silk cores for overwound strings, I agree that they are louder and more focused than those with just plain gut cores. However, whilst Mace and Talbot don't mention such strings, I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the well known comment by Playford (a very significant and well established publisher and promoter) that wound strings on silk cores were known, and indeed preferred, at the time. And so if in England, which had just undergone revolutionary wars etc, how much more in continental Europe and in particular areas with a history of fine wire drawing and string manufacture. In short, I see no reason to suppose that overwound strings (and those on silk too) were not becoming known in many parts of Europe by the second half of the seventeenth century (for such instruments as the calchedon as while as the bass viol). But, as we agree, more work is clearly required Finally, it is relevant that the large continuo calchedon seems to have often (generally?) employed single strings: so the diameter of overwinding wire can be quite substantial (as on the large bass viol employed by Staine Colombe et als at around this time). regards, Martyn On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 09:43:48 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[1]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote: Hi Martyn, thank you very much to inform me in matter. The open question about this instrument is still today not totally solved. So, I am doing my job concerning the strings only around the instrument that was in use in Germany around 1740-90 with 6 course (Niggel types) or even more (for example Wenger models). I agree with you that a such instrument sould be quite loud and competitive to the 7 bass viol (there are some historical sources that mention this thing). The problem is all round the use of the overspan strings, but only those thatb employ silk in the cores (those with gut cores are less loud) But the first mention of silk cores (5 course guitars come form Guerrero (Spain 1760's) who wrote that in Spain they use wound silk wound strings because they are louder than the traditional wound strings with gut cores. Then there is Corrette that suggest the use of silk cores. At today the only mention od possible silk cores come form John Playford in 1664 but Both T Mace and Talbot do not mentioned them at all. Need more investigations
[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website
6 course spanish guitar wound strings: yes, there is a spanish source that is Juan Vargas Y Guzman of 1773 that mentioned that this instrument has wound strings in the 4th, 5th and 6th courses (i.e. entorchados). It is not sauid that are silk wound but we are in 1773, when the silk strings were well introduced on the 6 course mandolin, on the 5 course/5 single string guitar, on the very recent 6 string guitar. It is written that the tickness of the 4th is 2/3 thick than the 2nd that it is plain gut. The 3rd has the same gauge of a violin 2nd (in those times around .90-95 mm gauge) Two years ago I had the chance to take the measures of a big batch of survived original strings for 6 course Paget guitar inside a newspaper dated 1812 in Genevre: the 3rd ranged form .91 up to .97 mm while the 4,5,6 were silk wound strings. Well, I have done a replica of these wound strings: the 5 and 6th are exaclty the ones for the 4,5th basses of 6 string guitar. The same strings 4 and 5 were perfexct for a Niggel Gallichion like 5th and 6th. The tension was around 3.6 Kg at 415 Hz pitch standard. This is my experience. In the painting of the link I sent you and in the list strings 5 and 6 are wound ansds with octaves. Silk wound I think Mimmo -Messaggio originale- Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Per conto di Martyn Hodgson Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 13:10 A: Lute List ; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche ; Wayne Lute ; Wayne Cripps Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website Ah - interpolation in bold doesn't seem to work here so I'll cut and paste below. (To Wayne - I think you've explained this before so excuse me for being a bit dim: but can't the original paragraph spacings and even font types be preserved in these threads? - it makes it so much easier to converse) MP: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only / MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into the eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic basses, etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of wire required for thin double strung courses may have also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses. MP The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example: it employed silk wound strings / Indeed, from when? Do we know? I've assumed wound basses they came in with the Spanish sixth course around 1760/70 but have no direct evidence for such an date./ MH Mace mentions the Dm tuning and even gives a set of Lessons in it MM 181-186 Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book./ MH I wonder too - but perhaps Playford was following a new technology only recently imported from Europe? The Commonwealth etc reduced many continental links until just after the Interregnum. The St Colombe use of viol wound also seems fairly persuasive. MH Yes, I agree the links between late mandora and late 5 eighteenth century 5/6 course guitars suggests a degree of interchange of knowledge/experience by players (S Moliotor's notes about some Viennese mandora player stringing his instrument with single strings are particularly compelling). However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having more historical evidences/ MH Yes - I again agree On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:47:30 GMT, Martyn Hodgson wrote: And thank you too Mimmo, I'll interpolate my responses in bold italic below if I may regards Martyn On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:05:18 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <[1]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote: Grazie Martyn, However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the evidence of the use of silk wound strings Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder: why between 1670 were mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german lutes -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me- then for 5 course guitar)? MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into the eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic basses, etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of wire required for thin double strung courses may have also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses. Close or open wound types does not matter now. Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive tests with silk wo