[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
> From: Stuart Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 20:02:15 +0100 > To: Sean Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tinctoris > The music in Banks' book would sound very different with the veiled, > smokey sounds of viols compared to the ethereal plink of lutes. and this from earlier . . . > I've just got hold of Woodfield's book, 'The Early History of the > Viol' (1984). Woodfield says that, by the mid-1480s the vihuela...'with > its long neck' ...was firmly established. He gives several illustrations > of long-necked instruments. I've mislaid my copy of 'Lute News' where > Jon Banks outlines his case that some music in the Segovia MS and > elsewhere, is for lute trio but I'm sure he suggested that the music was > for lute - OR - for similar plucked instruments. > > A plucked instrument with a long neck offers the possibility (musical > and/or purely theatrical) of playing in different ranges of it. Maybe > Spinacino was emulating the practice of viola/vihuela players? I just thought I'd mention that pretty much every viol CD I have has at least one example, one piece or passage, of _plucked_ viols. The sound (on bass viols at least), is most reminiscent of a plucked _harp_ , more so than the sound of either a plucked lute or vihuela/viola/guitar. Very beautiful in any event, and appears to have been common enough, plucking that is. So, oddly enough, a consort of viols plucking together might sound more like a "harp consort" than anything else. So I guess any number of different atmospheres and dramatically different results might be had depending on which instrument you're plucking, and then also whether you're plucking or bowing -- but all still and potentially from a single same piece of entabulated lute-(family) music, or part-music of any kind arranged for lutes of any kind (plucked or bowed). Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tinctoris
> From: Stuart Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 20:02:15 +0100 > To: Sean Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tinctoris > > Anyway, Philip > Thorby introduced some viol music from 1502 - the same period of the > Banks' collection of pieces. So, according to Thorby, viol consorts were > around then. here's one such, consort of four, Francesco Francia c.1500, Italy. http://www.TheCipher.com/violsFrancescoFrancia_c1500.jpg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?
- Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? > At 06:12 PM 12/6/2005, Roger E. Blumberg wrote: > >I wasn't aware of all the other early references to viheula, nor that the > >word "lira" was ever used to refer to guitar-like instruments. I'd like to > >know more about that later item in particular, if you or someone would. > > > I don't know if you've explored them yet or not, and this may be a total > sidetrack to the kind of info you're seeking, but you might want to look > into "lyre-guitar", Roger. If you're registered, a note to > or <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> might prove > fruitful. The golden era for calling guitar-like things (that weren't > quite shaped like guitars) names akin to "lyre" was the late classical > era. Much music of the early 1800s was published for "guitar or > lyre." Frankly, I find such things a little unwieldy, but not quite as bad > as the mandolyra of the Calace or Turturo shop. > > Best, > Eugene > Hi Eugene; Ya, those I've seen, even the 60's DanElectro Long-Horn was one of those in disguise, retro. I thought and suspect that maybe Antonio was referring more to the mid centuries, usage and terminology back then, somewhere. Thanks for the pointer. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?
- Original Message - From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? > Dear Roger, > > Since you acknowledge that you are merely playing > Devil's advocate I shant worry too much about certain > of the things you mention. I should like to point out, > however, that there are more Spanish Medieval sources > that mention the vihuela, besides some varieties of > guitar about which we do not have a clear knowledge > (sarracenica, morisca, latina, etc.). The point is > that I believe that none of these sources intends to > name a small five-course instrument fashioned out of > an armadillo shell with reentrant tuning and played by > strumming. Likewise, even if we call (as we still do) > the guitar as a "vihuela" or "lira", we are aware that > it is a poetic license and no one (at least in Mexico) > would claim that "vihuela" is the proper and authentic > name for the instrument. While it is true that > Medieval vihuelas (bowed and plucked) do appear in > literature and iconography, this fact in itself does > not warrant extending the usage to other string > instruments; otherwise why would they be so carefull > to distinguish between "citola", "guitarra", "laud", > and "vihuela" in their writings? Remember the famous > list in the _Libro de Buen Amor_ you mention. > > With best wishes, > Antonio > Hi Antonio; Believe it or not, we're largely in agreement. I know it was stretching it a bit to literally call a charango a vihuela, but I still think the family or/and conceptual relationship exists somewhere in the past, so there's enough of a leg to stand on for argument's sake, and still without having to insist or demand that the name should and must be accepted as perfectly interchangeable and as a matter of routine. I wasn't aware of all the other early references to viheula, nor that the word "lira" was ever used to refer to guitar-like instruments. I'd like to know more about that later item in particular, if you or someone would. I hope I didn't insult anyone with my remarks re a possible atmosphere or mindset of elitism surrounding certain types of lutes and certain types of vihuela. That just seems to be a general impression and observation I've gathered over the years, and not even necessarily from the lute-list. It just seems to be there, no? Guitars of various types and vintage often seem to get poo-pooed, while others, and other kinds of lutes, are elevated and esteemed, singled out as having greater stature and standing than others, greater value. There seems to be a hierarchy, like it or not, literally voiced or not, and that, left unchecked and unquestioned, seems troubling to me. The simplest of music, and simplest of people, can often move me more deeply that all the high falutin and pretentious stuff in the world. All music-makers matter, they feel just as deeply. I'm sure everyone would agree. Music makers are usually pretty sensitive people, so feelings can get hurt. I do appreciate everyone's politeness, and I hope to return it. Sometimes I shoot from the hip, improvise freely, emphatically, when I write, because that's what I'm feeling at the moment. I can be just as sweet too though, I think you'll find, as well as taking the open, vulnerable, and submissive posture, but sincerely, because I certainly don't know it all, and I do love to learn. I hope that's what they call balance, in the long run? ;') I usually try to shoot any arrows I might have at the "big boys" when I can, and that's a kind of politeness in disguise, if that makes any sense. And I'm not even sure exactly why I'm saying that right now, I'm winging it, and being honest ;') Siblings, that's what it's about I guess, family. Ya, that's the ticket. Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?
- Original Message - From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" Cc: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? > > > >>That very well may be, but Bill's quest is not about that, He simply wants > >>to play medieval music on his charango AND be authentic. > >>As we say in Russian, he wants to "mangiare il pesce, ma non pagare col > >>culo". > >>Not possible, sorry. > >>RT > >> > > > > > >I'd have to agree, that would be hard to pull off. A four course gittern or > >lute would save everyone a lot of headaches. Or even something based on the > >Salamanca viola -- if he wants something more vihuela-esque yet still > >medieval (14th century, presumably). http://tinyurl.com/ahlcp > > > >Roger > > > If that's what he's looking for, why not point him this way : > > http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citole.html > > ? > > Looks medieval enough to me and there are plenty of process photos to > aid with assembly. > > Best of all, since it's carved out of a solid block of wood, it wouldn't > require a bending iron or some of the other "specialist tools" that are > normally necessary to produce an instrument. > > GB > you're right -- and I did, a couple days ago. People are also routinely tuning these in 4ths and no-one seems to be complaining about authenticity. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? > > The implications of this seem clear to me. Calling charango a vihuela, and > > recognizing it as being in the vihuela/guitarra family, a descendant and > > offspring of, as it clearly is, seems fair game. There is more than enough > > precedence, and in the lands and by the peoples who first gave us both the > > term and class of instrument, the heritage. > That very well may be, but Bill's quest is not about that, He simply wants > to play medieval music on his charango AND be authentic. > As we say in Russian, he wants to "mangiare il pesce, ma non pagare col > culo". > Not possible, sorry. > RT I'd have to agree, that would be hard to pull off. A four course gittern or lute would save everyone a lot of headaches. Or even something based on the Salamanca viola -- if he wants something more vihuela-esque yet still medieval (14th century, presumably). http://tinyurl.com/ahlcp Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?
- Original Message - From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 9:01 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? >> Out of curiosity, do you (or anyone here) know approximately when the word >> vihuela dropped completely out of usage and consciousness in Spain, and then >> also in the New World lands? Did it ever, in fact? Current Mexican Mariachi >> bands employ a 5 course Vihuela (their name) but I think that tradition >> dates back to the early 1900's (only). Is there a few hundred year span and >> gap where the word essentially disappears from usage and application to >> guitar-like instruments? >> >> Roger >> > Dear Eugene, > > The etymology of vihuela, according to Joan Corominas, > author of the most reliable etymological dictionary of > Spanish, runs more or less along these lines (I am > quoting from memory): > > It comes, in the first instance from the Latin "fides" > (string) which later underwent various transformations > as "fidicula", "vitula", "viula", and finally > "vihuela" (I may have skipped some stages, I can't > remember just now). > > Later on, after the sixteenth century, the term was > also adopted to name the "guitarra española" (or > baroque guitar), as shown by a goodly number of > sources which use both terms interchangeably. > Thereafter the usage became even more free, but it was > principally associated with the guitar -in whatever > manifestation- and instruments of this family. Thus > you have a 19th century Argentinian gaucho in _Martin > Fierro: stating that "aqui me pongo a cantar, al > compás de mi vihuela", or 19th, 20th and 21st-century > mariachy bands in Mexico happily strumming a "vihuela" > that seems more related to a chitarra battente. > Incidentally, "lira" has undergone a similar process, > at least in Mexico. > > With best wishes, > Antonio > Antonio; this is what I suspected, that the term has been applied to guitar-like instruments non-stop since the late 15th century and even earlier (14th century, 1350, Juan Ruiz, (Archpriest of Hita), Spanish/Castilian, in his "Libro de buen amor" (The Book of Good Love), mentioning vihuela de arco and vihuela de penola). So anyone wanting to now limit the term solely to the early 16th century Spanish 6 courser, will have to take their argument to the last 500 years of Spanish nationals who've used the term freely, plus the nationals of all the New World lands, the Caribbean, Central and South America. People will have to convince _them_ that they had no right to use the word, and that they must repent for the blasphemy and disrespect shown to their vihuelista ancestors and their one and only "true" vihuela. The implications of this seem clear to me. Calling charango a vihuela, and recognizing it as being in the vihuela/guitarra family, a descendant and offspring of, as it clearly is, seems fair game. There is more than enough precedence, and in the lands and by the peoples who first gave us both the term and class of instrument, the heritage. Again, I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. I understand there is a particular moment in history and a particular repertory that people are wanting to distinguish and attach the term vihuela to (exclusively) as a convenient label and communications aid. Right or wrong, good or bad, appropriate or not, the waters of usage have already been long muddied. That is the real and true "tradition" of the matter. It's pretty hard trying to rewrite the record, wipe the slate clean and start over, at this point in the evolution of things, this late date. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
- Original Message - From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 6:58 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation > I don't think you're quite getting my point, Roger. I don't perceive six as any kind of magic number to make a chordophone player a "real man"; I'm perfectly happy with as few as four, and, if I could score a bass colascione, I would happily enjoy three. My point is that an instrument type, in all its diverse conceptualizations in all the heads of their builders and makers, are named whatever people are calling them. This isn't Linnean systematics, so any conceptual heritage to any instrument type is not necessaruly relevant in their naming. > > It doesn't matter if there is a direct line between the diverse instruments pictured as "vihuela" in the 16th c. and the charango; there is nothing like genetic material and Darwinian evolution preserving the essence of 16th-c. vihuela in modern derivatives. By the time things called "charango" were being built, the things called "vihuela" in the 16th c. had been gone from the memories of musicians for generations. When the thing called "vihuela" in 16th-c. Spain was active, nothing quite exactly like the modern charango was in use, even if the differences between charango and those old things were relatively trivial. Of course, the name "vihuela" has been active since, having been absorbed by guitar-like things used in folk musics, but those modern vihuelas are not the same instrument type as that used in the 16th c, just as my 6-string guitars are not the same instrument type as the guitars of the 16th or 17th c. > > I don't have anything against all the diverse instruments of the world, and I take no issue with Bach being played by the bayan or the de Murcia fandango being played on the charango if the performer can make it happen and is sincere. ...But playing Bach on a bayan doesn not make a bayan a pipe organ in spite of the keyboard. I don't like the renaming of an instrument type in disregard of any names with precedent. I'm particularly close to instruments named things like "mandolin", "mandolino", "armandolino", etc. The thing Vivaldi, Handel, or Scarlatti would have recognized as "mandolino" was misunderstood for centuries after it fell into disuse, renamed things like "mandore" or "pandourina" by modern curators because it didn't look like the things they knew as "mandolin." This had the unfortunate side effect of isolating a rich tradition and body of 18th-c. repertoire from the instrument type for which it was intended. I simply regard renaming perfectly good, existing > instrument types without precedent a bad policy, regardless of their conceptual ancestry. > > Best, > Eugene > Out of curiosity, do you (or anyone here) know approximately when the word vihuela dropped completely out of usage and consciousness in Spain, and then also in the New World lands? Did it ever, in fact? Current Mexican Mariachi bands employ a 5 course Vihuela (their name) but I think that tradition dates back to the early 1900's (only). Is there a few hundred year span and gap where the word essentially disappears from usage and application to guitar-like instruments? Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
- Original Message - From: "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lutelist" Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation > > Hi Bruno, > > Thanks for the note! I had no idea. I've recently started working w/ a > med/ren group and will approach the piper w/ the idea. A Ttun Ttun? > Lovely onomotopeia --like, dare I say it, "charango". ;^) > > I worked my way through college at a small but very good french > restaurant and served quite a bit of your sauce. > > I will definitely check out your links! > > all the best, > Sean > here's another picture Sean, also with pipe. http://tinyurl.com/aw3pf I don't have an ID for it, but 1480-1510 feels about right to me. The coloration (at least) reminds me a little of Melozzo da Forli and his series of angel musicians, but I'm fairly certain this isn't him. The off-shoulder draping and bowed knots are red-flagging me for some reason though, like maybe it's later than it at first appears. So maybe I should just play it safe and leave it at "no ID" ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
- Original Message - From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation > - Original Message - > From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Saturday, December 3, 2005 4:26 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation > > > Not to worry, taking charango under the wing will not break our > > back ;') > > ..And I sincerely doubt anybody would slight you for it because it is as cool an instrument as any other. However, trying to impose a name for it on everybody else of the world, a name with absolutely no precedent in reference to some speculated conceptual heritage that has had absolutely nothing to do with the mindset of the players and builders of the instrument for generations, strikes me as a little silly, a lot disrespectful, and quite inhibitory to communication with other people familiar with the vocabulary. > > Eugene > I think we're in bigger trouble when "mindset" becomes the key definer of an instrument and family. There is no single mindset that could ever define any musical instrument. Then again, elitism, exclusivity, and snobbery, could be a "mindset" that's currently part and parcel of the allowed definition of what vihuela were and are, and even what lutes were and are, for that matter. There's all kinds of mindsets that are disrespectful and not representative of the persons, places, and times, people would like to believe they currently represent and speak for. What seems silly to me is the notion that one additional course, the 6th, is the only thing that can make you "a man", and a "real" vihuela player. The term "vihuela" was in use for hundreds of years before that 6 course lute-tuned slab-constructed plucker showed up. The definition even then changed many times and applied to many instruments, plucked, plectrumed, and bowed, any number of strings, any number of tunings, many styles of playing. Yet now, today, some people seem to feel they have the market cornered on the word, and concept, some single organological definition, configuration, number of decades in one single century, and now even one "mindset". I think there might be a couple of historical figures who would question who it is you (the collective) think you're representing and protecting from disrespectful and inaccurate representations, who's name you're using in vain. A similar kind of snobbery exists in people who would define and reserve the word "musician" only for people who read music. One style, one way, one mindset, one path, for all, that's the ticket. Fall in line, get with the program. I have no burning need to call charango a vihuela. I won't loose any sleep over it one way or the other. Bill has the right to see all the iconography he wants, and to make whatever connections he believes he sees. We're all prone to seeing and hearing what we want to see and hear, and we all apply a different set of filters. And new filters sometimes reveal the darnedest things, by golly. New adaptations, change, _is_ respectful of tradition, and does accurately reflect history. I think all the New World adaptations of original model vihuela-guitars is admirable, commendable, worthy of respect, and inclusion, in that big diverse family of ours. Get over yourselves, comes to mind, for some reason. I do respect what most people are trying to do here, on this list, generally, whatever kind of historical lute they fancy focusing their attention on, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 13 courses, bowl-back or flat back, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, or 18th century, seven frets or ten, plucked, plectrumed, or bowed. Right there, that should tell you there is no one way, no one mind-set, no one configuration or style. On one hand, vihuelas of any kind seem to be almost an unwelcomed topic here, grudgingly tolerated, and must be spun-off to a separate and segregated other group and list. And on the other, some are now feeling the need to take up the torch in defense of vihuela, or at least of some three or four decade incarnation of vihuela, an incarnation they might see fit to recognize as being potentially worthy of their consideration and inclusion, yet still a "lesser lute", even at 6 courses -- that apparently magical number where "respect" kicks in, if you're lucky ;'). I'm not looking to make any enemies here, nor insult anyone, nor anyone's love of trying to recreate more authentic period-bubbles to live in and explore. I enjo
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
- Original Message - From: "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lutelist" Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 11:05 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation > > Roger, > > Thanks for putting these out for us! Hi Sean, thanks. > Concerning: > http://www.thecipher.com/braccio- > viol_MadreDeDeusRetable_early16th_deta.jpg > > Does this count as a trio or a quartet? (a quintet if the closest > person is singing?) I believe there's actually more instruments and players in the original full scene, fresco. > The idea of a pipe-and-drum player is well known > but I hadn't heard of this combo. ya, it is interesting. > Might that be a 3 or 4 string drone > harp that he's playing --w/ a stick? I guess so, I don't know what it's proper name is. I've seen a few though, and also played with a stick. Stick-fiddle's too (no bow, a stick). > "There was little or no standardization in _any_ > string instrument plucked or bowed. All it needs is strings, chromatic > frets, some kind of resonator body, and the tuning of your choice." > > Evidently early citterns weren't caught up in that need for chromatic > fretting: > http://www.theaterofmusic.com/cittern/old/cittern7/cittern7.html so > there's one less restriction on what they could or wouldn't do. They went both ways, chromatic and diatonic. Here's two chromatics. http://www.thecipher.com/cittern1550_citaroedus_det.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/cittern1570_girolamo-virch_det.jpg This one below is the oldest true cittern icon I know of, 1520, notice it's two center pegs. I'm not sure if this one is diatonic or chromatic though. http://tinyurl.com/7rjp7 http://www.thecipher.com/vihuela-or-cittern_GirolamoDaiLibri_ChurchStGeorgio _VeronaItaly_c1520_deta.jpg Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation > dear roger - > > there was a charango up for auction on german ebay > recently with the same waist configuration as a viola > - sort of an oval shape with two bites taken out of > either side, as opposed to the smoother, figure 8, > peanut shape you mention. i should have bought it. > > just had a look at your photos - sort of a family > album, really - and recognised the family resemblance > in all. i agree with you entirely on what constitutes > a vihuela. i don't know how much you're going to > enjoy being associated with the charango, however. i > would hate to see your beautiful site being trashed > simply because you acknowledge it - the charango - as > being part of the family. > > i have no idea how many of the others on the list will > look at the photos but i don't think it will change > many minds - alas. similarities between what is > illustrated there and what i'm intermittently > strumming as i type, will simply not be accepted. i > mean, will not be. your point about modern, assembly > line perceptions of individual historical instruments > is entirely accurate. i don't mean this in any way to > be derogatory but for most of our friends on the list, > superficial consideration - what appears on top - > matters most. > > somewhere on a charango site i've seen a simplified > line drawing of the various shapes in which charangos > are to be found. the peanut shape is prominent now > but historically they came in a wide variety of shapes > as well - triangular, rectangular, almond shaped and > all. if i come across it i'll send it along - i'm > sure you'll be able to match most of them up with the > instruments illustrated in your gallery. > > many thanks, many thanks - bill > > ps - re: your incredible archive of vihuela photos ... > did you ever collect baseball cards? is that where it > all started? ... Hi Bill; Thanks, glad you found them useful. [And do send me that page of charango shapes if you find it again.] I still see knew things in these pictures almost every day, new relationships and feature commonalities, etc. Almost invariably, when I find some instrument with an odd feature and am nearly resigned to write it off as a fluke or one-off, I find another one with the same feature. Once I have two, I know I'm on to something, and regardless of what others might say or think, i.e what their conditioning, exposure, and expectations might be. While there was little standardization, there was a "vocabulary" from which you can pretty safely mix and match into nearly any pastiche you might choose, and chances are you'll eventually see one in the record, or at minimum you could have good reason and confidence to believe your pastiched creation is a valid candidate or reconstruction of what very likely could have existed. I'm no expert, and I have no sheep-skin, but I do have a good eye, plus the taste and drive for a good hunt. I love antiques, art, music, (and have had my fingers in all of them at one point or another) pretty things and paintings thereof, and I do love my guitars (my lutes), the whole family, and I do embrace the whole family, past and present, as one. I certainly have acquired a jones and mission regarding bowed guitars in particular though. Everything about them turns me on, motivates me, not least of which is how beautiful they _sound_, and how much they've been missed, by all. I can barely get through listening to modern cellos and violins these days. Their sound is so comparatively unpleasant, not soothing, not restful, not gentle, and less expressive in the end. My hunt for _them_, bowed guitars, in the iconography, is where my collection began. Without them, and then showing them side by side with their plucked mates, there'd be little inspiration for me. I did (also) have both a stamp collection and post-card collection when I was a kid, and I did enjoy laying them out, arranging them, displaying them, on a page, so I guess there's a lot of things that might add up to "where it all began", the talents, skills, gravitations, proclivities, loves, many hats, that all come together, find application and excuse to be exercised on my web site in general, my center-piece, my offering. Assembling my gallery was an entirely unplanned sidetrack, but it quickly took on a life of it's own. I've enjoyed and needed the distraction, something new to sink m
[LUTE] For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:02 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?) > > --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And I was just about to > > ask Bill the other day > > exactly what kind of European pre-curser > > iconographical evidence he was > > looking for, i.e. simply diminutive vihuela-guitars? > > If so, that's not so > > hard to do/find, I have a bunch I could point to, > > plucked and bowed. > > oh really? ... i have a charango sized, vihuela-guitar > looking instrument from the cantigas de santa maria > illustrations and several citole references but i'd be > very interested in seeing what you have. > > woof - bill Hi Bill; Ok, here goes. I should preface this by saying a few things: First, "everything's relative": small, smaller, smallest. I'll simply throw a bunch of pictures your way so that you can see that somewhere in the mix the general idea and notion of small bodied instruments would not have surprised anyone too very much. I'll also show examples which we moderns typically don't visualize as being vihuela in shape and size, even though they clearly _were_ to period players. We moderns are very fixated on a single body type, the smooth-curve pea-nut shape with central round rosette. But they weren't (so limited in their definitions, associations, and visualizations). I also ascribe to the notion that plucked and bowed vihuela thingies were one and the same machine, essentially, and often literally. Just a different interface. Therefore, almost any bowed vihuela might be taken to be a valid model and representation of a possible or an actual plucked counterpart. I also believe, and have proven via iconography, that small vihuela-viola were commonly played "on the arm", fiddle style, rather than strictly "da gamba" (on the leg or lap). So all of those models (small arm viols) are also fair game now, as representative of what might be considered "legal tender", and by period musicians in particular. There was virtually no standardization at all. Once we do that, allow for the arm-viols or vihuela da braccio (if you will) then finding diminutive examples truly does become quite easy. Lastly, I admit and confess that my working definition of "vihuela" is quite free and broad. I most often group together _all_ vihuela-viola-guitarra-guitars and often even gitterns and lutes, whether 4, 5, or 6 course (or single stung), plucked and bowed, long-neck or short-neck, smooth-curve or waist-cut, rosettes or C holes, thin ribs or thick, many styles of peg-box, played on the arm, lap or leg, small, medium, large, and extra-large, etc, etc. Related to this, this rather free and loose association, I do think that being "conceptually related" is _valid_ in many cases. In other words, that fact that we moderns, and in particular we Caucasian moderns, can't "remember" that our ancestors all came out of Africa, and were Black skinned, the fact that that idea is not commonly held in our "consciousness" and as part of our "creation myth", doesn't make it any less true. Ok, so I'll skip most of the Cantegas guitarras and little medieval citoles, which you've already seen, jump in right around 1480, and time-range from there to about 1560. Then again, maybe we should give the citoles a quick look. The statues in north-western Spain (you mentioned recently somewhere)are probably carved on Cathedrals?, and medieval? There are countless guitar-like instruments in medieval depictions (commonly called citoles), many seem to have had only three strings (for simplicity in stone-cutting at least) yet _4 pegs_ are often clearly indicated, and again most people today (rightly or wrongly) call them "citoles" rather than guitarras. Here's one such example of a citole http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citole07.jpg and a compilation summary of small citole body shapes and sizes http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citform.jpg You can see many example of these in this man's collection of iconography: THE CITOLE PROJECT http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citole.html So now we'll jump to 1480 and the small vihuela-viola-guitarras, plucked and bowed: [I've added some tinyURL links where I suspect they might be needed, but if any link still breaks, due to excessive line-length, please copy/paste the entire URL into your browser. The full URL usually includes the ID of the image as well, i.e. time, place, artist.] Actually, let
[LUTE] For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:02 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?) > > --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And I was just about to > > ask Bill the other day > > exactly what kind of European pre-curser > > iconographical evidence he was > > looking for, i.e. simply diminutive vihuela-guitars? > > If so, that's not so > > hard to do/find, I have a bunch I could point to, > > plucked and bowed. > > oh really? ... i have a charango sized, vihuela-guitar > looking instrument from the cantigas de santa maria > illustrations and several citole references but i'd be > very interested in seeing what you have. > > woof - bill Hi Bill; Ok, here goes. I should preface this by saying a few things: First, "everything's relative": small, smaller, smallest. I'll simply throw a bunch of pictures your way so that you can see that somewhere in the mix the general idea and notion of small bodied instruments would not have surprised anyone too very much. I'll also show examples which we moderns typically don't visualize as being vihuela in shape and size, even though they clearly _were_ to period players. We moderns are very fixated on a single body type, the smooth-curve pea-nut shape with central round rosette. But they weren't (so limited in their definitions, associations, and visualizations). I also ascribe to the notion that plucked and bowed vihuela thingies were one and the same machine, essentially, and often literally. Just a different interface. Therefore, almost any bowed vihuela might be taken to be a valid model and representation of a possible or an actual plucked counterpart. I also believe, and have proven via iconography, that small vihuela-viola were commonly played "on the arm", fiddle style, rather than strictly "da gamba" (on the leg or lap). So all of those models (small arm viols) are also fair game now, as representative of what might be considered "legal tender", and by period musicians in particular. There was virtually no standardization at all. Once we do that, allow for the arm-viols or vihuela da braccio (if you will) then finding diminutive examples truly does become quite easy. Lastly, I admit and confess that my working definition of "vihuela" is quite free and broad. I most often group together _all_ vihuela-viola-guitarra-guitars and often even gitterns and lutes, whether 4, 5, or 6 course (or single stung), plucked and bowed, long-neck or short-neck, smooth-curve or waist-cut, rosettes or C holes, thin ribs or thick, many styles of peg-box, played on the arm, lap or leg, small, medium, large, and extra-large, etc, etc. Related to this, this rather free and loose association, I do think that being "conceptually related" is _valid_ in many cases. In other words, that fact that we moderns, and in particular we Caucasian moderns, can't "remember" that our ancestors all came out of Africa, and were Black skinned, the fact that that idea is not commonly held in our "consciousness" and as part of our "creation myth", doesn't make it any less true. Ok, so I'll skip most of the Cantegas guitarras and little medieval citoles, which you've already seen, jump in right around 1480, and time-range from there to about 1560. Then again, maybe we should give the citoles a quick look. The statues in north-western Spain (you mentioned recently somewhere)are probably carved on Cathedrals?, and medieval? There are countless guitar-like instruments in medieval depictions (commonly called citoles), many seem to have had only three strings (for simplicity in stone-cutting at least) yet _4 pegs_ are often clearly indicated, and again most people today (rightly or wrongly) call them "citoles" rather than guitarras. Here's one such example of a citole http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citole07.jpg and a compilation summary of small citole body shapes and sizes http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citform.jpg You can see many example of these in this man's collection of iconography: THE CITOLE PROJECT http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citole.html So now we'll jump to 1480 and the small vihuela-viola-guitarras, plucked and bowed: [I've added some tinyURL links where I suspect they might be needed, but if any link still breaks, due to excessive line-length, please copy/paste the entire URL into your browser. The full URL usually includes the ID of the image as well, i.e. time, place, artist.] Actually, let
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
- Original Message - From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 11:29 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.(who volunteers the next?) > Dear Bill, > > The source you quote, "Historias de la Conquista del > Mayab", by a certain Fray Joseph de Buenaventura, is > mentionesd by Carlos Alberto Fernández Acevedo in the > web page in your signature in the following terms: > > "La historia surgió con motivo de un viaje que realicé > a México, a raíz del cual leí el hermoso libro > "Historia Verdadera de la Conquista de la Nueva > España" de Bernal Díaz del Castillo, soldado de Hernán > Cortés, que relató con maestría esa epopeya, y más > precisamente el libro "Historias de la Conquista del > Mayab" de Fray Joseph de San Buenaventura, que narra > detalles de la conquista de la península de Yucatán." > > It strikes me as utterly improbable that if such a > book existed, it would be unavailable in the principal > libraries and archives of Mexico, especailly taking > into account what your source states about consulting > it "con motivo de un viaje que realicé a México", that > is "because of a trip I made to Mexico". Believe me, I > am very interested in finding out the truth of this > story, and I have looked for the said book at every > possible place. Failing to find it in the main > repositories, and taking into account the fact that no > historian of the conquest and its times ever mentions > it, I am forced to believe that such a source is > merely wishful thinking by the author mentioned above. > I am, of course, prepared to change my mind and > apologize if the said book is produced somewhere, > otherwise my opinion about it still stands. > > Incidentally, the facts mentioned on the web page, > purportedly in Joseph de San Buenaventura´s book, are > not irksome in the least. I have written you off list > explaining why your interpretation is erroneous and > misleading; I wish I could be spared repeating it > again. > > A word of advice: attemts at humor are not an adequate > substitute for facts. Show me the book. > > With best wishes, > Antonio > > Jeez, you mean after all this time the creepy-crawly charango story might actually be a fairy tale! And I was just about to ask Bill the other day exactly what kind of European pre-curser iconographical evidence he was looking for, i.e. simply diminutive vihuela-guitars? If so, that's not so hard to do/find, I have a bunch I could point to, plucked and bowed. Hey Bill, I hope this doesn't shake your core foundation myth too hard. I kind of enjoy your obsessing over your little charango's history and origin. I have a nice tenor Uke, and I love it too, it's sound, cute as a puppy, endearing little creature -- whether it's literally _made_ from one or not ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
- Original Message - From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute Net" Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 7:29 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.(who volunteers the next?) > Dear Roger, > > "Ortiz the musician" did in fact exist. He is > mentioned by Bernal Diaz del Castillo, in his > _Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva > España_, as one of the soldiers who accompanied Cortez > in his venture (not in the probably spurious source > Bill mentioned). There is room for confusion, though, > with a second Ortiz (the first died, according to > Bernal "at the hands of the indians", who was also a > musician: this second Ortiz set up what was probably > the first school of music and dancing in the New > world, with an interesting circumstance: he requested > that a new plot of land be accorded to him, because > next to the one he had, in the "Calle de las Gayas", > the first brothel in the New World was founded. > > With best wishes, > Antonio > I see, thanks. The plot thickens. And yep, there goes the neighborhood. There's a transvestite hooker bar a block away from where I live, and the John traffic is heavy, driving around the block in circles all night (and morning) looking for "dates". I'd request a new parcel too, if I had the option. ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
- Original Message - From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTELIST" Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 2:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.(who volunteers the next?) > I send this message again, because I "forgot" putting an "eyewink" > emoticon! Words do not suffice... > > > "Diego Ortiz", as name and family-name, respectively, were so common, so > usual in that time, and still now, that I find it a well made choice. > Anyway, beyond how we judge it, why do you think the author of "Tratado > de glosas sobre cláusulas..." (1553) was named as it was? > Precisely because he was the son of the very same Diego Ortiz we are > speaking about... ;-) > > Saludos, > Manolo Laguillo > gotcha ;') -- whew! I truly was praying that really wasn't for real -- that potential confusion. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
- Original Message - From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 2:18 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.(who volunteers the next?) > "Diego Ortiz", as name and family-name, respectively, were so common, so > usual in that time, and still now, that I find it a well made choice. > Anyway, beyond how we judge it, why do you think the author of "Tratado > de glosas sobre cláusulas..." (1553) was named as it was? > Precisely because he was the son of the very same Diego Ortiz we are > speaking about... > > Saludos, > Manolo Laguillo > See, how fast this happens, we're already mixing fact and fiction -- re some 16th century Spanish-native "Ortiz" family and genealogy! Nestor's "Ortiz" _never existed_, so there could be no blood-relation to anyone, anywhere, ever. Correct? Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; "Cinque Cento" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 12:10 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.(who volunteers the next?) > these are a series of stories by nestor guestrin - of > which, at least one relates to the making of a > "vihuela" from the shell of an armadillo by a ship > wrecked conquistador during the time of cortez. > > information on the historical document that inspired > this story can be found on the site listed in my > "signature" below. > > olé - bill > I see. It is fiction then. The name Nestor used in his would-be biographical account, as coming from the pen of "Diego Ortiz", is also fictional then -- and an unfortunate choice, given the actual historical figure of that same name, country, and general time-frame. The whole idea of intentionally creating fictional accounts of early vihuela lore (and then on top of it erroneously linked/attributed it to an actual historical and musical figure, and one who actually wrote an important treatise on fretted 4ths, no less) seems a little counter-productive to me, muddying the waters -- we have enough problems as it is. It probably won't take long before Nester's accounts enter the mainstream and soon thereafter become commonly accepted as historical fact. on second thought, maybe don't translate the rest of it ;') danka Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
- Original Message - From: "Cinque Cento" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: [LUTE] Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.(who volunteers the next?) > Ortiz the musician > > by Nestor Guestrin, winner of the Concurso Hamlet Lima Quintana 2002 > > http://es.geocities.com/nestorguestrin/cuentos > http://cuentos.nestorguestrin.cjb.net > Thanks, this is interesting. But could you give a little background please. Is this a piece of fiction written by Nestor (and translated by you), or is this Nestor's transcription of one of Ortiz's auto-biographical works (and here translated by you)? Is this the same Diego Ortiz who published in 1553 the viol treatise titled; "Tratado de glosas sobre cláusulas y otros géneros de puntos en la música de violones" Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Roses
- Original Message - From: "Shaun Ng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute net" Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Roses > Hi all, > > I was wondering how many triple roses on theorbos are actually > depicted in existing iconography. I can't find any yet, browsing > through what there is on the net. It makes me wonder - are triple > roses simply a typically early 17th century Italian feature? It seems > that they were more uncommon back then than they are today. How does > this match up with existing instruments? > > Thanks. > > Shaun > they appear to have been less common (3-rose), but here's a few pix nevertheless: Magno dieffopruchar (Venice, 1608), http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/spencerpics/tieff.jpg Lionello Spada (1615) http://gallerymisa.hp.infoseek.co.jp/theorbo/theorbo04.html Theodoor Rombouts (1597-1637) http://gallerymisa.hp.infoseek.co.jp/theorbo/theorbo12.html Ludovico Lana (1597-1646) at far right in this picture http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/spencerpics/fig456.jpg Anon (18th cent) http://gallerymisa.hp.infoseek.co.jp/theorbo/theorbo24.html you might find more if you scour the still-lifes in this collection http://www.greatbassviol.com/a.html Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: one more cool picture
- Original Message - From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:00 PM Subject: Re: one more cool picture > I tried this link and it didn't work. My request to Mr. Blumberg was > retuned with a questionairrefrom his spam blocker. I also tried it with > jpg. Still didn't work. Hi Arthur; Here's some shorter file names: http://www.thecipher.com/viol_guitar_lute_Chile_1670-80.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/3guitars_VascoLusitano_1604_V2det.jpg Sorry about Earthlink's Spam Blocker. I basically have two settings; full on, or full off. You're on the "ok to recieve list" now. Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
one more cool picture
This one seems too rare to let it slip between the cracks. This is colonial Chile, South America, 1660-70, with plucked guitar, bowed guitar, and lute (sopranno? or maybe mandolino?) in one picture. Franciscan order Convent, Santiago Chile. Alegoría, painted by Taller de Basilio de Santa Cruz. http://www.thecipher.com/viol_guitar_lute_Chile_1670-80_Franciscan-convent.j pg [catch any trailing characters in the url please] This small viol truly looks "colonial" i.e. antique, as if it came off the boat 120 years earlier. Something about this picture seems to capture or retain the true essence of the original thing -- paired as it is with this guitar, same relative sizes, same playing postures, side-by-side, mates, etc. There was one other picture with a similar vibe, if you didn't catch it earlier. This one is 1604, three guitars: one plucked, two bowed. Fresco, by Vasco Pereira Lusitano, Coronation of the Virgin, Sao Miguel island, Azores, Portugal [Originally from the Church of the Jesuit college of Ponta Delgada]. http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_3guitars_VascoPereiraLusitano_1604_Coronati onVirgin_V2det.jpg [again, catch any trailing characters in the url please] thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Arm Viols update -- two months later
Greetings -- Keepers of the early Fretted-Fourths Legacy After two months of hunting (the web only), I can report that the catch has been very good, much better than I would have imagined -- the net is full. It's turns out that nearly all 16th century viols smaller that bass sized, were, and from the very start, played either horizontally (neck out to the left, ala lute and guitar), or on the arm (da braccio), or on the shoulder, but only rarely "da gamba". It's also become clear that thin shallow-ribbed viols, of any size, were very common, a norm, almost a missing branch of the family. So, thin-ribbed, small viols, played da braccio, two ideas that were generally though to be not of the viol tradition and domain, very definitely were. One picture added recently should please any of you who might still doubt that viols are yours, i.e. of lutes and lute players. This picture is from 1510, Italy, Marco Palmezzano, detail from Virgin Enthroned with Child and Saints. No waist-cuts on this puppy, and no mistaking what it is. http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_PalmezzanoMarco_1510_VirginChildSaints_det. jpg (grab that whole line, with the trailing .jpg, if the link breaks) Here's four composite sheets, a collected sampling of arm viols, 9 pics per: http://www.thecipher.com/braccio-viols_composite_01.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/braccio-viols_composite_02.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_composite_03.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_composite_04.jpg The section is now three pages wide (pages 3, 4, 5, of the viola da gamba section) and very graphic heavy (so they'll take time to load). http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-4.html http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-5.html I've avoided almost all arm viols with "leaf-shaped" peg boxes because most would cry "lira da braccio" -- even though I'm certain that's were a good many standard small viols are hiding. There's quite a few sub-threads woven through out, e.g. the long thin narrow and shallow ribbed specie, and the short-chunky-necked group, plus viols played da gamba, but there's plenty of arm viols, 50 to 75 examples by now, inserted throughout. Along the way, I figured it was time to reclaim some (if not all) of the "Gaudenzio Ferrari at Soronno" group, the instruments and picture which the rest of the world has been claiming represents the first documented record of a complete "violin family" -- nope, sorry, I don't think so. this group http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_GFerrari_Saronno_1536_family.jpg Small, thin ribbed, played on the arm, 4, 5, or 6 strings -- are all _viol_ descriptors, we now know -- and the bass instrument has frets . . . fer Christ's sake ;') http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_GFerrari_Saronno_1536_cello.jpg I could be in error regarding some of these instruments, but even if you remove those few (whichever you like), there's still plenty left over, more than enough to have successfully made the point, and recaptured at least some part of the early playing field, a good start in any event. alrighty. Hope you enjoy the pictures. and Happy Father's Day -- whatever it is you've concieved, fathered, and nurtured along. thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:11 AM Subject: Re: cement > > "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > >> Could it be that "Vihuela" relates with "viola"? I would say yes, > >> absolutely. Vihuela = small (or whatever "-uela" could mean in the > >> spanish Renaissance) viola. > > > > I lack any control of Spanish, unfortunately, but with -uela is a > > diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that vihuela is from a word > > like VIHA? > > Mathias > Or BIGA.. Does it suggest an Indo-European or Semitic lineage? > RT I have seen it spelled "biguela" before. How about "Vina" for "Viha". There is a theory that the Romanie-Gypsy were a tribe or even a hired army originally out of India. http://www.thecipher.com/lute-vina-India_2nd-3rdCent.jpg Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: early viols, four-strings
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: early viols, four-strings > Ian Woodfield, "The History of the Early Viol", ISBN 0-521-35743-8 > (paperback). > > PP 99-101 discuss the early printed works, including Virdung 1511 > _Musica Getutscht_ and Agricola 1528 _Musica instrumentalis deudsch_. > > -- > Dana Emery > Thank you. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Widening the net -- Viola da Braccio
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Cc: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 6:03 AM Subject: Re: Widening the net -- Viola da Braccio > > Thanks very much for placing the whole picture. That's the trouble with CD > covers sometimes that the pictures are not credited. I have a similar case > with one of Bartolomeo Bettera's paintings to track down ... so far without > luck ... > > I know what you mean about "straight perpendicular" frets on the instrument > depicted, but it does seem that they were not always arranged in a fan-like > manner. There is a painting in Louvre (attributed to Frans II, le Jeune, > c.1581 - 1642) which shows what looks like an orpharion with parallel frets > (and bridge and nut for that matter). Here is a fragment of that painting: > www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/orpharion.htm > > Alexander I'm sold ;') Corrections made, and picture added. Thanks. here's the most recent addition to the viola da braccio group, a definate, small, fretted, 5 stringer, Italian etching, 1544 http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_7Arts1544.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_7Arts1544det.jpg if one is not willing to give the benifit of doubt to the violins ever time, there are actually tons of likely prospects out there (I'm seeing now) but many are just a little too fuzzy to say for sure. But when you see enough of them you know darn well what they are even if you can't "proove it" ;') I'm really starting to believe someone's been sold a bill of goods, big time. This guy has an interesting reproduction viola da braccio. http://www.liuteria-antica.com/renainstruments.html#Hieronymus%20Brensius%20 Bononiensis bigger http://www.liuteria-antica.com/available_instruments.html he says; . . ."A five string instrument made after an original of Hieronymus Brensius Bononiensis, Bologna, 16th Century, conserved in Museo Civico Medievale in Bologna, Italy. . . Comparing with a violin it has a closer sound to viola da gamba and can be easly used for singers accompaniment. . . " It looks and sounds like a viola da gamba because it _is_ a viola da gamba played on the arm -- fer Christ's sake! this guy, by the way, is the only person I've seen yet ascribing and associating the right instrument to the name. so when you see this documented instrument (shape contours, neck width and neck length, overall size, etc), and then go back and look at 16th century iconography again, at all those would-be violins and "violas" from between 1540 and 1590, a heck of a lot can get called into question -- _if_ you're not needing to see violins everywhere you look. Also, with this instrument, you'd only see 2 pegs on the normal viewers side. Give special attention to the exact shape of the C holes on this instrument, you'll see them quite a bit, e.g. like this one http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_stadtgeiger1569sm.jpg And as I've noted on the main page; small sound holes at all four corners, whatever their shape, are another vihuela/viol family tip-off (when in doubt). and so it goes . . . thanks again for the Opharion Alexander Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Widening the net -- Viola da Braccio
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Cc: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:53 AM Subject: Re: Widening the net -- Viola da Braccio > By the way, the picture on the page > http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html#braccio (about 1/3 > down, following the words " Below: Baroque shaped guitar") looks to me more > like _orpharion_ rather than _guitar_. Is it a fragment of the above " > Eustache Le Seuer, 1643 ..." or other source? sorry, I forgot to answer this. If you're meaning this picture . . http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_baroque_clr.jpg . . . it came from a CD cover, Monteverdi, and was not credited in the liner notes (at least I couldn't find it). I've since sold the CD. I just took a quick look on Amazon but I couldn't find it there. You could be right about it being an Opharion. The frets that are visible seem to be straight perpendicular, but who knows. I'll make a note of it on the page though, thanks. Here's a larger sample of the original context scene -- if it'll help you track it down. I left it big, 160k. http://www.thecipher.com/guitar-or-opharion.jpg Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Widening the net -- Viola da Braccio
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Cc: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:53 AM Subject: Re: Widening the net -- Viola da Braccio > There is a brilliant book (if you read German) on the early violin by > Brigitte Geiser: Studien zur Fruhgeschichte der Violine, Verlag Paul Haupt > Bern und Stuttgart, 1974 The author lists and analyzes wide array of written > sources of what could ever be related to the subject (rubeba, viella, viola, > geige, viola d'arco etc), from the second half of the 13th century to 1688. > There is also an extensive list of iconographical sources and black & white > illustrations (194 in fact!). If you find it difficult to locate this book, > do let me know off list. > > And thanks very much for bringing in such a great selection of iconography; > as well as your research! By the way, the picture on the page > http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html#braccio (about 1/3 > down, following the words " Below: Baroque shaped guitar") looks to me more > like _orpharion_ rather than _guitar_. Is it a fragment of the above " > Eustache Le Seuer, 1643 ..." or other source? > > Alexander Batov > www.vihuelademano.com > Hi Alexander; Thanks for the heads up. I don't read German, but I'll ask around locally -- perhaps an inter-library loan is available. At this point in the game, I think a few more good pictures from legit and documented sources, just a fresh cull from the same stack, with a different set of eyes, a different agenda, could probably tell a few stories. Ideally, scholars should be free from any agendas (and I make no claims to being anything other than a amateur _with_ an adgenda, but still wanting to be fair, reasonable, and cautious. This whole thing, viols in general, came up out of the blue for me, and one thing led to the next) but I think there might be a basic set of assumptions that can't help but skew the results. For instance, I keep asking myself, how on earth did both camps, viol and violin, ever come to the appearent "gentlemans agreement" that "played on the arm" is the sole and excusive domain and distingishing definer of the violn family? It only took me a few days to realize and know that's complete rubish ;') Who knows, we'll see. I honestly don't have the time to devote too much more to this bowed-lute history porject, and must get back to my original and main track. Somewhere in the back of my head there's an awareness that pop music, at least, has experienced a kind of bankruptcy, and I _would_ like to see a rebirth of modernized fretted fourths bowed instruments, and taken up by guitarists as a matter of routine, a new assumption about what the basic suite of tools is and should be. So while we're at it, it would probably be a good thing to reexamine, redefine, recapture, exactly what the turf was and is, have historical precedence to point to with confidence, regarding exactly what the lute/guitar family has done and could do again. "Save the music", a campaign for more music education in U.S. schools, means essentially "save the violins" or perpetuate "classical era" music and instruments only. I'm hoping to call into question what music's and which instruments we should really be talking about, and moreover to call into question and perhaps redefine what the true "classical era" and womb was, and which instrument family is in fact the most "classic" of all. Today, we assume that to "do right" by our children we _must_ have them learn piano or violin, those are the only instruments that matter, the only proper training ground, the most respected, etc. Lutes, plucked and bowed, _the_ most versatile and facilitating of all, are "toys", not to be taken seriously, not appropriate, lesser, inferior. We worship all all other Renaissance arts, but can't trust that they might have had a good handle on all things musical as well ;'). Lutes, fretted fourths, plucked and bowed, were the _engine_. They _are_ the foundation. To me they are what "persective" was to painting and drawing. The finest of tools for the finest or arts, music. If rebecs had been the epitomy of musicial expression, the ultimate and most refined tool, I'm guessing "consorts of rebecs" would have dominated the landscape. They didn't -- and we now what did. In some respects, particularly when it comes to teaching children music, and facilitating humankind musically in general, making sure everyone has music in their own personal lives, that birthright, that they all might have accessible and approachable and fine "instruments" of artistic expression and healing, in
Re: Widening the net -- Viola da Braccio
- Original Message - From: "Sean Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lutelist" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 1:26 PM Subject: Re: Widening the net -- Viola da Braccio > > Roger, > > That's a wonderful handful of pictures. Many thanks! thanks, you're welcome > Yes, related > instruments have their place and its fine to borrow repertoire and > ideas --viol, torban, even that ridiculously ubiquitous classical > guitar ;^). > > I've been happily raiding the gamba rep for years (Hume, Bovicelli, > Ortiz etc). Some sources, of course, are up for grabs. For example, the > Segovia ms. (~1500) has some wonderful glosses on the vocal tenors and > (to my mind) they could only have been played instrumentally. Bowed, > blown or plucked? Each instrumentalist can make a convincing case. > Authentic? In the absence of specific direction and seeing the variety > of the period iconography I say, Why not? There's even a note in the > Buxheimer organ book (~1460) suggesting pieces may be played on the > keyboard or lute. and part pieces performed (and intended to be) by either keyboard, or any suitable "consort" (singers, viols, recorders/horns) is in general becoming an accepted-as-authentic approach for most or much surviving music, from the Renaissance onwards. Solo lute, or even duo, makes perfect sense too -- i.e. any suitable "polyphony engine" will do ;') > As for tuning, Ganassi states that a 6-string should be in 4ths > (lutelike) but if you don't have that many strings (by accident or > design) 5ths will do fine. Spinacino says to lower the 6th course to a > 5th interval now and then as does Dalza. Dalza even suggests a "suite" > w/ a 5th between the 4th and 5th courses. There are some pieces in > Spinacino that appear conceived for the 5-c as well. When i see this > sort of variety I am more persuaded that they worked w/ what they had > and retuned as necessary. > > Sean > Thanks for the balanced perspective Sean. In the end I'm sure it's closer to the mark than any one or two narrow pigeon-holes could account for ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Torbany
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTE-LIST" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 7:20 AM Subject: Torbany > Our (and mine) friend Sasha Batov (valentuomo fatto e finito) has recently > returned from St.Petersburg, where he photographed all 14 [sic!!!] torbans > in the collection > of St.P. Mus. of Musical Instruments, his alma mater. I have started > posting the photos (for which he gets the deepest possible bow) at > http://polyhymnion.org/torban > in Chapter III-b > (4 of them are already there). > Tremble in awe, > RT > recapturing and illuminating histories and connections is always a good thing, and appreciated. Thank you (and Sasha). Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: the cipher
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 6:22 AM Subject: Re: the cipher > > your site is up and running and radiant with wisdom. > > > > i realize this is not the forum to publicly compliment > > someone for things relating to the mandolin and - to > > be honest - > Roger's work has been (and is being) complimented and recommended before. > RT and thank you Roman Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: the cipher
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 4:16 AM Subject: the cipher > roger: > > your site is up and running and radiant with wisdom. > > i realize this is not the forum to publicly compliment > someone for things relating to the mandolin and - to > be honest - i'm not entirely sure than finding your > site just happened to coincide with a long-overdue > fruition of knowledge gained from other sources but > your common sense explanation of music theory and how > to move around the tastiera with some kind of > understanding is positively illuminating. > > graziainfinita! thankyouthankthankyou! > > john ix:25 (kjv) - bill > My, this is a wonderful way to wake up in the morning ;') Thanks Bill. I'm very happy when someone finds it useful. That's all I really wanted, to share and spread a little "joy of learning", if I could. So it fullfills me, when it succeeds, and then to hear about it. Makes my day, as they say. Danka Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: the cipher
Hi Bill; Sorry about this. It turns out it's Register.com. Their processing dept is appearently at least 3 weeks behind. I thought expiration dates meant something, i.e. you pay before the expire date is up and all's well. Silly me. g So my domain got put on a "hold" and they notified the name servers to pull the plug on my site in the mean time! Sweet. Once it gets straightened out, it'll take a few days minimum to re-propigate, get relisted, worldwide. I learned that name servers worldwide are also very behind on updates, and thus sometimes take _weeks_ to reflect changes. Again, sorry about this. Roger - Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 10:40 PM Subject: the cipher > still getting the "server doesn't respond" message > when i try to gain access to the cipher site. roger - > if it's me, please excuse the trouble i'm causing; if > it's your server, you don't deserve to be treated > this-a-way. > > - bill > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cipher
> From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:47:15 +0100 (BST) > To: lute list > Subject: cipher > > in trying to access the following: > > www.thecipher.com > > .. i get a message from my server saying it can not > be found. anyone else have this problem? > > - bill > Hi Bill; Sorry about that, and thanks for the heads-up. Seems ok now. I have no control over the servers so I don't know what might have happened nor for how long. Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Blind players and memory
> From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:37:32 -0600 > To: , "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Blind players and memory > Performance from memory, and improvisation are two completely > different things not entirely. Improvisation skills come from years of trial and error, doing, and burning in by _rote memory_ short melodic phrases, devices, sequences, patterns, progressions, cultural and personal vocabulary, which are then recombined and reused over and over again in hopefully pleasing ways -- i.e. not altogether new, in fact most often quite familiar ground to the actual player. The basic underlying framework, progressions and rhythms, are also usually familiar, essentially known by heart. What might appear to an onlooker to be effortlessly performed, new and fresh, wholly improvised stuff, is the result of years of familiarity, a developed ear, and hopefully a hefty dose of artistic sensitivity, selectivity, heart-felt response and expression. > The idea that you, or I, could come up with a masterpiece, or anything > worth writing down, whilst improvising is quite comical. I hope you're joking. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: viola da gamba [OT]
> From: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:03:44 +0100 > To: "Lutelist" > Subject: viola da gamba [OT] > > dear lutenetters, > > on sunday I visited a little castle in Westfalia where surprisingly I found a > a small exposition room with musical instruments. (No lute, though.) > But something that I would think is a viola da gamba (violoncello size), > 7 strings, very nicely decorated with ivory and mother of pearl. > It has an additional small soundhole close to the end of the neck above > the body, about 4 cm in diameter and decorated like the soundhole of a > baroque guitar - this sort of 3D-rose :-) > > I asked about the possibility of taking a photo. but the guide didn't know > whether it is allowed or not (in Germany this > means: no). In fact, nobody ever asked about this or the other > instruments, he said. > Strange enough, because this castle belongs to the family of > Bentheim-Tecklenburg, > owning a very nice collection of musical scores in Rheda, now in the > University library > of Münster. > > Do you have some idea about this sort of instrument? > > Best regards > Bernd Hi Bernd; The rosette feature is common to Austrian viols (at least), and it helps trace the lineage back to the plucked waist-cut viola-bodied lutes of the late 1400's. If it's 7 string it's probably late 1600's. 7 string viols were commonly tuned 444344 (depending on how you want to see it; is standard six string guitar tuning 44434 on the lower 6 strings, or classic 44344 lute tuning on the upper 6 with an added lower string in a 4th relationship) here's a group photo of similar instruments, all Austrian, in 6 string, at Orpheon: http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Fotos/Fotos-Events/VdgPanoramaA2.jpg here's an assortment of pictures somewhat chronologically tracing the line (with pierced rosette sound-hole) back to the late 1400's. Some 4 and 5 course lutes (both bowl-back and viola-bodied) of late 1400s had a large central rosette plus one or two smaller diamond or lancet shaped rosettes closer to the neck. Many viols had either just a rosette or some combination of rosette and C, F, or flame-arabesque holes: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/historypics/lucy2.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viola-guitar-angels.jpg (late 1400's) http://www.TheCipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viola-guitar-valencia14xx.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/LuteViolGuitarFamily_SVirdung1511.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viol_CrispinDePasse16thDutch.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viola-bowed_ReneIIc1490French-bw.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viol-guitar_GonesseOrgan_detail.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viol_musscher-sm.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/Violboy_tempel-1671-24ksm.jpg so you did in fact see a lute -- a bowed lute that is ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mar'jana Sadovska in NYC
> From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:13:14 -0500 > To: LUTE-LIST > Subject: Re: OT: Mar'jana Sadovska in NYC >> I assume you went (lucky devil), and she was great, yes? > In fact. Hairraisingly so. now I really _am_ jealous -- goose-bumps are hard to put a price on. > She will be in Philadelphia this Sunday, at Tritone, for the interested > 'delphians. Mariana is scheduled to be joined by > the world-renowned Ukrainian bandurist and baritone Julian Kytasty. > Julian and I are working on a program of Ukrainian Lieder with Baroque Lute. > It is titled "Murder & Mayhem in the Steppe: Ukrainian songs of Violence". > I will let everyone know, it is supposed to happen in 3-4 weeks. > RT > -- > http://polyhymnion.org/lieder bloody good (and gutsy too). Watch were you steppe, I guess ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mar'jana Sadovska in NYC
> From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:38:53 -0500 > To: LUTE-LIST > Subject: OT: Mar'jana Sadovska in NYC > > For those Lute-Netters in the NYC and the vicinity: > Mar'jana Sadovska > http://www.mo-productions.com/eng/marframe.html > will sing tomorrow (3/9/05) evening at the Satalla club, 10pm. I assume you went (lucky devil), and she was great, yes? I've yet to get any of her CD's, but they're still on my list and radar (via your earlier recommendations and saved mp3 clips from her site). Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Mistake on Weiss Naxos vol. 6
> From: "Robert Barto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:46:32 +0100 > To: > Cc: , <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Mistake on Weiss Naxos vol. 6 > > Dear lute friends, > > I've just received my copy of Naxos Weiss vol.6. > > There was apparently a mix-up somewhere along the line and track 10, a C = > minor Sarabande, is repeated as track 16, which should be a Bb major = > Sarabande. > > Although some people might not be disturbed, as the C minor Sarabande = > fits surprisingly well in the Bb piece, > Naxos has advised me that a new pressing will be made as soon as = > possible. > > For people who already have the CD, I hope Naxos will replace it with = > the correct version when available, but this still has to be clarified. > > My apologies to anyone who is inconvenienced by this mistake. For those = > looking for a collector's item, there will probably still be copies in = > the stores for a while. > > They say no publicity is bad publicity, but I certainly could have done = > without this. > > Robert > Robert; I recently purchased Vols 2,3,4 and 5, and I'll just take the opportunity to complement you, and thank you for them -- _fabulous_. (Roman assured me I should _run_, don't walk, to buy them, so I did -- and wasn't disappointed.) At the bargain price of Naxos CD's I think we can afford to pass-on any early-pressing copies of Vol#6 to a friend some day -- to turn them on to Wiess, the instrument, and you. Thanks for the heads-up in any event (and sorry you have to deal with this). Roger http://www.TheCipher.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Iconographie Musicale
> From: rosinfiorini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:22:21 +0100 (CET) > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Iconographie Musicale > > On this site there are quite a few instruments depicted, from several > centuries: > http://www.musicologie.org/galerie/galerie_1.html > and textes too. Like see this "manuel d'harmonique": > http://www.musicologie.org/theses/nicomaque_01.html > see the other menues too, looks like may have loads of things! Thanks for these. Among other things, I got one more picture of a viol lap-held and bowed ala guitar (neck pointed out to the left) http://discorem.free.fr/16_07b.jpg Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Vio-print
- Original Message - From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" ; "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:44 AM Subject: Re: Vio-print > Roman, again we meet in agreement. My bible of historical instruments lists > the mandocello, but not a mandoloncello. I think you are right about which > is corrupted. The violoncello is a different family, and the forming word is > violin (as contrasted to viol - as in viola da gamba, a fretted instrument). > > The mandocello is larger mandolin. The sequence in size is mandolin, > mandora, mandocello, mandobass. mandolin, mandola . . (typo I'm sure) > > And that entire family of instruments made by "luthiers" is like the naming > of cars (which all may be on the same frame). Which engine do you want, four > doors or two? If it is a flat back then it is a cittern, unless it is > triangular in body - then it is a balalaika. (Yes, I know there are more > differences - but that is the point). > > What can I say, is the answer from Shakespeare (paraphrased) "a rose by any > other name would play as sweet", or is it Gertrude Stein "a rose is a rose > is a rose". > > My new charango (which Bill tells me that you accepted as an instrument when > you decided it was basically a vihuela de mano) will make a fine alto > mandora (tuned to d" rather than g") when I get the right strings on it > (I've approximated them from my spare stock and it works, now ordering > better guages). But I can't call it a mandora as it has a "waist" like the > vihuela/guitar family, but also the deep rounded body of the lute and > mandolin. > > Do I call it a chandora or a mandango? But then again the tuning might be > that of a mandocello (in pitch) - but chancello doesn't work. BTW, the > 4-5-4-5 tuning intervals may be quite amenable to that parallel fifths > piece, I'll have to try that tomorrow (I have tab paper and can recast it). > I chose the d" tuning as the 36cm VL won't hold the g" that is nominal for > the mandora - and by having d", g', d', g, d puts one in a convenient set of > keys. The instrument would handle a higher pitch of a tone or so, but not > the g". > > Sorry guys, the old Celt is voluable as usual, but not combative. The real > point on any instrument is not its name but the combination of factors that > make it an instrument. How many courses, how many strings per course, what > kind of body and soundboard (not really that significant for play, but quite > significant for tonality). How long the VL (which not only effects pitch but > also the mood, as the pitch effects the mood). How do you intend to tune the > open strings? My charango tuned as a mandora isn't either one. > > But the name is important in one thing, to the extent that it defines the > open string tuning it sets which intabulated music you can play if you call > for it by name. Although one can recast the tab one is yet limited by the > range of the strings you are using and how far they need to be retuned. For > instance, one can play lute tab on a standard guitar by shifting two strings > by one full tone - but one can't play 4,5,4,5 mandora music on a lute - the > move is to great to retain the musicality of the strings. > > Best, Jon > > > >> MANDOLONCELLO would be an appropriate term. > > >> "mandocello" makes little sense. > > > > > > True only if you assume it's a real Italian word. > > It actually is. > > > > > > > I believe it's actually > > > an American term formed by analogy. > > Corruption of the former, rather. > > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Vio-print
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Vio-print > > Do you have any idea what "forma chelyos" does mean? > Turtle-shaped. > RT Thanks. So I guess he was actually refering to the slopped-shouldered viol (the shape we moderns usually think of) as the "turtle-shape" when he said "forma chelyos". Therefore, "Minuritonibus" is refering to the more Italianate shape (if Italianate is the way to describe it)? http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/music/simpson.html Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Vio-print
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Vio-print > 'fraid not. Cello=violoncello, i.e. SMALL violone (large viol). The > morphology is similar to limoncello, monticello etc. > RT right, that's the other morphology I was talking about. But even that, or specifically that, is saying viola da gamba, bowed guitar, of some size -- not a violin of some size. Do you have any idea what "forma chelyos" does mean? Roger > ______ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > > From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I still wonder if "forma chelyos" is where the term "cello" comes from. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Vio-print
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 6:31 PM Subject: Vio-print > Hi Roger, here is this viola print, in case you may find it interesting. Its not really early, looks like transition time (the shape): > http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/music/simpson.html > take care! > R Hi; Thanks. yes, I do have that one, or a version of it. In mine, though, that interesting little remark at the bottum has been expunged! ["The figure or shape of a Division Viol may be either of these, but the first is better for sound".] I still wonder if "forma chelyos" is where the term "cello" comes from. I've heard other attempts at explaination of it's origin, but I'm still uncertain. This picture looks like a first generation scan of the the real thing as well -- so I will keep it. Thank you. there's some other stuff there that's nice to have too, e.g. the Playford and Thomas Morley treatise covers, so thanks. Interesting side note is that the first real cello tutor wasn't published until around 1740! Yet, they'd like us to believe that cello has a long and illustrious history going all the way back to the mid 1500's via Andrea Amati, and even point to one supposed Amait-made cello survivor, the so called "King" cello, as "proof". http://www.usd.edu/smm/Cellos/Amati/AmatiCelloIndex.html It took a lot of hunting but I finally found that at least "someone" is questioning the authenticity of said "King". The New York Metropolitain Museum's web site mentions it, but you'd better believe that no other violin/cello web site on the planet will. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/strd/hd_strd.htm The King is such an obvious (and admitted) chop-job it's sad! [note too, that the MET believes that viols are in the violin family! see the two viols in their thumb-nails of violin family] The scarce other items of would-be early history that cello enthusiasts point to are: - one single lone image in a Gaudenzio Ferrari painting c.1535, fresco, Cathedral of Saronno, Italy (which instrument is _fretted_ and maybe 3 string) http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Bildmaterial-Saronno/Ferrari_Vc.jpg - mention in either Hans Gerle's treatices (1530-1550) or Jambe's, or Linfranco's, of a (theoretical at least) 4 strings in 5ths instrument somewhat larger-than-violin hence a so-called "bass". - a Michael Praetorius plate of a 5 stringer, 1620 http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/education/Violin_Vdg_Families.htm and that's pretty much it. From there, you have to jump to 1680, or there abouts, before finding any significant trail, and then restricted primarity to Italy at that early date. You'll see a few so-called "bass viola da braccios" in the iconography (in the early 1600's), but most of them have _frets_, and try playing a true bass-sized instrument in 5ths (it's hard enough in 4ths). Here's one such so called "bass viola da braccio" http://www.violadabraccio.com/violin.pictures/details.php?image_id=432 . . . and besides, Martin Agricola (1529-45 treatises) described a whole family, large and small, of 4 string _4ths tuned_ or lute tuned fretted fiddles (4-4-3 and 4-3-4). http://www.greatbassviol.com/treat/agricola6.jpg This is just to expand a little on a comment I made a couple weeks ago (Salamanca viola) about the hype, spin, and revision-of-history carried out by the violin/cello enthusiasts and purveyed for the last century or so -- the prime ammunition (the authority and weight of history), which they've fabricated, and use to convince the kiddies to keep struggling and persevere with their aggravating and harsh little fretless-wonders -- the king! of musical instruments, the violin family! In other words, they almost succeeded in erasing viols from public consciousness entirely, inducing near complete amnesia. And then, when they _do_ mention viols, it's only in relation to violins/cellos, presenting viols as a supposedly inferior, obsoleted, and archaic member of the violin family. _NOT_! I guess the point is that every drop of history they fudge is robbed from me/us -- we lute and guitar players. I take it personally. I was cheated out _my_ bowed string instrument (and the joy of playing it), it's name (viola), and a full half of the history, heritage, constributions, and music, of my family line -- and I'm pissed! ;') danka Roger > -- > > Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Organ case viols and lutes -- Eglise Notre-Dame, Andely, France, 1573
Some more interesting viols, carved in the Organ case panels at Eglise Notre-Dame church , Andely, France, case carved c.1573. The bodies of these viols are very Baroque and what we'd call violinesque (if we didn't know better), f-holes too. Interesting is comparing the two viols seen on the Eglise Notre-Dame organ to the body and shape of a baroque guitar painted by Nicolas Poussin in 1627, (Bacchanale Joueuse a De Guitare or La Grande Bacchanale). Poussin was _born_ in Andely in 1594. Meaning he grew up looking at those very same viols in his village church. http://www.thecipher.com/viol-organ_EgliseNotreDameFr1573sm.jpg full organ, I haven't issolated it here, but dead-center at the very top of this organ case is another viol (very esteemed, viols must have been). http://www.thecipher.com/viol-organ_EgliseNotreDameDet0Fr1573.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/viol-organ_EgliseNotreDameDet1Fr1573.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/viola-guitar-baroque_Poussin_LaGrandeBacchanale.jpg I think the stained glass windows in this church are full of lutes and viols too. so that's a kind of Christmas eve at church, I guess ;') Happy Happy Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: odd fret pattern
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" ; "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:54 PM Subject: Re: odd fret pattern > > - Original Message - > From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:11 PM > Subject: odd fret pattern > > > > there's an old instrument - bulgarian perhaps - up for > > auction on german ebay with an unusual fret > > arrangement. anyone have any knowledge of this? > > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7799&item=3771339890&r > d=1 > > > > just curious - bill > > > I think it's called a "tamburitza", tambur, or tambura (not the Indian one > but probably a descendant of it) -- Bulgarian, Slavic, Serbian, Bulkan, > Croatian, Bosnian, Anatolian, or something. There are probably other names > to. There are similar Afghan instruments (tambur, Dhamboura, dutar, > Shashtar), and Turkish saz etc. The upper fretting on the one at ebay must > be diatonic or "other-scalar" of some kind. > > Roger > here's a page on saz. Notice these all have "butt-ports" complete with rosette -- like those 9th century Carolingian Psalter cytharas seem to have (rear ports, trumpeted or not). http://www.rainbowcrystal.com/music/music7.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: odd fret pattern
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:11 PM Subject: odd fret pattern > there's an old instrument - bulgarian perhaps - up for > auction on german ebay with an unusual fret > arrangement. anyone have any knowledge of this? > > > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7799&item=3771339890&r d=1 > > just curious - bill I think it's called a "tamburitza", tambur, or tambura (not the Indian one but probably a descendant of it) -- Bulgarian, Slavic, Serbian, Bulkan, Croatian, Bosnian, Anatolian, or something. There are probably other names to. There are similar Afghan instruments (tambur, Dhamboura, dutar, Shashtar), and Turkish saz etc. The upper fretting on the one at ebay must be diatonic or "other-scalar" of some kind. Roger > > = > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > ___ > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: gittern lute sighting c.1375 -- obscure fresco, Italian,private dealer sale
- Original Message - From: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:01 AM Subject: Re: gittern lute sighting c.1375 -- obscure fresco, Italian,private dealer sale > Roger E. Blumberg wrote: > > > And the more you mention it; even their > > spacing is suspect. i.e. on such a short scale instrument the frets would be > > much closer together that high up. So I don't know what the deal is. > > > The deal is probably that the artist didn't care about fret spacing and paid > no attention. He wasn't illustrating a book about gitterns. ya, let's hope, that it's just carelessness, and not a red flag signaling a fake (or something) i.e. seems like it should be a pretty important picture (for purposes of 14th cent. lute iconography) all things considered. One has to wonder what else is out there in private hands that's never seen the light of day. This picture is categorized as "Pretty couple playing chess" (or something to that effect). No mention of the lute or musical instrument of any kind in the description, so one literally has to accidentally stumble upon it (as I did). i.e. normal or ideal search terms would never retrieve this image. Roger > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: gittern lute sighting c.1375 -- obscure fresco, Italian, private dealer sale
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 8:43 PM Subject: Re: gittern lute sighting c.1375 -- obscure fresco, Italian, private dealer sale > interesting (if improbable) placement of double > fretting - can't see how the last ones stayed in > place. martini's looks more accurate. > > as always, thanks for the interesting site. > > - bill ya, you're right, it does look odd. And the more you mention it; even their spacing is suspect. i.e. on such a short scale instrument the frets would be much closer together that high up. So I don't know what the deal is. And Thanks Roger > > --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > iconography alert; > > > > gittern or lute c.1375 -- obscure fresco, Italian, > > private dealer sale > > > > > http://bigli.com/english/mostraquadro.asp?QuadroID=193&N=affresco# > > click image to enlarge > > > > instrument is similar to one by SIMONE MARTINI (died > > 1344), Italian painter, > > Sienese school > > http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/martini/p-martin11.htm > > > > both again are similar to Berkely ms744 instrument > > c. 1375 -- documenting > > straight 4ths tuning on four string or course > > gittern/lute. > > > > Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
gittern lute sighting c.1375 -- obscure fresco, Italian, private dealer sale
iconography alert; gittern or lute c.1375 -- obscure fresco, Italian, private dealer sale http://bigli.com/english/mostraquadro.asp?QuadroID=193&N=affresco# click image to enlarge instrument is similar to one by SIMONE MARTINI (died 1344), Italian painter, Sienese school http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/martini/p-martin11.htm both again are similar to Berkely ms744 instrument c. 1375 -- documenting straight 4ths tuning on four string or course gittern/lute. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: The Cap-Stone image -- guitars to viola da gamba -- Gonesseorgan viola, France 1508
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:19 AM Subject: Re: The Cap-Stone image -- guitars to viola da gamba -- Gonesseorgan viola, France 1508 > > > I hope I'm not becoming a nuisance with this topic, > Are you joking? In comparison with tall ships, armadillos and facial hair: > not even close. > RT > Thanks. I just don't want to bore people to tears or something ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
The Cap-Stone image -- guitars to viola da gamba -- Gonesse organ viola, France 1508
I hope I'm not becoming a nuisance with this topic, but one last specimen should do it -- I guess the French get their piece of the pie at last. This image of a viola sine arculo vihuela is from the Gonesse organ, in France -- l'orgue de Abbey Eglise Saint Pierre et Saint Paul. a series of panels painted in 1508 decorating the organ loft. Here are 3 images: the organ itself, followed by two detail blow-ups. The particular viola is in the lower panels, third from the left (but I believe there are similar instruments in at least half of those panels! This instrument has ALL the features and proofs required: it's 1508, it's shown being plucked, it's large sized, has two diamond ports at the shoulders, full round rosette, sharp cornered deep waist-cuts, lute-style peg box, 5 strings, and a separate bow-style tail piece (that's what makes this so unique, a plucker with that tail). http://www.thecipher.com/viola-GonesseOrganItselfFrance1508.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_GonesseOrgan.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_GonesseOrgan_detail.jpg main page with all viola sine arculo images collected to date http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-2.html so if this ain't a done deal now, it never will be. all done :) thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Euing Lute Book, England: c.1620-1630 MS Euing 25
stumbled upon it, passing it on . . .=20 Special Collections, University of Glasgow http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/treasures/subject.html##music http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/treasures/lute.html plate online http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/manuscripts/search/detaild.cfm?DID=3D5897 = ms info Euing Lute Book England: c.1620-1630 MS Euing 25 Only a small amount of English lute music of the late Sixteenth and = early Seventeenth Centuries was published, and therefore surviving = manuscripts are the principal sources of the repertoire. This important = manuscript contains much of the best music in this repertoire. The = volume is dated to some time in the 1620s and contains seventy-two = dances for the lute written in tablature. Included are some unique = items, as well as works by Dowland, Holborne and Cutting. This opening = shows John Dowland's celebrated piece, the solemn Semper Dowland, Semper = Dolens. Such anthologies were compiled by professional lutenists for = their own use; they would copy works by other composers as well as their = own compositions into these personal anthologies. The identity of the = original compiler of this volume is not known. It is now usually = referred to as the ' Euing Lute Book' after William Euing, the Glasgow = insurance broker and bibliophile who owned it in the Nineteenth Century. = -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:39 AM Subject: FW: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow > On Wed, 01 December 2004 16:46 Roger Blumberg wrote: > > > I do agree that the bowing bridge seems precariously placed, as if it's > about to fall into the C-holes (I think that's why it's pushed so far > forward, to catch a stable edge left and right), seems almost an > afterthought on the musician's part (whoever the actual owner was) or as if > the instrument better defaults to a plucked viola.< > > > One of the possible ways to explain this rather unusual position of the > "bowing bridge" is that because its right foot is let through the cut-out in > the > soundboard (in this case the lower circle of the right C-hole) and rests on > the back of the instrument. The quality of the reproduction doesn't allow to > see clearly that the left hole is actually a complete C or just consists of > a circle. The upper circle of the right C-hole is also noticeably further > from the soundboard edge. I tried to edit light and contrast / sharpness > settings of the image and it doesn't seem that it is complete, i.e. the left > foot of the bridge (as it should be in this case?) rests on the soundboard. > I've put a rough drawing here www.vihuelademano.com/Viti-viol-bridge.htm > that illustrates what I mean. A similar construction of the bridge occurs on > some traditional bowed instruments of the Middle East (If memory serves me > right, on some Bulgarian and Greek rebec-like short neck bowed fiddles). > There are some examples of this bridge construction on the instruments of > the European origin too and I personally came across 7-sting double bass > (so-called "church bass") made in 1739 in Germany (in the St-Petersburg > collection of musical instruments). In this last case the bridge is > positioned below the C-holes and the right foot of the bridge goes though a > square hole in the soundboard and rest on the back, just like the sound post > does in the violin family instruments. > > This construction has probably survived from the times when the first > attempts / experiments with the sound post were carried out. Equally so this > may well have been introduced to achieve a particular type of sound or to > balance the overall output of the instrument or indeed to avoid strong "wolf > notes" (I suppose bowed viols without soundpost have to have thicker > soundboards in order to avoid such problems). > > As for the "plucking bridge", it might have been put there to help to > re-distribute the downward pressure of strings to the lower area of the > soundboard. The other alternative - to kill vibrations of strings on the > stretch between the tailpiece and the "bowing bridge" (as somebody have > already mentioned) is also likely. In this last case only light pressure > from strings is enough to keep that second bridge in place. Equally so it > may well be an old bridge with the added one in front in order to improve > the sound, avoid "wolf notes" (right foot resting on the back would > certainly help in this) etc. > Alexander; just to let you know your idea wasn't so far fetched; I stumbled on this today, also in Segerman's manuscript; http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/Bowed2.html ". . . Some illustrations from around 1535 [28] show viols with holes in the soundboard through which the treble foot of the bridge goes through, acting like a soundpost. This would inhibit the sound of the highest strings and enhance the sound of the lowest strings, unless there was a longitudinal bar under the centre of the soundboard, which could result in some distrubuted enhancement (by the soundboard rocking around the bar), as on the modern Greek or Cretan lyra. . . " footnote [28]: frescos from "Schloß Goldegg" (1536) and woodblocks on the title pages of the superius, altus and bassus part books of the copies in the Basel Universitätsbibliothek of 'Reutterliedlin' printed by Christian Egenolph in Frankfurt am Main (1535). I haven't been able to find pictures of the Goldegg Castle or "Schloss" (in Salzburg) frescos on the web, I'm anxious to see them. Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting
- Original Message -
From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Daniel F Heiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow
c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Daniel F Heiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 7:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and
bow
> c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting
>
>
> >
> > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:28:32 -0800 "Roger E. Blumberg"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > >
> > > Ok, so, it turns out a man named "Ephraim Segerman" writes about the
> >
> > Segerman is one of the most prolific authors on the history of stringed
> > instruments. He has quite a large number for articles in the FOMRHI
> > journal, for example, stretching back 30 years or more.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I've yet to learn what Woodfield's book (on early viol history) has
> > > to say about the picture.
> >
> > Nothing particularlly interesting or valuable:
> >
> > "Further North, Urbino was also receptive to the new Spanish
> > instruments. Under the rule of the Montefeltro family the Duchy of
Urbino
> > had become one of the most important cultural centers in the Papal
> > States. In 1502, however, the city fell to Cesare Borgia's army after a
> > surprise attack during his campaign to subdue dissident elements in the
> > Papal States. It is surely no coincidence that the viol first appeared
> > in the art of Urbino about the time of the Borgia occupation. Timoteo
> > Viti, for example, included a viol in one of his earliest commissions in
> > that city, a painting of the Madonna and Child completed before c1505
> > (Plate 52). Vasare singled out Viti's young viol player for special
> > praise: 'there is a little child angel sitting on the ground who plays
> > the viol with a truly angelic grace and childlike simplicity' ('dove è
un
> > Angeletto sedente in terra, che suona la viola con grazie veramente
> > angelica e con semplicità fanciullesca'). The continuing popularity of
> > the viol at the court in Urbino is attested to by Castiglione, whose Il
> > Libro del Cortegiano,a wonderfully evocative, if idealized, record of
the
> > life at a Renaissance court, was largely based on his experiences at
> > Urbino. etc...
> >
> > DFH
> >
>
I'll also point out the greater convergence of all three key players via
Woodfield's account;
. . . " It is surely no coincidence that the viol first appeared in the art
of Urbino about the time of the Borgia occupation . . "
- Timoteo Viti was from Urbino
- Raphael was also from Urbino (lived under the same roof with Viti for a
time)
- Borgia was the Valencian Pope who commissioned the Vatican Borgia
apartment frescos which contain that key plucked viola, circa 1493 -- Borgia
having brought his entire court chapel with him from Valencia to Rome in
1492, including his "violists".
http://www.thecipher.com/violasineacrulo_Borgia1493bw.jpg
I love it when a plan comes together ;') I actually think the evolution was
well under way before Borgia enters the picture, both in Spain and Italy,
but there's some kind of crescendo circa 1500. In 1502 was also the "Toledo
Summit", Spanish/Flemish, major cultural exchange and competition among
kingdoms, and no doubt a very probable route for viola da gamba/vihuela
d'arco technology to travel north fast (if it wasn't there already).
liner notes from Orland Consort CD
"An encounter between two powerful dynasties.
The Orlando Consort revisits a fascinating meeting between two musical
cultures. During his 1502 ceremonial visit to Toledo (Spain), Philip the
Fair of Burgundy, and his Royal hosts, Ferdinand and Isabella, vied to
display the artistic achievements of their respective realms. Music was
central to all the festivities: solemn celebrations, worship, courtly
banquets, dances and chivalric entertainments."
Roger
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Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting
- Original Message -
From: "Daniel F Heiman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow
c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting
>
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 02:28:32 -0800 "Roger E. Blumberg"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >
> > Ok, so, it turns out a man named "Ephraim Segerman" writes about the
>
> Segerman is one of the most prolific authors on the history of stringed
> instruments. He has quite a large number for articles in the FOMRHI
> journal, for example, stretching back 30 years or more.
>
>
> >
> > I've yet to learn what Woodfield's book (on early viol history) has
> > to say about the picture.
>
> Nothing particularlly interesting or valuable:
>
> "Further North, Urbino was also receptive to the new Spanish
> instruments. Under the rule of the Montefeltro family the Duchy of Urbino
> had become one of the most important cultural centers in the Papal
> States. In 1502, however, the city fell to Cesare Borgia's army after a
> surprise attack during his campaign to subdue dissident elements in the
> Papal States. It is surely no coincidence that the viol first appeared
> in the art of Urbino about the time of the Borgia occupation. Timoteo
> Viti, for example, included a viol in one of his earliest commissions in
> that city, a painting of the Madonna and Child completed before c1505
> (Plate 52). Vasare singled out Viti's young viol player for special
> praise: 'there is a little child angel sitting on the ground who plays
> the viol with a truly angelic grace and childlike simplicity' ('dove è un
> Angeletto sedente in terra, che suona la viola con grazie veramente
> angelica e con semplicità fanciullesca'). The continuing popularity of
> the viol at the court in Urbino is attested to by Castiglione, whose Il
> Libro del Cortegiano,a wonderfully evocative, if idealized, record of the
> life at a Renaissance court, was largely based on his experiences at
> Urbino. etc...
>
> DFH
>
Thanks a million Daniel -- for confirming that Segerman is a credible
source, ending the suspense re what Woodfield had to say, _and_ typing all
that up!
much appreciated
Roger
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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting
> > From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: 2004/12/01 Wed AM 09:30:40 EST > > To: LUTE-LIST <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: FW: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and > > bow c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting > > > > From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Newsgroups: rec.music.early > > [snip] > >From there, a wholly > > unexpected find, a 2 bridge viola (6 string gamba) in a painting by > Timoteo > > Viti, c.1500 (Madonna and child). The blow-up clearly shows that the > smaller > > object behind the bowing bridge is a low, flat topped, plucking bridge, > > laying on it's side behind the bowing bridge and tucked under the strings > > closer to the tail. The plucking bridge has clearly defined angled tapers > > at both ends and on the underside cut-out, and has well defined flat > > bottomed feet as well. I'm guessing that neither bridge was fixed, you > just > > swap them around as desired [snip] Hello again; Ok, so, it turns out a man named "Ephraim Segerman" writes about the two bridge Viti viol in a manuscript draft now on the internet [THE DEVELOPMENT OF EUROPEAN BOWED INSTRUMENTS up to the baroque: a closer look -- draft as of February 2002] located here: http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/Bowed2.html here's what Segerman has to say about it -- very similar to what I have, and seeing the same oddity I saw (two bridges). He doesn't mention it could be a conversion from an earlier 4 or 5 string though, and he's suggesting two styles of bowing on one instrument rather than pluck and bow : ". . . . A 1505 painting [illustrated in Plate 52 in Woodfield op. cit.] shows a viol with a bridge with shallow curvature parked under the strings behind a higher bridge (being used at the time) that had rather more curvature. This indicates that players exchanged bridges to play in different styles: With a higher bridge having more curvature, individual strings could be sounded separately when bowing near the bridge, and groups of strings could be sounded while bowed farther from the bridge. . . . " I've yet to learn what Woodfield's book (on early viol history) has to say about the picture. At any rate, while this separates "first discovery" from me (which wasn't the main point anyway) it confirms that at least someone writing in scholarly-like fashion on the history of early bowed string instruments is of the same opinion. Segerman also speaks matter-of-factly of the vihuela to viols connection, and even specifically singles out the "waist cut" variant of vihuela as being key. Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT -- medieval Spanish Illuminated MS plates
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 5:35 AM Subject: OT -- medieval Spanish Illuminated MS plates > http://www.arteguias.com/artesaniamedieval.htm > > if you click the little info icons you'll get to the respective plates, in > color, very pretty -- musical instruments or not. > > Most of us have probably seen the Cantigas plates, but little else. > > (about as close to sunday morning worship as I'm gonna get ;') > > Roger so here's an odd connection. It occured to me that those long curved support poles seeming to prop up the front ends of the bass cytharas seen in the 9th century Psalters might be doubling as extra resonator pipes, even those round doughnut thingys at the butt of most of those instruments might be a "trumpet" port -- there's no sound holes on the faces of any of those instruments. http://www.thecipher.com/seek/CarolingianPsalter-detail2.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/seek/FrenchPsalterCythara_detail1.jpg So I just found this plate at the above site and low and behold it _is_ an Alpine Trumpet! http://www.arteguias.com/artesaniamedieval/g-angelsanisidoro.jpg and this is not really so far fetched given the "Stroh-viols" of the early 1900's http://www.thecipher.com/stroh-cello.jpg those long curved-ended pole things appear in virtually every single image of the Carolingian Psalter instruments, and in that other French one too, and if it even looks like many of the instruments in the Super Apocalypsum have rear round butt-port sound holes. so either every single one of those instrument players is moon-lighting as a bass horn player and keeping it tucked under his arm pit as he plays his string-bass, or those might just be trumpet resonators. who knows, just a though. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
OT -- medieval Spanish Illuminated MS plates
http://www.arteguias.com/artesaniamedieval.htm if you click the little info icons you'll get to the respective plates, in color, very pretty -- musical instruments or not. Most of us have probably seen the Cantigas plates, but little else. (about as close to sunday morning worship as I'm gonna get ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
Hi Antonio; Thank's very much for the heads up. I'll add that caviot to my discription of the instrument. There's many ways that restorers, professional or amature, might botch a resoration, particularly with fresco. Maybe Bill was right -- that it looked very crisp for a 700 year old picture. But adding not one but two (and symetrically placed) waist cut-outs where none had been, in a picture with so few lines, is a kind of restoration error and liberty taking that would really be over the top. They'd also have to falsify any contoured shading on the face next to the cut outs as well. A chunk of missing (fallen off) fresco here and there is not unusual. But two chunks missing in those two exact spots doesn't seem very likely to me, nor is the prospect that someone would fill in those missing bits with contours that are not typical of guitars (by our modern expectations of what guitars do now and might then have looked like). It would be more likely that someone would chose to eradicte cutouts altogether and reconstruct with a smooth curve or fairly straight line countour as they "re-connected the dots" at the waist. It's been clear to me for a long time that violin archiologists and enthusiests have been putting their own spin on things for a long time, and in many differenent ways, but I don't think they'd stoop _that_ low ;') Thanks again, I wish there was some way to find out exactly what kind of restoration problems are associated with those frescos. I don't think I'll personally ever have the time nor energy to track it down though. You said that you once had some bit of documentation mentioning the restorations, which you had picked up on site -- I'm assuming a tourist brochure of some kind. Perhaps I can get a copy of one somehow, some day. Thanks Roger - Original Message - From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:30 PM Subject: Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain > Dear Roger, > > An update to your update. I am sorry to disappoint you > but, even though the frescos in the Capilla del Aceite > indeed date from the 14th century, the painting in > question is a 20th-century restoration, and a botched > job at that. I have know this picture for a long time, > I´ve been to Salamanca and seen it personally. > Unfortunately I do not have at hand the documentation > I obtained at the Cathedral, where it is stated that > the frescoes of the Capilla had undergone the > aforesaid restoration, but I would advice you to > evaluate this picture with extreme caution, bearing in > mind that we do not know the extent of the "repairs". > I too found it a facinating instrument. > > With best wishes, > Antonio > > > > > --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi all; > > > > Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar > > story (to viola da gamba > > ulitmately), I've just add this instrument: > > > > > http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg > > Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola > > sine arculo), 1300s. > > Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite. > > Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite > > Catedral Vieja da Salamanca > > > > Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?) > > string > > Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very > > old, and will probably > > link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps > > even the 9th cent > > Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder > > mounted (or forearm > > bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps > > then even the > > Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates > > c.926 AD. The > > instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied. > > Another intermediate > > instrument, to help solidify those earlier > > connections would be nice. If any > > of you stumble upon one please let me know. > > > > It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs > > originally evolved as a > > bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device > > (hook it up over your > > right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain > > manuscript instruments > > also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end > > of the instrument (i.e. > > stabalization and support were an issue on the > > larger instruments.) > > > > Thanks > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > ___ > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > >
Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 4:14 AM Subject: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain > Hi all; > > Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar story (to viola da gamba > ulitmately), I've just add this instrument: > > http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg > Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola sine arculo), 1300s. > Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite. > Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite > Catedral Vieja da Salamanca > > Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?) string > Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very old, and will probably > link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps even the 9th cent > Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder mounted (or forearm > bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps then even the > Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates c.926 AD. The > instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied. Another intermediate > instrument, to help solidify those earlier connections would be nice. If any > of you stumble upon one please let me know. > > It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs originally evolved as a > bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device (hook it up over your > right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain manuscript instruments > also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end of the instrument (i.e. > stabalization and support were an issue on the larger instruments.) > > Thanks > > Roger > If you root around in here you'll see what I'm talking about -- very early lutes/guitars/cytharas (whatever you want to call them), plucked, plectrumed, bowed, 9th century). http://www.thecipher.com/seek/ These are from what are the oldest surviving illuminated manuscripts on the planet. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 4:40 AM Subject: Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain > is the figure holding a plectrum? yes (looks like) > difficult to distinguish the peg box. yes, but I've seen it before (somewhere). It's even earlier than the cordate or heart-shaped "leaf-shaped" peg box (I believe). > very fresh, contemporary > looking drawing, i'd say - not bad for 700 years old. true, but I've seen similar, including that heavy bold solid outlining technique > thanks for posting that. you're welcome > - bill > thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
Hi all; Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar story (to viola da gamba ulitmately), I've just add this instrument: http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola sine arculo), 1300s. Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite. Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite Catedral Vieja da Salamanca Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?) string Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very old, and will probably link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps even the 9th cent Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder mounted (or forearm bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps then even the Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates c.926 AD. The instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied. Another intermediate instrument, to help solidify those earlier connections would be nice. If any of you stumble upon one please let me know. It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs originally evolved as a bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device (hook it up over your right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain manuscript instruments also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end of the instrument (i.e. stabalization and support were an issue on the larger instruments.) Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: oldest viola picture
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: oldest viola picture > ah! but you _can_ bow chords, and they _did_ bow chords. The radius of a 6 > string viol's bridge is much less than on a violin, but/and the bow hair is > also looser than on a violin. The bow hold is different than violin, it's > "palm up" and you can actually control the tension of the bow hair with your > fingers. You can most certainly bow three adjacent strings: any triad in any > inversion, any sus chord, any 7th chord with dropped 5th (makes three tones > on three adjacent strings), any power 5th or 4th (trine). You can also rake > across all six in a deliberate slower arc. You can arpeggiate, _and_ you can > pluck! besides, judiciously inserted bowed double-stops, harmonic intervals, are very often all the "chord" required. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: oldest viola picture
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Re: oldest viola picture > Viol consorts were the dance band of the arostocracy at > least. All of the lute dances were played on lutes _and_ viols. Again, > Elizabethan paintings prove it if nothing else. here's two such pictures: http://www.thecipher.com/viol-lute-dance_Eng16th.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/viol-lute-dance_Eng16th2.jpg Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: oldest viola picture
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:52 PM Subject: Re: Re: oldest viola picture > I for sure would have liked to test bowing but this thing was there waiting for its owner (who must have the bow). The repared the linearity of the fingerboard which had the defect of some deeper palces that make part of fret sink. > I only wonder, is it not a little limiting to play things on the viol when oyu cannot bow strings simultaneously that are not neighboring? > cheers > R ah! but you _can_ bow chords, and they _did_ bow chords. The radius of a 6 string viol's bridge is much less than on a violin, but/and the bow hair is also looser than on a violin. The bow hold is different than violin, it's "palm up" and you can actually control the tension of the bow hair with your fingers. You can most certainly bow three adjacent strings: any triad in any inversion, any sus chord, any 7th chord with dropped 5th (makes three tones on three adjacent strings), any power 5th or 4th (trine). You can also rake across all six in a deliberate slower arc. You can arpeggiate, _and_ you can pluck! Although they did and you can bow chords they were most often played in parts, like a string quartet. Viol consorts _were_ the first string quartets, a full 250 years befor Haydn ;'). Bowed guitars layed the foundation of European bowed string music. Go out and buy everything you can by the Fretwork viol consort, Paolo Pandolfo, and Jordi Savall. You'll hear everything from intricate part music, to chords bowed on a single viol, to viruose solo viol playing. Everything from church-like compositions to jigs and other dances. Viol consorts were the dance band of the arostocracy at least. All of the lute dances were played on lutes _and_ viols. Again, Elizabethan paintings prove it if nothing else. Not to fear. You will not be loosing out in the bargain ;') Besides, you can still pick up your dedicated plucked lute any time you want (and they did). You'll have more, of everything, not less. More tools, more expresive and creative potential, more music. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: oldest viola picture
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 10:16 PM Subject: Re: oldest viola picture > Plucked viola, like this one > http://www.thecipher.com/viola-guitar-angels.jpg were lutes (for all intents > and purposes), just an alternative body design and construction. And the > bowed version of the viola, like this, > http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Raphael_1514.jpg was just that, the > bowed version, bowed lute -- the same thing essentially: same body, same > frets, same tuning. No matter if you play viola shaped lute or bowl back > lute, viols are your instrument . . . Here's and interesting plate from Sebastian Virdung's 1511 treatise http://www.thecipher.com/LuteViolGuitarFamily_SVirdung1511.jpg Note that the viola shown (Geigen, German) has no bowing bridge, has as many strings as a bowl-back lute, has lute style bridge. Pretty much everything about the lute and viola shown there identical -- excepting body shape. The shape of the Geigen, in 1511, is essentially that of a viola sine arculo of Italy and Spain in the same time period. Oddly, there is a bow! next to a machine that looks like it's meant to be plucked. I believe this is a two-in-one illustration, space saving, reminding that there were two versions of the viola/Geigen, one plucked, one bowed, and also reminding of the relationships involved. Everyone alive then probably knew the implied (too obviouse to mention then) meanings, correlations, relationships. The drawing is making it clear that viols are a type of lute that is bowed. And that type, is the viola/vihuela lute. anyhoo, just thought I'd send it. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: oldest viola picture (puerto rican cuatro)
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 4:29 AM Subject: Re: oldest viola picture (puerto rican cuatro) > > "Hispaniola", where columbus landed (and he named) is now called > > Haitti/Domincan Republic. > Actually Hispaniola the island is still called that, despite being divided > into 2 aforementioned countries. > RT noted (and good morning Roman) Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: oldest viola picture (puerto rican cuatro)
- Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 3:24 AM Subject: Re: oldest viola picture (puerto rican cuatro) > > > > Plucked viola, like this one > > > http://www.thecipher.com/viola-guitar-angels.jpg > > were lutes (for all intents and purposes), just an > alternative body design and construction. > > there are some bright sparks on the list who would > argue that violas, like the one pictured in the above > address, cease to be violas altogether when > constructed in the new world. they, like their > frightfully common associate, the vihuela de mano, > become entirely different instruments; new name ... > everything ... > > amazing, really. ya, it is. Last night I was looking again at Puerto Rican and Cuban "Tres" and "Cuatro" [cuatros are now actually 5 course, they simply retained their earlier name as they grew]. Cuatros are in straight 4ths. Tres' are 4-3 (GCE). "Hispaniola", where columbus landed (and he named) is now called Haitti/Domincan Republic. Hispaniola lays dead center of Cuba and Puerto Rico. http://bbfi-northamerica.org/Lane/hispaniola.htm Then there's all the Mexican and South American regional variants. Then from Argentinian cowboys imported to Hawaii in the mid 1800's we get Ukulele's. ;') Lutes and guitars rule -- and always have ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: oldest viola picture
- Original Message - From: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 1:38 AM Subject: Re: oldest viola picture > Normally people like you give away free bibles. How > about a free viol? :-) > > Stephan > > Am 7 Dec 2004 um 22:16 hat Roger E. Blumberg > geschrieben: > > > If it was in my power to do so, I would ;') Preaching is the best I can do for now. You'll have to pray to St. Celilia to put the word in Santa's ear. ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: oldest viola picture
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:20 PM Subject: oldest viola picture > Here, this they say is the oldest painting where they portray viola (its from quatro > cento towards end i think). Link: >http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/education/OldestVioladagamba.htm Hi rosinfiorini; Yes, I've seen that one. It's a late 1400's five stringer, Valencia Spain. > Here is a page with lots of old viola bridges and they are pretty consistent. Looks like the "second" bridge on the Viti picture >is merely the shadow of the actual bridge (since there is no lower horizontal bar on the old bridges). The shadow is exactly >as the angle view of the typical ancient bridge as seen on this page: >http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/education/BridgesVdg.htm A shadow?. Sorry, I don't see what you're seeing. http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg you're saying one of those bridge objects in the Viti is the shadow of the other? > The other day i was at this luthier and he does a lot (mostly how he makes living) repares. On the counter was a viola da >gamba. I played the thing as if it were a lute (i play renaissance lute). Believe me there was no need for a second bridge! It >was delight to see this thing was tuned in a familiar way:) I'm glad you recognized that viol as family (familiar) when you played it ;') The scenario I was suggesting though, is reverse. Someone might have put a bowing bridge on an earlier plucked viola. Pluckers can pluck a viol, but bowers can not bow a dedicated plucked viola (not very sucessfully at least). They started out that way, using regular plucked flat fixed bridges to do their bowing, similar to modern classical guitar bridge. See this picture: http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_ValenciaMadonnaCampiCmpr.jpg Note the kind of bridge the bowed viola has, same as a plucked one would have (flat, positioned way to the back, glued to the face, no separate tail ). Over time they evolved two separate dedicated and optimised designs, one for bowing and one for plucking (though, as you say, you _can_ pluck a viol). That bowed violists _can_ still pluck their instrument, they aren't deprived of that function, activity, and joy, speaks well for the argument overall. Again, there are many clues that something is not right in the Viti viol/viola, here's just a few: - the tail is too narrow for that bowing bridge (too narrow for 6 strings) - fretboard appears to be flat on the face of the instrument -- like a plucked viola - strings are hanging off the side if the fretboard left and right. It could be an old dedicated 4 sting bowed viola converted to 6 stringer, but even that's good to know because it helps identify a truer date for the instrument and it's overal design. It's pretty clear to me that Viti's and Raphael's viols are of different true ages, even though they were painted only 10 years apart. Thanks for the note. So are you thinking about getting a viol now? Did you get a chance to bow one? That's the needed convincing mechanism -- to experience feeling some long sustained bowed notes coming from your fingers compared to the fast decaying plucked ones, (and without having to learn a new instrument nor tuning). Plucked viola, like this one http://www.thecipher.com/viola-guitar-angels.jpg were lutes (for all intents and purposes), just an alternative body design and construction. And the bowed version of the viola, like this, http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Raphael_1514.jpg was just that, the bowed version, bowed lute -- the same thing essentially: same body, same frets, same tuning. No matter if you play viola shaped lute or bowl back lute, viols are your instrument -- the other half of your expressive and music making tool set. It shouldn't be either/or, it could and should be both. There are plenty of documented historical figures who were masters of both viol and lute, no surprise. When you see an old painting or etching of an Elizabethan contort, viols plus lute, every instrument in that picture is a lute. Some are bowed, some are plucked, some big, some small, some single course, some double. A guitar is a lute, it's the closer body-type relative of the viola/vuhuela-lute (rather than bowl-back lute). Viols did not come from bowl-back bodied lutes, they came from viola/vihuela bodied lutes. But they're still all the same machine. Viols are as much guitars as they are lutes, or as much lutes as they are guitars. The point is they are our other half. The belong to us. And lutes belong to viol players. We are one. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow > - Original Message -=20 > From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:21 AM > Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck = > andbow > > > > > by destinct I mean having the minimum _defining_ features, three of = > which > > are: > > - end of the fretboard up off the sounding board > > - no sound post to dampen the top vibrations > > - thin light construction > > > > some other requirements are: > > - thin, light, high, wide, radiused bridge with small foot-print > > - separate tail (also up off the sounding board) > > - raduised fretboard > > > > the machine should work, fundamentally, if at least those features and > > requirements are met (canting the neck back came later and helps lower = > the > > action and increase downward pressure on the bridge, more angle). In = > the > end > > you have to have a sounding board and instrument that really vibrates > > freely. Beyond that, the specifics of body shapes and contours, are = > more > or > > less window dressing, fashion -- they will have some effect, but the > > instrument won't work at all, you won't acheive the defining = > distintive > > sound, without meeting some minimum requirements first. > > I see what you mean now ... seems like a lot to ask for from such an > innosent picture ... but I think it does a pretty good job of returning the right answers. It needs to be seen all in a single specimen, and at the right place and time, to really make the impact, speak volumes. I think this is the one. By the way, it turns out that St. Cecilia is the "patron Saint of music, musicians, singers, and poets"! How utterly poetic, that she, via Raphael's painting, is the "keeper of the key" (guitars to viols). Lovely ;') A little punctuation from the God's is always nice ;') We all see what we want to see, but I think this case is made. Until I find a better fit -- I'm keepin it. Roger > > Alexander > www.vihuelademano.com > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow > ----- Original Message - > From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Alexander Batov" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:10 PM > Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow > > Hi Roger, > > > well, it'll work, but it won't give you the distinct sound of a viol. > > Strictly speaking I would find it very difficult to establish such an > absolute category as "distinct sound of a viol", in particularly as it > refers to the subject under discussion. Even in the late 16th - 17th century > Europe when instruments of the viol family have accuqired their more or less > difined structure, viols by English, French, Italian, Dutch and German > schools of makers are all different (body shape, body depth, soundboard > thickness; with or without soundposts and / or soundplates ect) and so are > their sounds. by destinct I mean having the minimum _defining_ features, three of which are: - end of the fretboard up off the sounding board - no sound post to dampen the top vibrations - thin light construction some other requirements are: - thin, light, high, wide, radiused bridge with small foot-print - separate tail (also up off the sounding board) - raduised fretboard the machine should work, fundamentally, if at least those features and requirements are met (canting the neck back came later and helps lower the action and increase downward pressure on the bridge, more angle). In the end you have to have a sounding board and instrument that really vibrates freely. Beyond that, the specifics of body shapes and contours, are more or less window dressing, fashion -- they will have some effect, but the instrument won't work at all, you won't acheive the defining distintive sound, without meeting some minimum requirements first. > Those 16th - 17th century viols were then later altered in the > 18th century to serve new reqirements (some were even re-used as "cellos" in > the late 18th - early 19th century!). To sum up, yes to a certain degree we > can define the sound of, say, late 16th century Renaissance Italian viol or > early 17th century English or late-early 18th century French. But whether > one can define the sound of Viti's instrument as "distinct" from this > perspective, I don't know. > > > I don't know the story of St. Cecila, but there's a lot of musical > > instruments in the scene. Here's the best color reproduction I've been > able > > to find so far. > > http://www.abcgallery.com/R/raphael/raphael45.html > > Thanks very much for this link. It would be great to find a better quality > reproduction of Viti's viol! Do let us know if you know of such. I'm anxious to see a better picture too. Ian Woodfield's, "The Early History of the Viol" (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1984? Page 86, plate 52, is supposed to be the Viti viol instrument I believe (and might be where the picture came from originally). Maybe the image is clearer in the book, maybe even color. If any of you happen to have it, or know anyone who does, I'd apprecitate it . . . . Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:32 AM Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow > > What do you think about Raphaels' viol of 1514. Does it strike you as > being > > clearly early vihuela-like construction technique, from whatever parts are > > visable? > > http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Raphael_1514.jpg > > From what is there it looks like a "normal" bowed viol to me I think that's precisely the point. Raphael's viol is the earliest best true 6 string viol I've ever seen in the iconogrophy. It's also, coincidentally, the most guitar-like, and the most "viola sine arculo" like (being it's _plucked_ viola/vihuela counter-part and most direct sibling, the key link and genesis point of the six string viol which took the world by storm). It's the refinements in Raphaels machine, distinct from Viti's for example, that best illustrate and mark the point at which critical mass was reached, the needed point of perfection that made it special enough to survive and spread like wildfire across Europe. I'm also thinking that if people are wanting a good model for a _plucked viola/vihuela_ of 1500-15, Raphael's viol might be the best they'll ever find. They are the same machine essentially. I'm beginning to think it was this shape, this viola/vihuela, that went to 6 and 7 course (and single string as well), not the pea-nut or smooth curved vihuelas we usually imagine. This is the one, I suspect, that was going head to toe with lutes, 5 and then 6 course, a near replacement, almost redundant substitute. I'm also thinking that it's redundancy (in 6 course) is why it dissapeared around 1525. But the point is, it didn't disappear. It became the 6 sting viola da gamba that we came to know and love. The _bowed version_ , "viola cum arculo" survived to change the world. The six course plucked version was redundant to classic lutes so it faded away. This is my current point of view at any rate. Thanks Roger >, albeit without > strings (we have to ask Raphael why he painted it that way );-)). > > Alexander > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:32 AM Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow > > - Original Message - > From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Alexander Batov" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:26 PM > Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow > > > Hi Roger, > > > That's an interesting theory. I thought sound posts were a mid 17th > century > > invention and innovation, and a very key distinction between viols and > > violins > > There are probably other forums which delve deeper into the sound post's > early history. There is very little evidence (in form of surviving early > viols and the authentisity of certain internal elements of their > construction - sound post plates, for example) to draw any definete > conclusions here. alrighty, maybe I'll try rec.music.makers.bowed-strings > > > ...Viol's tops vibrate freely. It could be that the Viti instrument is > > a plucked viola with fretboard flat on the deck, thus not allowing the top > > to vibrate freely, so the only way to get any volume out of it is to use > > that bridge/sound-post combo. > > I'm sure there more than enough energy in a bowed string (as compared to a > plucked string) to drive even the rather stiff soundboard. well, it'll work, but it won't give you the distinct sound of a viol. > Overall ballance > of the sound is much more important in bowed instruments (as it is indeed in > plucked) and this could be one of the prime reasons to provide the Viti viol > with that particular type of "bowed bridge". In other words, to reduce the > excessive vibration of the rather light soundboard and make the sound more > even. > > > Thanks for taking the time for the drawings. I recognize your name from > your > > web site, so I know you build fluted-back vihuelas, i.e. are a luthier. > > What do you think about Raphaels' viol of 1514. Does it strike you as > being > > clearly early vihuela-like construction technique, from whatever parts are > > visable? > > http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Raphael_1514.jpg > > From what is there it looks like a "normal" bowed viol to me, albeit without > strings (we have to ask Raphael why he painted it that way );-)). I don't know the story of St. Cecila, but there's a lot of musical instruments in the scene. Here's the best color reproduction I've been able to find so far. http://www.abcgallery.com/R/raphael/raphael45.html Thanks Roger > > Alexander > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow
- Original Message - From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:39 AM Subject: FW: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck andbow > On Wed, 01 December 2004 16:46 Roger Blumberg wrote: > > > I do agree that the bowing bridge seems precariously placed, as if it's > about to fall into the C-holes (I think that's why it's pushed so far > forward, to catch a stable edge left and right), seems almost an > afterthought on the musician's part (whoever the actual owner was) or as if > the instrument better defaults to a plucked viola.< > > > One of the possible ways to explain this rather unusual position of the > "bowing bridge" is that because its right foot is let through the cut-out in > the > soundboard (in this case the lower circle of the right C-hole) and rests on > the back of the instrument. The quality of the reproduction doesn't allow to > see clearly that the left hole is actually a complete C or just consists of > a circle. The upper circle of the right C-hole is also noticeably further > from the soundboard edge. I tried to edit light and contrast / sharpness > settings of the image and it doesn't seem that it is complete, i.e. the left > foot of the bridge (as it should be in this case?) rests on the soundboard. > I've put a rough drawing here www.vihuelademano.com/Viti-viol-bridge.htm > that illustrates what I mean. A similar construction of the bridge occurs on > some traditional bowed instruments of the Middle East (If memory serves me > right, on some Bulgarian and Greek rebec-like short neck bowed fiddles). > There are some examples of this bridge construction on the instruments of > the European origin too and I personally came across 7-sting double bass > (so-called "church bass") made in 1739 in Germany (in the St-Petersburg > collection of musical instruments). In this last case the bridge is > positioned below the C-holes and the right foot of the bridge goes though a > square hole in the soundboard and rest on the back, just like the sound post > does in the violin family instruments. > > This construction has probably survived from the times when the first > attempts / experiments with the sound post were carried out. Equally so this > may well have been introduced to achieve a particular type of sound or to > balance the overall output of the instrument or indeed to avoid strong "wolf > notes" (I suppose bowed viols without soundpost have to have thicker > soundboards in order to avoid such problems). > > As for the "plucking bridge", it might have been put there to help to > re-distribute the downward pressure of strings to the lower area of the > soundboard. The other alternative - to kill vibrations of strings on the > stretch between the tailpiece and the "bowing bridge" (as somebody have > already mentioned) is also likely. In this last case only light pressure > from strings is enough to keep that second bridge in place. Equally so it > may well be an old bridge with the added one in front in order to improve > the sound, avoid "wolf notes" (right foot resting on the back would > certainly help in this) etc. > Hi Alexander; That's an interesting theory. I thought sound posts were a mid 17th century invention and innovation, and a very key distinction between viols and violins. Viol's tops vibrate freely. It could be that the Viti instrument is a plucked viola with fretboard flat on the deck, thus not allowing the top to vibrate freely, so the only way to get any volume out of it is to use that bridge/sound-post combo. Thanks for taking the time for the drawings. I recognize your name from your web site, so I know you build fluted-back vihuelas, i.e. are a luthier. What do you think about Raphaels' viol of 1514. Does it strike you as being clearly early vihuela-like construction technique, from whatever parts are visable? http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Raphael_1514.jpg Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: also Viola picture
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:28 PM Subject: Re: also Viola picture > > > > Hi Rosinfiorini; > > > > let me just clearify that the problem with the bridge in general, and the > > way you've connected those dots, is that this artist _knows_ how to draw > > good perspective. If you look at the right side edge of the viol's face, > as > > it drops down the side of instrument, all the well exicuted perspective > and > > geometry of those boxy edges and sides of the middle waist bout, you can > see > > how true this is. Now if you go back the the bridge, if it were all one > > connected piece, it's perspective (in relation to all other prespective on > > the viol) would be way off -- the work of a talented 5 year old perhaps, > but > > not Viti. That rendering would not pass muster, would never get out the > door > > (or on the wall) with Viti's name and reputation attached to it, I > believe. > > So, if for no other reason, that's why I'm not ready to accept that we're > > looking at one connected piece of bridgework. > > > > In your minds eye, imagine standing a boxed deck of cards or cigarette > pack > > upright on it's long narrow edge on top of the face of that instrument, > > perpendicular to the face of the viola. > > http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg > > can you see the kind of perspective it would create, and the kind of > > perspective Viti would have seen? He sees the correct perspective just 2 > or > > 3 inches away at the right side of the instrument, so why can't he see it > > for the bridge? > > > > Thanks > > Roger > > > > > just another bit of detail to add to the mix (I don't know here else to tack > it, so I'll put it here); > > regarding the likelihood of the Viti viola having originally been a 4 or 5 > stringed machine, and that it better defaults to a plucked viola as well > (and no kind of even 5 string bowed viol), see the width of the tail piece, > and the exteme paths and angles the strings need to take to reach the 1st > and 6th slots of the bridge, and then they head in the sharp opposite > direction after the bridge to meet the nut slots. > http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg > > Under tension those strings will want to walk up the bridge to rest closer > to center, closer to a straight line path -- tail to nut. They'll jump their > bridge slots guaranteed. > > Now compare the width of a true real dedicated and better developed/refined > 6 string gamba as again seen in the 1502 fresco grouping. I'll isolate one > instrument. > http://www.thecipher.com/AngelConsort1503single.jpg > > See the wide width of the tail behind the bridge, and the better string path > that would create? Some of that greater width is shadow I think, but it's > still much wider than on the Viti viola, wide enough for six strings to fit > comfortably, and the string path is much straighter from tail to bridge, > pretty much a straight line. > > even the tail-width of this true dedicated bowed 5 stringer is wider than > the Viti tail. > http://www.thecipher.com/oldestGamba-40p.jpg > > The Viti tail and neck width _are_ in good proportion to each other, the > plucking bridge (if it is) is also in good proportion to tail width and neck > width. But neither that bowing bridge's width, nor 6 strings, are > proportional for that instrument. > > I think maybe we are getting closer to unraveling this. > > Roger > Here's an interesting comparison: Viti's 1505 viol http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg Raphael's viol of 1514 http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Raphael_1514.jpg (again, Raphael was one of Viti's students.) Compare the look and feel, scale and proportions, design refinement, technologies, etc between these two instruments. Raphael's is the real deal and state of the art. Viti's is of an older pattern (and a later-day conversion I still believe). (And I dare any guitarist in the world to not recognize his own instrument when he sees it -- there in Raphael's painting ;') The viol Raphael painted is a stunning peice of work. You can even see that the end of the fretboard is up off the deck The edge bindings all around the body are a nice little surprise to. It's nice to see just how deep-bodied those instruments really were. You can also see the greater depth in the Borgia
Re: pegbox drawing
- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:32 AM Subject: Re: pegbox drawing > > maybe the Viti is a fresco up high on a wall, perhaps even curved surface, > > and viewed from the floor some few things might pull together a bit better? > > I don't know. > > > > Roger > Quite a bit of distortion practiced by the Mannerist painters was > deliberate, and determined by the intended hanging place for the picture. > I don't remember if earlier artists (such as Viti) were aware of this > technique. > RT I wasn't sure when it started either. Google says Mannerists are late Renaissance. But like you say, who knows when it started -- not me. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: also Viola picture
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:27 PM Subject: Re: also Viola picture > > - Original Message - > From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM > Subject: also Viola picture > > > > > > > > actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent that > it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a dark > stripe. > > I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the image > and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here: > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg > > :) > > -- > > > Hi Rosinfiorini; > > let me just clearify that the problem with the bridge in general, and the > way you've connected those dots, is that this artist _knows_ how to draw > good perspective. If you look at the right side edge of the viol's face, as > it drops down the side of instrument, all the well exicuted perspective and > geometry of those boxy edges and sides of the middle waist bout, you can see > how true this is. Now if you go back the the bridge, if it were all one > connected piece, it's perspective (in relation to all other prespective on > the viol) would be way off -- the work of a talented 5 year old perhaps, but > not Viti. That rendering would not pass muster, would never get out the door > (or on the wall) with Viti's name and reputation attached to it, I believe. > So, if for no other reason, that's why I'm not ready to accept that we're > looking at one connected piece of bridgework. > > In your minds eye, imagine standing a boxed deck of cards or cigarette pack > upright on it's long narrow edge on top of the face of that instrument, > perpendicular to the face of the viola. > http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg > can you see the kind of perspective it would create, and the kind of > perspective Viti would have seen? He sees the correct perspective just 2 or > 3 inches away at the right side of the instrument, so why can't he see it > for the bridge? > > Thanks > Roger > just another bit of detail to add to the mix (I don't know here else to tack it, so I'll put it here); regarding the likelihood of the Viti viola having originally been a 4 or 5 stringed machine, and that it better defaults to a plucked viola as well (and no kind of even 5 string bowed viol), see the width of the tail piece, and the exteme paths and angles the strings need to take to reach the 1st and 6th slots of the bridge, and then they head in the sharp opposite direction after the bridge to meet the nut slots. http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg Under tension those strings will want to walk up the bridge to rest closer to center, closer to a straight line path -- tail to nut. They'll jump their bridge slots guaranteed. Now compare the width of a true real dedicated and better developed/refined 6 string gamba as again seen in the 1502 fresco grouping. I'll isolate one instrument. http://www.thecipher.com/AngelConsort1503single.jpg See the wide width of the tail behind the bridge, and the better string path that would create? Some of that greater width is shadow I think, but it's still much wider than on the Viti viola, wide enough for six strings to fit comfortably, and the string path is much straighter from tail to bridge, pretty much a straight line. even the tail-width of this true dedicated bowed 5 stringer is wider than the Viti tail. http://www.thecipher.com/oldestGamba-40p.jpg The Viti tail and neck width _are_ in good proportion to each other, the plucking bridge (if it is) is also in good proportion to tail width and neck width. But neither that bowing bridge's width, nor 6 strings, are proportional for that instrument. I think maybe we are getting closer to unraveling this. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: pegbox drawing
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 7:59 PM Subject: pegbox drawing > If I were to draw Viti's pegbox in a correct perspective, I'd draw it > like this: > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Violapeg.jpg > but this is only my five-minutes/fifty cents (sleepy) scratch about three > times faster than what it took to draw this trash with the mouse yesterd > ay-haha). > > Of course, we are just being silly (I imagine:) talking about perspective > concerning these artists: I feel that their manierism and period tende > ncies that come with their pieces are something very neat and radiates like > that even stronger this scent from renaissance times (hey that's only ye > sterday!) > LatersJ) > R your's _is_ getting closer -- just a few more classes ;') [just teasing you, it's good enough for a quicky] maybe the Viti is a fresco up high on a wall, perhaps even curved surface, and viewed from the floor some few things might pull together a bit better? I don't know. Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Viola perspective
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: Viola perspective > > > > > Hi Roger, i just got home now late and will read your messages tomorrow--sorry for the delay. > Now i only red the last one and will reply quickly to it: > No doubt it will be a leaning bridge, or badly drawn (perspectivewise) bridge, the way it is on the picture. However, i don't know what the reputation of this artist Viti is but i can do better than him even while sleeping (am joking, not being rude-hehe). Notice that his perspective of the pegbox of the instument is completely twisted already: the pegbox is twisted and it looks as if it should belong to another viola that is seen much more from the right side view. I like the drawing though, doesn't matter the "faults" :)) > > yes, I agree, and noticed, that the peg head is not the best of renderings. It's foreshortening is also either a bit off or it might actually better coincide with and aqurately reflect a peghead originally designed to hold only 4 or 5 pegs, hence it is actually shorter in scale than it could or should be. The bow hair edge might be tucked under a bit more too. We'll see, who knows. You'all could be right. Roger > > Hi Rosinfiorini; > > let me just clearify that the problem with the bridge in general, and the > > way you've connected those dots, is that this artist _knows_ how to draw > > good perspective. If you look at the right side edge of the viol's face, as > > it drops down the side of instrument, all the well exicuted perspective and > > geometry of those boxy edges and sides of the middle waist bout, you can see > > how true this is. Now if you go back the the bridge, if it were all one > > connected piece, it's perspective (in relation to all other prespective on > > the viol) would be way off -- the work of a talented 5 year old perhaps, but > > not Viti. That rendering would not pass muster, would never get out the door > > (or on the wall) with Viti's name and reputation attached to it, I believe. > > So, if for no other reason, that's why I'm not ready to accept that we're > > looking at one connected piece of bridgework. > > > > In your minds eye, imagine standing a boxed deck of cards or cigarette pack > > upright on it's long narrow edge on top of the face of that instrument, > > perpendicular to the face of the viola. > > http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg > > can you see the kind of perspective it would create, and the kind of > > perspective Viti would have seen? He sees the correct perspective just 2 or > > 3 inches away at the right side of the instrument, so why can't he see it > > for the bridge? > > > > Thanks > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > > Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr > > > --
Re: also Viola picture
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:27 PM Subject: Re: also Viola picture > > - Original Message - > From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM > Subject: also Viola picture > > > > > > > > actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent that > it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a dark > stripe. > > I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the image > and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here: > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg > > :) > > -- > > > Hi Rosinfiorini; > > let me just clearify that the problem with the bridge in general, and the > way you've connected those dots, is that this artist _knows_ how to draw > good perspective. If you look at the right side edge of the viol's face, as > it drops down the side of instrument, all the well exicuted perspective and > geometry of those boxy edges and sides of the middle waist bout, you can see > how true this is. Now if you go back the the bridge, if it were all one > connected piece, it's perspective (in relation to all other prespective on > the viol) would be way off -- the work of a talented 5 year old perhaps, but > not Viti. That rendering would not pass muster, would never get out the door > (or on the wall) with Viti's name and reputation attached to it, I believe. > So, if for no other reason, that's why I'm not ready to accept that we're > looking at one connected piece of bridgework. > > In your minds eye, imagine standing a boxed deck of cards or cigarette pack > upright on it's long narrow edge on top of the face of that instrument, > perpendicular to the face of the viola. > http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg > can you see the kind of perspective it would create, and the kind of > perspective Viti would have seen? He sees the correct perspective just 2 or > 3 inches away at the right side of the instrument, so why can't he see it > for the bridge? > > Thanks > Roger > I'm sending these bits below, just because I happened to do a quick check on the date of Durer's perspective. He published his book in 1525, 20 years or so after the Viti viol was painted, but he had traveled to Italy to learn about prespective in the first place, which investigations had been underway in Italy for quite some time. This is just to point out that the "idea" of good rendering was very much "in the air", a point of pride, effort, and study, in Renaissance Italy -- contemporary with Viti. Roger http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/durer.html Durer's Polyhedra Albrecht Durer, the remarkable German renaissance printmaker (1471-1528), made an important contribution to the polyhedral literature in his 1525 book, Underweysung der Messung, available in English translation as Painter's Manual. It was one of the first books to teach the methods of perspective, and was highly regarded throughout the sixteenth century. Durer travelled to Italy to learn perspective and wanted to publish the methods so they were not kept secret among a few artists. Who he learned from is not known, but Luca Pacioli is a likely possibility. Some of the techniques and illustrations follow very closely the work of Piero della Francesca. http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/pacioli.html Luca Pacioli (1445 - 1514, sometimes "Paciolo") is the central figure in this painting (by Jacopo de Barbari*, 1495). Perhaps no other work so epitomizes the deep Renaissance connection between art and mathematics. Pacioli (a Franciscan friar, shown in his robes) stands at a table filled with geometrical tools (slate, chalk, compass, dodecahedron model, etc.), illustrating a theorem from Euclid, while examining a beautiful glass rhombicuboctahedron half-filled with water. Every aspect of the picture has been composed meaningfully, and art historians have analyzed it at length, yet the figure at right remains a mystery. For two rather different conclusions, see the references by M. Davis (who suspects the figure is a self-portrait of the painter) and N. MacKinnon (who proposes that the figure is Albrecht Durer---compare Durer's 1498 self-portrait). http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/piero.html Piero della Francesca's Polyhedra Piero della Francesca (1410(?) - 1492) was an outstanding 15th century Renaissance artist, both a mathematician and a painter. His gen
Re: also Viola picture
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM Subject: also Viola picture > > > actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent that it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a dark stripe. > I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the image and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg > :) > -- Hi Rosinfiorini; let me just clearify that the problem with the bridge in general, and the way you've connected those dots, is that this artist _knows_ how to draw good perspective. If you look at the right side edge of the viol's face, as it drops down the side of instrument, all the well exicuted perspective and geometry of those boxy edges and sides of the middle waist bout, you can see how true this is. Now if you go back the the bridge, if it were all one connected piece, it's perspective (in relation to all other prespective on the viol) would be way off -- the work of a talented 5 year old perhaps, but not Viti. That rendering would not pass muster, would never get out the door (or on the wall) with Viti's name and reputation attached to it, I believe. So, if for no other reason, that's why I'm not ready to accept that we're looking at one connected piece of bridgework. In your minds eye, imagine standing a boxed deck of cards or cigarette pack upright on it's long narrow edge on top of the face of that instrument, perpendicular to the face of the viola. http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg can you see the kind of perspective it would create, and the kind of perspective Viti would have seen? He sees the correct perspective just 2 or 3 inches away at the right side of the instrument, so why can't he see it for the bridge? Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: also Viola picture
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM Subject: also Viola picture > > > actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent that it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a dark stripe. > I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the image and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg > :) but then, it might be a _broken_ bridge, in two pieces, and perhaps even a bridge from a larger instrument, because even the remaining piece being used currently is raising the strings too high and too wide. Maybe the bridge is from a larger, later, dedicated (and 6 stringed) bowed viola and the only way to make it fit is to break off the top half, use it, save the broke bit where we see it stored now? If you were to stack those two bits on top of each other I think the action would then be outrageously high. If you stood the broken base up and placed the bowing edge back on top of it, that might narrow the percieved string spacing as it approaches the neck and on towards the nut, though. I 'm still thinking this is a conversion chop-job of some kind. Probably an older 5 string plucked viola repurposed as a 6 string gamba. The fretboard looks flat-on-the-deck, and that diamond rosette detail at the foot of the fretboard is seen in a narrow band of time on 5 course lutes (if I recall right from Van Edwards' web site), something like 1450-90. Look at the side profile of this 1503 gamba (far left) . . . http://www.thecipher.com/violAngelConsort1503lrg.jpg . . . see the elevated fretboard (lets the top vibrate more freely) and dished out face. That appears to me to be a later design refinement -- one that was to be retained thereafter (once it cought on and spread widely). See the neck joint on this reproduction 17th cent viol, elevated, wide, and radiused . . http://www.thecipher.com/viol_neck_joint.jpg that's what I mean about the difference between the fretboard on the Viti instrument being flat, and flat on the deck, guitar and lute style, not elevated in later gamba style. The Viti viol looks old technology by comparison, guitaresque, and maybe even 5 string originally -- the neck is just too narrow. It's also proportionally very long, long like the Borgia plucked viola http://www.thecipher.com/violasineacrulo_Borgia1493bw.jpg If not a broken bowing bridge in two pieces, it could still be a plucking bridge tucked away and an ill fitting, ill seated, entirely improvised bowing bridge currently in place. I don't know any more ;') I sure wish we could see a good photo of the painting and in color. That would remove a lot of speculation and wrong alleys. whatever it is, it sure is strange, and interesting -- that the artist left it like that, purposely not prettying it up. It certainly does add interest -- to whit this discussion and incident ;') -- as yet unresoved. I never expected nor even wanted to find a dual bridge specimen (if that's what it is). That the two types, plucked and bowed, are so obvouisly related though, so close in anatomy, tuned and played the same way, played by the same persons, that we can even talk about them so easily in the same breath, is really the point. Any way you look at it they are very close siblings. Roger > -- > > Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: also Viola picture
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:59 PM Subject: also Viola picture > > > actually, i made the image paler and enlarges and it becomes apparent that it is simply the way the bridge is drawn (its shadow) that looks like a dark stripe. > I'm not very good at drawing with the mouse, but here i enlarged the image and drew the way the bridge actually is shaped (IMHO).. it's here: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/raydimitry/imagini/Viola].jpg > :) > -- Hi again; but this one is pure fantasy ;') I know you spent a lot of time on that, but that's really a stretch my freind. Thanks Roger > > Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Viola picture
- Original Message - From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 7:38 PM Subject: Viola picture > Hi, if i were the lil angel in this picture(http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg), the dark stripe that you see parallel to the bridge wouldn't be a second bridge but a stripe/piece of cloth intertwined in the strings portions after the bridge to prevent them from buzzing and reverberating in a prasite way the vibrations of the music. > Probably this is the same reason that this lady has decorated her viola: http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Bild-VdgG/Vdg_musscher.jpg > Some other pics of violas: http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Seiten/education/Violin_Vdg_Families.htm > -- > > Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr > Hi Rosinfiorini; I appreciate the thought, but don't think that it's fabrique woven among the strings. It's definately completely under all strings. It could possibly be a rolled up wad of something stuffed under, but it seems to have a lot of straight-line geometry to it. The magified jpeg blow-up _is_ introducing some straight-line atrifacts (horizontal and vertical) in the blow up, but even the original detail pic looks very geometrical to me. Thanks Roger > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting >Why would a second, flatter bridge be necessary to convert from bowing to plucking? A >flatter bridge would raise the strings unequally above the fingerboard (higher at the edges), >making left-hand fingerings, especially at higher positions, rather difficult. Hi Leonard; Fretboards were probably flatter in general (little radius). Also, ideal string spacing is very important to both plucking and bowing, and each has it's own optimums. String tension, at the respective touch points, also has to be factored. >Could this extra bridge instead represent a bridge for sympathetic strings (passing beneath >the main bridge) which might have been too fine for the artist to render? One of my freinds, Jonathan Wilson (builder of bowed guitars), suggested this to me. I told him that I didn't think viola d'amour were developed yet (only later in the century) and that the wire strings needed for such an instrument were also probably not available. [I see you'all have a thread here on wire strings but I haven't read through it yet]. Also, there's no sign of the additional tuning pegs needed for such an instrument. Most second small bridges on d'amours are generally in _front_ of the bowing bridge, I belive (not that this couldn't be reversed if the face was comparatively flat). Thanks Roger > > Regards, > Leonard Williams > > > From: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2004/12/01 Wed AM 09:30:40 EST > To: LUTE-LIST <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: FW: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and > bow c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting > > From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Newsgroups: rec.music.early > > > Hi all; > > I've been scouring the available viol and vihuela iconography, mostly > online, looking for the best connections between viols and guitars (plucked > vihuelas and violas and bowed viola da gambas) in the visual record. Adding > the > "viola sine arculo" plucked viola (violin-shape bodied guitar lets call it) > to the mix is the first necessary connector (thus moving away from the more > typically assiciated "pea-nut" shaped vihuela variant). From there, a wholly > unexpected find, a 2 bridge viola (6 string gamba) in a painting by Timoteo > Viti, c.1500 (Madonna and child). The blow-up clearly shows that the smaller > object behind the bowing bridge is a low, flat topped, plucking bridge, > laying on it's side behind the bowing bridge and tucked under the strings > closer to the tail. The plucking bridge has clearly defined angled tappers > at both ends and on the underside cut-out, and has well defined flat > bottomed feet as well. I'm guessing that neither bridge was fixed, you just > swap them around as desired. The action (string height) with the bowing > bridge in place (as shown in the picture) does appear high, which makes > sence if you have a fixed non-adjustable neck, i.e. it's to be expected in a > two-in-one compromise instrument. If you are playing only within the upper > frets portion of the neck, the higher action at the bridge is less of an > issue -- because the string height at the nut is still low. > > Initial detail of painting (as recieved) [via French Federation of Viola da > gamba Societie's web site] is here . . . > http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg > blow-up detail of bridges is here . . . > http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Viti_2bridge-c1500detail.jpg > > main page context on my site -- viola sine arculo section and series of > pictures is the relevant spot. That page is very graphic heavy so it will > take time to load. > http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-2.html > > Most viola da gamba historians, societies, and web sites, now suggest (if > not declare) that viola da gamba are probably decendant from "some kind" of > Spanish/Italian early guitar (vihuela viola). I agree -- and have agreed for > quite some time but via other kinds of proofs and logics. While most VDGS's > are finally making this claim (vihuela to viol) none seem to be > diligently looking for nor displaying _vihuela/viola_ iconography > side-by-side with the early viola da gamba iconography, all in one place and > at the same time, so we can really *see* the visual _connections_ in the > record between instruments. This is what I've been trying to do and show, > and I be
Re: FW: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow c.1500, Timoteo Viti painting
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:32:35 -0800 Daniel F Heiman writes: > Re: FW: Key discovery -- two bridge early viola da gamba, pluck and bow c.1500, > Timoteo Viti painting > Daniel F Heiman > Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:32:35 -0800 > The layout of the instrument is screwed up. The purpose of the bouts is > to allow clearance for the movement of the bow. In this picture, the > "bowing bridge" is at the location where the bow should be contacting the > strings. Makes one suspicious of the detail consciousness of the painter. > Daniel Hi Daniel; I'm Roger Blumberg (I wrote the original message which Roman forwarded to the list -- thanks Roman). And hello to all -- while we're at it. regarding the bridge location, many pictures, old and new, viols and violins, show the bridge located 1/3 to 1/2 up into the waist bout cut-outs, particularly on smaller instruments, so this instrument is not so far off. The artist was one of Raphael's teachers so he's no slouch. I do agree that the bowing bridge seems precariously placed, as if it's about to fall into the C-holes (I think that's why it's pushed so far forward, to catch a stable edge left and right), seems almost an afterthought on the musician's part (whoever the actual owner was) or as if the instrument better defaults to a plucked viola. The end of the fretboard seems close to the face of the instrument too, like a plucked instrument, not elevated nor angled back much. And as I said, the action does look very high, which detail the artist _did_ catch -- see bass string. The narrow width of the plucking bridge seems more to scale with the width of the neck. The bowing bridge both elevates and spreads the strings for better individual bowing, but seems to nearly push them off the side edges of the lower part of the fretboard. It may well be a conversion in general, i.e.it may have begun life as a 5 string (neck is narrow), then six, then six bowed, I don't know. None of these things detract from the notion that a single player both plucked and bowed his or her viola. Maybe this person was making due. In all, the odd configuration might be more supportive of the argument than not -- particularly if people are thinking bowed violas evolved _from_ the plucked models, i.e. it _should_ exhibit more of the plucked details in look and feel than the later and more refined dedicated bowed instruments. Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
