[LUTE] Sandro Zanetti 10 course lute
Hi Folks, I am selling my 10 course lute made in 1976 by Swiss luthier, Sandro Zanetti. It comes with a hard shell case. It is very playable with comfortable action. Asking $1,850.00 I will not ship it, so local only. Sorry! The lute is in Brooklyn New York. If anyone in the New York area is interested, just drop me an email: terli...@aol.com. Just too much for me to manage the time to adjust from guitar to lute. When I play the lute, I stop playing guitar for weeks at a time ... and the guitar is my bread and butter. Best, Mark Delpriora -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Torah
Alkan of course... but I heard it was the Talmud that did him in. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Get the new AOL app: [1]mail.mobile.aol.com On Thursday, August 1, 2019, Alain Veylit wrote: Since Howard mentions the Torah and jeopardy, here is our summer quiz/jeopardy question: This 19th century pianist and composer died crushed by the fall of his private library's (heavy) bookshelf as he was trying to reach the Torah on the top shelf? (High aspirations sometimes get you crushed under the weight...) Alain On 8/1/19 1:14 PM, G. C. wrote: >Ha-ha :)) >Way too rich for my intelligence Howard. I'm afraid I don't have the >necessary "anglican" baggage to get those answers. >In another vein, the 50th aniversary of the Woodstock festival got >cancelled! I don't mind about Miley Cyrus, but Santana 50 years later >would surely have been historically correct. >Best >G. > >On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 10:04 PM howard posner ><[1][2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > > > On Aug 1, 2019, at 10:42 AM, G. C. <[2][3]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >Always happy for answers > And I'm happy to oblige with some of my favorite answers: > "It's in his kiss" > "O, reason not the need: our basest beggars > Are in the poorest thing superfluous." > "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" > "Put a piece of cheese on the floor and you'll find out." > "!" > "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the > entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go learn." > "I knew if I stayed around long enough, something like this would > happen" > No prizes will be awarded for knowing the questions; this isn't > "Jeopardy!" > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:[5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com >2. mailto:[6]kalei...@gmail.com >3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://mail.mobile.aol.com/ 2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 3. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 6. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute
In an Interview, Bream said he was knocked over by a neighbor's dog. Also, FYI, he has recently suffered a stroke and is in a wheelchair. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Get the new AOL app: [1]mail.mobile.aol.com On Friday, June 21, 2019, John Mardinly wrote: Left hand. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > On Jun 21, 2019, at 1:04 PM, John Mardinly <[2]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote: > > Several years ago, Bream injured the A finger of his last hand and can no longer play. I saw a photo in a guitar magazine that showed a finger swollen to twice the normal diameter. There was no mention of how the injury occurred. > > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > > > > >> On Jun 20, 2019, at 10:49 AM, Paul Overell <[3]p...@bayleaf.org.uk> wrote: >> >> >> On 19/06/2019 23:18, Susan Price wrote: >>> I would like to point out that Julian Bream is still alive (born 1933). >>> He has always been my favorite guitarist. I often thought it was a real >>> pity that he never played baroque lute. That woulda been amazing. >> >> Julian Bream is also an honorary member of the (British) Lute Society, >> where, some years ago, he gave lute master classes to some of the >> members in front of an enthusiastic audience (standing room only). >> >> Regards >> >> -- >> Paul Overell >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwICaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n 1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=i66 79wAJ8GNXT6L1_SDqv6tZLIkOlTomGTukYqDHzlY&s=D10EH96xcFJ2eVBlcUT7uFAXPP6j TkBmTOxb6R4I21U&e= > > > -- References 1. http://mail.mobile.aol.com/ 2. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu 3. mailto:p...@bayleaf.org.uk 4. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwICaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=i6679wAJ8GNXT6L1_SDqv6tZLIkOlTomGTukYqDHzlY&s=D10EH96xcFJ2eVBlcUT7uFAXPP6jTkBmTOxb6R4I21U&e=
[LUTE] Hopkinson Smith plays Ponce on the lute.
Hi Folks, I am sure many of you will be interested to hear Hopkinson Smith play guitar music of Manuel Ponce on the lute. This music was originally originally written for Segovia.The recording is on Spotify. Here is a link to CD baby: [1]https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/stefanogrondona ~Mark -- References 1. https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/stefanogrondona To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Matanya Orphee
Hi All, I have not seen this posted here: Guitarist, publisher, editor, scholar Matanya Orphee passed away on November 6th at 6:00 p.m. Matanya was an extraordinary man: incredibly productive, controversial, combative and generous. He made some great contributions to the guitar literature not least of which is advocating and publishing and even commissioning works for Russian 7 string guitar. He also published some lute editions. I am grateful to him as the publisher of 5 of my works. I believe Matanya had the rare distinction of being kicked off this list. http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/ Best, Mark Delpriora -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lute set up
Hi All, Any suggestions for a luthier in or around New York City that can set up my 10 course lute. The lute is made by Sandro Zanetti. It needs new gut frets. The frets on it now are nylon. It may need some other minor work, too Best, Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Publication of the lute sonatas of Antonino Reggio (1725-c1800)
Congrats!!!
~Mark
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hart
To: lute
Sent: Mon, Dec 23, 2013 8:32 am
Subject: [LUTE] Publication of the lute sonatas of Antonino Reggio (1725-c1800)
I am planning on publishing the first volume of the sonatas for lute
and bass early in the new year. For more information and
pre-publication offers contact me on [1]i...@edizionear.com or visit
[2]www.edizionear.com in the New Year.
A very happy Christmas and best wishes for the New Year.
Anthony Hart
[3]anthony.h...@gmail.com --
References
1. javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'i...@edizionear.com');
2. http://www.edizionear.com/
3. mailto:anthony.h...@gmail.com
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
[LUTE] [LUTE] Segovia and Pujol (was Bream Collection…)
I hired Paul to conduct a masterclass at the Manhattan School of Music. A student played the "Six Pieces for Lute from the Renaissance" for him. These pieces were standard works for a time and Segovia often started his concerts with these pieces. He made them famous because he performed them so much and recorded them too Paul said it was this suite of pieces that inspired him to find a lute because it had "lute" in the title and he was playing it on the guitar. So he wondered what a lute was and looked for one⦠Makes sense, right? He said nothing about Eric Clapton and the lute although I know he was inspired to play electric guitar because of Clapton. The masterclass may have been recorded. Do you guys need documentation? If so, I'll check if it was indeed recorded. -Original Message- From: Christopher Wilke To: r.turovsky ; Mark Delpriora Cc: lute Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 9:22 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Segovia and Pujol (was Bream Collectionâ¦) Actually, Paul told me that his idol as a young player was Eric Clapton and he was thrilled to have finally met him at the Grammys a few years ago. Maybe Paul was also inspired by Segovia, but I don't recall him ever mentioning him. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 12/16/13, Mark Delpriora wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Segovia and Pujol (was Bream Collectionâ¦) To: "r.turov...@gmail.com" Cc: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Date: Monday, December 16, 2013, 6:24 AM No , but Paul Odette was. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 16, 2013, at 5:01 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: > So, Respighi was exposed to Chilesotti through Segovia's efforts? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 15, 2013, at 9:20 PM, terli...@aol.com wrote: > >> >> As far as his influence on the lute: I heard Paul O'dette say that it was the "Six Lute Pieces from the Renaissance" based on Chilesotti (and made famous by Segovia) that inspired O'dette to seek out a lute. He was studying them on the guitar and he took the title of the piece seriously enough to find a lute. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Segovia and Pujol (was Bream Collection…)
I think it was clear that I was referring to the very standard intermediate level suite for guitar "Six Lute Pieces from the Renaissance" . All literate guitarists know this work. -Original Message--From: r.turovsky To: Mark Delpriora Cc: lute Sent: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 7:21 am Subject: Re: [LUTE] Segovia and Pujol (was Bream Collectionâ¦) Your paragraph implies that Chilesotti was made famous by Segivia, and not by Respighi. RT sent from my payPhone On 12/16/2013 6:24 AM, Mark Delpriora wrote: > No , but Paul Odette was. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 16, 2013, at 5:01 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: > >> So, Respighi was exposed to Chilesotti through Segovia's efforts? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 15, 2013, at 9:20 PM, terli...@aol.com wrote: >> >>> As far as his influence on the lute: I heard Paul O'dette say that it was the "Six Lute Pieces from the Renaissance" based on Chilesotti (and made famous by Segovia) that inspired O'dette to seek out a lute. He was studying them on the guitar and he took the title of the piece seriously enough to find a lute. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Segovia and Pujol (was Bream Collection…)
In defense of Segovia, I played in Segovia masterclasses in 1982 at the Metropolitan Museum and in 1987 at the Manhattan School of Music and I found him to be a very fine coach. He knew the music I played backward and forward. Segovia was at his best when you were playing his editions. When I played Albeniz' Sevilla in a transcription by Barrueco and Segovia did not seem pleased. He learned this piece at the feet of Llobet in the 20s or before and I am sure the version he knew was hard wired into his brain and what I was playing simply sounded wrong. As far as his influence on the lute: I heard Paul O'dette say that it was the "Six Lute Pieces from the Renaissance" based on Chilesotti (and made famous by Segovia) that inspired O'dette to seek out a lute. He was studying them on the guitar and he took the title of the piece seriously enough to find a lute. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Biography of Diana Poulton
How interesting about Tom Poulton. I look forward to this book even more! I wonder if Eric Gill was in their circle. -Original Message- From: Geoff Gaherty To: Lute Sent: Thu, Sep 19, 2013 5:52 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Biography of Diana Poulton On 19/09/13 5:45 PM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: > Indeed! Just try googling her husband Frank! Oops, that should be Tom. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
Hi All, The guitarist and rock star, Jan Akkerman, had success performing his lute during rock concerts for large audiences in the 1970s. He still performs these days. Lute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZh9YPk3ZNM Rock band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFDW9b_ejfI jazzed up Dowland : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00iS7uMNAs Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Daniel Shoskes To: Dan Winheld Cc: David Tayler ; lute Sent: Fri, Aug 9, 2013 7:24 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness No disrespect meant at all to David Tayler. That was squarely delivered to the people making those comments about whichever videos he was talking about. The original quote: >>> Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about >>> the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups >>> as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the >>> same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the >>> same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub >>> after an orchestra rehearsal. "Did you see this. OMG how could they not >>> know?" What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but >>> they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same >>> commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a >>> litany. On Aug 9, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: > "Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and with appropriate ornaments and affect." > > Yes it does. If you are stopped cold in your tracks by an unfamiliar clef, that will end the collaboration instantly. Not too much will happen in the way of ornamentation either. Of course, it has been said that what occurs between the notes, and the silences in music, also can have the greatest meaning- so I will give "affect" a pass. > > "What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like "they > played the wrong chord and didn't even know"?" > > Is this disrespect necessary? Dr. Tayler has been in the music business for a lifetime- we have no knowledge of every single incident that transpired in all of his engagements over a long & busy professional career. I've seen/heard some pretty cringeworthy Early Music performances myself, but more in the earlier days of the Early Music revival. There have been a number of somewhat different "Bubbles" that we have all lived in; both in time, place, and circumstances. I have a couple hair of raising stories myself- playing the lute outside for some homeless people in the S.F. Fillmore district, gigs in honky-tonk rural bars, and one in a maximum security ward of a psychiatric institution in Manhattan. Wrong chords in bad places are really not an impossibility. > > Dan > > On 8/9/2013 2:35 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: >> I don't know who is living in the bigger bubble. I know lots of Early Music performers from diverse countries and backgrounds not to mention all the exposure from being on the Board of Directors of 3 music organizations (EMA, Apollo's Fire, LSA). I have never heard the laughably ridiculous characterizations you quote. I guess those lute players really are bottom of the barrel, directing BEMF, Tempesta di Mari and such. Really should replace O'Dette and Stubbs in Boston with a couple of cornetto players, that will finally raise the bar. >> >> This "no short cuts" business reminds me of what my Medical School anatomy professor told us about the good ol days. When he was a student, your anatomy exam included sticking your hand in a closed bag containing several small bones of the foot which you had to identify by feel. Fundamental skill? You could identify those bones by smell and still be unable to cut your way out of a paper bag in the operating room. It also reminds me of the life story of the great German baritone Thomas Quasthoff who was denied entrance to his local conservatory because all singers had to be able to play the piano. >> >> What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like "they played the wrong chord and didn't even know"? I guess in their conservatory, they were taught to telegraph facially to the audience whenever they played parallel fifths or a wrong figure because of course that's the only way anyone in the audience would know. >> >> Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and with appropriate ornaments and affect. The stultifying performances of many a conservatory graduate can attest to that. I suggest a good reason for smart talented lute players NOT to have the same skill sets of these "top musicians" is that in fact they are smart and talented and have more fruitful things to do with their
[LUTE] Franciscus Bossinensis
Hi All Can someone please point me the way to a digital copy of: "Tenori et contrabbassi intabulati..." Book I e II by Franciscus Bossinensis (Petrucci 1509 and 1511) . Best, Mark Delpriora -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] new publication
At the risk of annoying the resident guitar dislikers on the list, I would like to inform you of a new publication (or 2). http://www.editionsorphee.com/solos/Delpri-variazioni.html and http://www.editionsorphee.com/solos/Haydn-fugue.html Thanks!! Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Guitar technique
BTW, some of you may be interested in this: http://www.editionsorphee.com/solos/Haydn-fugue.html Best, Mark -Original Message- From: terli...@aol.com To: ma...@rowan.edu; dwinh...@comcast.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Nov 7, 2010 8:04 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Guitar technique The 1928 manuscript for the 12 Studies is available from the Villa-Lobos Museum. The 1928 version is heavily fingered by VL and has many details and some sections that are missing from the later Eschig version. ( For example Etude 10 has a couple of extra minutes of entirely new music not fund in the Eschig) Eschig plans to publish a new critical edition based on the manuscript but it has been a long time comin' It has already done so with the preludes and the suite populaire (which BTW has a newly found movement) Many guitarists are now playing from the 1928 version and the manuscripts are circulating -Original Message- From: Mayes, Joseph To: Daniel Winheld ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Nov 7, 2010 6:49 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Guitar technique Hi Dan The HVL collected edition corrects the obvious note mistakes, but leaves the ambiguous (at best) harmonics notation and the original fingering - which is sparse, to say the least, and often wrong. Best Regards, Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Winheld [dwinh...@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:32 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] OT: Guitar technique A question for the players of standard modern classical guitar on this list (I am on no other)- I have not played classical guitar (nor owned one) since 1975, so don't even know what e-list, forum or whatever to consult. Can any of you tell me if there are editions of the collected guitar works of Villa-Lobos that give detailed, explicit L.H. fingerings beyond the few hints that Villa-Lobos himself provided? Specifically, some of the Etudes have passages that are ambiguous to me (Etude #2 especially), and it's been a hell of a long time since I played this stuff. Some of them I never attempted. I started playing the Etude #1 by Heitor Villa-Lobos about six weeks ago for extra practice in thumb-under technique on my new 8 course lute. (One can run the right hand pattern with any chord, chord progression, or just open strings for practice, of course). I Have been captivated completely by this exotic (to me) Brazilian classical/pop &"Jungle" music- it's very nice vacation from all the usual repertoires, and so much accessible on the familiar instrument. Thanks for any help- Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: OT: Guitar technique
The 1928 manuscript for the 12 Studies is available from the Villa-Lobos Museum. The 1928 version is heavily fingered by VL and has many details and some sections that are missing from the later Eschig version. ( For example Etude 10 has a couple of extra minutes of entirely new music not fund in the Eschig) Eschig plans to publish a new critical edition based on the manuscript but it has been a long time comin' It has already done so with the preludes and the suite populaire (which BTW has a newly found movement) Many guitarists are now playing from the 1928 version and the manuscripts are circulating -Original Message- From: Mayes, Joseph To: Daniel Winheld ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Nov 7, 2010 6:49 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Guitar technique Hi Dan The HVL collected edition corrects the obvious note mistakes, but leaves the ambiguous (at best) harmonics notation and the original fingering - which is sparse, to say the least, and often wrong. Best Regards, Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel Winheld [dwinh...@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:32 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] OT: Guitar technique A question for the players of standard modern classical guitar on this list (I am on no other)- I have not played classical guitar (nor owned one) since 1975, so don't even know what e-list, forum or whatever to consult. Can any of you tell me if there are editions of the collected guitar works of Villa-Lobos that give detailed, explicit L.H. fingerings beyond the few hints that Villa-Lobos himself provided? Specifically, some of the Etudes have passages that are ambiguous to me (Etude #2 especially), and it's been a hell of a long time since I played this stuff. Some of them I never attempted. I started playing the Etude #1 by Heitor Villa-Lobos about six weeks ago for extra practice in thumb-under technique on my new 8 course lute. (One can run the right hand pattern with any chord, chord progression, or just open strings for practice, of course). I Have been captivated completely by this exotic (to me) Brazilian classical/pop &"Jungle" music- it's very nice vacation from all the usual repertoires, and so much accessible on the familiar instrument. Thanks for any help- Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: OT: 19th C guitar
Hi All, one quick note: If you include the recent developments in guitar construction, for example the guitars of Smallman and Dammann, than one must say that, at least, certain modern guitars are indeed louder than 19th century guitars. best, mark -Original Message- From: Mayes, Joseph To: Edward Mast ; Bruno Correia Cc: Lute List Sent: Mon, Nov 1, 2010 12:58 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: 19th C guitar I have some experience with both 19th C. guitars and modern classical guitars. I find the main difference to be in the amount of sustain rather than the volume. I think this is the result of fan bracing. As Christopher pointed out, this bracing is not a new thing. 19th C. guitars with fan bracing - ie some Panormo guitars - tend to sound very much like the modern classical. The poster who said that classical guitars will never fill a large hall (soundwise) is quite correct - but somehow not relevant. Joseph Mayes On 11/1/10 10:54 AM, "Edward Mast" wrote: > It seems to me that the sound of an instrument should not be considered > without considering the music it's playing. Composers generally are very > aware of the sound of the instrument(s) for which they're writing. Some > transcriptions work well, but many (in my opinion) don't. The modern > classical guitar has repertory in which it sounds natural and very satisfying. > Other repertory - written for lute or other instruments - does not sound > natural or satisfying played on the guitar (again, in my opinion). Of course > this has to do not only with the different sounds of the instruments, but with > the techniques employed in playing them. And so on with all instruments. > On Nov 1, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Bruno Correia wrote: > >> Christopher, >> >> >> >> I agree entirely with your coments. Classical guitars are very tense >> instruments, nails are required if you want to play with good volume. >> Btw they never fill a big hall (soundwise)... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2010/11/1 Christopher Wilke <[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com> >> >> There are a lot of myths in the guitar community about how and why >> the modern instrument came about. The thought that the modern >> guitar is to the 19th century guitar what the modern piano is to a >> fortepiano has been repeated so often that people believe it. >> A modern classical guitar is not at all loud. Try comparing the >> sound of a 19th century guitar without nails to a modern guitar >> played without nails. The 19th century guitar will not only sound >> louder, but balanced (assuming the guitar is decent). The modern >> guitar will sound weak and muddy with a very boomy bass and >> virtually no treble definition. The 19th century guitar is >> therefore actually the louder of the two instruments. >> The key ingredient to the modern guitar's sound is fingernails. I >> believe that in order to get more volume, performers started playing >> "standard" 19th century guitars with nails, but found the sound >> unpleasantly strident. (Aguado, for example, used nails. His duo >> partner, Sor, however, did not.) The solution came in making a >> bigger body, which did not add volume in itself - it merely mellowed >> out the tone to allow for nail playing. Fan bracing was also used >> to make the timbre less pingy, but this was nothing new; it had been >> used on baroque lutes long before. All of these developments took >> place with gut strings. Nylon strings came about post-WWII and >> allowed for greater string tension and more forceful playing. >> I personally enjoy the sound of a modern classical. It makes a >> beautiful and effective solo instrument. >> Chris >> Christopher Wilke >> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer >> [2]www.christopherwilke.com >> >> --- On Mon, 11/1/10, Jelma van Amersfoort <[3]jel...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> From: Jelma van Amersfoort <[4]jel...@gmail.com> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: 19th C guitar >>> To: "Suzanne Angevine" <[5]suzanne.angev...@gmail.com> >>> Cc: "Lute List" <[6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> >>> Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 4:28 AM >> >>> I think making the body bigger >>> doesn't automatically make the guitar >>> louder. It mostly emphasizes the lower >>> harmonics/fundamentals and the >>> bass side of the guitar. I think they were after a >>> different (darker, >>> more homogenous) timbre rather than a louder sound, in the >>> late 19th >>> and early 20th century. Is a very interesting question, but >>> also hard >>> because there are so many different styles of guitar making >>> in that >>> time. >>> >>> Early 19th century guitars work as well in halls as modern >>> classical >>> guitars, I find, but by different means: they (most of >>> them) seem to >>> be more treble-like, and more 'piercing' compared to (most) >>> modern >>> classical guitars. >>> >>> Hartelijke groeten, Jelma van Amersfoort >>>
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Yes, all of what you write is well known among educated guitarists. A couple of points: 1) Llobet did not have Ginastera in mind, but for sure he had Broqua and Villa Lobos in mind . Development of the -a- finger is very important in modern literature: witness the pimami arpeggios in Etude 11 by Vill-Lobos ( a pattern used also in the 19th century). http://www.muslib.se/ebibliotek/boije/pdf/Boije%20258.pdf 2) Segovia occasionally played Tarrega's tremolo p-i-m-i. many other guitarists do also these days...those who find that their -a- finger is not up to the task. And indeed, Llobet turned Carcassi study 7 into a tremolo study. Llobet's Carcassi edition is somewhat analogous to Godowski's version of the Chopin Etudes. There is no point in comparing them to the original but knowledge of the original is required. Incidentally, Llobet's edition has been out of print a long time Mark -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: terli...@aol.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Mark, --- On Sun, 3/21/10, terli...@aol.com wrote: > The right hand fingerings commonly > used by guitarists for the Carcassi studies are all derived > for Llobet's fingering. > Quite possibly, makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, Llobet did not become the standard in the last century and a cottage industry has grown up around these etudes. They have somehow become the vehicle for every Tom, Dick and Harry to promulgate his own private theories about right hand technique, no matter how awkward or bizarre - or inconsistent with the others. Modern guitarists would do well to investigate 19th century right hand technique. (I don't mean planting the pinky. It appears that this was already not an integral part of right hand technique in late baroque lute technique.) I mean the basic premise of placing the 'm' finger on the strong part of the beat, 'i' on the weak, and 'a' only where needed in arpeggios and preferably on weak accents. (Sor says to never use 'a' in a melody, but this is obviously impossible in some textures.) This won't hold in every context, but it makes a great fundamental principle. Try the famous A minor "tremolo" etude (No.7 in most editions) this way. Nearly all editions will have the opening repeated notes fingered p-a-m-i. I find that most students are easily able to get the first two measures quite fast only to struggle with tempo and fluidity once the arpeggio pattern comes in. Do just the first beat with p-i-m-i, however, and it can be consistently retained throughout all of the arpeggio sections and the greater majority of the piece. Indeed, this entire etude was obviously composed with the express goal of improving speed and facility with this right hand pattern. If this is not used, the whole point of the exercise has been subverted. One may, of course, play this etude with some other fingering, but then it ceases to be a real study with a defined pedagogical goal and simply becomes like any other repertoire piece. This is just one example. All of the Carcassi etudes have a similar basic premise based in some aspect of fairly consistently applied, codified technique. > > Instead, he fingered the Carcassi studies from the point of > view of Tarrega's technique on a modern instrument, > absolutely NOT from a 19th century guitar technique > perspective (Segovia did the same thing with some Sor > studies) Yet, curiously, the same thing has not happened for Sor as has for Carcassi. Although there are a few editions, the 20 Studies edited by Segovia is standard. (Segovia actually based his edition on versions of the studies by Napoleon Coste.) Although these etudes have the same issues as I mentioned in regard to the Carcassi above, they at least have the advantage that the edition is so widely used that everyone is playing the same thing. They also have the benefit of having been fingered by the most important guitarist of the 20th century, instead of X,Y, or Z. Example dialogue: TEACHER: Use the 'a' finger there. STUDENT: It feels kind of strange. Why 'a'? TEACHER: Because _Segovia_ wrote that 'a'! >...the fingerings point toward to the works of > Ponce,Broqua,Berkeley,Henze and Tippett and beyond. Not back > toward the 19h century and before. > Sure, the fingerings may point to what is needed for that repertoire, but Llobet didn't have Ginastera in mind when he edited Carcassi. So why impose that middle-ground fingering on a repertoire where its not appropriate - or, more importantly, I would argue, particularly productive? The Brouwer Etudes are a much better introduction to this repertoire's technical demands. Here one has the benefit of combining idiosyncratically 20th-century right hand patterns with harmonically appropriate (although fairly tame) left hand groupings in the proper rhythmic context. There
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
The right hand fingerings commonly used by guitarists for the Carcassi studies are all derived for Llobet's fingering. Although Llobet wrote a few etudes,he did not write a comprehensive set of studies. Instead, he fingered the Carcassi studies from the point of view of Tarrega's technique on a modern instrument, absolutely NOT from a 19th century guitar technique perspective (Segovia did the same thing with some Sor studies)...the fingerings point toward to the works of Ponce,Broqua,Berkeley,Henze and Tippett and beyond. Not back toward the 19h century and before. I learned much about modern guitar technique carefully going through the Llobet edtion of the Carcassi studies when I was a student: Below are the results of my work: http://www.stanleyyates.com/tambu.html http://www.delpriora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DoubleFantasySoundboard.pdf http://www.delpriora.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/fingering.pdf Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; terli...@aol.com Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:31 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Mark, With thumb-under, such a string crossing may very well be done p-i. Its very much like playing with a plectrum in which a downstroke on the 1st string may need to be followed by an upstroke on the 6th. The TU lute player actually has an advantage over the pick player in that while the thumb and forearm are moving downwards, the index finger will cross the thumb and can extend to prepare for the upstroke. This is not very awkward except perhaps in super fast situations. Really no need for an m in there under normal circumstances. The cool thing about TU is that, once it is mastered, it is very agile and requires less thinking and planning than TO. Very elegant, actually. This sort of thing is much more difficult to do with TO/CG technique because the index finger can not prepare for the leap since attempting to do so will only result in it curling up into the palm. Us TO players have to do a lot more tricks to navigate these passages. I'm playing a program of guitar duos with a classical guitarist (i.e. no early music training) right now. I happened to look over at his part the other day and noticed that his paper was filled with right hand fingers. My music, meanwhile, is totally devoid of any right hand markings. Even though I don't play much thumb-under anymore, (obviously not on guitar) I credit a lot of that freedom to my days playing TU. The principles of weight distribution and metric accent has allowed me to be much less self-conscious of what the right hand is doing. Its also made sight-reading easier. I'd better stop before I go into my rant about how the the right hand intentions of the widely-used Carcassi etudes have been misunderstood, misappropriated and bowdlerized in every single modern edition... :) Chris --- On Thu, 3/18/10, terli...@aol.com wrote: > From: terli...@aol.com > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 2:45 PM > Interesting! > I taught Waltons's 5th Bagatelle yesterday and > recommended p-i or p-m for the repeated notes on the treble > strings. > > You are right, A guitarist would probably not go from > string 1 with p to the 6th string with i. > Would a lutenist? ...why not throw the m in just > before the string crossing? > best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: paul.nicholas.kief...@gmail.com; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; > terli...@aol.com > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 1:22 pm > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under > technique? > > > Mark, > >Yes, but they don't make a habit of it in > the same way. You'd never go from > string 1 with p to the 6th string with i in CG. > Nothing wrong with that, its > just a different technique. > >I currently have a new lute student (an > accomplished classical guitarist) who > has no lute at the moment, but will be getting one > shortly. Until then, we're > just using his guitar. He wants to eventually get > into thumb under, but, by way > of introduction, I'm having him begin simply by playing > pieces with thumb-index > alternation, still using ordinary classical guitar right > hand positioning. It > has been extremely difficult for him to NOT use his m or a > fingers in > single-note lines, especially when a string crossing or > voice exchange is > involved. This is simply a matter of habit for > him. I think taking the time to > be careful about this will actually help out his guitar > playing in the long run. > Pat O'Brien's "Dalza" exercises are very helpful for this > and quite mind-opening > for a lot of guitarists. > > Chris > > --- On Thu, 3/18/10, terli...@aol.com > > wrote: > > > From: terli...@aol.com > > > Subject: [LU
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Interesting! I taught Waltons's 5th Bagatelle yesterday and recommended p-i or p-m for the repeated notes on the treble strings. You are right, A guitarist would probably not go from string 1 with p to the 6th string with i. Would a lutenist? ...why not throw the m in just before the string crossing? best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: paul.nicholas.kief...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; terli...@aol.com Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Mark, Yes, but they don't make a habit of it in the same way. You'd never go from string 1 with p to the 6th string with i in CG. Nothing wrong with that, its just a different technique. I currently have a new lute student (an accomplished classical guitarist) who has no lute at the moment, but will be getting one shortly. Until then, we're just using his guitar. He wants to eventually get into thumb under, but, by way of introduction, I'm having him begin simply by playing pieces with thumb-index alternation, still using ordinary classical guitar right hand positioning. It has been extremely difficult for him to NOT use his m or a fingers in single-note lines, especially when a string crossing or voice exchange is involved. This is simply a matter of habit for him. I think taking the time to be careful about this will actually help out his guitar playing in the long run. Pat O'Brien's "Dalza" exercises are very helpful for this and quite mind-opening for a lot of guitarists. Chris --- On Thu, 3/18/10, terli...@aol.com wrote: > From: terli...@aol.com > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > To: paul.nicholas.kief...@gmail.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 12:46 PM > That's not true ,modern guitarists > use their thumb on the treble strings. > It is a necessary skill for music by Rodrigo to Britten... > not to mention transcription (God forbid!) > > > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Paul Kieffer > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 12:15 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > > >Morgan, > >I think most important thing is, as > mentioned above, plucking both >strings of each course, and plucking the > strings as strong as you can >into the soundboard (this includes with > the thumb as well). I think >classical guitarist aren't used to using > the thumb on the treble >strings, but it is important in lute > music. > >It can be done with both TO and TU > technique, and I think the best >thing would be to try for yourself and > see what is best. The bottom >line is, If you develop a good tone, > nobody will care what technique >you are using. The most important > part is the tone. Have a tone that >people will envy. > >I personally think if you are playing > repertoire like Dowland and >Laurencini, TO sounds a lot better in the > long run, but it is difficult >and frustrating to learn. Many > people find TU to be easier and more >comfortable for the hand (even > guitarists). > >TU will make your playing a lot "faster" > and you will be able to play >rapid passagi and such...but in music > like Dowland (and all music from >that time and after 1600), this effect is > not desirable (in fact I >think they considered it hideous). > Playing extremely fast has become >popular the last few decades (sort of > like speed metal). > >With TO your playing can become > incredibly loud, full, and refined. >And the thumb becomes an incredibly > strong force (especially when >playing on the treble strings). > >The two techniques also use different > parts of the finger, it is not >just where you put the thumb. With > Thumb Under technique, you will be >plucking with the underside of your > fingers i-m-a (on the left side of >the finger, when looking at the > palm). With Thumb Over technique, you >will be playing with the right end of the > fingers i-m-a (when looking >at the palm). The lutenists of the > 17th century may have even played >even farther off the finger (all the way > on the side of the finger, way >off the tip). > >But really, it depends on what is > comfortable for you. That is the >only thing that matters... > >You can try on your guitar, doing > thumb-index alternation on all the >strings, and see which hand position is > more comfortable for you. > >What music do you want to play? > >Hope this helps. > >On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:27 AM, > <[1]terli...@aol.com> > wrote: > > Hi, > I have no trouble playing baroque > guitar coming from single string > guitar. For Baroque guitar I play > with a relaxed tip joint and a get > a broad enough contact point to > play the courses just fine. > BTW, Nige
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
That's not true ,modern guitarists use their thumb on the treble strings. It is a necessary skill for music by Rodrigo to Britten... not to mention transcription (God forbid!) Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Paul Kieffer To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 12:15 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Morgan, I think most important thing is, as mentioned above, plucking both strings of each course, and plucking the strings as strong as you can into the soundboard (this includes with the thumb as well). I think classical guitarist aren't used to using the thumb on the treble strings, but it is important in lute music. It can be done with both TO and TU technique, and I think the best thing would be to try for yourself and see what is best. The bottom line is, If you develop a good tone, nobody will care what technique you are using. The most important part is the tone. Have a tone that people will envy. I personally think if you are playing repertoire like Dowland and Laurencini, TO sounds a lot better in the long run, but it is difficult and frustrating to learn. Many people find TU to be easier and more comfortable for the hand (even guitarists). TU will make your playing a lot "faster" and you will be able to play rapid passagi and such...but in music like Dowland (and all music from that time and after 1600), this effect is not desirable (in fact I think they considered it hideous). Playing extremely fast has become popular the last few decades (sort of like speed metal). With TO your playing can become incredibly loud, full, and refined. And the thumb becomes an incredibly strong force (especially when playing on the treble strings). The two techniques also use different parts of the finger, it is not just where you put the thumb. With Thumb Under technique, you will be plucking with the underside of your fingers i-m-a (on the left side of the finger, when looking at the palm). With Thumb Over technique, you will be playing with the right end of the fingers i-m-a (when looking at the palm). The lutenists of the 17th century may have even played even farther off the finger (all the way on the side of the finger, way off the tip). But really, it depends on what is comfortable for you. That is the only thing that matters... You can try on your guitar, doing thumb-index alternation on all the strings, and see which hand position is more comfortable for you. What music do you want to play? Hope this helps. On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:27 AM, <[1]terli...@aol.com> wrote: Hi, I have no trouble playing baroque guitar coming from single string guitar. For Baroque guitar I play with a relaxed tip joint and a get a broad enough contact point to play the courses just fine. BTW, Nigel Norths hand position here: [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw Looks alot like Post-Segovia guitar technique commonly taught these days. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: vance wood <[3]vancew...@wowway.com> To: Lute List > <[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Just my opinion and not based on anything other than experience; those who made the switch in the Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already habituated toward a right hand approach that attacks both strings. This is not the case with a person coming at the Lute from the Guitar. The right hand on the Guitar is concerned with a single contact point, in other words the target is smaller. When switching to the Lute from this mind set it is somewhat difficult to re-educate the fingers to strike both strings, and the mind, to hear the difference and respond to it. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and play particular attention, in close ups, as to whether both strings in a course are engaged or whether only one string in a course is activated. There are many occasions where I see the latter. - Original Message - From: <[5]chriswi...@yahoo.com> To: "Lute List" <[6]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "howard posner" <[7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "morgan cornwall" <[8]mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Morgan, --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall <[9]mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote: > > Question to all. If thumb-under assists in playing > the double courses simultaneously and without double > striking, how did the baroque lutenists (or Dowland for that > matter) avoid this problem when they switched to thumb-out? > Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart. Try thumb-under... if you want to make your lute sound "dull and rotten" (Stobaeus) ;-) In all se
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Hi, I have no trouble playing baroque guitar coming from single string guitar. For Baroque guitar I play with a relaxed tip joint and a get a broad enough contact point to play the courses just fine. BTW, Nigel Norths hand position here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw Looks alot like Post-Segovia guitar technique commonly taught these days. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: vance wood To: Lute List > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Just my opinion and not based on anything other than experience; those who made the switch in the Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already habituated toward a right hand approach that attacks both strings. This is not the case with a person coming at the Lute from the Guitar. The right hand on the Guitar is concerned with a single contact point, in other words the target is smaller. When switching to the Lute from this mind set it is somewhat difficult to re-educate the fingers to strike both strings, and the mind, to hear the difference and respond to it. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and play particular attention, in close ups, as to whether both strings in a course are engaged or whether only one string in a course is activated. There are many occasions where I see the latter. - Original Message - From: To: "Lute List" ; "howard posner" ; "morgan cornwall" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Morgan, --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall wrote: > > Question to all. If thumb-under assists in playing > the double courses simultaneously and without double > striking, how did the baroque lutenists (or Dowland for that > matter) avoid this problem when they switched to thumb-out? > Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart. Try thumb-under... if you want to make your lute sound "dull and rotten" (Stobaeus) ;-) In all seriousness, I would advise you to give it a serious try. The touch and feel is considerably different than classical guitar style and you'll probably like it. The majority of ren. players obviously used this technique and the music they left to us responds well with it. Thumb-out can also be made to work and two strings can be simultaneously struck just as effectively as with thumb-under, but it is generally more appropriate for music c.1600 and later. Also, thumb-out is NOT the same as classical guitar technique: you'll have to spend a lot of time practicing real lute thumb-out. As the quote from Stobaeus above suggests, it seems the practitioners of thumb-out had a different tonal ideal in mind. Chris > And thank you, Howard, for the comments. > > > - Original Message - From: "howard posner" > > To: "Lute List" > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:20 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, morgan cornwall wrote: > > > I would like to make the best use of the time I > have. Given my > > circumstances, would you recommend > that I learn thumb-under technique? > > Does it make more sense to use this > technique from the start, or should > > I focus on the other aspects of lute > technique? If I don't learn > > thumb-under from the get go, will > this just be more to unlearn later? > > Should I not even worry about using > thumb-under? > > I remember some years ago, a lurker on the list named John > Dowland asked if he should change from thumb-under to > thumb-out technique, since everyone seemed to have been > switching, and he got a mixed bag of responses. I wish > I could forward them on to you, but it was more than 400 > years ago and my email archives don't go back that > far; Stewart McCoy probably has them. I believe > Dowland made that change, or so Stobaeus tells us. > > As for you, you should arrange your right hand so that it's > getting a full tone and not banging two strings of a course > together, which in turn involves striking the string from > the top, as if you're pushing them down toward the > soundboard. Your guitar technique will probably not > accomplish this. Resting the pinkie on the soundboard > is helpful in orienting the hand, so even if it feels odd at > first, you should try it. Experiment with whatever > works, and don't worry too much about where your thumb is, > unless it's interfering with your fingers. > > My first lute teacher told me to try thumb-under for at > least a week or so, mostly to get me doing something > different from what I was used to, the theory being, I > suppose, that doing something farthest removed from my > established habits would minimize the transfer of > lute-inappropriate technique to the lute. > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > To get on or off this list se
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
-Original Message- From: vance wood To: Lute List > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Just my opinion and not based on anything other than experience; those who made the switch in the Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already habituated toward a right hand approach that attacks both strings. This is not the case with a person coming at the Lute from the Guitar. The right hand on the Guitar is concerned with a single contact point, in other words the target is smaller. When switching to the Lute from this mind set it is somewhat difficult to re-educate the fingers to strike both strings, and the mind, to hear the difference and respond to it. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and play particular attention, in close ups, as to whether both strings in a course are engaged or whether only one string in a course is activated. There are many occasions where I see the latter. - Original Message - From: To: "Lute List" ; "howard posner" ; "morgan cornwall" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Morgan, --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall wrote: > > Question to all. If thumb-under assists in playing > the double courses simultaneously and without double > striking, how did the baroque lutenists (or Dowland for that > matter) avoid this problem when they switched to thumb-out? > Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart. Try thumb-under... if you want to make your lute sound "dull and rotten" (Stobaeus) ;-) In all seriousness, I would advise you to give it a serious try. The touch and feel is considerably different than classical guitar style and you'll probably like it. The majority of ren. players obviously used this technique and the music they left to us responds well with it. Thumb-out can also be made to work and two strings can be simultaneously struck just as effectively as with thumb-under, but it is generally more appropriate for music c.1600 and later. Also, thumb-out is NOT the same as classical guitar technique: you'll have to spend a lot of time practicing real lute thumb-out. As the quote from Stobaeus above suggests, it seems the practitioners of thumb-out had a different tonal ideal in mind. Chris > And thank you, Howard, for the comments. > > > - Original Message - From: "howard posner" > > To: "Lute List" > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:20 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, morgan cornwall wrote: > > > I would like to make the best use of the time I > have. Given my > > circumstances, would you recommend > that I learn thumb-under technique? > > Does it make more sense to use this > technique from the start, or should > > I focus on the other aspects of lute > technique? If I don't learn > > thumb-under from the get go, will > this just be more to unlearn later? > > Should I not even worry about using > thumb-under? > > I remember some years ago, a lurker on the list named John > Dowland asked if he should change from thumb-under to > thumb-out technique, since everyone seemed to have been > switching, and he got a mixed bag of responses. I wish > I could forward them on to you, but it was more than 400 > years ago and my email archives don't go back that > far; Stewart McCoy probably has them. I believe > Dowland made that change, or so Stobaeus tells us. > > As for you, you should arrange your right hand so that it's > getting a full tone and not banging two strings of a course > together, which in turn involves striking the string from > the top, as if you're pushing them down toward the > soundboard. Your guitar technique will probably not > accomplish this. Resting the pinkie on the soundboard > is helpful in orienting the hand, so even if it feels odd at > first, you should try it. Experiment with whatever > works, and don't worry too much about where your thumb is, > unless it's interfering with your fingers. > > My first lute teacher told me to try thumb-under for at > least a week or so, mostly to get me doing something > different from what I was used to, the theory being, I > suppose, that doing something farthest removed from my > established habits would minimize the transfer of > lute-inappropriate technique to the lute. > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4954 (20100318) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4954 (20100318) ___
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
I would imagine that if the thumb is playing repeated notes on lower courses (with thumb out technique) while a note is required on the chanterelle, that some contact with the second course could occur. Not a deep rest stroke like some flamenco guitarists do, but light contact resulting form the angle of the fingers. Mark -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Winheld Sent: Tue, Jan 19, 2010 8:10 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I've seen Paul O'Dette use repeated rest strokes in the bass, sometimes for fairly fast lines that I would take with p-i alternating (free) strokes. On the other hand, I've seen Robert Barto occasionally use rest strokes in the treble. There are an awful lot of paintings (especially, but not exclusively, baroque) in which the players are clearly using a rest stroke with the fingers a la classical guitar. In most of these the player is obviously tuning; in some, its not so clear. I know of no printed instructions, however. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke
Do any early sources describe something that could be interpreted as a "rest stroke" being used on the chanterelle? -Original Message- From: David R To: nedma...@aol.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2010 6:26 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke I think it came into use with the Venetian lutenists from 1500 or so. Obviously you can't use rest strokes when you're playing thumb-index diminutions, and you don't want to be damping the string directly below your thumb if it's supposed to be sounding, but as a general rule I think that wherever possible rest-stroke was the default way to strike a bass string with your thumb right from the beginning. Nobody knows what Dowland did. Is it so important? DR On Jan 18, 2010, at 4:31 PM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: >I'm curious as to when it is thought the rest stroke for the > thumb came >into common use. Was it commonly used on the Renaissance lute? > Do we >think Dowland used it early, or late, or at all in his career? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Ned > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata
Well, let me just say that I really appreciate the videos you and others put up. I come across some interesting lute repertoire that I may or may not transcribe for guitar ... and some of this music puts me one more step towards ordering a Liuto Forte. Thanks! Best, Mark -Original Message- From: Daniel Shoskes To: Franz Mechsner Cc: chriswilke ; Ed Durbrow ; LuteNet list Sent: Mon, Jan 11, 2010 9:44 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Conradi Sonata Ok, I started the ball rolling and was going to let it rest, but I feel compelled to make a few comments (realizing that this discussion is now across 2 threads). 1) Franz, please do have the courage of your convictions. You made a comment that was intended to be critical, even if couched in indirect terms ( I realize this group includes many non-native English speakers, but I think the most appropriate internet term is "snarky"). Either you don't like amateurs posting about their videos or, feeling insecure about criticizing them yourself, you wish others would do so on the group. It's OK, I'm a big boy with a thick skin. You mentioned academic criticism in the other thread; I think you'll find that the lute amateur world is populated by many people with advanced degrees and training in other fields that has not left them fragile to both constructive and harsh words. There are at least 2 other surgeons I know who play seriously on baroque lute (in addition to several other doctors and lawyers) and you know that our egos are second to none! 2) I've posted before about my reasons for making utube videos and I'm not going to rehash it all again (the archives has a good search function). In brief, it's an excellent tool for self examination, for sharing my playing with friends who will likely never see me play in person and, as someone who gets to play in real concerts maybe once or twice a year, a great motivation to work on new rep. There is no doubt that putting lute videos out in the ether also introduces people to the instrument for the first time and I've had much correspondence from people interested in trying the lute after seeing my videos. And there IS the ego stroking component, I've never been ashamed to admit that. Also, like David with his facial expressions, I've picked up that I breathe too heavily, sometimes sway too much and pinch courses together with my left hand when I barre, none of which I would have been able to tell without regular lessons or the videos. 3) Public comments posted in youtube are seldom helpful (either good or bad). I couldn't care less that some people are offended by the light bouncing off my bald head, or (sorry Franz) that they don't like me reading from a score having a stiff elderly demeanor (sorry, in my profession stiff and elderly don't often go together). Similarly, when people have commented how great I am and that my playing is better than Barto, I know it's not true. I thank them and then refer them to videos and recordings that really ARE great. On the other hand, I have received many private messages, from both amateurs and professionals, that had very helpful and constructive criticism. I know I have a long way to go on the instrument, but looking at my videos from 2 years ago, 1 year ago and 6 months ago, I feel that I've made progress. 4) Can watching yourself play lead to self improvement or does it just reinforce bad technique? Everyone's different. Watching myself, I think that the major things I need to work on are a) consistent tone production, especially controlling the difference in attack between gut and synthetic in the basses b) more horizontal playing of longer lines, with greater use of dynamic control and a lighter touch on the "less important" notes c) rapid release of tension in the right hand fingers to allow greater speed in the faster dance movements d) holding notes longer in the left hand when doing so creates effective harmonies and suspensions e) these are the general themes; each piece or style will have it's own deficiencies (eg. more variety in the inegale for the French baroque music (thanks Wilke!), a freer strum on my baroque guitar) 5) There are many subscribers to my utube channel who presumably are interested when I have new videos. Consequently I haven't posted to this list every time there is a new one and tried to be selective (I post more on the baroque lute list about baroque specific issues). I thought my "11 course gut vs 13 course synthetic" video would be relevant given the multiple discussions about pros and cons of models and strings. I also thought that so few people have heard Conradi's music, that an intro might be fun. 6) Finally, sorry you are not a fan on the ning group Stuart, but as I written in a few moderator posts, the whole "friend" thi
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
and written with the cattiness of a student...a freshman maybe? Except the students you heard play for Hoppy were young (one was 19) and you are ? Mark -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: terli...@aol.com; chriswi...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 11:56 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Unless he was a practitioner of both, more often than not. Couldn't say that about them guitar students. RT (fresh out a voice lesson). = -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Self-abuse and this person must go to confession. -Original Message- From: howard posner To: Lutelist list Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:55 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte On Dec 23, 2009, at 7:51 AM, terli...@aol.com wrote: > I am sure a singer of Josquin des Prez > > felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Unless, as is not unlikely, the singer and the lute player were the same person. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Hey Roman, And I got to meet your smiling face, too. Hoppy taught the students very well and they learned alot from him. As Hoppy said, a big part of the lute repertoire. is made up of transcriptions and, in those idealized days of yore, I am sure a singer of Josquin des Prez felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: chriswi...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:10 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It does sound much more interesting than a guitar though, even if it sound a bit too much like one (but thankfully not quite). I have recently observed Hoppy Smith's masterclass for guitarists torturing lute repertoire, and I was really grateful for bypassing the guitar myself. RT - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It's a guitar, as confirmed by Peter Autschbach's jazz recording. If you tried to do what he did on a real lute, the results would be entirely different. (I liked it, though.) On the other hand, I was disappointed that Contini's "arciliuto forte" recording didn't seem to be particularly louder than a historical-model archlute... again displaying the fact that the fuller tonal spectrum and ostensibly greater dynamic range of the modern guitar (and liuto forte) doesn't help one iota in ensemble situations. I'm not ready to make up my mind from recorded examples. I would still like to hear/play one in person. Chris --- On Tue, 12/22/09, luther maynard wrote: > From: luther maynard > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de, l...@pantagruel.de > Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 5:34 PM > To each his own, > but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my > ears. > > LM > > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 > + > > To: l...@pantagruel.de > > CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder > , then > on > > on the left > (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, > > Christian Hostettler, Luciano > Contini, Peter Autschbach). > > > > Mathias > > > > "Edward Martin" > schrieb: > > > I am curious... are there any > professional recordings on liuto > forte? > > > > > > ed > > > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute > wrote: > > > >The text was used for a > performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > > > >As you admit it does sound > silly, there is no evidence that Bach > wrote 6 > > > >suites for the lute, even > that he was so very interested in the > lute. > > > >I am sure a lot of > lutenists would love to think he was, but it > does not > > > >seem to have interested him > a great deal. > > > > > > > >But maybe he could see into > the future and wanted to write for an > instrument > > > >that was invented a few > hundred years lateror maybe the liuto > forte is > > > >not a new instrument, but > an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > > > > > >There are also a number of > modern performances on dminor baroque > lute so > > > >they do not seem to be > "unplayable". > > > > > > > >All the best > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme > presenting the reconstructed 6 > suites > > > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 995 > > > >prelude, allemande, > courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > > > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande > lointaine. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 999 > > > >(reconstitution E. > Bellocq) > > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, > menuets 1, 2 et 3. > > > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, > theme et variations sur la chanson > traditionnelle > > > >japonaise. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 998 > > > >prelude, fugue et allegro. > > > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 996 > > > >prelude, allemande, > courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. > > > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: > larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 997 > > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, > gigue et double. > > > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux > cheveux de lin. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 1006a > > > >prelude, loure, gavotte en > rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourree, > gigue. > > > > > > > >-Urspruengliche > Nachricht- > > > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im Auftrag > > > >von Franz Mechsner > > > >Gesendet: Montag, 21. > Dezember 2009 17:09 > > > >An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage > Valery; lute > > > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto > forte > > > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > > > where did you get Eric > Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds > indeed > > > > a little silly - but given > how much work he seme
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I think it sounds somewhere between the alt-guitar that Goran Sollscher plays and a lute. It has less sustain in the upper register than a guitar. I want one! Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: luther maynard To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de; l...@pantagruel.de Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2009 5:34 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte To each his own, but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my ears. LM > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 + > To: l...@pantagruel.de > CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder , then on > on the left (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, > Christian Hostettler, Luciano Contini, Peter Autschbach). > > Mathias > > "Edward Martin" schrieb: > > I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto forte? > > > > ed > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: > > >The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > > >As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 > > >suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. > > >I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not > > >seem to have interested him a great deal. > > > > > >But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument > > >that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is > > >not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > > > >There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so > > >they do not seem to be "unplayable". > > > > > >All the best > > >Mark > > > > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 > > >(reconstitution E. Bellocq) > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. > > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, theme et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle > > >japonaise. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 > > >prelude, fugue et allegro. > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. > > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. > > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a > > >prelude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourree, gigue. > > > > > >-Urspruengliche Nachricht- > > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > > >von Franz Mechsner > > >Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 > > >An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valery; lute > > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed > > > a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in > > > research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, > > > one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's > > > the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... > > > > > > F > > > __ > > > > > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler > > > Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 > > > An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute > > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > > > lute" > > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same > > > lutenist.. > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, > > > composed six > > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > > > and > > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito > > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > > > playable!" > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the > > > evidence? > > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been > > > recorded > > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > > > that > > > som
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I would like to second that! The Campion recording is superb! Mark -Original Message- From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:46 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there must be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. In spite, I actually am quite fond of Bellocq's recordings on 5-course guitar. In particular, note his recording of Francois Campion's music. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:29 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is > rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact > remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. > I personally find it plausible. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all > specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works > being > intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, > tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented > lute > type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to > lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. > > What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote > several > works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must > have > composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We > have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of > suites > for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, > etc.). > It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are > uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. > > Eugene > > > > -Original Message- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > lute" > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed > > six > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > and > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > > playable!" > > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the > evidence? > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been > recorded > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > > that > > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering > that > > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > > early > > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > > > Mark > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > > Auftrag > > von Sauvage Valéry > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form > of > > a > > > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in > > itself, > > > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > > V. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: terli...@aol.com > > > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > > > lutenists: > > > > > > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here > have > > > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars > and > > > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars a
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
O.K so you have BWV 995, 996, 997,998, and 1006a. That's 5. (with the prelude Fugue and Allegro being considered a Suite). What is the 6th? In my guitar literature classes at the Manhattan School of Music, I love to play harpsichord recordings for the students of 996,997 and 998. I also have them hear lute recordings,too! There are some guitar recordings eg. Stephan Schmidt, that get all the notes in the original key at reasonable tempos. In which case, why not play a 10 string guitar? Probably because of the same reason that a guitar student of mine was asked to find a lute-shaped guitar to play continuo in an opera. The pear shape is sexier than the figure 8...tell THAT to a Milanese fashion designer!! Mark -Original Message- From: Mark Wheeler To: 'Sauvage Valéry' ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:27 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. âIt is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a âluito forteâ built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!â Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valéry Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > are players that can do it. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: >> Ok forte, >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >> the one he used). >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >> can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it > may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize > the > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain > portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its > charm in > other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even > then it > doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument > amplified > in even small ensembles. > > If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of > guitar > (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre > itself, > a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in any > of
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
-Original Message- From: terli...@aol.com To: chriswi...@yahoo.com Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate lutenists: I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there are players that can do it. The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Valery, --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: > Ok forte, > we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for > the one he used). > So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you > can play with nails... Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really awful ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other classical guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it may be technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize the lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its charm in other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even then it doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument amplified in even small ensembles. If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of guitar (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre itself, a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in any of my ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well unamplified in a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at all. Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these instruments and modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as alternate versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often perceive them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world. I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The emphasis of higher partials means that the sound on both can cut through quite well. Play close to the bridge and you can be heard most of the time. I've been thinking of writing a duo for lute and modern guitar. Maybe now's the time to investigate the project. Chris > - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" > To: ; > ; > > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on > "Burg > Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) > Greetings > W. > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im > Auftrag von terli...@aol.com > Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 > An: r.turov...@verizon.net; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar > repertoire! > . and is happy with finger nails. > > > Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto > forte hat > occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? > > > I missed it. > > > Mark Delpriora > > > > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky > To: Lutelist > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by > Andre Burguete, > that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the > volume of the > guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and > has some > interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and > soundboard > construction. > Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the > sound > (negligibly). > This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. > But one really misses the overtone palette of double > strings. > It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is > sick of the > guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his > nails. > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ > There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver > Holzenburg, Luciano > Contini et al. > RT > > - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" > > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto >
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
My guess is that the producers of the event prefer the shape of the lute to the shape of a guitar. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Sauvage Valéry To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:40 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I went this year to a concert with Ensemble Clément Janequin (Dominique Visse, counter tenor) and with Eric Bellocq, lute, or Liuto forte now. Ok forte, we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for the one he used). So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you can play with nails... V. - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on "Burg Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) Greetings W. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von terli...@aol.com Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 An: r.turov...@verizon.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! . and is happy with finger nails. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? I missed it. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have > been out of the office for this one) > thanks, Dan > -- > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! ... and is happy with finger nails. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? I missed it. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have > been out of the office for this one) > thanks, Dan > -- > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Hopkinson Smith masterclass Manhattan School of Music
Hi All, Hopkinson Smith will give a masterclass at the Manhattan School of Music on Saturday, Nov. 21st at 6 pm in the school's new Miller Theater. The class is free and open to the public. Best, Mark Delpriora -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing With Nails
Hi All, I am enjoying this thread... I am awaiting a baroque guitar being made for me by Michael Schreiner. The instrument should be ready by the summer. I got tired of playing a converted modern guitar and visited Paul Shipper, who was very helpful and kind, with the purpose of checking out his jarano, Anyway, I tried Paul's 1690 Voboam made by Michael Schreiner and flipped at the beautiful tone, even with my rather long nails. I have since shortened my nails, gradually over the past few months, in anticipation of my new instrument! Maybe I'll clip my nails as an experiment, when I have away from my Ruck. Mark Delpriora co-chair,guitar department, Manhattan School of Music In a message dated 03/26/06 3:30:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > When I play lutes with courses I do not use nails, >though. Rodney Stuckey, who lives around these parts, >does play lute and baroque guitar with nails. Again, >he achieves such a warm tone that I've had to actually >look while he plays to confirm that those nails are >there. >I think much of it has to do with the individual >player. It is more difficult to achieve a >satisfactory tone with nails, but a refined performer >is going to spend a great deal of mental effort on >developing his or her tone whether they are using >nails or not. > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Willams Concert
In a message dated 04/05/05 7:04:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >I used "blues" figuratively. Actually, Williams does have a recording of "3 blues" by Charlie Byrd on a disc called "Spirit of the Guitar" You gotta hear it! Mark Delpriora Co-chair, guitar department, Manhattan School of Music To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
