[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
Rainer has raised the point as to why one would include a piece in the Dowland Canon without attribution. It is a good question. let's take a quick look. It turns out many "works" by Dowland have no attribution. And this is true for many composers. In The Poulton/Lam edition (CLM) No. 60 is a good example. It is anonymous, no attribution, and the Title is "Come away" which is of course, not even the correct title. Poulton corrects the title to the song. Furthermore, it is different than other settings in other sources. Did Dowland write the very poorly composed piece--though a charming tune--and then fail to sign it in embarrassment, and put the wrong title on it? I think not. So why was it included? Because similar pieces (although in this case, not similar pieces) are attributed in other sources. However, Dowland's piece in Francisque has much stronger credentials. It has multiple attributions in other sources, it has all of the stylistic traits (which No 60 does not), and there is the intriguing reference by Dowland himself about the imperfect foreign sources, all of which fit neatly onto a timeline that results in the publication of LoST. It uses the full polyphonic framework, which is very rare, and has very difficult fingering, exhibiting typical Dowland "harder than it looks" virtuosity. Note that I did not say it is in the same class of attribution as the holograph sources, I merely put it into the second, or "strong" category. In this respect, it is below "Farewell Fancy" but clearly above No. 60 in CLM. And it clearly has stronger credentials than many of the pieces in CLM. Another thing to consider, if we start using the attribution rule to decide authorship, much of our favorite music will instantly become anonymous, including works by Josquin, Isaac, Francesco, Handel & Bach. As for whether Poulton knew of the piece, my concern is only that it does not appear in the sources in CLM, The role of the editor is not to discard the music you don't like, it is to include the sources. And then if you wish, rate it lower. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
Are you saying that there are no pieces in CLM that do not have attributions? Also, I must disagree with your characterization of my position concerning Holmes, that's simply not the case, each piece is taken on a case by case basis, such as Farewell Fancy. dt At 11:55 AM 7/24/2008, you wrote: >David Rastall wrote: >>On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Robert Margo wrote: >> >>>I think Mr. Tayler is referring to the 14th piece in Francisque >>>(counting >>>from the beginning of the book). I played it this morning. It is >>>definitely a Dowland theme. >>That's what I was thinking. It's a Dowland theme, which Francisque >>took and wrote a galliard on it. Does that make it a "piece by >>Dowland?" > >Of course, Diana Poulton knew of this setting - see her biography, >pp 62, 289 and 489. > >It is well known that David Tayler doesn't accept the Holmes >manuscripts or Variety as reliable sources for Dowland's music. > >Why on earth does he think Dowland has anything to do with this >setting of CLM19 that is simply called "Galliarde" and not >attributed to anybody by Francisque. > >Rainer adS > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
David Rastall wrote: On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Robert Margo wrote: I think Mr. Tayler is referring to the 14th piece in Francisque (counting from the beginning of the book). I played it this morning. It is definitely a Dowland theme. That's what I was thinking. It's a Dowland theme, which Francisque took and wrote a galliard on it. Does that make it a "piece by Dowland?" Of course, Diana Poulton knew of this setting - see her biography, pp 62, 289 and 489. It is well known that David Tayler doesn't accept the Holmes manuscripts or Variety as reliable sources for Dowland's music. Why on earth does he think Dowland has anything to do with this setting of CLM19 that is simply called "Galliarde" and not attributed to anybody by Francisque. Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
Rob is correct--there is a very interesting use of the 7th course to provide an alternate fingering for the low B Flat for voice leading reasons in the third strain. Quintessential Dowland. So ideally it could be played on an eight course or a nine course. Very intriguing; hat tip to Rob, well spotted. dt At 08:19 AM 7/24/2008, you wrote: >Just catching up with this topic. A 'new' piece by Dowland is clearly of >great interest. Can you be more specific, David? I looked at the 14th piece >(thanks for the link to the online facsimile, Valery!) - it seems to be for >8c. On my 69cms lute, the stretches are at times too much, even with >my large hands. I'll leave it to someone else to do the World Premier! > >Rob > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
Well, it is of course not really so new since it is so old :) I first described it in a review in Early Music in May 1985. Briefly, the arguments for authorship are as follows: It is closely based on the song "If my complaints" (Or Piper's galliard")--note that it is NOT the theme, but the tune and the harmony as well. The whole enchilada. It is distinctly in Dowland's style, briefly, it has difficult chords similar to the *printed* version of Dowland's adew (not the one in Poulton, but Dowland's own version, which did not make it in somehow) It has gentle figuration with full chords and voice leading It is specifically referred to in Dowland's letter about versions of his music being published abroad, and predates his answer in the publication of LoST. The timeline and the events are perfect. In terms of authorship, then it clearly falls into category 2: not signed by Dowland,or holograph, like Farewell fancy, but a good Dowland piece in all respects. Note that most of the song settings in the Poulton/Lam edition are attributed to Dowland with nowhere near this amount of evidence, and fall into a much lower category. As for whether Francisque wrote or arranged it, it is stylistically very different from the other pieces in Francisque, but remember that most of the pieces in Poulton/Lam, and indeed the majority of the song settings are in fact arrangements by other lute players. The arrangements are, for the most part, all we have; this just happens to be one of the better ones--fully harmonized, with nice counterpoint, typical Dowland. The similarity in style and time of publication to the authoritative "Dowland's Adew" (Dowland's printed version) is quite striking. Figuration is similar to the "Galliard to Lachrimae", published by Dowland himself--and a good example of variance in dotted note lengths for the inegal style of this period. The figuration in Galliard to Lachrimae has a subtle French undertone, showing Dowland's interest in that style. And, as has been pointed out, difficult to play--like the real thing. dt All of whicAt 08:19 AM 7/24/2008, you wrote: >Just catching up with this topic. A 'new' piece by Dowland is clearly of >great interest. Can you be more specific, David? I looked at the 14th piece >(thanks for the link to the online facsimile, Valery!) - it seems to be for >8c. On my 69cms lute, the stretches are at times too much, even with >my large hands. I'll leave it to someone else to do the World Premier! > >Rob > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Robert Margo wrote: > I think Mr. Tayler is referring to the 14th piece in Francisque > (counting > from the beginning of the book). I played it this morning. It is > definitely a Dowland theme. That's what I was thinking. It's a Dowland theme, which Francisque took and wrote a galliard on it. Does that make it a "piece by Dowland?" DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
Just catching up with this topic. A 'new' piece by Dowland is clearly of great interest. Can you be more specific, David? I looked at the 14th piece (thanks for the link to the online facsimile, Valery!) - it seems to be for 8c. On my 69cms lute, the stretches are at times too much, even with my large hands. I'll leave it to someone else to do the World Premier! Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
I'm interested in Mr. Tayler's reasoning. It certainly is a very beautiful setting. Robert Margo On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:33 AM, David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Jul 24, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Robert Margo wrote: > > I think Mr. Tayler is referring to the 14th piece in Francisque (counting > from the beginning of the book). I played it this morning. It is > definitely a Dowland theme. > > > That's what I was thinking. It's a Dowland theme, which Francisque took > and wrote a galliard on it. Does that make it a "piece by Dowland?" > > DR > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
Looking for Francisque I found this... For those interested by this music, just sign up for downloading the fac-simile... http://www.scribd.com/doc/3181364/Le-Tresor-dOrphee-Antoine-Francisque Val ;-) - Original Message - From: "Sauvage Valéry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" ; "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece Hello David, Do you have more precise reference of the galliard you're talking about (14 in Francisque) ? I see only 3 or 4 galliard in my copy of Francisque. Or is it another source ? thanks Val - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece Galliard no 14 in Francisque, which is not in Poulton, is one of Dowland's more interesting pieces. I don't believe it has been recorded--perhaps Rob will be the first and put it on his site :) Perhaps someone recorded it--I did a search at some point It is for 7c lute. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
On Jul 24, 2008, at 5:32 AM, David Tayler wrote: > Galliard no 14 in Francisque, which is not in Poulton, is one of > Dowland's more interesting pieces. I have a loose copy of this piece, probably a handout from some past seminar. It's marked as Fransisque no. 14, and the title is "Galliard on a Theme by Dowland" rather than a Galliard by Dowland. The theme itself reminds me of part of Captain Digorie Piper's Galliard. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
I think Mr. Tayler is referring to the 14th piece in Francisque (counting from the beginning of the book). I played it this morning. It is definitely a Dowland theme. Robert Margo On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Sauvage Valery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello David, > Do you have more precise reference of the galliard you're talking about (14 > in Francisque) ? I see only 3 or 4 galliard in my copy of Francisque. Or is > it another source ? > thanks > Val > > > - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 11:32 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece > > > > >> Galliard no 14 in Francisque, which is not in Poulton, is one of >> Dowland's more interesting pieces. >> I don't believe it has been recorded--perhaps Rob will be the first >> and put it on his site :) >> Perhaps someone recorded it--I did a search at some point >> It is for 7c lute. >> dt >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > --
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
Hello David, Do you have more precise reference of the galliard you're talking about (14 in Francisque) ? I see only 3 or 4 galliard in my copy of Francisque. Or is it another source ? thanks Val - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 11:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece Galliard no 14 in Francisque, which is not in Poulton, is one of Dowland's more interesting pieces. I don't believe it has been recorded--perhaps Rob will be the first and put it on his site :) Perhaps someone recorded it--I did a search at some point It is for 7c lute. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Lutes--the hidden piece
Galliard no 14 in Francisque, which is not in Poulton, is one of Dowland's more interesting pieces. I don't believe it has been recorded--perhaps Rob will be the first and put it on his site :) Perhaps someone recorded it--I did a search at some point It is for 7c lute. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
