[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com 9/29/2009 12:46 AM On Sep 28, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Christopher Stetson wrote: My question (not answered in the book): In which traditional scale does someone from, for example, Java have AP (or PP); slendro (5 unequally spaced tones to the octave), pelog (seven equally spaced tones), or both? I wish someone would study this outside of the Euro-American tonal system while there's still time. Think of AP as pitch memory and the question answers itself. You remember the pitch you're exposed to. Someone in the rec. music.early group wrote about relearning his absolute pitch when he was exposed to pitches other than 440. -- Yes, exactly, Howard, and that's why I think AP is just that, mixed with benign, un-thought-out cultural chauvinism. However, and I confess I don't remember the details, some researchers seem to think that there is an absolute pitch independent of memory. The problem with that, as we both realize, is that it presupposes something like a Platonic Ideal of A at 440 imbedded in our synapses. Also, the Javanese example is especially interesting, in that the microtonal attributes of either scale, which are fixed in the bronze of the keys of the gamelan sets, vary relatively widely from location to location, and even within instrument sets in the same location. Two other interesting things: it appears that most people internalize their native musical scale at around 9 months, the same time you internalize the phoneme set of your native language. And most people form their musical taste at around 13, just when it's an important group identifier, and have very little desire or, it appears, even ability, to appreciate musics outside of those preferences. Probably not coincidentally, the same time that 95% of people lose the ability to acquire a new language with something approaching a native accent. Anyway, fascinating, at least for me, if fairly blatantly OT for the lute list. Best, and keep playing. Chris. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
However, and I confess I don't remember the details, some researchers seem to think that there is an absolute pitch independent of memory. The problem with that, as we both realize, is that it presupposes something like a Platonic Ideal of A at 440 imbedded in our synapses. Two other interesting things: it appears that most people internalize their native musical scale at around 9 months, the same time you internalize the phoneme set of your native language. And most people form their musical taste at around 13, just when it's an important group identifier, Another way of observing that the the pop music industry pitches a lot of its product to teenagers and have very little desire or, it appears, even ability, to appreciate musics outside of those preferences. Don't you just love pseudo-science? Someone with a Ph.D. in behavioral science or statistics or whatever thinks musical taste can be quantified and measured. Just start plugging in specifics and you'll see how meaningless it is. It involves all sorts of assumed judgments about what music is or is not sufficiently similar to other music. (It's 1962 in Toledo, Ohio, you're 18 and hear the Beatles for the first time and love what you hear. Are you appreciating music outside of the preferences you acquired at 13, if you were listening to Elvis at 13? If your favorite record was the Music Man original cast album? Nat King Cole's greatest hits? Or is your area of preference Western popular music? What if you take up the lute at 35?) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
A hearty Aye! You go, Howard! Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 12:29 PM To: Lutelist list Subject: [LUTE] Re: ET FunFest Don't you just love pseudo-science? Someone with a Ph.D. in behavioral science or statistics or whatever thinks musical taste can be quantified and measured. Just start plugging in specifics and you'll see how meaningless it is. It involves all sorts of assumed judgments about what music is or is not sufficiently similar to other music. (It's 1962 in Toledo, Ohio, you're 18 and hear the Beatles for the first time and love what you hear. Are you appreciating music outside of the preferences you acquired at 13, if you were listening to Elvis at 13? If your favorite record was the Music Man original cast album? Nat King Cole's greatest hits? Or is your area of preference Western popular music? What if you take up the lute at 35?) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
--- On Tue, 9/29/09, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: Two other interesting things: it appears that most people internalize their native musical scale at around 9 months, the same time you internalize the phoneme set of your native language. And most people form their musical taste at around 13, just when it's an important group identifier, Another way of observing that the the pop music industry pitches a lot of its product to teenagers Probably not as relevant if you're a teenager born and raised in Podunkville, KY. If you're a teenager there, you'll mostly enjoy listening to the same country artists as the adults in the community around you. You'll also probably have little appreciation for the merits of progressive rock, Beyonce or chromatic madrigals. But of course this is stereotyping the Podunkers, as it is to say that regular teenagers like pop music because it is spoon fed to them. When I was a teenager, pop was the ruling taste among my classmates. But I got into thrash metal, fusion and chromatic madrigals. Crazy kid. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
Is there anyone on the list with AP who would care to enlighten us muggles about what you hear? dunno about AP, or even PP; play a note to me, ask me what it was, my reply is guesswork. I also have no clue about intervals. I can sing the ones I want, just, dont ask me what they were, I hate to use my fingers for counting in public. But, once I have an inner memory of some performance of a piece, mine own or a recording, I can usually sing it from memory at the precise pitch it was played when I heard it. Basically, I am singing along with the inner voice track. Curious all this business, the mind is clearly engaged for all of this but in different ways for each of us. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was]New lute music and ET
I, also being a rank amateur (or at least no better than semi-pro in that I will take paying gigs when they come along), like to imagine that my other points were at least decent too. There seems to be some evidence that some fretted composers were striving for equal temperament certainly by the 17th c. The fact that non-equal instruments with unsegmented frets become more jumbled with more remote modulation also seems to argue for an effort to approximate equal temperament in works that modulate to remote keys. Carry on, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Leonard Williams Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:13 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was]New lute music and ET Eugene-- Your final point is a good one in the temperament wars. What, indeed, did the composer have in mind? How did he/she hear the music? What was it composed upon? And you're right--one seldom hears of a specified intonation. We work off assumptions based on what tunings might have been used, without knowing how accurately they were executed, or if the composer ever worked with other ones for comparison. I (rank amateur) personally like the sound of my lute in meantone (and would go so far as to suggest it to others), but I have no idea what anyone else hears in it, so in the bigger picture perhaps it doesn't matter. Regards, Leonard On 9/26/09 9:33 AM, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: I would argue more should be willing to indulge, at least occasionally, in both non-equal and equal temperaments as the musical occasion seems to call for it as determined by the performer (unless explicitly prescribed by a composer...which certainly isn't often, thus these recurring debates). Enjoy, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
Hi, all. See Robert Jourdain: Music, the Brain, and Ecstasy. Interesting discussion on musical memory and cognition. Also some info about AP, if I remember correctly. Apparently there's some disagreement on whether AP is just a very good tonal memory, or something more basic. I don't think he goes into varying pitch standards, though. My question (not answered in the book): In which traditional scale does someone from, for example, Java have AP (or PP); slendro (5 unequally spaced tones to the octave), pelog (seven equally spaced tones), or both? I wish someone would study this outside of the Euro-American tonal system while there's still time. Best to all, and keep playing, Chris. dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 9/28/2009 10:59 AM Is there anyone on the list with AP who would care to enlighten us muggles about what you hear? dunno about AP, or even PP; play a note to me, ask me what it was, my reply is guesswork. I also have no clue about intervals. I can sing the ones I want, just, dont ask me what they were, I hate to use my fingers for counting in public. But, once I have an inner memory of some performance of a piece, mine own or a recording, I can usually sing it from memory at the precise pitch it was played when I heard it. Basically, I am singing along with the inner voice track. Curious all this business, the mind is clearly engaged for all of this but in different ways for each of us. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
On Sep 28, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Christopher Stetson wrote: My question (not answered in the book): In which traditional scale does someone from, for example, Java have AP (or PP); slendro (5 unequally spaced tones to the octave), pelog (seven equally spaced tones), or both? I wish someone would study this outside of the Euro-American tonal system while there's still time. Think of AP as pitch memory and the question answers itself. You remember the pitch you're exposed to. Someone in the rec. music.early group wrote about relearning his absolute pitch when he was exposed to pitches other than 440. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was]New lute music and ET
Eugene-- Your final point is a good one in the temperament wars. What, indeed, did the composer have in mind? How did he/she hear the music? What was it composed upon? And you're right--one seldom hears of a specified intonation. We work off assumptions based on what tunings might have been used, without knowing how accurately they were executed, or if the composer ever worked with other ones for comparison. I (rank amateur) personally like the sound of my lute in meantone (and would go so far as to suggest it to others), but I have no idea what anyone else hears in it, so in the bigger picture perhaps it doesn't matter. Regards, Leonard On 9/26/09 9:33 AM, EUGENE BRAIG IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: I would argue more should be willing to indulge, at least occasionally, in both non-equal and equal temperaments as the musical occasion seems to call for it as determined by the performer (unless explicitly prescribed by a composer...which certainly isn't often, thus these recurring debates). Enjoy, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was]New lute music and ET
Eugene-- Your final point is a good one in the temperament wars. What, indeed, did the composer have in mind? How did he/she hear the music? Composer isnt the isse I think so much as the performers fear of how the audience will perceive the performance. Shalm players are always fussing with the reed. Bagpipe players with the masking tape that festoons the hole on the chanter. Fixed-fret instrument pluckers are always retuning, not always because new strings are settling, more often because the key of the new piece differs enough from the key of the old one that a new subtle shift in temperament helps it to sound better. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
Regarding temperament, I've always what people with absolute pitch think of our various efforts. How would someone with perfect pitch perceive an Ab in F minor in 3rd, 4th, 6th, 11th, or 32.9567 comma meantone? Would this person hear a kind of real Ab, an out of tune Ab or some other species of note altogether? How about a G# in E major? (There's also the issue of pitch level. Let's pretend that our examples are all at 440.) Is there anyone on the list with AP who would care to enlighten us muggles about what you hear? Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
I was born with AP, unfortunately, and lived with it without much thinking to the age of 20. At that time i felt compelled to destroy it. I still know what the individual notes are, but it is rather secondary to hearing the relation between the pitches. The experience (plus being surrounded by other Perfect Pitch equipped musicians) made it clear to me that PP is a function of memory and habit, more then anything else. It is possible to have it working in such a way that a piece once heard at a=440 will sound absolutely unacceptable at a=415, - the mind just refuses to accept it as the same piece of music. It will have the same effect as for a person mechanically counting the same stairs - suddenly to find there are a few missing. However, if intentionally or otherwise a different habit or memory is created (for example for a meantone tuning) - it becomes quite natural. I had a personal experience when, after year of playing only early music, never in ET, confronted with a grand piano that sounded horribly out of tune to me. And so i mentioned to the performer (oh, youth and silliness..), not taking into account that it was a very respected hall and a top notch tuner, and the actual problem was my perfect pitch that has forgotten the Equal Temperament. I think the problems that perfect pitch presents are overcome when the rigidity of the mind is overcome. I have to mention that it is a strong habit oriented mind quality. I thought that i trained my ear to be oriented to the pitch relations rather then actual digital pitch positions, until i started listening and playing persian scales - every out of tune note i literally had to force the finger, as it would refuse to go where needed. In particular to your examples - for an AP person actually the inner relations in the scale are less irritating then the whole scale moved over (especially something like a = 404, or 422 ). You could compare it to a digital tuner - if in the neighborhood - it is C, or D, if you focus a little more - perceive in more detail. alexander On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 05:56:20 -0700 (PDT) chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Regarding temperament, I've always what people with absolute pitch think of our various efforts. How would someone with perfect pitch perceive an Ab in F minor in 3rd, 4th, 6th, 11th, or 32.9567 comma meantone? Would this person hear a kind of real Ab, an out of tune Ab or some other species of note altogether? How about a G# in E major? (There's also the issue of pitch level. Let's pretend that our examples are all at 440.) Is there anyone on the list with AP who would care to enlighten us muggles about what you hear? Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was: Re: New lute music]
Duffin's book is a bit tendentious. I would tend to Mark Twain's exhortation to Believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see. RT ps SOME keyboards were splitkeyed, NOT many. From: Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com RT ET was invented long before, and was advocated by Galilei, Frescobaldi, RT Werckmeister, and many others. RT This is as I thought prior to reading Prof Duffin's book on temperament. Whilst it was invented, and whilst people said they used it, it seems as though, in practice, no-one did. It was not until 1917 that the techniques and tools needed to tune in ET became common. Before that, measurement of Chopin's preferred tuning (when in London he had a favourite tuner, and his pianos were measured at the time) showed that it was in a cyclic 11th comma MT. And he liked the tonal colours that way. Go figure. RT Why not? Fingerboard topography gives enough color, so why mistune? RT Back in the day, many keyboards were split-keyed. The reason that they died was not through tuning, or because of the music, but due to expense. As someone once pointed out, ET makes all keys equally out of tune. It really depends what you are after, I think. Nice thirds? ET is not the way to go. . mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was: Re: New lute music]
On Sep 25, 2009, at 7:51 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: I would tend to Mark Twain's exhortation to Believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see. With the possible exception of the lute list? ;-) D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:54 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Them Egyptians had no tools to build pyramids either. Etruscans had no tools to build the city wall of Amelia. However we have those walls, and some early music playable only in ET. Your analogy is rather less solid than the pyramids. The notion that some early music is playable only in ET is based not on physical evidence, but an assumption grounded only on your own liking for intonation which is never perfect but never weird. The odd thing about that assumption is that we now live in era in which everyone in the West is taught a tuning system in which intonation is never perfect but never weird, and yet the music most people listen to departs from that system constantly, usually to achieve something outside the box. Singers slide in and out of the ET norm (deliberately in the case of Sinatra or Freddie Mercury, maybe accidentally in the case of Mick Jagger and Jim Morrison) and guitarists pull notes all over their their ET-fretted instruments. Gregor Piatigorsky once complained Someone sent me some Beatles albums and I found that they didn't sing in tune. There were millions of other listeners who didn't seem to mind. I don't know if Arto has really disproved that the pyramids exist, but I think you have proved the non-existence of Jimi Hendrix and B.B. King. I rather like those excursions into weirdness when those cento variations or whatever by Frescobaldi or Storace go into remote keys. *(1903-1976) a leading cellist of his day. I actually found the interview, which I originally read in the Los Angeles Times in 1972, at: http://news.google.com/newspapers? nid50dat720709id=oHEUIBAJsjid=BQIEIBAJpgP93,3450033 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
I have no idea who is this JHendrickx, but I think BBKing is the gentleman who made a bit of reputation singing the songs by Jimmy McCracklin. RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: ET FunFest On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:54 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Them Egyptians had no tools to build pyramids either. Etruscans had no tools to build the city wall of Amelia. However we have those walls, and some early music playable only in ET. Your analogy is rather less solid than the pyramids. The notion that some early music is playable only in ET is based not on physical evidence, but an assumption grounded only on your own liking for intonation which is never perfect but never weird. The odd thing about that assumption is that we now live in era in which everyone in the West is taught a tuning system in which intonation is never perfect but never weird, and yet the music most people listen to departs from that system constantly, usually to achieve something outside the box. Singers slide in and out of the ET norm (deliberately in the case of Sinatra or Freddie Mercury, maybe accidentally in the case of Mick Jagger and Jim Morrison) and guitarists pull notes all over their their ET-fretted instruments. Gregor Piatigorsky once complained Someone sent me some Beatles albums and I found that they didn't sing in tune. There were millions of other listeners who didn't seem to mind. I don't know if Arto has really disproved that the pyramids exist, but I think you have proved the non-existence of Jimi Hendrix and B.B. King. I rather like those excursions into weirdness when those cento variations or whatever by Frescobaldi or Storace go into remote keys. *(1903-1976) a leading cellist of his day. I actually found the interview, which I originally read in the Los Angeles Times in 1972, at: http://news.google.com/newspapers? nid50dat720709id=oHEUIBAJsjid=BQIEIBAJpgP93,3450033 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
On Sep 25, 2009, at 8:36 PM, howard posner wrote: The odd thing about that assumption is that we now live in era in which everyone in the West is taught a tuning system in which intonation is never perfect but never weird, and yet the music most people listen to departs from that system constantly, usually to achieve something outside the box. Singers slide in and out of the ET norm (deliberately in the case of Sinatra or Freddie Mercury, maybe accidentally in the case of Mick Jagger and Jim Morrison) and guitarists pull notes all over their their ET-fretted instruments. Gregor Piatigorsky once complained Someone sent me some Beatles albums and I found that they didn't sing in tune. There were millions of other listeners who didn't seem to mind. I don't know if Arto has really disproved that the pyramids exist, but I think you have proved the non-existence of Jimi Hendrix and B.B. King. Yeah, well, on the subject of pop music Piatigorsky was full of it! Howard's right: sliding in and out of the box is where it's at. Or maybe GP would have preferred Hey Jude sung as though it were Nessun dorma! D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest [was: Re: New lute music]
It is often not to be believed RT From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net I would tend to Mark Twain's exhortation to Believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see. With the possible exception of the lute list? ;-) D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
Sliding in and out requires THE box, which is ET. Try sliding around MT, and you'd really start believing Tony Rooley RT - Original Message - From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 9:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: ET FunFest On Sep 25, 2009, at 8:36 PM, howard posner wrote: The odd thing about that assumption is that we now live in era in which everyone in the West is taught a tuning system in which intonation is never perfect but never weird, and yet the music most people listen to departs from that system constantly, usually to achieve something outside the box. Singers slide in and out of the ET norm (deliberately in the case of Sinatra or Freddie Mercury, maybe accidentally in the case of Mick Jagger and Jim Morrison) and guitarists pull notes all over their their ET-fretted instruments. Gregor Piatigorsky once complained Someone sent me some Beatles albums and I found that they didn't sing in tune. There were millions of other listeners who didn't seem to mind. I don't know if Arto has really disproved that the pyramids exist, but I think you have proved the non-existence of Jimi Hendrix and B.B. King. Yeah, well, on the subject of pop music Piatigorsky was full of it! Howard's right: sliding in and out of the box is where it's at. Or maybe GP would have preferred Hey Jude sung as though it were Nessun dorma! D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
On Sep 25, 2009, at 6:14 PM, David Rastall wrote: Or maybe GP would have preferred Hey Jude sung as though it were Nessun dorma! Or Pavarotti singing Queen? http://www.youtube.com/watch?vÇFGPIRJx6I -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
Our perception of the early lack of tools is undermined from time to time by discoveries of early tools. RT - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: ET FunFest On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:54 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Them Egyptians had no tools to build pyramids either. Etruscans had no tools to build the city wall of Amelia. However we have those walls, and some early music playable only in ET. Your analogy is rather less solid than the pyramids. The notion that some early music is playable only in ET is based not on physical evidence, but an assumption grounded only on your own liking for intonation which is never perfect but never weird. The odd thing about that assumption is that we now live in era in which everyone in the West is taught a tuning system in which intonation is never perfect but never weird, and yet the music most people listen to departs from that system constantly, usually to achieve something outside the box. Singers slide in and out of the ET norm (deliberately in the case of Sinatra or Freddie Mercury, maybe accidentally in the case of Mick Jagger and Jim Morrison) and guitarists pull notes all over their their ET-fretted instruments. Gregor Piatigorsky once complained Someone sent me some Beatles albums and I found that they didn't sing in tune. There were millions of other listeners who didn't seem to mind. I don't know if Arto has really disproved that the pyramids exist, but I think you have proved the non-existence of Jimi Hendrix and B.B. King. I rather like those excursions into weirdness when those cento variations or whatever by Frescobaldi or Storace go into remote keys. *(1903-1976) a leading cellist of his day. I actually found the interview, which I originally read in the Los Angeles Times in 1972, at: http://news.google.com/newspapers? nid50dat720709id=oHEUIBAJsjid=BQIEIBAJpgP93,3450033 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
On Sep 25, 2009, at 9:33 PM, howard posner wrote: On Sep 25, 2009, at 6:14 PM, David Rastall wrote: Or maybe GP would have preferred Hey Jude sung as though it were Nessun dorma! Or Pavarotti singing Queen? http://www.youtube.com/watch?vÇFGPIRJx6I Can't argue with that! Verrry cool. D -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ET FunFest
I have just checked this thread and can find no prior mention to Tony Rooley, so could you please ENLIGHTEN us to what he says on ET or MT that you find unbelievable, or is it a general disbelief in his views that you are expressing? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Roman Turovsky Gesendet: Samstag, 26. September 2009 03:21 An: David Rastall; howard posner Cc: Lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: ET FunFest Sliding in and out requires THE box, which is ET. Try sliding around MT, and you'd really start believing Tony Rooley RT - Original Message - From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 9:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: ET FunFest On Sep 25, 2009, at 8:36 PM, howard posner wrote: The odd thing about that assumption is that we now live in era in which everyone in the West is taught a tuning system in which intonation is never perfect but never weird, and yet the music most people listen to departs from that system constantly, usually to achieve something outside the box. Singers slide in and out of the ET norm (deliberately in the case of Sinatra or Freddie Mercury, maybe accidentally in the case of Mick Jagger and Jim Morrison) and guitarists pull notes all over their their ET-fretted instruments. Gregor Piatigorsky once complained Someone sent me some Beatles albums and I found that they didn't sing in tune. There were millions of other listeners who didn't seem to mind. I don't know if Arto has really disproved that the pyramids exist, but I think you have proved the non-existence of Jimi Hendrix and B.B. King. Yeah, well, on the subject of pop music Piatigorsky was full of it! Howard's right: sliding in and out of the box is where it's at. Or maybe GP would have preferred Hey Jude sung as though it were Nessun dorma! D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
