[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli Chilesotti
As far as I can judge the story of the Chilesotti Codice which survived and about the lutenist giving a house concert from it is true - I met the lutenist in question and he confirmed the story. It seems the manuscript is preserved in a bank tresor (I've been told there would be many treasures in tresors because some people buy old books for their insurance value which would get lost if the owner would make the manuscript accessible to the public). A pity! Best wishes Thomas In other words, unless I can lay my hands on the original Codex transcribed by Chilesotti and examine it myself, that Codex does not exist. Even if the story is true and indeed there is some mysterious Italian collector who has it, the mere fact that it is not available for mere mortals like you and me for consultation, renders it into a fairy tale. A pretty one, and no doubt prettier when told by some one you admire and love, but nevertheless, a fairy tale. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli Chilesotti
As far as I can judge the story of the Chilesotti Codice which survived and about the lutenist giving a house concert from it is true - I met the lutenist in question and he confirmed the story. Who was it? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli Chilesotti
Dear Thomas, Yes, thanks for further confirmation that the Codice Lauten-Buch survives. So there is a possibility that we will see it some day. I think there has been some attempt to get the owner to permit a facsimile. I mentioned earlier gthat Paul O'Dette mentions its survival in his CD, several others told me about it at the 1997 Francesco conference in Milan. And Dinko Fabris said he knows to whom it was initially sold shortly after Chilesotti's death. I think it is best to quote the title using the largest word on the page, Lauten-Buch, because it IS a German manuscript and it would be a mistake to represent it as being Italian. There is NO _parallel_ Italian/German titles on the front page and cover of Chilesotti's edition, as Matanya would have us believe. It serial title in Italian reads: Da un Codice Lauten-Buch del Cinquecento Trascrizione in notazione moderna di Oscar Chilesotti. Lipsia Brusselles: Breitkopf Hartel The title is in Italian, with the largest most important word is the archaic German spelling for Lautenbuch spelled as Chilesotti found it in his manuscript, Lauten-Buch. Codice simply means that it is a handwritten Lauten-Buch, rather than a printed one. Ophee knows, for example, that many of the pieces carry the title Tannz, yet he uses Danza, a word that was seldom used in 16th century Italian. I do not understand why Matanya is so intent in disguising the fact that the book is German (copied probably in Nuremberg). Some pieces are copied directly from Denss, and other pieces are by the Italian/Poljish virtuoso Diomedes Cato, who we know visited Bavaria. Maybe we will discover that the pieces are in his handwriting when the facsimile appears. Arthur - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: 'Matanya Ophee' ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 4:50 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli Chilesotti As far as I can judge the story of the Chilesotti Codice which survived and about the lutenist giving a house concert from it is true - I met the lutenist in question and he confirmed the story. It seems the manuscript is preserved in a bank tresor (I've been told there would be many treasures in tresors because some people buy old books for their insurance value which would get lost if the owner would make the manuscript accessible to the public). A pity! Best wishes Thomas In other words, unless I can lay my hands on the original Codex transcribed by Chilesotti and examine it myself, that Codex does not exist. Even if the story is true and indeed there is some mysterious Italian collector who has it, the mere fact that it is not available for mere mortals like you and me for consultation, renders it into a fairy tale. A pretty one, and no doubt prettier when told by some one you admire and love, but nevertheless, a fairy tale. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli Chilesotti
At 06:16 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some people in this lute world are not easily taken in by your silly delusions and require more than just your word for anything. As long as all you can provide is unsubstantiated hearsay and rumors, responsible writers will ignore you. 1. MO, you are the unique individual not taken by Arthur's delusions. Which is why Arthur complained that the Lute reviewer of my Chilesotti edition did not buy into Arthur's fairy tale on the mysterious survival of the manuscript? 2. You are NOT a responsible writer, for the reasons you yourself stated above. What is this, a pissing match between irresponsible writers? Therefore, would you mind taking your hydrogen sulphide someplace else? Let me draw you a picture, in case you still have not understood where I stand on this matter: as long as Arthur continues his campaign against the guitar and against me, and as long as this is an open unmoderated forum, I will continue to point in this forum out that the man is a liar and a fraud, no matter who supports him and who thinks he can be trusted unchallenged. The only way you can stop me from defending myself, here and everywhere else, is by stopping this drunken tantrum that has been going on for well over ten years in this forum. Encouraging it and morally supporting the unsupportable, will only serve to strengthen my resolve to speak out. Poniatno? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli Chilesotti
Matanya, This strikes me as an extremely naive attitude. Documental evidence has lead many people to the wrong conclusions, as documented by the thousands (millions, actually) of pseudo-scholarly papers churned out by both private and public research facilities. I'd rather read liner notes by someone who knows what he is doing, because the chances of his being wrong leading to an interesting mistake are much higher. Science's progress is not from one truth to another, but from one giant mistake to a different one. Sometimes, we get lucky, and the mistake turns out to be useful. Sometimes we get the H-bomb. As for History, it is but a long series of misreadings feeding on each other. Alain, in a cynical mood :) Matanya Ophee wrote: At 01:39 PM 8/25/2005, Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When Paul O'Dette writes the notes, there is no shame in using those, is there? Depends what he said, and how can one verify what he said. If the information delivered is of the same hearsay rumor quality as that provided by Ness, i.e., not backed by any documental evidence whatsoever, then it does not matter who signed his name to the liner notes. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: More Gianconcelli Chilesotti
At 04:01 PM 8/25/2005, Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matanya, This strikes me as an extremely naive attitude. Documental evidence has lead many people to the wrong conclusions, as documented by the thousands (millions, actually) of pseudo-scholarly papers churned out by both private and public research facilities. I'd rather read liner notes by someone who knows what he is doing, because the chances of his being wrong leading to an interesting mistake are much higher. I am sure there is a negative missing someplace in the above sentence... I agree with you that there have been a great deal of pseudo-scholarly papers with the wrong conclusions. But here is the the rub: the only way to know that they were wrong conclusions and that the scholarliness was less than first rate, is by checking the documental evidence provided. Without it, we must resort to trust based on personal admiration to the writer, which is what you seem to be implying here. If that works for you, then of course I wish the best of happiness with the knowledge you obtained. Being an iconoclast heretic, I am not willing to trust anyone, not even myself, on anything. I need to be shown that facts, not somebody's recollections of them. In other words, unless I can lay my hands on the original Codex transcribed by Chilesotti and examine it myself, that Codex does not exist. Even if the story is true and indeed there is some mysterious Italian collector who has it, the mere fact that it is not available for mere mortals like you and me for consultation, renders it into a fairy tale. A pretty one, and no doubt prettier when told by some one you admire and love, but nevertheless, a fairy tale. Of course, I will make a point of getting hold of this O'Dette CD and find out exactly what he says there. By now, it is clear that trusting Arthur Ness to correctly report on stuff he had read someplace, is not a reliable way of learning. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
