[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
It is - but the long recits are tricky! The only modern edition by
Degrada
( [1]https://www.amazon.com/Dirindina-Full-Score-F-Degrada/dp/063407079
7 )
is, naturally, in Italian but there is a literal (practically
unsingable) English translation in the introduction..
So much of the drama/comedy lies in these recits that it's vital the
audience understands them and I'm pessimistic of an English provincial
audience following Italian. Accordingly I'm doing the work in English
in a good idiomatic translation by John Flinders which follows the
recit musical setting . I toyed with the idea of having the recits in
English and the arias, duets etc in Italian (a known, if rare,
historical practice) but plumped for all in English.
The Degrada score has umpteen page turns and not practical for the
strings - hence why I'm having to write out these parts. Ah well -
back to the grindstone.
Incidentally, it's only around 40 mins long, so the first half of the
show is Pergolesi's Stabat Mater... Thus the show is entitled
'Sacred and Profane - the two faces of Naples' , which may be
stretching the Neapolitan link a bit, but hopefully attract the
punters..
rgds
M
On Friday, 10 May 2019, 19:48:53 BST, Lex Eisenhardt
wrote:
La Dirindina! That must be great fun.
Best wishes, Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Namens Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 16:27
Aan: 'Lute List' <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt
<[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com>
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex,
I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time
-
I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string
parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is
what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period
guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to
the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.'
Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails
is entirely up to you.
regards
Martyn
On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt
<[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Martyn.
Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is
clear
that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a
sensitive issue.
Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice
for
no nails was based on.
Best wishes, Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [1][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[2][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Namens Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45
Aan: 'Lute List' <[3][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt
<[4][10]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com>
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex,
You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email
which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's
worth...
Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players:
'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of
modern
guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with
the
occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming
evidence
for the historical practice - either way...'.
regards
Martyn
On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt
<[5][11]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote:
A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and
Paul?
The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly
the
same, and their inferences differ little indeed.
Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it
still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I
understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is
based
on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and
that
that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic
choice?
From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the
theorbo.
Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal
experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the
discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If
anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard
against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as
a
comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of
connecting the dots ourselves.
In the 17th century there probably was l
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
La Dirindina! That must be great fun. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 16:27 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time - I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.' Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails is entirely up to you. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[4]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - Fro
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Well then - are there any recordings? On 10.05.19 17:23, Ralf Mattes wrote: Am Freitag, 10. Mai 2019 16:38 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: .. and no one ever plays Francesco with plectrum-thimbles!!! That's not true. I experimented with finger picks during the 90th, using 'ditali' after dall'Oglio (who describes their use for the salterio) and IIRC Crawford Young did similar experiments. And I'm pretty shure that Lukas Henning has a whole episode on that topic in his me:mo YouTube channel. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Am Freitag, 10. Mai 2019 16:38 CEST, Tristan von Neumann schrieb: > > .. and no one ever plays Francesco with plectrum-thimbles!!! > That's not true. I experimented with finger picks during the 90th, using 'ditali' after dall'Oglio (who describes their use for the salterio) and IIRC Crawford Young did similar experiments. And I'm pretty shure that Lukas Henning has a whole episode on that topic in his me:mo YouTube channel. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
I don't understand this discussion. There are clearly arguments for both playing styles. .. and no one ever plays Francesco with plectrum-thimbles!!! On 10.05.19 16:27, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Lex, I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time - I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.' Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails is entirely up to you. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[4]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message -
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex, I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time - I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.' Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails is entirely up to you. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[4]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[5][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[6][11]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex,
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
I haven't been following this thread all that closely, so apologies if this has been mentioned. The quote about Corbetta says that he was unable to perform not only because he broke a nail, but that the breakage was notable because nails grow back slowly in the elderly. This implies that it was essential to his playing. While ripping a nail to the quick is indeed painful, it's a relatively minor injury from which one recovers fairly quickly. If C had broken a nail on the left hand or if he played with the right hand flesh, he could be back playing in no time. (A pro would probably just soldier on through the pain.) There would be no need for a broken nail to impede his performing at all unless it was needed as part his technique. There is also the engraving of Domenico Pellegrini, which clearly shows long nails on all of his right hand fingers, including the pinky: [1]https://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/news-photo/portrait-of-domenico-pe llegrini-italian-guitarist-engraving-news-photo/587490776 Chris [2]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, May 10, 2019, 9:35 AM, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[8]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[9]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[7]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesti
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[7]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesÃÃ la guitare et au luth Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesÃÃ la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2][8]lute-...@cs.dartm
