[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded] London?
Anthony, Jaroslaw Just one question, first, did you receive my message from the lute list, or was it quite empty. I have been told that some people received a blank message (probably with some relief). Yes, I received your message. Sorry for not replying straight away. Sometimes I'm not at home for a longer period of time. Yes but we can see what they were trying to do by looking at instrument structure, not so easilly by looking at strings, as there are not many available, except the Mest string. I agree that instruments give us some indications on what the tendency of lute evolution was, however we shouldn't forget old writings which give us some clues too. We can see from the sympathetic stringing that they were indeed trying to obtain more sustain, but they could have just put them on the bass end, if it was only bass sustain they were interested in. I didn't say they were interested only in bass sustain. I was talking about bass strings because this is how our conversation began, but you are right that they were trying to enhance sonority of lutes in general. But I am not only interested in the question at a practical level. I do happen to be interested in the whole Bass string mystery question. In relation to that, we can also discuss the Lang Lay rope solution of George, the Spring rope solution of Charles, as well as HT and low tension, or Mimmo's loaded solution. All these hopefully, along with wire wounds can give more varied performances, but actually, I am also interested in the theoretical debate. PARA I know that first and foremost, you are a practical musician, so this may not interest you quite so much, but personally I wouldlisten to the general argumentation, even if the strings were not makeable at present. I am glad there are attempts at realizing them that do work, but I read archeological discussions, that have no obvious practical repercussions, and enjoy the reasoning, per se. I am not sure why you have this impression that I am not interested in solving the mystery of historical strings, on the contrary this is one of my favourite topics as you can see, because type of stringing has very big influence on lute's sound. I'm just not so convinced about what we already have. Anyway, thank you for interesting conversation. Best wishes Jaroslaw Thanks again for making le think. All the best Anthony All the best Jaroslaw I certainly d To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded] London?
Anthony, As far as sustain is concerned I was rather talking about the bass strings. Obviously sustain is related to the instrument construction, but this is another topic. PARA I would not argue against that, but I would suggest that it was not always bass sustain they were looking for. There seems to have been a great deal of research attempted on the way strings resonate, although the full explanations of sympathethetic resonance come a little later, and we see all sorts of instruments with sympathetic strings created (including Dm in which the open strings that are unused do act that way), but this is not just to increase bass sustain. PARA PARA I also agree with Mimmo, but this does not mean that the differences in lute string structure according to register means a less homogeneous sound, on the contrary. Different material has to mean difference in tonal quality. Homogeneous means: 1/of the same nature or kind 2/uniform in structure or composition throughout. The other term is harmonious meaning: having component elements pleasingly or appropriately combined. So real homogeneity is not achievable on baroque lute because of technical problems you mentioned. Moreover I don't think that ideal of homogeneity was valued in Baroque era any longer to the same extent as in past. The only thing we can discuss is smoothness of transition between registers. I agree that it has some importance for French music, however German music works very well on instruments with very distinct registers. Here, I think we understood things differently. I may be wrong, but I thought this superb string, with its magnificient behaviour when held between the hands, was Mimmo's latest version of his Venice loaded. As I understood it, the cream of Tartar was used to obtain an even smoother loading than he had obtained before. The result is that a very thin Venice core could be maintained, as a heavier loading could be used, allowing the loading to be increased in steps on the same core (just as the Dutch lute allows the same thickness of bass to be used for all basses, by increasing their length by steps). This would give an exceptionally low impedance (as explained above) and a remarkably true resonance pattern, as shown by Gerle, Leroy, Mersenne, etc: I can't be sure because Mimmo's explanations on this topic weren't absolutely clear, but as far as I and some other people understood this was just a sample of transitional state of gut production after a treatment with tartar oil (which idea was borrowed not necessarily from the string makers) , however the string would be stiffened again in later phases. Probably this doubt could be solved only by Mimmo himself (I am sorry if I got something wrong). PARA I quite agree, a good lutenist can make beautiful music with wirewounds, and it is true that it can be better to hear an excellent musician on a lute strung that way than a lesser musician with loaded strings. However, that is a little like saying (but to a lesser degree) that you would prefer to hear a first rate pianist playing Bach, than a second rate harpsichordist (when it comes to French harpsichord music, however, I might begin to prefer the second). No, this is just to say that many first class musicians choose wire wounds or synthetics or both (in various combinations) for some reasons. Now, you can ask yourself why. Probably for various reasons. But I don't think that the main reason is they are cheap. Actually they posses some musical qualities that gut doesn't, and it was recognized by some good musicians. Whether you like these qualities or not is a matter of preference, but it can't be denied they posses some valuable virtues. As I repeatedly say, I love gut too, but it's for me just different not necessarily much better. It is better for some music and for some occasions. Unless new types of gut are invented that will surpass all other string types I will use both. All the best Jaroslaw To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded] London?
Jaroslaw Just one question, first, did you receive my message from the lute list, or was it quite empty. I have been told that some people received a blank message (probably with some relief). Anthony, As far as sustain is concerned I was rather talking about the bass strings. Obviously sustain is related to the instrument construction, but this is another topic. Yes but we can see what they were trying to do by looking at instrument structure, not so easilly by looking at strings, as there are not many available, except the Mest string. See for example the French/Dutch lute: we see that the lute maker is trying to achieve the same thickness of rope across all the basses (as Mimmo is trying to do with loading strings). The result could be different in terms of sound quality, but there is a similarity in purpose. We can see from the sympathetic stringing that they were indeed trying to obtain more sustain, but they could have just put them on the bass end, if it was only bass sustain they were interested in. That was the point I was making (admittedly we are talking about Viols and not lutes here, but the aesthetics could be similar). It is not quite true that sympathetic stringing does not concern the strings. The sympathetic stringing was usually in metal, so you could say that it already evokes the idea of using metal and gut together; but still they were for all strings, and not just the bass. However, you are right in relation to the fact that the big problem was the impedance of bass strings, and I believe there were several solutions attempted (possibly Lang Lay, Spring and Loaded), finally demifilA(c) were probably found to be the easiest to make, and also eventually to be preferred aesthetically, but also they may have become almost necessary when the 13th course was added on a rider lute. So yes, in as much as during the whole period bass courses were progressively being added, we could say that we were slowly working towards that goal (but I feel that might be too determinist from the point of a French Dm musician). PARA PARA I also agree with Mimmo, but this does not mean that the differences in lute string structure according to register means a less homogeneous sound, on the contrary. Different material has to mean difference in tonal quality. Homogeneous means: 1/of the same nature or kind 2/uniform in structure or composition throughout. The other term is harmonious meaning: having component elements pleasingly or appropriately combined. So real homogeneity is not achievable on baroque lute because of technical problems you mentioned. Moreover I don't think that ideal of homogeneity was valued in Baroque era any longer to the same extent as in past. The only thing we can discuss is smoothness of transition between registers. I agree that it has some importance for French music, however German music works very well on instruments with very distinct registers. The point is that the different types of string are not chosen to differentiate the voices, but to bring them as close as is possible, to make them sing together, and this can only be done by acheiving a similar impedance across the voices (good harmonicity, or low impedance). Sucess is not 100% that is quite so, it cannot be, but that was true even during the Renaissance period, where we also had Bass, Meanes, and Trebles. You are evidently correct that there is not a sudden break, but a gradual transition from the Renaissance to late German, so depending on what features you look at you will see more of one and less of the other. In a debate, we are forced to simplify to a certain extent, to bring out a particular argument. French Dm could of course be considered closer to late German Baroque than to early Italian Renaissance, (or at least sole of the features will already be there in French Baroque), so, yes, it has to be a question of degree. Here, I think we understood things differently. I may be wrong, but I thought this superb string, with its magnificient behaviour when held between the hands, was Mimmo's latest version of his Venice loaded. As I understood it, the cream of Tartar was used to obtain an even smoother loading than he had obtained before. The result is that a very thin Venice core could be maintained, as a heavier loading could be used, allowing the loading to be increased in steps on the same core (just as the Dutch lute allows the same thickness of bass to be used for all basses, by increasing their length by steps). This would give an exceptionally low impedance (as explained above) and a remarkably true resonance pattern, as shown by Gerle, Leroy, Mersenne, etc:
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded] London?
I have to hear it first. Theoretical
explanations aren't good enough for me. In the end of string
meeting
there was a recital of French music(mainly from Vaudry de Saizenay
manuscript) played by Claire Antonini. I enjoyed it immensely and it
didn't matter that she was playing on the lute strung in nylon and
wire
wounds. It was just a good performance. On the other hand it was a
pity
that Benjamin (who was there too I think) didn't play his all gut
lute.
That would be a great comparison of how stringing influences French
music.
PARA
I quite agree, a good lutenist can make beautiful music with
wirewounds, and it is true that it can be better to hear an excellent
musician on a lute strung that way than a lesser musician with loaded
strings. However, that is a little like saying (but to a lesser degree)
that you would prefer to hear a first rate pianist playing Bach, than a
second rate harpsichordist (when it comes to French harpsichord music,
however, I might begin to prefer the second). A lute strung enirely in
gut with loaded basses, seems almost like a different instrument. Now
which you prefer, is certainly a question of taste, and I certainly
would not say that one was simply better than the other in any absolute
manner.
PARA
Benjamin's lute had only recently been re-strungand would not have
given a good idea of how loaded strings can sound. I have the good
fortune in having a lute strung that way, and also of being able to
compare with the two lutes Benjamin now has strung in the same way.
They are developing well, but it takes a month or so for the loaded
basses to really begin to sing. Venice octaves, as I have said before,
also bring a further improvement.
PARA
When I heard Benjamin playing solo Baroque lute strung with loaded, and
then his Theorbo strung in Lyons in duet with a Baroque flute. I
realized just how well the sound of this type of wooden flute goes both
with pure gut and loaded basses.
I have nothing against wirewounds, indeed, the modern guitar duo with
modern metal flute sounded just as harmonious, I mean the two
(wirewounds and metal flute) also went extremely well together.
Thank you again for this dialogue,
Best wishes
Anthony
Message d'origine
De : JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
A : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu / lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics
[Wirewound/Loaded]?
Date : 19/02/2010 23:01:53 CET
Anthony,
How strange...it looks like we were both the same place and the
same
time not knowing about each other. It's a pity I didn't know you
would
be there too.
Anyway, I have a strong impression from what you are writing, that
during our string talk you were very much relating to the 17
c.French
music. In this case I would be more inclined to agree on the string
choice. However I was rather talking about lute string evolution in
general. Existing sources confirm that the longer sustain wasn't
necessarily avoided as you suggest. On the contrary there were
attempts
made to prolong sustain as much as their technique allowed for. We
can't
compare the tone quality and sustain of their open wire wounds with
our
modern because the wire they used was much thicker then the one we
use
at present and had different contain. But the overall tendency seems
to
be quite clear. Secondly I wasn't talking about modern close wire
wounds. Thirdly, there will always be some critical opinions. This is
how it gets when something new is introduced. Some conservative
people
would despise new inventions which doesn't signify that the rest
would
share this feeling. As I can see, you are looking for the homogeneity
in lute's sound, however I don't think this is the only way a lute
can
work. Mace makes very clear distinctions between lute registers and
probably absolutely different types of strings were used for those
registers as Mimmo were suggesting during the London meeting. I agree
with him in this respect.
He also showed a gut string treated with tartar oil enormously
elastic
which looked more like a rope (it could easily be wound in bundle)
but
obviously it was only a way of preserving gut as I understood from
his
explanations, but not the end result. Unfortunately historical gut
strings made nowadays don't posses these qualities. It is still a
mystery what their gut strings were like. Lack of uniformity in
string
production is not a good explanation so far. It is possible that gut
was
treated somehow in order to make it very elastic.
But back to basses. I am very practical musician as you know, and
before
I say that something works I have to hear it first. Theoretical
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded]?
Anthony, How strange...it looks like we were both the same place and the same time not knowing about each other. It's a pity I didn't know you would be there too. Anyway, I have a strong impression from what you are writing, that during our string talk you were very much relating to the 17 c.French music. In this case I would be more inclined to agree on the string choice. However I was rather talking about lute string evolution in general. Existing sources confirm that the longer sustain wasn't necessarily avoided as you suggest. On the contrary there were attempts made to prolong sustain as much as their technique allowed for. We can't compare the tone quality and sustain of their open wire wounds with our modern because the wire they used was much thicker then the one we use at present and had different contain. But the overall tendency seems to be quite clear. Secondly I wasn't talking about modern close wire wounds. Thirdly, there will always be some critical opinions. This is how it gets when something new is introduced. Some conservative people would despise new inventions which doesn't signify that the rest would share this feeling. As I can see, you are looking for the homogeneity in lute's sound, however I don't think this is the only way a lute can work. Mace makes very clear distinctions between lute registers and probably absolutely different types of strings were used for those registers as Mimmo were suggesting during the London meeting. I agree with him in this respect. He also showed a gut string treated with tartar oil enormously elastic which looked more like a rope (it could easily be wound in bundle) but obviously it was only a way of preserving gut as I understood from his explanations, but not the end result. Unfortunately historical gut strings made nowadays don't posses these qualities. It is still a mystery what their gut strings were like. Lack of uniformity in string production is not a good explanation so far. It is possible that gut was treated somehow in order to make it very elastic. But back to basses. I am very practical musician as you know, and before I say that something works I have to hear it first. Theoretical explanations aren't good enough for me. In the end of string meeting there was a recital of French music(mainly from Vaudry de Saizenay manuscript) played by Claire Antonini. I enjoyed it immensely and it didn't matter that she was playing on the lute strung in nylon and wire wounds. It was just a good performance. On the other hand it was a pity that Benjamin (who was there too I think) didn't play his all gut lute. That would be a great comparison of how stringing influences French music. All the best Jaroslaw PARA However, as Martin tells us, it is the Burwell lute book, which explains that the French removed the low octave from the 11th course because the sound of it was too big (not necessarily sustained) and smothered the other strings. Although some do consider this as an explanation after the event, of the way some lutenists may have altered their 10c lutes to 11c without changing the peg structure, nevertheless, this does not seem to indicate a love of deep bass, among the later French Baroque lutenists, which might have lead to their preferring demi-filA(c) strings. PARA Indeed, according to Charles Besnainou (message to the French lute list), gimping and wrapping were well known in the embroidery trade for several hundred years, and so the technology was at hand, if anyone had felt a need for their use; but as Martin points out, after Playford, no lute treaty (Burwell or Mace) even mentions these string types. PARA Ch.B. goes on to write, more than a century after the invention of wirewounds advertized in the English Dancing Master of John Playford (Londres, 1651), we find this critical commentary in l'Art du faiseur d'instruments (l'EncyclopA(c)die MA(c)thodique, Paris, 1785) : A a|les bourdons filA(c)s ont l'inconvA(c)nient de dominer trop sur les autres cordes, et d'en faire perdre le son final par la durA(c)e du leur, dans les batteries de guitares. A Thus as late as 1785 wire wounds (most possibly full wirewounds) are described as overpowering the other voices and covering them completely in their moment of decay; and this quality/defect for French Baroque Dm music, remains, in my mind, a real problem with full wirewounds today, and which damping does not completely allay. PARA On the other hand, Claude Perrault (quoted by MP), in OUVRES DE PYSIQUE, AMSTERDAM 1680, seems to agree with Jaroslav: of wirewounds he says, ...c'est par cette mA-ame raison que la maniere que l'on a inventA(c)e depuis peu de charger les cordes a boyau, rend leur son beaucop plus fort: car le fil de metail trait... (27).
[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded]?
Hello Jaroslaw, Martin, Ed and Alexander, Sorry for my late (and long-winded) response, I have only just returned from the London string conference, of which more perhaps later. PARA For the moment I would just like to respond to these last messages about the sustain of lute strings. I agree entirely with what you have just said, Jaroslaw, about half wire wounds and varying taste concerning bass prominence, except possibly for this remark, which I understand (perhaps wrongly?) as an argument for preferring wirewounds to pure gut or loaded, for all Baroque lute music (although, you might also be meaning silk overspuns): Actually he (Playford?) was praising newly invented wire (gimped) strings which had much better sound quality then ordinary gut. As you see it looks like they were looking for new string material because gut wasn't ideal and they liked stronger, louder tone with more sustain. Jaroslaw PARA Although, in the early 17th century, Lutenists and Gambists were experimenting with new open tunings (and even with sympathetic strings, see Lyra Viol, and perhaps Mace's Diphone lute) which should help the sustain of all strings through sympathetic resonance, there are indications that it was not just the basses they were trying to improve. A preference for old Bologna lutes could also be a sign that overall improved sustain (with clarity) was the goal, rather than the deep bass that can be helped by the fuller forms of many Venetian/Paduan style lutes, which had been adopted by many late Renaissance and early Transitional players. PARA Indeed, I notice that a full bodied lute, even with wirewounds, can work fairly well for the dark late renaissance or transitional music of a Cuthbert Hely in the hands of Liz Kenny (although I feel that less metallic loaded basses would have sounded even better) [1]http://tinyurl.com/ykm8wms [2]http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00285HBXO/ref=dm_dp_trk17 PARA However, as Martin tells us, it is the Burwell lute book, which explains that the French removed the low octave from the 11th course because the sound of it was too big (not necessarily sustained) and smothered the other strings. Although some do consider this as an explanation after the event, of the way some lutenists may have altered their 10c lutes to 11c without changing the peg structure, nevertheless, this does not seem to indicate a love of deep bass, among the later French Baroque lutenists, which might have lead to their preferring demi-filA(c) strings. PARA Indeed, according to Charles Besnainou (message to the French lute list), gimping and wrapping were well known in the embroidery trade for several hundred years, and so the technology was at hand, if anyone had felt a need for their use; but as Martin points out, after Playford, no lute treaty (Burwell or Mace) even mentions these string types. PARA Ch.B. goes on to write, more than a century after the invention of wirewounds advertized in the English Dancing Master of John Playford (Londres, 1651), we find this critical commentary in l'Art du faiseur d'instruments (l'EncyclopA(c)die MA(c)thodique, Paris, 1785) : A a|les bourdons filA(c)s ont l'inconvA(c)nient de dominer trop sur les autres cordes, et d'en faire perdre le son final par la durA(c)e du leur, dans les batteries de guitares. A Thus as late as 1785 wire wounds (most possibly full wirewounds) are described as overpowering the other voices and covering them completely in their moment of decay; and this quality/defect for French Baroque Dm music, remains, in my mind, a real problem with full wirewounds today, and which damping does not completely allay. PARA On the other hand, Claude Perrault (quoted by MP), in OUVRES DE PYSIQUE, AMSTERDAM 1680, seems to agree with Jaroslav: of wirewounds he says, ...c'est par cette mA-ame raison que la maniere que l'on a inventA(c)e depuis peu de charger les cordes a boyau, rend leur son beaucop plus fort: car le fil de metail trait... (27). [3]http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut.ht ml?start=3 PARA These contrasting remarks could be two different views of the same bass string type (as Jaroslaw rightly says taste can differ), but it is also possible that in this 1680 text, CP is talking about demi-filA(c), while in the 1785 text, the author is talking about full-wounds. Indeed, CP insists on the fact that this improved loudness is achieved without any change to the tonal sound of the string, as their vibrational structure is not altered, because the stiffness or the flexibility of the resonating body remains unchanged. [4]http://www.aquilacorde.com/en/researches/our-works/loading-of-gut/39 .html PARA Now this does sound like a demi-filA(c), whose open wire leaves the
