[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
Sorry I'm late to this discussion, but for what it's worth: Well said, Howard. Dance and song are what it was all about, back then (and now). Some modern lutenists seem to habitually play "out of time" in a more or less random manner in an attempt to be "expressive" rather than boring. (In my opinion Nigel North does *not* come into this category, as his playing always has a musical direction). Bending the timing of notes is always necessary to a greater or lesser extent, but it is always necessary that it has a context in order to be understood, and that context is a steady tempo or (more importantly) a comprehensible rhythm. Bending time should only be done for musical/rhetorical reasons, not randomly. It only has an expressive effect if the listener has a clear idea, on the basis of what has just been played, of when the next beat is going to come. BTW, tempo "rubato" is always just that - stolen, not borrowed. If you take more time over some notes, that's fine but you don't ever speed up to compensate. No one ever did, it would sound ridiculous. Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
On Apr 10, 2013, at 1:37 PM, howard posner wrote: > What they did with that approach was likely as variable as what we do. By which I meant that one person's approach would differ from another's just as we have different approaches today. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
On Apr 9, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bruno Correia wrote: > Absolute strict time was certainly unknown to them (musicians), we take > this idea for granted nowadays because of the mechanical age we live > in. Absolute precision is our game not theirsÂ… *Absolute* precision is no more our game than theirs, unless electronic means are used in the actual music-making, rather than just practicing. The demands of dancing and marching haven't changed, and even orchestras led by superstar conductors and rock bands driven by superstar drummers will slow down or speed up unintentionally. > the duties of a > professional included to compose, arrange, teach, play solos, acompany > singers, play continuo and much more. But did the amateurs have the > same duties? Maybe playing solos was indeed very common, and > people spent a good deal of time on it. Assuredly so. Jane Pickering and Margaret Board were serious devotees of solo music, but they would have spent lots of time dancing, because they didn't have television, football or video games, and they would have spent a lot of time singing because that's what musically literate people did. Song and dance informed solo music, because music was primarily about song and dance, and forms taken from song and dance. The galliard and allemande were in their physical memories, and the voice was the sonic ideal, as you've no doubt noticed from all the claims on behalf of one instrument or another that it, above all instruments, most closely approximates the voice. So when we ask what their approach to rhythm was, we have to start with song and dance, as any renaissance musician, amateur or professional, did. What they did with that approach was likely as variable as what we do. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
On 4/9/13 7:09 PM, "Leonard Williams" wrote: >In an interview before an audience of classical guitarists, Paul O'Dette >addressed (among other things) the issue of strict time in pieces like >recercari. His >comments were geared somewhat toward one's ability to play more >complicated >passages. We often hear the instruction to find the most difficult part >of a piece and gauge our tactus to our ability to play it cleanly. This, >however, can result in a predominantly slow, boring piece of music. So, >he >advised, play the piece at an esthetically pleasing pace, and just slow >down bit going into the difficult places and make the whole piece worth >listening to. After all, the composer didn't intend his music to be >boring. > >Here are links to the two-part interview: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clxoDOwK-qI > >and > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ5vltWA0IY > >Regards, >Leonard Williams > >On 4/8/13 7:51 PM, "Tobiah" wrote: > >>I sometimes struggle with the desire to warp the >>tempo of a lute piece, to accentuate a beautiful >>or pivotal phrase, or to keep myself interested >>during a more mundane passage. >> >>I've heard it expressed by one professor, that >>absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. >>I also remember the notion that rubato, in the romantic >>period, was just a way of lending or borrowing time >>in such a way that the same piece played straight through >>at a constant tempo would end at the same time as the >>performance where rubato was performed. >> >>All of this is bait for discussion, but also a precursor >>to a main query. I attempted to play along with a youtube >>video of a fellow playing Francesco, and found that it >>was impossible to do; he took wild liberties with the >>tempo at every whim (either that or I can't play in time!). >>I wanted to hear some comment on that aspect of the performance, >>as well as on any other point I have raised. >> >>Thanks! >> >>Tobiah >> >> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
Dear Howard, Who were "they"? Absolute strict time was certainly unknown to them (musicians), we take this idea for granted nowadays because of the mechanical age we live in. Absolute precision is our game not theirs... If "they" were dancers, they probably valued musicians who kept strict time. Sure, when playing together we must be together. The example given is of a solo performance by Mr. North. Solo music by nature allows us to be freer in time. I imagine a group of amateurs playing or singing multi-part music would keep fairly strict time just in the interest of staying together, unless there were good reason (in the words, for example) to alter the tactus. Exactly, not just amateurs but professional too. These were musical activities far more important than solo lute music, and lute players participated in them. Well, by the sheer number of 16th century solo publications for lute, I wouldn't be so sure of such statement. Nobody spent the bulk of their musical time practicing solo lute music, which is something we can easily forget if solo music is the biggest part of our own musical efforts. Oh yes, who is nobody? Amateurs or professionals? Well, the duties of a professional included to compose, arrange, teach, play solos, acompany singers, play continuo and much more. But did the amateurs have the same duties? Maybe playing solos was indeed very common, and people spent a good deal of time on it. It seems that Lully paid a high price trying to keep musicians playing in absolute strict time... 2013/4/9 howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> On Apr 8, 2013, at 7:26 PM, Bruno Correia <[2]bruno.l...@gmail.com> wrote: > How absolute metric time could have been acheived in the Renaissance? > The tactus was a constant pulse behind the rhythm, but it was an > organic motion not a strict measured time like a metronome. > Actually, the only genre of music (which comes to my mind) that really > plays in time is pop music... How do we know they valued absolute > strict time in the Renaissance? Who were "they"? If "they" were dancers, they probably valued musicians who kept strict time. I imagine a group of amateurs playing or singing multi-part music would keep fairly strict time just in the interest of staying together, unless there were good reason (in the words, for example) to alter the tactus. These were musical activities far more important than solo lute music, and lute players participated in them. Nobody spent the bulk of their musical time practicing solo lute music, which is something we can easily forget if solo music is the biggest part of our own musical efforts. I don't mean to suggest that you should set your metronome at the beginning of a polyphonic fantasy and stick doggedly with it. I think that variation in tempo would have been part of an approach that relied heavily on understanding music in the rhetorical terms that were part of an educated person's vocabulary. You might, for example, vary the tempo if you perceive a phrase as an anadiplosis or an anaphora, and two players might have differing views about such things. So there might not actually have been a "they." Is there any reason to think there weren't just as many views about how to play something as there are now? This was, after all, an age utterly without the homogenizing influence of recordings and radio. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Correia Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
For those genres that value strict timing, add bluegrass. Right or wrong, those cats can be some of the most elitism-prone musicians I've ever encountered. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Bruno Correia Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:27 PM Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision. Hello Tobiah, How absolute metric time could have been acheived in the Renaissance? The tactus was a constant pulse behind the rhythm, but it was an organic motion not a strict measured time like a metronome. Actually, the only genre of music (which comes to my mind) that really plays in time is pop music... How do we know they valued absolute strict time in the Renaissance? I've heard it expressed by one professor, that absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. 2013/4/8 Tobiah <[1]t...@tobiah.org> I sometimes struggle with the desire to warp the tempo of a lute piece, to accentuate a beautiful or pivotal phrase, or to keep myself interested during a more mundane passage. I've heard it expressed by one professor, that absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. I also remember the notion that rubato, in the romantic period, was just a way of lending or borrowing time in such a way that the same piece played straight through at a constant tempo would end at the same time as the performance where rubato was performed. All of this is bait for discussion, but also a precursor to a main query. I attempted to play along with a youtube video of a fellow playing Francesco, and found that it was impossible to do; he took wild liberties with the tempo at every whim (either that or I can't play in time!). I wanted to hear some comment on that aspect of the performance, as well as on any other point I have raised. Thanks! Tobiah [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Correia Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:t...@tobiah.org 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
Hi, my opinion: dance music is the only genre in renaissance music with a strict pulse (that makes it so difficult for me to play it :-) ) w. Gesendet: Dienstag, 09. April 2013 um 04:37 Uhr Von: "Miles Dempster" An: "lutelist Net" Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision. Hello Tobiah, Einstein established that time (and space) is affected by gravity. Just think of travelling through a musical piece where its emotional gravity constantly changes. It will speed up and down accordingly, but the metre will remain the same. Just a thought. Miles On 2013-04-08, at 10:26 PM, Bruno Correia wrote: > Hello Tobiah, > > How absolute metric time could have been acheived in the Renaissance? > The tactus was a constant pulse behind the rhythm, but it was an > organic motion not a strict measured time like a metronome. > Actually, the only genre of music (which comes to my mind) that really > plays in time is pop music... How do we know they valued absolute > strict time in the Renaissance? > > I've heard it expressed by one professor, that > absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. > > 2013/4/8 Tobiah <[1]t...@tobiah.org> > > I sometimes struggle with the desire to warp the > tempo of a lute piece, to accentuate a beautiful > or pivotal phrase, or to keep myself interested > during a more mundane passage. > I've heard it expressed by one professor, that > absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. > I also remember the notion that rubato, in the romantic > period, was just a way of lending or borrowing time > in such a way that the same piece played straight through > at a constant tempo would end at the same time as the > performance where rubato was performed. > All of this is bait for discussion, but also a precursor > to a main query. I attempted to play along with a youtube > video of a fellow playing Francesco, and found that it > was impossible to do; he took wild liberties with the > tempo at every whim (either that or I can't play in time!). > I wanted to hear some comment on that aspect of the performance, > as well as on any other point I have raised. > Thanks! > Tobiah > [2][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Bruno Correia > > Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao > historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. > Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela > Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:t...@tobiah.org > 2. [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM > 3. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
On Apr 8, 2013, at 7:26 PM, Bruno Correia wrote: > How absolute metric time could have been acheived in the Renaissance? > The tactus was a constant pulse behind the rhythm, but it was an > organic motion not a strict measured time like a metronome. > Actually, the only genre of music (which comes to my mind) that really > plays in time is pop music... How do we know they valued absolute > strict time in the Renaissance? Who were "they"? If "they" were dancers, they probably valued musicians who kept strict time. I imagine a group of amateurs playing or singing multi-part music would keep fairly strict time just in the interest of staying together, unless there were good reason (in the words, for example) to alter the tactus. These were musical activities far more important than solo lute music, and lute players participated in them. Nobody spent the bulk of their musical time practicing solo lute music, which is something we can easily forget if solo music is the biggest part of our own musical efforts. I don't mean to suggest that you should set your metronome at the beginning of a polyphonic fantasy and stick doggedly with it. I think that variation in tempo would have been part of an approach that relied heavily on understanding music in the rhetorical terms that were part of an educated person's vocabulary. You might, for example, vary the tempo if you perceive a phrase as an anadiplosis or an anaphora, and two players might have differing views about such things. So there might not actually have been a "they." Is there any reason to think there weren't just as many views about how to play something as there are now? This was, after all, an age utterly without the homogenizing influence of recordings and radio. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
Tobiah, --- On Mon, 4/8/13, Tobiah wrote: > I've heard it expressed by one professor, that > absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. I very much doubt it. I've never met anyone who was alive during the Renaissance to tell me what people desired in a tactus. Perhaps the professor is older. > I also remember the notion that rubato, in the romantic > period, was just a way of lending or borrowing time > in such a way that the same piece played straight through > at a constant tempo would end at the same time as the > performance where rubato was performed. Various 19th century writers discuss rubato in terms similar to this. Rubato is also described as a strict accompaniment over which a melodic part may ebb and flow freely. I've done a bit of study of the subject of 19th century performance practice and I know of no late 19th century/early 20th century recordings that utilize either type of rubato - at least none that would qualify as a concrete demonstration of the definitions. That is because the very words used to define the term "rubato" are highly subjective. What may have sounded "strict" or "steady" to 19th century ears sounds like serious liberties with the beat to us. Today we're constantly inundated with devices utilizing time measurement precision of a kind inconceivable to musicians of the past. Their frames of reference were decidedly non-mechanical. They drew tempo analogues to the speed of natural cycles such as the rate of a heart beat, walking or breathing. This, even after the invention of the metronome. Hummel wrote that, "Many people erroneously imagine that, in applying the metronome, they are bound to follow its equal and undeviating motion throughout the whole piece." How much can we extrapolate these themes back in time? I dunno. Ask your professor who knows those folks from the Renaissance. ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
Hello Tobiah, Einstein established that time (and space) is affected by gravity. Just think of travelling through a musical piece where its emotional gravity constantly changes. It will speed up and down accordingly, but the metre will remain the same. Just a thought. Miles On 2013-04-08, at 10:26 PM, Bruno Correia wrote: > Hello Tobiah, > > How absolute metric time could have been acheived in the Renaissance? > The tactus was a constant pulse behind the rhythm, but it was an > organic motion not a strict measured time like a metronome. > Actually, the only genre of music (which comes to my mind) that really > plays in time is pop music... How do we know they valued absolute > strict time in the Renaissance? > > I've heard it expressed by one professor, that > absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. > > 2013/4/8 Tobiah <[1]t...@tobiah.org> > > I sometimes struggle with the desire to warp the > tempo of a lute piece, to accentuate a beautiful > or pivotal phrase, or to keep myself interested > during a more mundane passage. > I've heard it expressed by one professor, that > absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. > I also remember the notion that rubato, in the romantic > period, was just a way of lending or borrowing time > in such a way that the same piece played straight through > at a constant tempo would end at the same time as the > performance where rubato was performed. > All of this is bait for discussion, but also a precursor > to a main query. I attempted to play along with a youtube > video of a fellow playing Francesco, and found that it > was impossible to do; he took wild liberties with the > tempo at every whim (either that or I can't play in time!). > I wanted to hear some comment on that aspect of the performance, > as well as on any other point I have raised. > Thanks! > Tobiah > [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Bruno Correia > > Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao > historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. > Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela > Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:t...@tobiah.org > 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.
Hello Tobiah, How absolute metric time could have been acheived in the Renaissance? The tactus was a constant pulse behind the rhythm, but it was an organic motion not a strict measured time like a metronome. Actually, the only genre of music (which comes to my mind) that really plays in time is pop music... How do we know they valued absolute strict time in the Renaissance? I've heard it expressed by one professor, that absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. 2013/4/8 Tobiah <[1]t...@tobiah.org> I sometimes struggle with the desire to warp the tempo of a lute piece, to accentuate a beautiful or pivotal phrase, or to keep myself interested during a more mundane passage. I've heard it expressed by one professor, that absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance. I also remember the notion that rubato, in the romantic period, was just a way of lending or borrowing time in such a way that the same piece played straight through at a constant tempo would end at the same time as the performance where rubato was performed. All of this is bait for discussion, but also a precursor to a main query. I attempted to play along with a youtube video of a fellow playing Francesco, and found that it was impossible to do; he took wild liberties with the tempo at every whim (either that or I can't play in time!). I wanted to hear some comment on that aspect of the performance, as well as on any other point I have raised. Thanks! Tobiah [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Correia Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:t...@tobiah.org 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
