[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Tune the lute down to English consort pitch (a-392, the whole step below a=440). A very nice sound, really! On the other hand, "Time stands still" plays quite well in F, with F 7th course. "Come ..." not as well. alexander >A singer has asked me to accompany her on "Come heavy sleep" and "Time >stands still." The problem is, she wants to sing them in F (down a >whole step) because it's a better range for her voice. Has anyone >tried transposing them down? Any thoughts on how well (or not) this >works? >I could tune down to 415 but I'm not sure she'll go for that. >thanks, >Caroline > -- > * > Caroline Usher, Dept. of Biology > Box 90338 > Durham NC 27708 > 919-613-8155, fax 660-7293 > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
I routinely play lute songs down a whole step and that is normally the best transposition. If reading it down a step is daunting, just download the Fronimo file from Sarge's website and have the computer do a rough transposition. You will have to clean up some of the voice leading. I also keep a lute in F and in E for lute songs, but some of the songs really are quite playable down a step. The two songs that you mention rely heavily on the low G, but they will still work, you can play the F (was the G) up an octave on the open string, or, if you have an open low F, even better, For verse two of "Come heavy sheep" Try "Come shape of rest and shadow of my end" as an alternative that fits the music better for the first line. dt At 06:57 AM 2/13/2009, you wrote: >A singer has asked me to accompany her on "Come heavy sleep" and "Time >stands still." The problem is, she wants to sing them in F (down a >whole step) because it's a better range for her voice. Has anyone >tried transposing them down? Any thoughts on how well (or not) this >works? >I could tune down to 415 but I'm not sure she'll go for that. >thanks, >Caroline >-- >* >Caroline Usher, Dept. of Biology >Box 90338 >Durham NC 27708 >919-613-8155, fax 660-7293 > >-- > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009, Caroline Usher said: >I could tune down to 415 but I'm not sure she'll go for that. so long as it holds for the whole program and doesnt delay things, why not? Best if you restring so the instrument is still lively. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Read the notation as if you were playing in the original key on an A lute. Any experience reading guitar notation (except for the 2 staff actual octave pitch) one simply pretends to be back on the guitar, but with an additional high a string. Of course A tuned theorbists would also find this practical. Transposing tab also an option, it's all just symbols. Dan >A singer has asked me to accompany her on "Come heavy sleep" and "Time >stands still." The problem is, she wants to sing them in F (down a >whole step) because it's a better range for her voice. Has anyone >tried transposing them down? Any thoughts on how well (or not) this >works? >I could tune down to 415 but I'm not sure she'll go for that. >thanks, >Caroline -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Rebutting myself here, any new mind tricks for a new situation (good practice at home) can go right out the window once you're actually doing stuff live in concert; if you have the time written out transcriptions in any format that you can read/play in your sleep is going to be far preferable once the rubber hits the road. >Read the notation as if you were playing in the original key on an A >lute. Any experience reading guitar notation (except for the 2 staff >actual octave pitch) one simply pretends to be back on the guitar, >but with an additional high a string. Of course A tuned theorbists >would also find this practical. Transposing tab also an option, it's >all just symbols. > >Dan > > >> A singer has asked me to accompany her on "Come heavy sleep" and "Time >> stands still." The problem is, she wants to sing them in F (down a >> whole step) because it's a better range for her voice. Has anyone >> tried transposing them down? Any thoughts on how well (or not) this >> works? >> I could tune down to 415 but I'm not sure she'll go for that. >> thanks, > >Caroline -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
>I could tune down to 415 but I'm not sure she'll go for that. If your string tension is not too light, down a half step often works. Depending on other factors, of course, the lute may sound even better. Down a whole step could be disaster without a whole re-stringing job, and we do not want to give singers that much power over us. Maybe she could sniff a little helium and go up a half-step or two herself? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Transposing any song is easy. You just sing it lower, or higher, or whatever. I imagine it's transposing the lute part that poses the problems. If you're particular about playing the exact thing that Dowland wrote, only to pitch it a step lower, then the best thing would be to play it on a lute in F. Failing that, you're going to have to compromise somewhere: You could tune your lute lower, but that might not sound very good You could play the part on guitar in lute tuning with a capo on the 1st fret. Or in E, without capo. You could sacrifice Dowland's polyphony (aaargh!! blasphemy!!): look at the lute parts and figure out what the harmonies are, then just play your own accompaniments using chords that would fit the songs in whatever keys your singer needs. You wouldn't be showcasing the Big D that way, but at least you could perform the piece as a song. You could take the bass line of each of the songs, transpose it to the desired key, and work out a continuo part of some kind, based on the harmonies you see in the song. That would at least have some historical integrity. DR On Feb 13, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Caroline Usher wrote: >A singer has asked me to accompany her on "Come heavy sleep" and > "Time >stands still." The problem is, she wants to sing them in F (down a >whole step) because it's a better range for her voice. Has anyone >tried transposing them down? Any thoughts on how well (or not) > this >works? >I could tune down to 415 but I'm not sure she'll go for that. >thanks, >Caroline > -- > * > Caroline Usher, Dept. of Biology > Box 90338 > Durham NC 27708 > 919-613-8155, fax 660-7293 > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html dlu...@verizon.net --
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Hi all, I think Dowland himself would not have objected to transposing a lute song to suit the tessitura of a particular singer. Most of his songs can quite comfortably be played in various tonalities as I have done on many occasions. At times new ideas emerge because of the different sonorities being produced by my trusty lute. Lex van Sante To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Dowland transposed all the time--except he put the music into a MORE difficult key. dt At 02:00 PM 2/14/2009, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I think Dowland himself would not have objected to transposing a lute >song to suit the tessitura of a particular singer. >Most of his songs can quite comfortably be played in various >tonalities as I have done on many occasions. At times new ideas emerge >because of the different sonorities being produced by my trusty lute. > >Lex van Sante > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On the subject of lutenists accommodating (or not) singers: Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and singer - I'm thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed on? Would the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the singer had trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the singer helpfully adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute accompaniment? Or does it just work with voice and lute in different temperaments? I've never been clear about this... Andrew On 15 Feb 2009, at 07:52, David Tayler wrote: Dowland transposed all the time--except he put the music into a MORE difficult key. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Hi all! Andrew wrote: On the subject of lutenists accommodating (or not) singers: Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and singer - I'm thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed on? Would the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the singer had trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the singer helpfully adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute accompaniment? Or does it just work with voice and lute in different temperaments? I've never been clear about this... In my opinion composers who set music to words would have been inclined to use special sonorities offered by unequal temperaments to underline the sentiment of word. A singer singing in another temperament would certainly destroy or at least alter these effects. I for one find the alteration of more and less pure intervals, when for instance a 6th comma meantone temperament is employed, highly exciting. Cheers, Lex van Sante -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Feb 15, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Lex van Sante wrote: >Hi all! > >Andrew wrote: > >On the subject of lutenists accommodating (or not) singers: >Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and > singer - I'm >thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed > on? Would >the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the singer had >trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the singer > helpfully >adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute accompaniment? Or > does it >just work with voice and lute in different temperaments? I've never >been clear about this... A not-so-unlikely scenario: soprano: Uh, I think we're a little harsh-sounding at this point here. lutenist: Uh, I am playing in multiple- comma-6thtone-7thtone-8thtone-9thtone-semicolontone-meantone tuning, which is the appropriate tuning for the period of April 17th, 1589 through March 25th, 1637: the era that this song comes from soprano thinks, "what is this guy, some kind of seminar junkie?" and goes out and finds herself a better musician. lutenist for ever after condemns all sopranos for being "temperamental" and stubbornly resistant to his attempts to educate them in the ways of HIP soprano finds another lutenist. They try the song. It comes out perfectly. soprano, delighted with her second lutenist, repeats to herself the old dictum, "when you're working with a good musician there's not much need to say anything; when you're not working with a good musician, there's not much point in saying anything" >In my opinion composers who set music to words would have been > inclined >to use special sonorities offered by unequal temperaments to > underline >the sentiment of word. A singer singing in another temperament > would >certainly destroy or at least alter these effects. Agreed, but adjustments can be made if both musicians know what they're doing, and are willing to negotiate. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Feb 15, 2009, at 3:22 AM, Andrew Gibbs wrote: > Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and singer - > I'm thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed > on? Would the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the > singer had trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the > singer helpfully adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute > accompaniment? Or does it just work with voice and lute in > different temperaments? I've never been clear about this... Temperament is mostly the concern of musicians who play fixed-pitch instruments. A singer doesn't have to worry about it, because the singer can adjust as needed. Temperament is just a poor substitute for what a good singer does as a matter of course. In any event, it strikes me as unlikely to the point of absurdity that a singer could remember and reproduce the difference between fifth-comma and sixth-comma meantone, but no singer I've ever worked with has even had occasion to talk about temperament. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 6:55 PM, howard posner wrote: > Temperament is mostly the concern of musicians who play fixed-pitch > instruments. A singer doesn't have to worry about it, because the > singer can adjust as needed. Temperament is just a poor substitute > for what a good singer does as a matter of course. > > In any event, it strikes me as unlikely to the point of absurdity > that a singer could remember and reproduce the difference between > fifth-comma and sixth-comma meantone, 1/5 or 1/6 MT is an absurd example, you're right, but ET, 1/4 MT or Pythagorean temperaments are wide enough apart to be _very_ obvious to any singer. Most singers are aware of what is happening around them, without giving it the names we do, as there's no need for them to understand the system used. In stead, they will remember things like wide thirds, take care with the d#, not quite pure fifths, etc. And many singers will ofcourse adjust thirds in final chords to their own taste, or to the temperament at hand, depending on the temperament/divaness of the singer. I'm often asked to leave out the thirds in final chords to give the change to the singer to make a more beautiful one than my fixed fret can give. But any sensitive continuo player will do this as a matter of course. As said here before: with good musicians there's no need to discuss anything, with the bad ones there's no use. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
>As said here before: with good musicians there's no need to >discuss anything, with the bad ones there's no use. >David Does that mean that we are neither? :) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
This is a point I'd like to understand better, too. Learning to fret one's instrument and be (nominally) in tune w/ other instruments forces us to confront meantone and understand it to some degree. If we always play on our own or only with other ET instruments we don't have to. When two lutenists get together we immediately see whether the other is in a temperment or not. Singers aren't so forced or so, ahem, 'nerdy' and often won't know what meantone we use. Indeed, aurally, using a 1/6 comma often only appears evident to _us_ in an overall feeling of "Gosh my lute sounds slightly more in tune" without knowing the science behind it. Face it, we hear the better intonation because we are actually playing the 3rds & 6ths _against_ another note --ie. we play polyphony-- even when we play on our own. What keeps singers' 3rds and 6ths true if they constantly switch from ET to various temperments (if they ever switch at all)? One can hope they're understanding what's going on by ear but I keep imagining the following scenario: EK: Would you like to try a form of meantone for the Dowland songs? Sting: A what? From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly choose a specific meantone scale? Do you ever get instructions to (not) temper your frets? Is there an unspoken, assumed rule of thumb here? When you set up with a new group do you ask about meantone? Of course it's not necessary to say anything but if I suggested 1/4 comma to a professional singer or group (for an appropriate era, piece or concert) would that be out of line? There are groups that don't appear to resolve this --to the audiences' dismay. Sean On Feb 15, 2009, at 4:51 AM, Lex van Sante wrote: Hi all! Andrew wrote: On the subject of lutenists accommodating (or not) singers: Is there any evidence of what temperament the lutenist and singer - I'm thinking mainly of late 16th c lute songs - would have agreed on? Would the lutenist tune to get close to the temperament the singer had trained to sing in (just intonation?) - or would the singer helpfully adjust to suit the tending-towards-ET lute accompaniment? Or does it just work with voice and lute in different temperaments? I've never been clear about this... In my opinion composers who set music to words would have been inclined to use special sonorities offered by unequal temperaments to underline the sentiment of word. A singer singing in another temperament would certainly destroy or at least alter these effects. I for one find the alteration of more and less pure intervals, when for instance a 6th comma meantone temperament is employed, highly exciting. Cheers, Lex van Sante -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009, Sean Smith said: > Singers aren't so forced or so, ahem, 'nerdy' and often won't know what > meantone we use. it varies, many of us dont have a clue as to much of much theory; but we all have ears, and some of us use them, both in play and with voice. Singers in small ensembles will adjust individual notes to make good harmony, sometimes this drfits the tuning of the whole ensemble. When dissonance is a feature of the music it helps if someone in the group has a strong internal memory of pitch, but that is not always obtained. > From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly > choose a specific meantone scale? amateur chorist more than pro, but a bit of both. Directors vary, and the quality of their chorists also vary, mosts directors try to get 'the most' out of the forces they command, but with a dose of reality as to expectation. As a player I have been asked to tune specific notes (both wind and lute), and I have seen viols etc similarly treated, I have also played in small ensembles sans directoire who had members who were sensitive and saw to it that we made the attempt. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Sean Smith wrote: > > From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly > choose a specific meantone scale? Do you ever get instructions to (not) > temper your frets? I'm a pro and get hired as such: gun for hire. Sometimes that means I have to shut up and do as I'm told. Sometimes that means I am aksed to be involved, advise, give feed back. On some of my contracts it says Sorge, 1/4 comma mean tone, 1/6 comma mean tone, Valotti, Werckmeister III, Jägermeister IV or equal temperament (if it's ET, they usually don't specify as apparently they're not quite HIP-minded or plain ignorant). Sometimes the conductor calls me beforehand to ask what might be a good idea for the music or what is possible for me. (I even get called by conductors that ask me why their lute player - not me - is refusing to set his frets in MT, it _is_ possible after all, isn't it?) Sometimes the organ/cembalo player and I call each other before hand to decide what to propose to the conductor in case we are fearing to be stuck in ET or somthing Equally Impossible. With some orchestras some temperaments are more or less standard (Florilegium (if their usual organ player plays) = Sorge, Swaen = 1/6 comma mean tone), with some organ/cembalo player I know what to expect (Pieter is Werckmeister-Pieter, blast!, Vincent = close-to-Sorge-but-tuned-by-ear-so-don't-set-your-tuner-on-it, Siebe = 'Bach' temperament), with some music some temperaments are more or less expected (Monteverdi = 1/4 comma mean tone).That's just my experience, FWIW or whatever abbreviating is called for to make this a non-absolute truth. David - happily played ET in many transposed (Dowland and other) songs today -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
Thank you, Dana and David. I figured your experiences would be all over the map and dictated by the conductors' whims but was also interested in the politics of the decision. Interesting also to see that a 1/4 meantone is ocassionally used. I would hope so whenever natural horns have a large presence, btw. ...fwiw. Dana, I had wondered about drift especially when some of the choristers are more aware of the meantone workings than others. As a piece modulates to, say, the II or iii, it is probably very difficult to keep the original scale intact. Sean On Feb 15, 2009, at 2:18 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Sean Smith wrote: From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly choose a specific meantone scale? Do you ever get instructions to (not) temper your frets? I'm a pro and get hired as such: gun for hire. Sometimes that means I have to shut up and do as I'm told. Sometimes that means I am aksed to be involved, advise, give feed back. On some of my contracts it says Sorge, 1/4 comma mean tone, 1/6 comma mean tone, Valotti, Werckmeister III, Jägermeister IV or equal temperament (if it's ET, they usually don't specify as apparently they're not quite HIP-minded or plain ignorant). Sometimes the conductor calls me beforehand to ask what might be a good idea for the music or what is possible for me. (I even get called by conductors that ask me why their lute player - not me - is refusing to set his frets in MT, it _is_ possible after all, isn't it?) Sometimes the organ/cembalo player and I call each other before hand to decide what to propose to the conductor in case we are fearing to be stuck in ET or somthing Equally Impossible. With some orchestras some temperaments are more or less standard (Florilegium (if their usual organ player plays) = Sorge, Swaen = 1/6 comma mean tone), with some organ/cembalo player I know what to expect (Pieter is Werckmeister-Pieter, blast!, Vincent = close-to-Sorge-but-tuned-by-ear-so-don't-set-your-tuner-on-it, Siebe = 'Bach' temperament), with some music some temperaments are more or less expected (Monteverdi = 1/4 comma mean tone).That's just my experience, FWIW or whatever abbreviating is called for to make this a non-absolute truth. David - happily played ET in many transposed (Dowland and other) songs today -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
We use meantone in our ensemble for the singers and instrumentalists, for 17th century music, and I have a series of exercises to quickly get everyone locked in. Concerto Palatino plays exclusively in meantone with singers and instrumentalists--they are the best I have heard at it. Loekie Stardust used a moving tone center, close to "just" in way--they would often end up lower at the end of the piece than they started by using alternate fingerings. Amateur choral groups don't usually specify a tuning, but sometimes they do, depends on the conductor, I can't remember seeing a split key organ with choral groups--it must exist, though-- but I see it with some professional groups. If you are working in meantone, some of the notes will be out of tune from time to time because the string players are playing other gigs in Valotti or whatever. Whatever! dt At 01:55 PM 2/15/2009, you wrote: >On Sun, Feb 15, 2009, Sean Smith said: > > > > Singers aren't so forced or so, ahem, 'nerdy' and often won't know what > > meantone we use. > >it varies, many of us dont have a clue as to much of much theory; but we >all have ears, and some of us use them, both in play and with voice. > >Singers in small ensembles will adjust individual notes to make good >harmony, sometimes this drfits the tuning of the whole ensemble. When >dissonance is a feature of the music it helps if someone in the group has >a strong internal memory of pitch, but that is not always obtained. > > > From your professional experiences, do choral directers ever explicitly > > choose a specific meantone scale? > >amateur chorist more than pro, but a bit of both. Directors vary, and the >quality of their chorists also vary, mosts directors try to get 'the most' >out of the forces they command, but with a dose of reality as to >expectation. > >As a player I have been asked to tune specific notes (both wind and lute), >and I have seen viols etc similarly treated, I have also played in small >ensembles sans directoire who had members who were sensitive and saw to it >that we made the attempt. > >-- >Dana Emery > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs??
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009, Sean Smith said: > Dana, I had wondered about drift drift is more an issue of who chooses to adjust when; and to what challenge. I recall one easter piece, maybe by aligheri? The opening staggers entrances from each of, mmm, maybe seven parts, at intervals of a seventh; very challenging. I am also minded of something my first choirmaster said to me, he was always afraid of lengthy accapella passages where the organ rejoined the choir, he was skilled enough to play transposed by as much as a third should the choir have drifted that much, usually we werent that errant. -- > Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
The sizes (and therefore pitches) of lutes around 1600 is still a matter of debate. VERY briefly: Wirth ( 2005) and Nurse (1986) looked at surviving Venetian and Paduan lutes and on this evidence proposed an average string length of around 66/67cm for a G lute which would suggest a pitch around a whole tone below modern A440. Of course we have no means of knowing how representative a sample of early period lutes this study represents. Indeed, Praetorius, who is usually pretty accurate, gives the string length of a common G lute at 61/62cm. Other evidence (eg the sizes of liuto attiorbato a tone apart sizes -64cm and 57cm in nominal G [or F depending on the local pitch centre] and A [or G]) also does not support this view. There is also the question of the physical demands required by the tablature (eg 'barre' at the 1st fret with first course stopped at the 5th fret, etc) which is more subjective but cannot be overlooked. Finally, and even more problematical is a proper study extant iconographic representations (ie not just a couple of isolated examples) - work still to be done I'm afraid. For what it's worth, I currently think the size of the most common G lute in this period was around 63/64cm which suggests a pitch about a semi-tone below A440 so your idea of tuning down to A415 would be, on this hypothesis, quite reasonable. Clearly all this is subject to considerations of local pitch standards and national preferences... MH --- On Fri, 13/2/09, Caroline Usher wrote: From: Caroline Usher Subject: [LUTE] Transposed Dowland songs?? To: "lutenet" Date: Friday, 13 February, 2009, 2:57 PM A singer has asked me to accompany her on "Come heavy sleep" and "Time stands still." The problem is, she wants to sing them in F (down a whole step) because it's a better range for her voice. Has anyone tried transposing them down? Any thoughts on how well (or not) this works? I could tune down to 415 but I'm not sure she'll go for that. thanks, Caroline -- * Caroline Usher, Dept. of Biology Box 90338 Durham NC 27708 919-613-8155, fax 660-7293 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
Clearly all this is subject to considerations of local pitch standards and national preferences... There you go. Proclaim A to be 392 (or 377) for the south eastern seaboard of the US and treat yourself to the nice new larger lute you so royally deserve. The Pavins sound lovely down a bit. Alternately you can put a few thicker strings on your current ax and get a new sound out of it. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
If you tune some of the notes to 415 and some to 370 and some to 465 you can get baroque tuning. dt At 02:33 AM 2/14/2009, you wrote: >>Clearly all this is subject to considerations of local pitch standards >>and national preferences... >There you go. Proclaim A to be 392 (or 377) for the south eastern >seaboard of the US and treat yourself to the nice new larger lute >you so royally deserve. The Pavins sound lovely down a bit. > >Alternately you can put a few thicker strings on your current ax and >get a new sound out of it. > >Sean > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 11:44 AM, David Tayler wrote: > If you tune some of the notes to 415 and some to 370 and some to 465 > you can get baroque tuning. ROTFLOL! Actually, this is what I do on my bass lute. No change of strings needed, who cares about well-balanced string tension anyway? ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
Oh dear! - I took it as read that the reference to local pitch and
national preferences did not require the pedantic adjective 'historic'
as in "historic local pitch.".
MH
--- On Sat, 14/2/09, Sean Smith wrote:
From: Sean Smith
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute
sizes around 1600
To: "Lute Net"
Date: Saturday, 14 February, 2009, 10:33 AM
>
>
>Clearly all this is subject to considerations of local pitch standards
>and national preferences...
>
There you go. Proclaim A to be 392 (or 377) for the south eastern seaboard of
the US and treat yourself to the nice new larger lute you so royally deserve.
The Pavins sound lovely down a bit.
Alternately you can put a few thicker strings on your current ax and get a new
sound out of it.
Sean
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--
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
[somenotes a=415, others...] actually, mixed tuning is not such an odd idea - harpists sometimes tune part of the harp with accidentals the rest normal and switch octaves to change keys. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
History marches ever onward, Martyn. While I don't expect her to start a movement to change local standard pitch I see no reason not set G or A at whatever necessary to ensure the success of her concert. Loosening the tyranny of a standard pitch is well within our rights of historical practice. If I wrongly used your message as a springboard to state this then please accept my apologies for any ruffling of a plectrum feather. Sean On Feb 14, 2009, at 4:23 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Oh dear! - I took it as read that the reference to local pitch and national preferences did not require the pedantic adjective 'historic' as in "historic local pitch.". MH --- On Sat, 14/2/09, Sean Smith wrote: From: Sean Smith Subject: [LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600 To: "Lute Net" Date: Saturday, 14 February, 2009, 10:33 AM Clearly all this is subject to considerations of local pitch standards and national preferences... There you go. Proclaim A to be 392 (or 377) for the south eastern seaboard of the US and treat yourself to the nice new larger lute you so royally deserve. The Pavins sound lovely down a bit. Alternately you can put a few thicker strings on your current ax and get a new sound out of it. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
Sean Smith wrote: History marches ever onward, Martyn. While I don't expect her to start a movement to change local standard pitch I see no reason not set G or A at whatever necessary to ensure the success of her concert. Loosening the tyranny of a standard pitch is well within our rights of historical practice. If I wrongly used your message as a springboard to state this then please accept my apologies for any ruffling of a plectrum feather. Sean On Feb 14, 2009, at 4:23 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Oh dear! - I took it as read that the reference to local pitch and national preferences did not require the pedantic adjective 'historic' as in "historic local pitch.". MH --- On Sat, 14/2/09, Sean Smith wrote: From: Sean Smith Subject: [LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600 To: "Lute Net" Date: Saturday, 14 February, 2009, 10:33 AM Clearly all this is subject to considerations of local pitch standards and national preferences... There you go. Proclaim A to be 392 (or 377) for the south eastern seaboard of the US and treat yourself to the nice new larger lute you so royally deserve. The Pavins sound lovely down a bit. Alternately you can put a few thicker strings on your current ax and get a new sound out of it. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- it's just (not) cricket!!
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 5:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > Clearly all this is subject to considerations of local pitch standards > and national preferences... > Oddly, no one seems to have settled on the most obvious solution: Caroline merely needs to declare the local pitch standard to be A=494. Now, her (previously A=440) lute is in G, and she can satisfy her vocalist's request without having to change her lute at all! ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
*sigh*. Correction: At A=494, a G lute (at previous A=440) is now in F. On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 6:48 PM, William Brohinsky wrote: > On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 5:08 AM, Martyn Hodgson > wrote: >> > >> Clearly all this is subject to considerations of local pitch standards >> and national preferences... >> > > Oddly, no one seems to have settled on the most obvious solution: > > Caroline merely needs to declare the local pitch standard to be A=494. > Now, her (previously A=440) lute is in G, and she can satisfy her > vocalist's request without having to change her lute at all! > > ray > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Transposed Dowland songs - ruminations on lute sizes around 1600
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009, William Brohinsky said: > Caroline merely needs to declare the local pitch standard to be A=494. > Now, her (previously A=440) lute is in G, and she can satisfy her > vocalist's request without having to change her lute at all! ?!? no change to the lute means no change for the singer, me thinks you been hanging out with the rastafarans. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
