[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
On Feb 16, 2007, at 10:43 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: > Craig > Of course walnut oil comes form walnuts. The local village where my > wife comes from presses, walnuts for the oil. Olive oil comes from > olives, doesn't prevent the olive wood from being oily. It is not the > sound of the gun that was being referred to (I believ) but a certain > cushioning of the recoil, and the non-fracturing of the stock. The > message does not actually mention oilyness, but the association with > teak, and the fact that olive wood is so oily (and its fruits produce > oil) made me think perhaps this was also the case of walnut. > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ > browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=st&q=stained > +woods+to+replace++ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562990314731bb57 > > Guitar woods Groupe : rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic > Groupes de discussion : rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic > De : MICHAEL BOISSEVAIN > Objet : Re: Guitar woods (esp Walnut) > > I have a serious question here about walnut. I have been > seriously leaning toward walnut as a tonewood for a guitar > which I hope to order in the next few months. I just liked > the *idea* of walnut, i.e. its origin, its appearance, etc. > Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked > for a large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or > locations here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.) He said that > this company had a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number > of sizes, and that they had mostly all been "duds". He felt that > walnut was an excellent sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather > than a sound reflecter, and provided the example of rifle stocks, > where walnut is the most common wood, ostensibly because of its > ability to absorb vibration. For this reason, he does not offer > walnut as a choice in his guitars. > > It would be great to hear some comments on this from experienced > luthiers. I still like the idea of walnut, but I would > hate to order the guitar of a lifetime, and end up with a "dud". > > - Afficher le texte des messages precedents - > > The replies contradicted CB's assertions, as you have. I was just > reporting > both points of view. > Regards > Anthony > > > Le 16 fevr. 07 =E0 07:29, Craig Robert Pierpont a ecrit : > >> Anthony, >>People say all kinds of stuff. The similarity between walnut and >> teak is that they both come from trees. (Walnut oil comes from >> walnuts.) As far as gunstocks are concerned, did you ever hear a >> quiet gun? So it follows that walnut must make a loud instrument. >> >> Craig >> >> Craig R. Pierpont >> Another Era Lutherie >> www.anotherera.com >> >> Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Rob >> I love the look and feel of walnut. So if it works that could be >> excellent. However, there was some difference of opinion on the >> guitar construction site, as to whether walnut sounded well or not. >> Some claimed they had made, or heard, excellent walnut guitars, >> others suggested that if walnut was chosen for rifle buts, it is >> because it kills resonance and absorbs shocks. They seemed to claim >> this was because it is an oily wood, as they associated it with teak, >> which they also claimed resonates poorly. >> I assume, if this is true, the same would be true of olive wood. If >> the oil is the reason, perhaps there might be ways of removing it, >> and some walnut-types might be less oily; >> so I imagine that the type of walnut, and what part of the tree is >> used would also be very significant. Certainly, the only way to be >> sure is to experiment. >> Regards >> Anthony >> >> >> Le 15 fevr. 07 =E0 16:27, Rob Dorsey a ecrit : >> >>> Anthony, >>> >>> No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My >>> point >>> is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what >>> difference does >>> it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here and available >>> now, where >>> we live, and could make nice instruments of perhaps lower cost >>> whilst losing >>> nothing in acoustics or appearance. In fact it might be nicer than >>> some >>> historically correct woods. >>> >>> One builder's opinion. I could be wrong. >>> >>> Rob Dorsey >>> http://RobDorsey.com >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Sent: Thursday,
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Hi Alexander and All interested, Well, I restore and rebuild fine shotguns and rifles in addition to making instruments. I'm a lifelong hunter, shooter and gun owner (Lifetime NRA Member) and have done my own gunsmithing for quite a while. The parallels of fine gunsmithing to instrument building are manifold in that attention to detail, a procedural attitude and a desire for perfection in one's craftsmanship may be extended to either discipline. I've carved a number of stocks for both rifles and shotguns, the latter being the most difficult. An earlier poster got it right in saying that we look for a lovely and chaotic figure in the "butt" region of the stock but need a straighter grain in the "wrist" of the grip. Walnut is a traditional wood only because it is stable (accuracy in a rifle depends on this), water resistant (accentuated by an oil finish), and strong. However, laminated wood, other woods like maple and glass-fiber composites all work just as well. Most purists (something that should invoke at least some empathy from this crowd) prefer walnut, the American Walnut or Claro being the favorite although Circassian from Turkey is also becoming quite prevalent. Just another view, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Alexander Batov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:34 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc - Original Message - From: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc > I just got an answer from a well-known Austrian gun manufacturer. > In fact the walnut was used because of its dampening characteristics - > in old times, when the shaft did enclose the barrel and had to transport > backstroke energy to the shoulder... While in no way trying to undermine the expertise of the gun manufacturer, I find it difficult to grasp the idea that the "dampening characteristics" of walnut (bearing in mind that the backstroke energy is transmitted to the shoulder along, not across, the grain of the wood) are really at play here. Common sense suggests that the mass of the gunstock would certainly be more important in lessening the back stroke momentum of energy after the gun is fired (i.e. the heavier the gunstock the better)! ... Unless, of course, the gun manufacturer can present some damping rate figures demonstrating walnut's superiority against other common varieties of woods ... > Modern weapons are contructed differently. For precison guns only > aluminium, carbon fibre etc. are used to achieve supreme stiffness. > Walnut is still used as a "tradition" in hunting weapons. I think "tradition" is the key to this issue ;) --- Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
- Original Message - From: "Bernd Haegemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc > I just got an answer from a well-known Austrian gun manufacturer. > In fact the walnut was used because of its dampening characteristics - > in old times, when the shaft did enclose the barrel and had to transport > backstroke energy to the shoulder... While in no way trying to undermine the expertise of the gun manufacturer, I find it difficult to grasp the idea that the "dampening characteristics" of walnut (bearing in mind that the backstroke energy is transmitted to the shoulder along, not across, the grain of the wood) are really at play here. Common sense suggests that the mass of the gunstock would certainly be more important in lessening the back stroke momentum of energy after the gun is fired (i.e. the heavier the gunstock the better)! ... Unless, of course, the gun manufacturer can present some damping rate figures demonstrating walnut's superiority against other common varieties of woods ... > Modern weapons are contructed differently. For precison guns only > aluminium, carbon fibre etc. are used to achieve supreme stiffness. > Walnut is still used as a "tradition" in hunting weapons. I think "tradition" is the key to this issue ;) --- Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
I hadn't heard dead tone attributed to oil content of tone wood. Oak, e.g., one of the very deadest tonewoods I've ever come across in ca. 1900 guitars, I don't think of as particularly oily. Rosewoods, which are considered some of the best, can be quite oily. I think it's more a function of plasticity because of cell/fiber structure...but I'm not a dendrologist. I also haven't heard walnut use maligned too badly in guitars, but even if it is, bowled instruments, like lutes, behave very very differently from instruments with flat backs. Wood selection for a lute's bowl is likely to have less impact on a lute's tone than for a guitar's back plate on its tone. Flat instruments have coupled resonance patterns between soundboard and back that don't occur in bowled instruments. Unfortunately, the only holographic resonance study I'm aware of having been conducted on bowled instrument acoustics was by Drs. Cohen and Rossing on Neapolitan mandolins. I don't believe it was ever printed, but was presented in conferences, perhaps to the Catgut Acoustical Society (if you find the authors published on mandolins, I believe it will only be regarding mandolins with violin-like carved-arch soundboards and back plates). In Neapolitan mandolins, they found the bowl's function was mostly to define the resonating air mass, and the bowl wasn't actively vibrating itself outside very high pitch frequencies. I don't know if anybody has given similar effort to lute bowls. Best, Eugene At 02:57 PM 2/15/2007, Anthony Hind wrote: >Rob > I love the look and feel of walnut. So if it works that could be >excellent. However, there was some difference of opinion on the >guitar construction site, as to whether walnut sounded well or not. >Some claimed they had made, or heard, excellent walnut guitars, >others suggested that if walnut was chosen for rifle buts, it is >because it kills resonance and absorbs shocks. They seemed to claim >this was because it is an oily wood, as they associated it with teak, >which they also claimed resonates poorly. >I assume, if this is true, the same would be true of olive wood. If >the oil is the reason, perhaps there might be ways of removing it, >and some walnut-types might be less oily; > so I imagine that the type of walnut, and what part of the tree is >used would also be very significant. Certainly, the only way to be >sure is to experiment. >Regards >Anthony > > >Le 15 févr. 07 à 16:27, Rob Dorsey a écrit : > > > Anthony, > > > > No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My > > point > > is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what > > difference does > > it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here and available > > now, where > > we live, and could make nice instruments of perhaps lower cost > > whilst losing > > nothing in acoustics or appearance. In fact it might be nicer than > > some > > historically correct woods. > > > > One builder's opinion. I could be wrong. > > > > Rob Dorsey > > http://RobDorsey.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 AM > > To: Rob Dorsey; Martin Shepherd > > Cc: Lute Net > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc > > > > Rob et al > > Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if > > there > > aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did exist, > > with none > > having survived. > > Regards > > Anthony > > Le 15 févr. 07 à 15:00, Rob Dorsey a écrit : > > > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes > >> as a > >> body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the > >> birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hue. I imagine a walnut > >> body with holly spacers under a fairly clear varnish as being lovely. > >> There are so many variations of walnut in color and figure so as to > >> provide a pallet of choices from which the client and builder might > >> choose. If time allowed I'd make one on spec for proof of concept. > >> Perhaps before LSA next year. > >> > >> Best, > >> Rob Dorsey > >> http://RobDorsey.com > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM > >> To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net > >> Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc > >> > >> Martin > >
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Walnuts are not uncommon to the bowls of Neapolitan mandolins. Eugene At 09:00 AM 2/15/2007, Rob Dorsey wrote: >Hi All, > >I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes as a body >wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the birdseye, and has a >beautiful nominally dark hue. I imagine a walnut body with holly spacers >under a fairly clear varnish as being lovely. There are so many variations >of walnut in color and figure so as to provide a pallet of choices from >which the client and builder might choose. If time allowed I'd make one on >spec for proof of concept. Perhaps before LSA next year. > >Best, >Rob Dorsey >http://RobDorsey.com > >-Original Message- >From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM >To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net >Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc > >Martin > > As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where >guitar makers are raising the same questions as you are. They appear to be >looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood. > >I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these. > >However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock wood to >replace ebony. I think it is a form of walnut : Highly Figured Claro Walnut >~ Gun Stock Wood > >http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com/products/products.htm > >Here are a few quotes about walnut, followed by remarks on persimmon ( a >local American ebony-type) : > >Best > >Anthony > >http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html > >The fingerboard, tail, endpeg, and bridge all are carved from black walnut >wood to contrast with the body - cheaper for the model than the ebony I >would have otherwise used, and definitely easier to find. >The body was stained with a wood oil, both for color and sealing the wood, >but no varnish was applied. > >However, there is a problem with walnut according to the following : > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ >browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=st&q=stained >+woods+to+replace+ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562990314731bb57 > >Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked >for a large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or >locations here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.)He said that >this company had a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number >of sizes, and that they had mostly all been "duds". He felt that >walnut was an excellent sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather >than a sound reflecter, and provided the example of rifle stocks, >where walnut is the most common wood, ostensibly because of its >ability to absorb vibration. For this reason, he does not offer >walnut as a choice in his guitars. > > > >Reply > >I have a guitar that is made completely of Walnut. Walnut back and >sides, >walnut top, walnut neck, and even walnut tuning knobs. Believe me, it >is not >a dud. The walnut top is clear, distinct, cannot be overdriven, highs >and >lows are very seperate, each with great fundementals. The overtones are >certainly not as dominant as one would find on redwood or englemen, >but they >are there. > > >The hard one to replace will be ebony. The 'local' variety, >persimmon, is >most usually white, although you can find logs with some dark grey >streaking. Look at Henry's myrtle/spruce classical in the 'Student >Gallery' on my web site to > see a nice piece of persimmon used as a fingerboard. The white >stuff is >nice and hard, we just have to figure out how to stain it. > >Have you tried Black saddle dye in coats? I am not a luthier but I >bought >a bum-around guitar-a Martin DM and stained the Indian rosewood >fingerboard and bridge with this dye and it looks like ebony from a few >feet away-of course, white wood may not take the dye. > >Alan Carruth / Luthier >http://www.alcarruthluthier.com > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar/browse_thread/thread/ >39d81be8892a6b79/3444368f9a812342?lnk=st&q=stained+woods+to+replace >+ebony&rnum=5&hl=fr#3444368f9a812342 > >You can use ebanol from http://www.stewmac.com >it makes rosewood look like ebony. >it probably wasn't a mahogany fingerboard, most likely rosewood, or >one of >the cheaper woods typically used. >ebanol will stay on, stain wont stay on. > > >Patrick K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message > > >http://www.bartruff.com/services.php > >Currently good stocks of ebony come from India which has a non- >threatened status for its species of Diospyros. But obviously, if >every instrument maker rushes out to buy the Indian stock, there will >be a problem. > >So, I use a little trick. Ordinary US grown persimmon certified by >the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) as sustainably grown can be >stained to look as black as Indian ebony, and it is equally as fine >and hard. Same Family, same Genus, different species. It even sinks >in water like "ebony" because it is ebony. It makes no difference to >the sound, performance or integrity of the violin and the be
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Anthony, My appologies, perhaps I was being a little clever there. My experience is only with American Black Walnut. European Walnut is not as strong and could work out differently. So, referring to American Black Walnut: Walnut wood is not oily. Walnut wood has been used to make many fine instruments. Waunut is used for gunstocks because it is strong and looks good. The best figured walnut gunstocks are made from a section of wood at the base of the tree taken from both the above and below the ground portions of the stump, allowing heavy figure on the buttstock and straighter grain in the forestock area. For purposes of instrument building, one has to take into account that walnut has an open grain which, in very thin pieces (such as lute ribs) will make it prone to lengthwise fractures. It heat bends very nicely. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie www.anotherera.com Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Craig Of course walnut oil comes form walnuts. The local village where my wife comes from presses, walnuts for the oil. Olive oil comes from olives, doesn't prevent the olive wood from being oily. It is not the sound of the gun that was being referred to (I believ) but a certain cushioning of the recoil, and the non-fracturing of the stock. The message does not actually mention oilyness, but the association with teak, and the fact that olive wood is so oily (and its fruits produce oil) made me think perhaps this was also the case of walnut. - Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Dear All, I have used two kinds of walnut (European and American black) for lute backs. It works as well as anything acoustically, so there's no reason not to use it. The density may be comparable to sycamore, but it is nowhere near as dense as birdseye maple. It is rather porous, but takes varnish well and is not (as far as I can see) oily. Both species have a tendency to be a cold brown, tending toward grey, but can be very attractive. One interesting feature I noticed - when ribs are bent with heat they tend to stay bent, unlike most timbers which usually have some tendency to unbend a little. My most recent walnut lute was a 6c with holly spacers and a holly veneered neck - unfortunately the photos are on a disk I can't access at the moment but I will post them a.s.a.p. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Craig Of course walnut oil comes form walnuts. The local village where my wife comes from presses, walnuts for the oil. Olive oil comes from olives, doesn't prevent the olive wood from being oily. It is not the sound of the gun that was being referred to (I believ) but a certain cushioning of the recoil, and the non-fracturing of the stock. The message does not actually mention oilyness, but the association with teak, and the fact that olive wood is so oily (and its fruits produce oil) made me think perhaps this was also the case of walnut. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=st&q=stained +woods+to+replace++ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562990314731bb57 Guitar woods Groupe : rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic Groupes de discussion : rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic De : MICHAEL BOISSEVAIN Objet : Re: Guitar woods (esp Walnut) I have a serious question here about walnut. I have been seriously leaning toward walnut as a tonewood for a guitar which I hope to order in the next few months. I just liked the *idea* of walnut, i.e. its origin, its appearance, etc. Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked for a large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or locations here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.) He said that this company had a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number of sizes, and that they had mostly all been "duds". He felt that walnut was an excellent sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather than a sound reflecter, and provided the example of rifle stocks, where walnut is the most common wood, ostensibly because of its ability to absorb vibration. For this reason, he does not offer walnut as a choice in his guitars. It would be great to hear some comments on this from experienced luthiers. I still like the idea of walnut, but I would hate to order the guitar of a lifetime, and end up with a "dud". - Afficher le texte des messages precedents - The replies contradicted CB's assertions, as you have. I was just reporting both points of view. Regards Anthony Le 16 fevr. 07 =E0 07:29, Craig Robert Pierpont a ecrit : > Anthony, >People say all kinds of stuff. The similarity between walnut and > teak is that they both come from trees. (Walnut oil comes from > walnuts.) As far as gunstocks are concerned, did you ever hear a > quiet gun? So it follows that walnut must make a loud instrument. > > Craig > > Craig R. Pierpont > Another Era Lutherie > www.anotherera.com > > Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rob > I love the look and feel of walnut. So if it works that could be > excellent. However, there was some difference of opinion on the > guitar construction site, as to whether walnut sounded well or not. > Some claimed they had made, or heard, excellent walnut guitars, > others suggested that if walnut was chosen for rifle buts, it is > because it kills resonance and absorbs shocks. They seemed to claim > this was because it is an oily wood, as they associated it with teak, > which they also claimed resonates poorly. > I assume, if this is true, the same would be true of olive wood. If > the oil is the reason, perhaps there might be ways of removing it, > and some walnut-types might be less oily; > so I imagine that the type of walnut, and what part of the tree is > used would also be very significant. Certainly, the only way to be > sure is to experiment. > Regards > Anthony > > > Le 15 fevr. 07 =E0 16:27, Rob Dorsey a ecrit : > > > Anthony, > > > > No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My > > point > > is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what > > difference does > > it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here and available > > now, where > > we live, and could make nice instruments of perhaps lower cost > > whilst losing > > nothing in acoustics or appearance. In fact it might be nicer than > > some > > historically correct woods. > > > > One builder's opinion. I could be wrong. > > > > Rob Dorsey > > http://RobDorsey.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 AM > > To: Rob Dorsey; Martin Shepherd > > Cc: Lute Net > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc > > > > Rob et al > > Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if > > there > > aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did exist, > > with none > > having survived. > > Regards > > Anthony > > Le 15 fevr. 07 =E0 15:00, Rob Do
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Rob There are some very beautiful lacquered papier m=E2che Chinese boxes; so perhaps for a very elegant student-lute, papier m=E2che would be just the thing. Except that the lacquering would probably take more work and be more expensive than wood! However, hand crafted in China -- It seems there are viola de gambas coming out of China, apparently made with the very ancient wood of houses they are destroying in their new construction schemes. I heard one of these the other day, and it was not bad at all (better to use it than throw it away, but whether this destruction is good for the future of China, I wouldn't like to say). Regards Anthony Le 16 fevr. 07 =E0 03:43, Rob Dorsey a ecrit : > > > > Anthony, > > Well, that seems to be another one of those elegant theorems, > wrecked by ignoble fact. In the woods with which I work, none is > more "oily" than rosewood, that same much prized by "flat box" > makers. I also, based on my own empirical evidence, can find little > relationship between the type of wood employed in the body of > lutes. The soundboard, the bracing and shape of the air cavity so > overwhelm the rib material in affecting the sound that my poor ear > cannot distinguish between a body made of finest ebony and one of > papier-m=E2che. Yes, we once made a shell of m=E2che to see if it would > make a difference. None was detectable once one got past the > ugliness of the thing. We took a lute mold, attached a normal nose > block and laid strips of "kraft paper" on with shellac as a binder. > It was actually quite light and strong but looked like a paper > sack. Sounded pretty good too. Go figure. > > Best, > Rob Dorsey > http://RobDorsey.com > > > -Original Message- > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:57 PM > To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc > > Rob > I love the look and feel of walnut. So if it works that > could be excellent. However, there was some difference of opinion > on the guitar construction site, as to whether walnut sounded well > or not. > Some claimed they had made, or heard, excellent walnut guitars, > others suggested that if walnut was chosen for rifle buts, it is > because it kills resonance and absorbs shocks. They seemed to claim > this was because it is an oily wood, as they associated it with > teak, which they also claimed resonates poorly. > I assume, if this is true, the same would be true of olive wood. If > the oil is the reason, perhaps there might be ways of removing it, > and some walnut-types might be less oily; > so I imagine that the type of walnut, and what part of the tree > is used would also be very significant. Certainly, the only way to > be sure is to experiment. > Regards > Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Anthony and Rob, Martin recently made a 6c for me with a walnut body and I can say that it sounds very well (it's beautiful too). I can feel the bowl vibrating against my stomach when I play, much more than other lutes I have and had, so I wouldn't say it absorbs resonance, but perhaps it participates more than other woods to the final sound. Walnut is very elastic and bends very well even if it's quite a hard wood. Perhaps it's used for guns more for its tenacity and elasticity, which can absorb blows without cracking, than for killing resonance which surely is not a problem for that use. For the same reasons for example, elasticity and easy bending, it is used in static naval modeling to build the hulls. Of course, to follow a pseudo scientific method one should build two identical instruments with different body woods to compare the sound, if it was just possible to build two really identical lutes. I have only this 6c and my impression cannot be more precise. Surely it doesn't seem to me the acoustic signature of the walnut body was a problem for my instrument. Francesco > Rob > I love the look and feel of walnut. So if it works that > could be excellent. However, there was some difference of > opinion on the guitar construction site, as to whether walnut > sounded well or not. > Some claimed they had made, or heard, excellent walnut > guitars, others suggested that if walnut was chosen for rifle > buts, it is because it kills resonance and absorbs shocks. > They seemed to claim this was because it is an oily wood, as > they associated it with teak, which they also claimed > resonates poorly. > I assume, if this is true, the same would be true of olive > wood. If the oil is the reason, perhaps there might be ways > of removing it, and some walnut-types might be less oily; > so I imagine that the type of walnut, and what part of the > tree is used would also be very significant. Certainly, the > only way to be sure is to experiment. > Regards > Anthony > > > Le 15 févr. 07 à 16:27, Rob Dorsey a écrit : > > > Anthony, > > > > No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My > > point is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what > > difference does it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here > > and available now, where we live, and could make nice > instruments of > > perhaps lower cost whilst losing nothing in acoustics or > appearance. > > In fact it might be nicer than some historically correct woods. > > > > One builder's opinion. I could be wrong. > > > > Rob Dorsey > > http://RobDorsey.com > > > > -----Original Message- > > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 AM > > To: Rob Dorsey; Martin Shepherd > > Cc: Lute Net > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc > > > > Rob et al > > Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if > > there aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did > > exist, with none having survived. > > Regards > > Anthony > > Le 15 févr. 07 à 15:00, Rob Dorsey a écrit : > > > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut > for lutes as > >> a body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the > >> birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hue. I > imagine a walnut > >> body with holly spacers under a fairly clear varnish as > being lovely. > >> There are so many variations of walnut in color and figure > so as to > >> provide a pallet of choices from which the client and > builder might > >> choose. If time allowed I'd make one on spec for proof of concept. > >> Perhaps before LSA next year. > >> > >> Best, > >> Rob Dorsey > >> http://RobDorsey.com > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM > >> To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net > >> Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc > >> > >> Martin > >> > >>As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where > > guitar > >> makers are raising the same questions as you are. They > appear to be > >> looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood. > >> > >> I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these. > >> > >> However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock > >> wood to replace ebony. I think it is a form of
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Rob I love the look and feel of walnut. So if it works that could be excellent. However, there was some difference of opinion on the guitar construction site, as to whether walnut sounded well or not. Some claimed they had made, or heard, excellent walnut guitars, others suggested that if walnut was chosen for rifle buts, it is because it kills resonance and absorbs shocks. They seemed to claim this was because it is an oily wood, as they associated it with teak, which they also claimed resonates poorly. I assume, if this is true, the same would be true of olive wood. If the oil is the reason, perhaps there might be ways of removing it, and some walnut-types might be less oily; so I imagine that the type of walnut, and what part of the tree is used would also be very significant. Certainly, the only way to be sure is to experiment. Regards Anthony Le 15 févr. 07 à 16:27, Rob Dorsey a écrit : > Anthony, > > No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My > point > is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what > difference does > it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here and available > now, where > we live, and could make nice instruments of perhaps lower cost > whilst losing > nothing in acoustics or appearance. In fact it might be nicer than > some > historically correct woods. > > One builder's opinion. I could be wrong. > > Rob Dorsey > http://RobDorsey.com > > -Original Message- > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 AM > To: Rob Dorsey; Martin Shepherd > Cc: Lute Net > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc > > Rob et al > Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if > there > aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did exist, > with none > having survived. > Regards > Anthony > Le 15 févr. 07 à 15:00, Rob Dorsey a écrit : > >> Hi All, >> >> I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes >> as a >> body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the >> birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hue. I imagine a walnut >> body with holly spacers under a fairly clear varnish as being lovely. >> There are so many variations of walnut in color and figure so as to >> provide a pallet of choices from which the client and builder might >> choose. If time allowed I'd make one on spec for proof of concept. >> Perhaps before LSA next year. >> >> Best, >> Rob Dorsey >> http://RobDorsey.com >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM >> To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net >> Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc >> >> Martin >> >> As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where > guitar >> makers are raising the same questions as you are. They appear to be >> looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood. >> >> I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these. >> >> However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock >> wood >> to replace ebony. I think it is a form of walnut : Highly Figured >> Claro Walnut ~ Gun Stock Wood >> >> http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com/products/products.htm >> >> Here are a few quotes about walnut, followed by remarks on >> persimmon ( >> a local American ebony-type) : >> >> Best >> >> Anthony >> >> http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html >> >> The fingerboard, tail, endpeg, and bridge all are carved from black >> walnut wood to contrast with the body - cheaper for the model than >> the >> ebony I would have otherwise used, and definitely easier to find. >> The body was stained with a wood oil, both for color and sealing the >> wood, but no varnish was applied. >> >> However, there is a problem with walnut according to the following : >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ >> browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57? >> lnk=st&q=stained >> +woods+to+replace+ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562990314731bb57 >> >> Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked for a >> large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or locations >> here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.)He said that this company >> had >> a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number of sizes, and that >> they had mostly all been "duds". He felt that walnut was an >>
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
It was used for vihuelas, though. Nasarre mentions its qualities, if I remember correctly. A > Anthony, > > No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My point > is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what difference does > it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here and available now, > where > we live, and could make nice instruments of perhaps lower cost whilst > losing > nothing in acoustics or appearance. In fact it might be nicer than some > historically correct woods. > > One builder's opinion. I could be wrong. > > Rob Dorsey > http://RobDorsey.com > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Anthony, No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My point is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what difference does it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here and available now, where we live, and could make nice instruments of perhaps lower cost whilst losing nothing in acoustics or appearance. In fact it might be nicer than some historically correct woods. One builder's opinion. I could be wrong. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Martin Shepherd Cc: Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc Rob et al Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if there aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did exist, with none having survived. Regards Anthony Le 15 févr. 07 à 15:00, Rob Dorsey a écrit : > Hi All, > > I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes as a > body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the > birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hue. I imagine a walnut > body with holly spacers under a fairly clear varnish as being lovely. > There are so many variations of walnut in color and figure so as to > provide a pallet of choices from which the client and builder might > choose. If time allowed I'd make one on spec for proof of concept. > Perhaps before LSA next year. > > Best, > Rob Dorsey > http://RobDorsey.com > > -Original Message- > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM > To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net > Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc > > Martin > > As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where guitar > makers are raising the same questions as you are. They appear to be > looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood. > > I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these. > > However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock wood > to replace ebony. I think it is a form of walnut : Highly Figured > Claro Walnut ~ Gun Stock Wood > > http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com/products/products.htm > > Here are a few quotes about walnut, followed by remarks on persimmon ( > a local American ebony-type) : > > Best > > Anthony > > http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html > > The fingerboard, tail, endpeg, and bridge all are carved from black > walnut wood to contrast with the body - cheaper for the model than the > ebony I would have otherwise used, and definitely easier to find. > The body was stained with a wood oil, both for color and sealing the > wood, but no varnish was applied. > > However, there is a problem with walnut according to the following : > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ > browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=st&q=stained > +woods+to+replace+ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562990314731bb57 > > Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked for a > large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or locations > here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.)He said that this company had > a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number of sizes, and that > they had mostly all been "duds". He felt that walnut was an excellent > sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather than a sound reflecter, and > provided the example of rifle stocks, where walnut is the most common > wood, ostensibly because of its ability to absorb vibration. For this > reason, he does not offer walnut as a choice in his guitars. > > > > Reply > > I have a guitar that is made completely of Walnut. Walnut back and > sides, walnut top, walnut neck, and even walnut tuning knobs. Believe > me, it is not a dud. The walnut top is clear, distinct, cannot be > overdriven, highs and lows are very seperate, each with great > fundementals. The overtones are certainly not as dominant as one would > find on redwood or englemen, but they are there. > > > The hard one to replace will be ebony. The 'local' variety, persimmon, > is most usually white, although you can find logs with some dark grey > streaking. Look at Henry's myrtle/spruce classical in the 'Student > Gallery' on my web site to > see a nice piece of persimmon used as a fingerboard. The white > stuff is nice and hard, we just have to figure out how to stain it. > > Have you tried Black saddle dye in coats? I am not a luthier but I > bought a bum-around guitar-a Martin DM and stained the Indian rosewood > fingerboard and bridge with this dye and it looks like ebony from a > few f
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Rob et al Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if there aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did exist, with none having survived. Regards Anthony Le 15 févr. 07 à 15:00, Rob Dorsey a écrit : > Hi All, > > I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes > as a body > wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the birdseye, > and has a > beautiful nominally dark hue. I imagine a walnut body with holly > spacers > under a fairly clear varnish as being lovely. There are so many > variations > of walnut in color and figure so as to provide a pallet of choices > from > which the client and builder might choose. If time allowed I'd make > one on > spec for proof of concept. Perhaps before LSA next year. > > Best, > Rob Dorsey > http://RobDorsey.com > > -Original Message- > From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM > To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net > Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc > > Martin > > As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where > guitar makers are raising the same questions as you are. They > appear to be > looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood. > > I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these. > > However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock > wood to > replace ebony. I think it is a form of walnut : Highly Figured > Claro Walnut > ~ Gun Stock Wood > > http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com/products/products.htm > > Here are a few quotes about walnut, followed by remarks on > persimmon ( a > local American ebony-type) : > > Best > > Anthony > > http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html > > The fingerboard, tail, endpeg, and bridge all are carved from black > walnut > wood to contrast with the body - cheaper for the model than the > ebony I > would have otherwise used, and definitely easier to find. > The body was stained with a wood oil, both for color and sealing > the wood, > but no varnish was applied. > > However, there is a problem with walnut according to the following : > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ > browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=st&q=stained > +woods+to+replace+ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562990314731bb57 > > Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked > for a large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or > locations here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.)He said that > this company had a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number > of sizes, and that they had mostly all been "duds". He felt that > walnut was an excellent sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather > than a sound reflecter, and provided the example of rifle stocks, > where walnut is the most common wood, ostensibly because of its > ability to absorb vibration. For this reason, he does not offer > walnut as a choice in his guitars. > > > > Reply > > I have a guitar that is made completely of Walnut. Walnut back and > sides, > walnut top, walnut neck, and even walnut tuning knobs. Believe me, it > is not > a dud. The walnut top is clear, distinct, cannot be overdriven, highs > and > lows are very seperate, each with great fundementals. The overtones > are > certainly not as dominant as one would find on redwood or englemen, > but they > are there. > > > The hard one to replace will be ebony. The 'local' variety, > persimmon, is > most usually white, although you can find logs with some dark grey > streaking. Look at Henry's myrtle/spruce classical in the 'Student > Gallery' on my web site to > see a nice piece of persimmon used as a fingerboard. The white > stuff is > nice and hard, we just have to figure out how to stain it. > > Have you tried Black saddle dye in coats? I am not a luthier but I > bought > a bum-around guitar-a Martin DM and stained the Indian rosewood > fingerboard and bridge with this dye and it looks like ebony from a > few > feet away-of course, white wood may not take the dye. > > Alan Carruth / Luthier > http://www.alcarruthluthier.com > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar/browse_thread/thread/ > 39d81be8892a6b79/3444368f9a812342?lnk=st&q=stained+woods+to+replace > +ebony&rnum=5&hl=fr#3444368f9a812342 > > You can use ebanol from http://www.stewmac.com > it makes rosewood look like ebony. > it probably wasn't a mahogany fingerboard, most likely rosewood, or > one of > the cheaper woods typically used. > ebanol will stay on, stain wont stay on. > > > Patrick K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message > > > http://www.bartruff.com/services.php > > Currently good stocks of ebony come from India which has a non- > threatened status for its species of Diospyros. But obviously, if > every instrument maker rushes out to buy the Indian stock, there will > be a problem. > > So, I use a little trick. Ordinary US grown persimmon certified by > the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) as sustainably grown
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Hi All, I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes as a body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hue. I imagine a walnut body with holly spacers under a fairly clear varnish as being lovely. There are so many variations of walnut in color and figure so as to provide a pallet of choices from which the client and builder might choose. If time allowed I'd make one on spec for proof of concept. Perhaps before LSA next year. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc Martin As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where guitar makers are raising the same questions as you are. They appear to be looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood. I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these. However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock wood to replace ebony. I think it is a form of walnut : Highly Figured Claro Walnut ~ Gun Stock Wood http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com/products/products.htm Here are a few quotes about walnut, followed by remarks on persimmon ( a local American ebony-type) : Best Anthony http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html The fingerboard, tail, endpeg, and bridge all are carved from black walnut wood to contrast with the body - cheaper for the model than the ebony I would have otherwise used, and definitely easier to find. The body was stained with a wood oil, both for color and sealing the wood, but no varnish was applied. However, there is a problem with walnut according to the following : http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=st&q=stained +woods+to+replace+ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562990314731bb57 Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked for a large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or locations here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.)He said that this company had a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number of sizes, and that they had mostly all been "duds". He felt that walnut was an excellent sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather than a sound reflecter, and provided the example of rifle stocks, where walnut is the most common wood, ostensibly because of its ability to absorb vibration. For this reason, he does not offer walnut as a choice in his guitars. Reply I have a guitar that is made completely of Walnut. Walnut back and sides, walnut top, walnut neck, and even walnut tuning knobs. Believe me, it is not a dud. The walnut top is clear, distinct, cannot be overdriven, highs and lows are very seperate, each with great fundementals. The overtones are certainly not as dominant as one would find on redwood or englemen, but they are there. The hard one to replace will be ebony. The 'local' variety, persimmon, is most usually white, although you can find logs with some dark grey streaking. Look at Henry's myrtle/spruce classical in the 'Student Gallery' on my web site to see a nice piece of persimmon used as a fingerboard. The white stuff is nice and hard, we just have to figure out how to stain it. Have you tried Black saddle dye in coats? I am not a luthier but I bought a bum-around guitar-a Martin DM and stained the Indian rosewood fingerboard and bridge with this dye and it looks like ebony from a few feet away-of course, white wood may not take the dye. Alan Carruth / Luthier http://www.alcarruthluthier.com http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar/browse_thread/thread/ 39d81be8892a6b79/3444368f9a812342?lnk=st&q=stained+woods+to+replace +ebony&rnum=5&hl=fr#3444368f9a812342 You can use ebanol from http://www.stewmac.com it makes rosewood look like ebony. it probably wasn't a mahogany fingerboard, most likely rosewood, or one of the cheaper woods typically used. ebanol will stay on, stain wont stay on. Patrick K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message http://www.bartruff.com/services.php Currently good stocks of ebony come from India which has a non- threatened status for its species of Diospyros. But obviously, if every instrument maker rushes out to buy the Indian stock, there will be a problem. So, I use a little trick. Ordinary US grown persimmon certified by the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) as sustainably grown can be stained to look as black as Indian ebony, and it is equally as fine and hard. Same Family, same Genus, different species. It even sinks in water like "ebony" because it is ebony. It makes no difference to the sound, performance or integrity of the violin and the beauty is just as lustrous. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=st&q=stained +woods+to+replace+ebony&rnum=2&hl=fr#562
