OT: Mozart for guitar
> I do wish Mozart had written for the > guitar though. :) But there are many original 19th century arrangements ;-) of Mozart pieces for guitar. Apart from the obvious Sor, Diabelli, Mertz, Morlitor and Traeg come to mind. There's a well-done new edition of 'Mozart for Guitar' from Doblinger (35 910). Sorry, should be posted on a guitar list, I suppose. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
- Original Message - From: LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, August 2, 2005 2:05 am Subject: OT: Mozart for guitar > > I do wish Mozart had written for the > > guitar though. :) > > But there are many original 19th century arrangements ;-) of > Mozart pieces > for guitar. Apart from the obvious Sor, Diabelli, Mertz, Morlitor > and Traeg > come to mind. There's a well-done new edition of 'Mozart for > Guitar' from > Doblinger (35 910). > > Sorry, should be posted on a guitar list, I suppose. Not quite guitar, but Mozart did write two songs and the famous Canzonette from Don Giovanni for mandolin accompaniment. Beethoven left four miniatures for mandolin and keyboard; Paganini, three: two with guitar accompaniment and one solo. Hummel left a marvelous 3-movement concerto and 3-movement sonata for mandolin. In spite of his obscurity, Hoffman's mandolin music, several sonatas and a concerto, is of good quality. It was a good time for mandolin, and the guitar's good time was just around the bend. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
In a message dated 8/1/2005 11:10:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But there are many original 19th century arrangements ;-) of Mozart pieces for guitar. Apart from the obvious Sor, Diabelli, Mertz, Morlitor and Traeg come to mind. There's a well-done new edition of 'Mozart for Guitar' from Doblinger (35 910). Not to mention James Edwards arrangements of Mozart's (so called) "Viennese Sonatinas" for solo guitar; published by Mel Bay. :) I guess my point was; wouldn't it be great to have a genius like Mozart ( assuming he would know the guitar as well as he did the piano) writing pieces for guitar? James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). "The guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, "The only thing worse than one flute, is two." Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking "please give my regards to Giuliani." Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). "The guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
- Original Message - From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2005 4:04 am Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > ...There's no factual basis for the belief common in the > guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never > even have spoken to one another. However, another contemporary guitarist, Anton Diabelli, certainly did. I'm not aware of any evidence that Diabelli's guitar playing ever entered Beethoven's perception, but their interaction is undeniable (consider Beethoven's op. 120, e.g.). There were also many period arrangements of Beethoven songs for guitar. > Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the > wall above his bed. Having never seen a photo of him in his living quarters, I don't know, but Schubert certainly played and loved the guitar. I believe a fair number of his songs were published with guitar accompaniment before the piano accompaniment became available. It would be hard to argue against the fact that guitar enjoyed a wave of popularity in Viennese parlors around this time. There is no read to give this notion any more or less weight than it deserves. I like guitar as much as any other plucked string. There is no need to exaggerate its various historical appearances, but no need to belittle them either. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2005 1:59 am Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > ...I guess my > point was; > wouldn't it be great to have a genius like Mozart ( assuming he > would know the > guitar as well as he did the piano) writing pieces for guitar? I need to add the disclaimer that I appreciate Mozart, but have never been a great fan of his work. That said, there were plenty of just-post-Mozart guitarists who generated some very fine material for guitar. A couple of my favorites are de Fossa, Legnani, and Regondi. The Boccherini quintets and Sinfonia are pleasant enough. Paganini did pretty well by guitar as did the ubiquitous Sor and Giuliani. ...And Mertz, Carcassi, Carulli, Matiegka, von Call, Gragnani, Sychra, Weber, etc. Feel free to enjoy the guitar for what it is; there's no need to pine over what it has not been. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Arthur, If I may, and I did spend some typing time saying how much I respect your opinion on another thread, may I ask you not to "shout" at me. I did say that it was a vague memory that the quote was from Mozart, and that it was probably apochryphal. You don't need the caps "NOT from Mozart", nor the "NOT from Beethoven". You could simply say "I recognize the quote and it was from an obscure Parisian journal and attributed to Berlioz". ] When speculative answers are given to questions it is not a matter for "correction" in the sense of a beating, merely for a gentle correction with the facts. Should we deny the speculative answers then we would lose the threads of consciousness that lead to real answers. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness To: Jon Murphy ; LGS-Europe ; Lute Net ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:04 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, "The only thing worse than one flute, is two." Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking "please give my regards to Giuliani." Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). "The guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
I seem to recall having read a quote attributed to Berlioz to the effect that, "There is no sound worse than the sound of fifty guitars playing the same note at the same time." Was not Berlioz a guitarist? Gary Digman P.S: What's the definition of a minor second? Two guitarists playing the same note at the same time. What's the definition of counterpont? Two guitarists playing the same line at the same time. - Original Message - From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:04 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). > > While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, "The only thing worse than one flute, is two." > > Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking "please give my regards to Giuliani." Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. > > Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. > > This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. > - Original Message ----- > From: Jon Murphy > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > > > Also OT, > > In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). "The > guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or heard > it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is > accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in > mind when writing for piano. > > Best, Jon > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 > >
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Dear Jon,
Sorry I missed your words of praise for me on another thread. I should NOT
have yelled at you even if you had said nasty things about me.
But one keeps hearing the same story over and over. So much so that you can't
help shouting. That's because everyone looks in the logical place, Berlioz's
book on orchestration, where there is a brief discussion of the guitar. But no
mention about the miniature orchestra. So you get the oft told tale that it is
NOT by Berlioz but by Beethoven. ("Afterall, I looked and it ain't their.")
The comment is of interest, because Berlioz's major instrument was guitar (and
fife). And sometimes in his orchestral works you can almost hear the strumming
of guitar. The next time you hear a work by Berlioz, listen carefully and I
think you will recognize guitar figurations. He must have composed "at the
guitar."
- Original Message -
From: Jon Murphy
To: Arthur Ness ; LGS-Europe ; Lute Net ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Arthur,
If I may, and I did spend some typing time saying how much I respect your
opinion on another thread, may I ask you not to "shout" at me. I did say that
it was a vague memory that the quote was from Mozart, and that it was probably
apochryphal. You don't need the caps "NOT from Mozart", nor the "NOT from
Beethoven". You could simply say "I recognize the quote and it was from an
obscure Parisian journal and attributed to Berlioz". ]
When speculative answers are given to questions it is not a matter for
"correction" in the sense of a beating, merely for a gentle correction with the
facts. Should we deny the speculative answers then we would lose the threads of
consciousness that lead to real answers.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: Arthur Ness
To: Jon Murphy ; LGS-Europe ; Lute Net ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from
Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay
about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the
arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855).
While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that
the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase
of something Mozart also did NOT say, "The only thing worse than one flute, is
two."
Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani.
If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of
his Viennese publishers, asking "please give my regards to Giuliani." Of
course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on
the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first
performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him
that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point?
There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that
Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another.
Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above
his bed.
This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite.
- Original Message -
From: Jon Murphy
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Also OT,
In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal).
"The
guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or
heard
it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is
accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in
mind when writing for piano.
Best, Jon
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
--
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Hi All There is a fantastic biography by Thomas F. Heck entitled "Mauro Giuliani Virtuoso Guitarist and Composer" pub. by Editions Orphee 1995 that chronicles the guitarist's life, the guitar in Italy and it's place in the concert life of Vienna. A fascinating must read for those interested in guitar history. I picked the book in back in March at a bookshop in Baltimore - devoured it in two days. SS Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to > one of his Viennese publishers, asking "please give my regards to Giuliani." Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass > on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that > time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani > influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. In fact Giuliani's music is so "memorable" that it couldn't influence ANYONE.. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: OT: Mozart for guitar
Really, children. I thought we had moved on past the guitar-bashing stage. Roman doesn't like Giuliani (I wonder who will be discussing Roman after he's been dead for 150 years) and now the cheap-shot jokes? Some of us love the guitar - almost all of us began on the guitar. Give it a rest! Joseph Mayes From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 5:25 AM To: lutelist Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar I seem to recall having read a quote attributed to Berlioz to the effect that, "There is no sound worse than the sound of fifty guitars playing the same note at the same time." Was not Berlioz a guitarist? Gary Digman P.S: What's the definition of a minor second? Two guitarists playing the same note at the same time. What's the definition of counterpont? Two guitarists playing the same line at the same time. - Original Message - From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute Net" ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:04 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). > > While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, "The only thing worse than one flute, is two." > > Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking "please give my regards to Giuliani." Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. > > Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. > > This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. > ----- Original Message - > From: Jon Murphy > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > > > Also OT, > > In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). "The > guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or heard > it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is > accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in > mind when writing for piano. > > Best, Jon > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 > > --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Don't forget Brian Jeffery's Sor biography. - Original Message - From: Sal Salvaggio To: Jon Murphy ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:37 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Hi All There is a fantastic biography by Thomas F. Heck entitled "Mauro Giuliani Virtuoso Guitarist and Composer" pub. by Editions Orphee 1995 that chronicles the guitarist's life, the guitar in Italy and it's place in the concert life of Vienna. A fascinating must read for those interested in guitar history. I picked the book in back in March at a bookshop in Baltimore - devoured it in two days. SS Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Hi all, on Wednesday 03 August 2005 15:08, Mayes, Joseph wrote: > I thought we had moved on past the guitar-bashing stage. Roman > doesn't like Giuliani (I wonder who will be discussing Roman after > he's been dead for 150 years) Roman just forgets the expression "in my humble opinion" in his composer and musician critics ... ;-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT Mozart for guitar
> Really, children. > > I thought we had moved on past the guitar-bashing stage. Roman doesn't like Giuliani (I wonder who will be discussing Roman after he's been dead for 150 years) 1. Happens to the best of us, as you may recall. 2. Some are discussing Kapsberger, although even his champions admit that as a composer he was simply incompetent. 21st century relativism legitimized a lot of crap. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> Roman just forgets the expression "in my humble opinion" in his > composer and musician critics ... ;-) I always interpret the abbreviation IMHO as "in my HONEST opinion". RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > ...I guess my > > point was; > > wouldn't it be great to have a genius like Mozart ( assuming he > > would know the > > guitar as well as he did the piano) writing pieces for guitar? It would be nice indeed, but he obviously didn't find it inspirational. > I need to add the disclaimer that I appreciate Mozart, but have never been a great fan of his work. That said, there were plenty of just-post-Mozart > guitarists who generated some very fine material for guitar. A couple of my favorites are de Fossa, Legnani, and Regondi. I am glad you used the word "material" rather than "music". > The Boccherini quintets and Sinfonia are pleasant enough. P B's quintets are a lot more than "pleasant". They are FINE music, with or without guitar.. > aganini did pretty well by guitar as did the ubiquitous Sor and Giuliani. ..And Mertz, Carcassi, Carulli, Matiegka, von Call, Gragnani, Sychra, Weber, etc. > Feel free to enjoy the guitar for what it is; there's no need to pine over what it has not been. Agree wholeheartedly. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: OT: Mozart for guitar
..and since we're off-topic, who created the painting/lithograph/? of the guitarists engaged in a salon battle? I believe it was circa 1850. I'd love to find a copy of that one. All of those guitars being wielded as weapons! Sort of reminds me of this list occasionally >:) Garry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
On Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005, at 07:02 America/Los_Angeles, Garry Bryan wrote: > who created the painting/lithograph/? of the > guitarists engaged in a salon battle? Are you thinking of the "Discussion between the Carullists and the Molinists" fro La Guitaromanie by Charles de Marescot? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: OT: Mozart for guitar
Thanks Howard! That's it! Garry -Original Message- From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:55 AM To: Garry Bryan Cc: 'lute' Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar On Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005, at 07:02 America/Los_Angeles, Garry Bryan wrote: > who created the painting/lithograph/? of the > guitarists engaged in a salon battle? Are you thinking of the "Discussion between the Carullists and the Molinists" fro La Guitaromanie by Charles de Marescot? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT Mozart for guitar
Roman Turovsky wrote: > 2. Some are discussing Kapsberger, although even his champions admit > that as > a composer he was simply incompetent. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT Mozart for guitar
> Roman Turovsky wrote: > > > 2. Some are discussing Kapsberger, although even his champions admit > > that as > > a composer he was simply incompetent. See Lislevand's booklet a propos. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
In a message dated 8/3/2005 1:37:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And Mertz, Carcassi, Carulli, Matiegka, von Call, Gragnani, Sychra, Weber, etc. Feel free to enjoy the guitar for what it is; there's no need to pine over what it has not been. Not pining, but I think Mozart was a much better composer than the ones mentioned above; it would've been interesting. Any guitar that Mozart might've heard at that time would probably have been the five course type anyway... James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 02:59 PM 8/3/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Not pining, but I think Mozart was a much better composer than the ones >mentioned above; it would've been interesting. Any guitar that Mozart >might've heard at that time would probably have been the five course type >anyway... It was a transitional time for guitar. I suspect the guitars Mozart might have encountered might have been left single strung as five-stringers, at least later in his life. There is also a fair chance he would have encountered mandoras in tunings identical or nearly so to later six-string guitars. Albrechtsberger, e.g., wrote concerti for mandora. On the quality of Mozart's light efforts at composition, I don't know that he would have offered the guitar anything to qualify as any more profound than de Fossa, Sor, or Giuliani did shortly after Mozart's passing. His mandolin song accompaniments, e.g., are very pleasant, sprightly, attractive, etc. but a little on the light side and, not being known as a mandolinist, a little light on exploiting the mandolin's technical capabilities. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Actually I thought it was Segovia, who said that each string of the guitar was like a separate little instrument Alain Arthur Ness wrote: >The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from >Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay >about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the >arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). > >While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the >only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of >something Mozart also did NOT say, "The only thing worse than one flute, is >two." > >Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If >he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of >his Viennese publishers, asking "please give my regards to Giuliani." Of >course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on >the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first >performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him >that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? >There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that >Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. > >Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his >bed. > >This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. > - Original Message - > From: Jon Murphy > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > > > Also OT, > > In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). "The > guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or heard > it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is > accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in > mind when writing for piano. > > Best, Jon > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > >
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 03:48 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: >Are you joking? Eugene, this is like saying tuna was whitebait. >Are you not familiar with Mass in c-minor, Requiem, sonatas in a and c, >fantasias in d and c, 25th symphony, concerti ##20, 24 & 26??? Not joking at all. But you've removed my assertion from its context. There's a reason Mozart chose to not write his truly profound works for guitar. I was speculating that had he written specifically for guitar, he probably wouldn't have put any more effort at profundity into it than he did the pleasant trifles he concocted for mandolin. There simply wasn't any precedent for "heavy" guitar music at that point in time. ...And, not being a guitarist, I doubt Mozart could have exploited the instrument's technical quirks as well as de Fossa, Sor, or Giuliani. >Could you tell us of anyone who might be considered HEAVY apropos mandoline? Certainly not heavy, but there is plenty that was more thorough at exploiting the technical idiosyncrasies of of the various mandolin types than Mozart: Leone, Hoffman, Denis, Barbella... Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> >Are you joking? Eugene, this is like saying tuna was whitebait. > >Are you not familiar with Mass in c-minor, Requiem, sonatas in a and c, > >fantasias in d and c, 25th symphony, concerti ##20, 24 & 26??? > Not joking at all. But you've removed my assertion from its > context. There's a reason Mozart chose to not write his truly profound > works for guitar. Along with everyone else (except maybe Paulo Galvao...) I was speculating that had he written specifically for > guitar, he probably wouldn't have put any more effort at profundity into it > than he did the pleasant trifles he concocted for mandolin. Agreed. It would have been, as we say in Russian, trading a bar of soap for a hole-punch. There simply > wasn't any precedent for "heavy" guitar music at that point in > time. And a very long time after, as well. >...And, not being a guitarist, I doubt Mozart could have exploited > the instrument's technical quirks as well as de Fossa, Sor, or Giuliani. Quirks don't make profound. > >Could you tell us of anyone who might be considered HEAVY apropos mandoline? > Certainly not heavy, but there is plenty that was more thorough at > exploiting the technical idiosyncrasies of of the various mandolin types > than Mozart: Leone, Hoffman, Denis, Barbella... > Best, > Eugene Technical idiosyncrfasies are not musical substance. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
On Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005, at 12:33 America/Los_Angeles, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > There is also a fair chance he would have > encountered mandoras in tunings identical or nearly so to later > six-string > guitars. Maybe it's a hallucination of long standing, but I recall seeing a picture of Leopold Mozart seated with Wolfgang and his sister (aged maybe nine and 12 or so) and holding a mandora. Has anyone else ever seen this? HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 04:17 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: >Quirks don't make profound. > >Technical idiosyncrfasies are not musical substance. I certainly wouldn't argue that they are, but they are important considerations of instrumental composition and can amount to something rather exciting. That's why Giuliani remains popular; it's fun and should be enjoyed without shame for what it is, even if it's not quite on par with the sophistication of Mozart's Requiem or Beethoven's Hammerklavier. Mozart, in writing for mandolin, barely glanced towards profundity and wholly skirted technically advanced. Again, I doubt he would have offered the guitar anything different. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> At 04:17 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: > >Quirks don't make profound. > > > >Technical idiosyncrfasies are not musical substance. > > > I certainly wouldn't argue that they are, but they are important > considerations of instrumental composition and can amount to something > rather exciting. Or lack thereof. > That's why Giuliani remains popular; it's fun and should > be enjoyed without shame for what it is, Fun to play, sure, but not to listen to. > even if it's not quite on par with > the sophistication of Mozart's Requiem or Beethoven's > Hammerklavier. Inspiration rather than sophistication. > Mozart, in writing for mandolin, barely glanced towards > profundity and wholly skirted technically advanced. Again, I doubt he > would have offered the guitar anything different. I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 04:45 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: > > would have offered the guitar anything different. >I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be >impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most >profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. There you go. I actually like what the guitar does and make no pretense to what it can't do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
On Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005, at 13:45 America/Los_Angeles, Roman Turovsky wrote: > I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be > impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most > profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > > would have offered the guitar anything different. > >I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be > >impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most > >profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. > > > There you go. I actually like what the guitar does and make no pretense to > what it can't do. > > Eugene I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be > > impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most > > profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. > > So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 04:59 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: >I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. Like lutes, mandolins, serpents, mandoras, etc., guitars are only inanimate tools. Guitars can't be blamed for what passionate, sometimes overzealous guitarists do in their name. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Roman Turovsky wrote: >> So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? > Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. Are we assuming A=440 for these purposes? If so, is it OK to write profound music for lute in A if we're at A=392? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Segovia also said: The song of the piano is a discourse. The song of the 'cello is an elegy. But the song of the guitar is a song. (Actually, to be more correct, he said "The zonk of the guitar is a zonk", but I have translated/transliterated) But what is the song of the lute? Marcus Alain Veylit wrote: >Actually I thought it was Segovia, who said that each string of the >guitar was like a separate little instrument >Alain > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
"Marcus Merrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Segovia also said: > The song of the piano is a discourse. > The song of the 'cello is an elegy. > But the song of the guitar is a song. > > (Actually, to be more correct, he said "The zonk of the guitar is a > zonk", but I have translated/transliterated) > > But what is the song of the lute? another koan... :) best, though Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> >> So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? > > Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. > > Are we assuming A=440 for these purposes? If so, is it OK to write > profound music for lute in A if we're at A=392? Let me put it this way: there should be a set minimum string length, something like 59-60 cm, with severe legal penalties otherwise. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Dear Alain, It's definitely Berlioz, altho Segovia may have said something similar. The operative words for Berlioz are "miniature orchestra." In the article he describes the sound qualities of the Parisian guitar of his day. It is cited in Barzun's biography. I think only one library in the U.S. has that arts journal from 1855. I've never seen the actual article. But a Berlioz scholar at Smith or Vassar told me about it. And the master's thesis at the U of Maryland. He said it was a good piece of work, and I tried unsuccessfully to get it on ILL. You might try, if it is of particular interest. It's listed in NG (Berlioz bibl.) "Berlioz and the Slur" Heavens! Nope, not that one. Here it is: P. J. Dallman: "Influences and Use of the Guitar in the Music of Berlioz" (thesis, U. of Maryland, 1972). Cited NG 2 (1980 ed.): 610. arthur - Original Message - From: Alain Veylit To: Arthur Ness Cc: Lute Net ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:37 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Actually I thought it was Segovia, who said that each string of the guitar was like a separate little instrument Alain Arthur Ness wrote: >The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). > >While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, "The only thing worse than one flute, is two." > >Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking "please give my regards to Giuliani." Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. > >Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. > >This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. > - Original Message - > From: Jon Murphy > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > > > Also OT, > > In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). "The > guitar is an orchestra unto itself". I have no idea where I saw it, or heard > it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is > accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in > mind when writing for piano. > > Best, Jon > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > > --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
In a message dated 8/3/2005 2:36:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Segovia also said: The song of the piano is a discourse. The song of the 'cello is an elegy. But the song of the guitar is a song. (Actually, to be more correct, he said "The zonk of the guitar is a zonk", but I have translated/transliterated) But what is the song of the lute? The song of the lute is transcendental. James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
On Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005, at 15:04 America/Los_Angeles, Roman Turovsky wrote: > Let me put it this way: there should be a set minimum string length, > something like 59-60 cm, with severe legal penalties otherwise. Have we told the violinists? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
"Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > >> So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? > > > Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. > > > > Are we assuming A=440 for these purposes? If so, is it OK to write > > profound music for lute in A if we're at A=392? > Let me put it this way: there should be a set minimum string length, > something like 59-60 cm, with severe legal penalties otherwise. may I play my little descant sweety (44 cm), nevertheless, if I close the doors? Cheers, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Fw: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > > Let me put it this way: there should be a set minimum string length, > > > something like 59-60 cm, with severe legal penalties otherwise. > > > > Have we told the violinists? We are NOT violinists, thankfully. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > > >> So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? > > > > Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. > > > > > > Are we assuming A=440 for these purposes? If so, is it OK to write > > > profound music for lute in A if we're at A=392? > > Let me put it this way: there should be a set minimum string length, > > something like 59-60 cm, with severe legal penalties otherwise. > > may I play my little descant sweety (44 cm), nevertheless, if I close > the doors? No. Use it on the Tochterchen trhough. RT > > Cheers, > > Mathias > -- ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
'THE ZONK OF THE LUTE IS OUT OFA' TUNA HALFA DA TIMEA' SORRY - I COULDN'T HELP IT ss Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
"Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. >>> Are we assuming A=440 for these purposes? If so, is it OK to write profound music for lute in A if we're at A=392? >> Let me put it this way: there should be a set minimum string length, something like 59-60 cm, with severe legal penalties otherwise. >> may I play my little descant sweety (44 cm), nevertheless, if I close the doors? > No. Use it on the Tochterchen trhough. would encouraging non-adults (children) to play descant lutes _in public_ qualify as an offence of the under-59-cm act? Would lack of other players than my seven-year-old daughter save me from getting filed? Howard? Cheers, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Excellently said! I once participated in a masterclass with Robert Spencer. My lute had just travelled 100 Km in Nova Scotian winter conditions and I had just changed to my first set of gut strings. Needless to say tuning was a misery, and I suffered the embarassment of wasting considerable time tuning my 10 course in front of an audience of about 80 guitarists and singers. My singer looked like he might need a change of pants at any minute. Robert, ever the gentleman, made light of my difficulties as follows: "Lutenists need to live twice as long as ordinary people, because they have to spend a lifetime tuning." It is a sad irony that he had such a short life himself. Marcus Sal Salvaggio wrote: >'THE ZONK OF THE LUTE IS OUT OFA' TUNA HALFA DA TIMEA' > > >SORRY - I COULDN'T HELP IT > >ss > > > >Salvatore Salvaggio >http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com > > > > > > >__ >Do you Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Mathias Rösel wrote: > would encouraging non-adults (children) to play descant lutes _in > public_ qualify as an offence of the under-59-cm act? Would lack of > other players than my seven-year-old daughter save me from getting > filed? Howard? To be fair, Roman's prohibition (far less sweeping than is usual with him) was only against playing profound music. So you and your daughter can play any instrument you want, so long as you inspect it to certify it free of profundity, or, if you find any, do a complete profundectomy on it. H To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > would encouraging non-adults (children) to play descant lutes _in > > public_ qualify as an offence of the under-59-cm act? Would lack of > > other players than my seven-year-old daughter save me from getting > > filed? Howard? > > To be fair, Roman's prohibition (far less sweeping than is usual with > him) was only against playing profound music. So you and your daughter > can play any instrument you want, so long as you inspect it to certify > it free of profundity, or, if you find any, do a complete profundectomy > on it. > > H I think I'll seek a second opinion from Dan Shoskes, before offering any such procedure, whether with epidural or general anesthesia.. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: OT: Mozart for guitar
The passage from Segovia's autobiography which I vaguely remember goes something like: "You play the guitar to woo your lover. When you are betrayed by your lover, you play the cello to tell your sorrows to your friend. When you are betrayed by your friend, you play the organ to tell your sorrows to God." -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar In a message dated 8/3/2005 2:36:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Segovia also said: The song of the piano is a discourse. The song of the 'cello is an elegy. But the song of the guitar is a song. (Actually, to be more correct, he said "The zonk of the guitar is a zonk", but I have translated/transliterated) But what is the song of the lute? The song of the lute is transcendental. James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Stuart, > The passage from Segovia's autobiography which I vaguely remember goes something > like: > > "You play the guitar to woo your lover. When you are betrayed by your lover, > you play the cello to tell your sorrows to your friend. When you are betrayed > by your friend, you play the organ to tell your sorrows to God." My lady of thirty years has always wondered why I insist on playing other instruments when she was wooed by my guitar - but it was my guitar so much as my singing with it in a traditional folk form - I was never skilled on the classical guitar. But I am interested by the quote from Segovia, whom I always thought of as a great mechanic on the guitar, but one lacking a bit in the soul of the instrument. I liked the passion of Montoya (admittedly Flamenco) and in the more Spanish Sabicas. But seeing this quote I think I understand Segovia better. I'll adjust my opinion. How well said, substitute the lute for the guitar - or for we ethics play the airs on the D whistle to your love, and play them on the low whistle to the moon. But the double betrayal deserves the power of anguish. Nothing better than the organ to send all your music into space, and simultaneously. The pipe organ can bring down the walls, or sing to the corners. But it is yet for the small clear voice of the lute to fill the cathedral when the echoes of the organ stop. Or the guitar, or the whistle, or any small instrument. My own preference is for "small music", but I can enjoy the large if followed by the small, and then filled out again. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
In a message dated 8/3/2005 1:52:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. Such as? JE -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> In a message dated 8/3/2005 1:52:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. > > Such as? > > JE Ever seen the Yamashita circus? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. > > Such as? > > JE Ever seen the Yamashita circus? RT That's an excellent specific example of one person's "unrealism", I agree; but I was hoping for an explanation of your seemingly general "claim" about the "guitar's habits". JE -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. > > > > Such as? > > > > JE > Ever seen the Yamashita circus? > RT > > That's an excellent specific example of one person's "unrealism", I agree; > but I was hoping for an explanation of your seemingly general "claim" about > the "guitar's habits". > JE KY is the tip of the iceberg so to speak, but there is a legion of DelPriora type of composers as well, etc. etc. However, I'd prfefer not to get into this topic. Lets stick to them lutes. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
I've just come back from a four day guitar workshop and read this thread. During the course of the workshop: 1) I watched Christopher Nupen's documentary on Segovia made when the Maestro was 75. During this programme Segovia talked about the guitar as an orchestra in miniature (though I can't remember his exact words) and demonstrated it's "orchestral voices". He didn't comment on the fact that Berlioz had made the same comparison, though he must have known this. 2) Someone repeated the belief commonly held among guitarists that Beethoven wrote "Moonlight Sonata" after hearing Fernando Sor's study in B minor for guitar. (I think it's from Sor's opus 31, but I'm not sure because my copy hasn't got the opus no. on it.) I'd be interested if anyone (perhaps Arthur) knows whether there is any basis for this belief. Eric Crouch On 5 Aug 2005, at 18:39, Roman Turovsky wrote: >> I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. >> >>> >>> Such as? >>> >>> JE >>> >> Ever seen the Yamashita circus? >> RT >> >> That's an excellent specific example of one person's "unrealism", I >> > agree; > >> but I was hoping for an explanation of your seemingly general "claim" >> > about > >> the "guitar's habits". >> JE >> > KY is the tip of the iceberg so to speak, but there is a legion of > DelPriora > type of composers as well, etc. etc. However, I'd prfefer not > to get > into this topic. Lets stick to them lutes. > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Eric Crouch wrote: > 2) Someone repeated the belief commonly held among guitarists that > Beethoven wrote "Moonlight Sonata" after hearing Fernando Sor's study > in B minor for guitar. (I think it's from Sor's opus 31, but I'm not > sure because my copy hasn't got the opus no. on it.) I'd be > interested if anyone (perhaps Arthur) knows whether there is any > basis for this belief. Could the basis be that to some listeners, one bunch of arpeggios sounds pretty much like another? Do guitarists really believe this? Unless I am badly misinformed, it's obviously impossible. The Moonlight Sonata was written in 1801 (when Beethoven was 30 and Sor about 23) and published in 1802. Sor had not left Spain by then and none of his music was published before 1804. So it would be impossible for Beethoven to have written the sonata after hearing the Sor study. It is, of course, possible that Beethoven influenced Sor. Howard Posner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Well, thanks for clearing that one up! The arpeggio pattern is different in the Sor study (which I now discover is Opus 35 no. 22) but there are similarities in the chord sequence sufficient to make the resemblance striking - and, yes it must be that guitarists are just very credulous people! =EF=BF=BC Eric Crouch On 7 Aug 2005, at 20:46, Howard Posner wrote: > Eric Crouch wrote: > > >> 2) Someone repeated the belief commonly held among guitarists that >> Beethoven wrote "Moonlight Sonata" after hearing Fernando Sor's study >> in B minor for guitar. (I think it's from Sor's opus 31, but I'm not >> sure because my copy hasn't got the opus no. on it.) I'd be >> interested if anyone (perhaps Arthur) knows whether there is any >> basis for this belief. >> > > Could the basis be that to some listeners, one bunch of arpeggios > sounds pretty much like another? > Do guitarists really believe this? Unless I am badly misinformed, it's > obviously impossible. > > The Moonlight Sonata was written in 1801 (when Beethoven was 30 and > Sor > about 23) and published in 1802. Sor had not left Spain by then and > none of his music was published before 1804. So it would be > impossible > for Beethoven to have written the sonata after hearing the Sor study. > It is, of course, possible that Beethoven influenced Sor. > > Howard Posner > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> Well, thanks for clearing that one up! > The arpeggio pattern is different in the Sor study (which I now > discover is Opus 35 no. 22) but there are similarities in the chord > sequence sufficient to make the resemblance striking - and, yes it > must be that guitarists are just very credulous people! You mean the one that Sor pilfered from #21 at http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/opus-2.html RT > =EF=BF=BC > Eric Crouch > > On 7 Aug 2005, at 20:46, Howard Posner wrote: > > > Eric Crouch wrote: > > > > > >> 2) Someone repeated the belief commonly held among guitarists that > >> Beethoven wrote "Moonlight Sonata" after hearing Fernando Sor's study > >> in B minor for guitar. (I think it's from Sor's opus 31, but I'm not > >> sure because my copy hasn't got the opus no. on it.) I'd be > >> interested if anyone (perhaps Arthur) knows whether there is any > >> basis for this belief. > >> > > > > Could the basis be that to some listeners, one bunch of arpeggios > > sounds pretty much like another? > > Do guitarists really believe this? Unless I am badly misinformed, it's > > obviously impossible. > > > > The Moonlight Sonata was written in 1801 (when Beethoven was 30 and > > Sor > > about 23) and published in 1802. Sor had not left Spain by then and > > none of his music was published before 1804. So it would be > > impossible > > for Beethoven to have written the sonata after hearing the Sor study. > > It is, of course, possible that Beethoven influenced Sor. > > > > Howard Posner > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > -- > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Yes, that's the one! (Sor's version is No. 5 at ) EC On 8 Aug 2005, at 17:35, Roman Turovsky wrote: >> Well, thanks for clearing that one up! >> The arpeggio pattern is different in the Sor study (which I now >> discover is Opus 35 no. 22) but there are similarities in the chord >> sequence sufficient to make the resemblance striking - and, yes it >> must be that guitarists are just very credulous people! >> > You mean the one that Sor pilfered from #21 at > http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/opus-2.html > RT > > > > >> =EF=BF=BC >> Eric Crouch >> >> On 7 Aug 2005, at 20:46, Howard Posner wrote: >> >> >>> Eric Crouch wrote: >>> >>> >>> 2) Someone repeated the belief commonly held among guitarists that Beethoven wrote "Moonlight Sonata" after hearing Fernando Sor's study in B minor for guitar. (I think it's from Sor's opus 31, but I'm not sure because my copy hasn't got the opus no. on it.) I'd be interested if anyone (perhaps Arthur) knows whether there is any basis for this belief. >>> >>> Could the basis be that to some listeners, one bunch of arpeggios >>> sounds pretty much like another? >>> Do guitarists really believe this? Unless I am badly misinformed, >>> it's >>> obviously impossible. >>> >>> The Moonlight Sonata was written in 1801 (when Beethoven was 30 and >>> Sor >>> about 23) and published in 1802. Sor had not left Spain by then and >>> none of his music was published before 1804. So it would be >>> impossible >>> for Beethoven to have written the sonata after hearing the Sor >>> study. >>> It is, of course, possible that Beethoven influenced Sor. >>> >>> Howard Posner >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > ___ > $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. > Signup at www.doteasy.com > >
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> Yes, that's the one! (Sor's version is No. 5 at www.guitarist.com/midis/sor/sor20.htm>) > EC Lets keep it out of their paws. RT > >> Well, thanks for clearing that one up! > >> The arpeggio pattern is different in the Sor study (which I now > >> discover is Opus 35 no. 22) but there are similarities in the chord > >> sequence sufficient to make the resemblance striking - and, yes it > >> must be that guitarists are just very credulous people! > > You mean the one that Sor pilfered from #21 at > > http://www.polyhymnion.org/swv/opus-2.html > > RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Dear Erich and Howard, You are correct. All of the Sor studies,except Op.6, were published after Beethoven's death. As Howard notes, it was probably the other way around if there is any study influenced by the Moonlight. What composer could possibly escape the influence of Beethoven. I even know an Irish fantasia by Leonardo what'is name? that has a harmonic progression very similar to the introduction to Beethoven's Second Symphony. Alas it's in that Danish collection of guitar music, and many accidentals are left out. Also in D minor/major. The guitarist/copyist probably used staff notation as a kind of "aide memoire" for what was essentially playing by ear. Even though many wrong notes were written on the page, his fingers probably went to the correct frets. I found the piece. It's "Recollections of Ireland" by Leonardo Schultz (Op.41). It's RiBs ms244c in that immense collection of guitar music at the Royal Library in Copenhagen. You can download it here: http://www.icoldwell.com/robert/music/library/denmark.html The last hjalf ofthe Introduction is one of those "misterioso" harmonic progressions, emphasizing the tonic minor (here d minor). That is, when the "theme" appears in measure 13 it is colored by the sudden appearance of the major mode (here D Major). It's a Tierce de Picardy effect. In these progressions the F sharp is withheld until it resolves when the "theme" is sounded. This procedure is found frequently in Beethoven, but earlier in Mozart as well. In the Introduction under discussion you need these corrections: B flats in m. 7, 8 and 11 F naturals in m. 10 and 11. The fingerings are wrong, a misreading by the amateur,who attempted to correct himself, but got the wrong notes when he made the correction. Surely Schultz had Beethoven inthe ears when he wrote that passage. - Original Message - From: Howard Posner Cc: Lute Net Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Eric Crouch wrote: > 2) Someone repeated the belief commonly held among guitarists that > Beethoven wrote "Moonlight Sonata" after hearing Fernando Sor's study > in B minor for guitar. (I think it's from Sor's opus 31, but I'm not > sure because my copy hasn't got the opus no. on it.) I'd be > interested if anyone (perhaps Arthur) knows whether there is any > basis for this belief. Could the basis be that to some listeners, one bunch of arpeggios sounds pretty much like another? Do guitarists really believe this? Unless I am badly misinformed, it's obviously impossible. The Moonlight Sonata was written in 1801 (when Beethoven was 30 and Sor about 23) and published in 1802. Sor had not left Spain by then and none of his music was published before 1804. So it would be impossible for Beethoven to have written the sonata after hearing the Sor study. It is, of course, possible that Beethoven influenced Sor. Howard Posner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
SCHULZ Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Dear Erich and Howard, You are correct. All of the Sor studies,except Op.6, were published after Beethoven's death. As Howard notes, it was probably the other way around if there is any study influenced by the Moonlight. What composer could possibly escape the influence of Beethoven. I even know an Irish fantasia by Leonardo what'is name? that has a harmonic progression very similar to the introduction to Beethoven's Second Symphony. Alas it's in that Danish collection of guitar music, and many accidentals are left out. Also in D minor/major. The guitarist/copyist probably used staff notation as a kind of "aide memoire" for what was essentially playing by ear. Even though many wrong notes were written on the page, his fingers probably went to the correct frets. I found the piece. It's "Recollections of Ireland" by Leonardo Schultz (Op.41). It's RiBs ms244c in that immense collection of guitar music at the Royal Library in Copenhagen. You can download it here: http://www.icoldwell.com/robert/music/library/denmark.html The last hjalf ofthe Introduction is one of those "misterioso" harmonic progressions, emphasizing the tonic minor (here d minor). That is, when the "theme" appears in measure 13 it is colored by the sudden appearance of the major mode (here D Major). It's a Tierce de Picardy effect. In these progressions the F sharp is withheld until it resolves when the "theme" is sounded. This procedure is found frequently in Beethoven, but earlier in Mozart as well. In the Introduction under discussion you need these corrections: B flats in m. 7, 8 and 11 F naturals in m. 10 and 11. The fingerings are wrong, a misreading by the amateur,who attempted to correct himself, but got the wrong notes when he made the correction. Surely Schultz had Beethoven inthe ears when he wrote that passage. - Original Message - From: Howard Posner Cc: Lute Net Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Eric Crouch wrote: > 2) Someone repeated the belief commonly held among guitarists that > Beethoven wrote "Moonlight Sonata" after hearing Fernando Sor's study > in B minor for guitar. (I think it's from Sor's opus 31, but I'm not > sure because my copy hasn't got the opus no. on it.) I'd be > interested if anyone (perhaps Arthur) knows whether there is any > basis for this belief. Could the basis be that to some listeners, one bunch of arpeggios sounds pretty much like another? Do guitarists really believe this? Unless I am badly misinformed, it's obviously impossible. The Moonlight Sonata was written in 1801 (when Beethoven was 30 and Sor about 23) and published in 1802. Sor had not left Spain by then and none of his music was published before 1804. So it would be impossible for Beethoven to have written the sonata after hearing the Sor study. It is, of course, possible that Beethoven influenced Sor. Howard Posner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- - How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos --
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
LEONARD SCHULZ
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson
To: Arthur Ness ; Lute Net
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 4:32 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
SCHULZ
Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Erich and Howard,
You are correct. All of the Sor studies,except Op.6, were published after
Beethoven's death. As Howard notes, it was probably the other way around if
there is any study influenced by the Moonlight.
What composer could possibly escape the influence of Beethoven. I even know
an Irish fantasia by Leonardo what'is name? that has a harmonic progression
very similar to the introduction to Beethoven's Second Symphony. Alas it's in
that Danish collection of guitar music, and many accidentals are left out. Also
in D minor/major. The guitarist/copyist probably used staff notation as a kind
of "aide memoire" for what was essentially playing by ear. Even though many
wrong notes were written on the page, his fingers probably went to the correct
frets.
I found the piece. It's "Recollections of Ireland" by Leonardo Schultz
(Op.41). It's RiBs ms244c in that immense collection of guitar music at the
Royal Library in Copenhagen. You can download it here:
http://www.icoldwell.com/robert/music/library/denmark.html
The last hjalf ofthe Introduction is one of those "misterioso" harmonic
progressions, emphasizing the tonic minor (here d minor). That is, when the
"theme" appears in measure 13 it is colored by the sudden appearance of the
major mode (here D Major). It's a Tierce de Picardy effect. In these
progressions the F sharp is withheld until it resolves when the "theme" is
sounded. This procedure is found frequently in Beethoven, but earlier in Mozart
as well. In the Introduction under discussion you need these corrections:
B flats in m. 7, 8 and 11
F naturals in m. 10 and 11.
The fingerings are wrong, a misreading by the amateur,who attempted to
correct himself, but got the wrong notes when he made the correction. Surely
Schultz had Beethoven inthe ears when he wrote that passage.
- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner
Cc: Lute Net
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 3:46 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Eric Crouch wrote:
> 2) Someone repeated the belief commonly held among guitarists that
> Beethoven wrote "Moonlight Sonata" after hearing Fernando Sor's study
> in B minor for guitar. (I think it's from Sor's opus 31, but I'm not
> sure because my copy hasn't got the opus no. on it.) I'd be
> interested if anyone (perhaps Arthur) knows whether there is any
> basis for this belief.
Could the basis be that to some listeners, one bunch of arpeggios
sounds pretty much like another?
Do guitarists really believe this? Unless I am badly misinformed, it's
obviously impossible.
The Moonlight Sonata was written in 1801 (when Beethoven was 30 and Sor
about 23) and published in 1802. Sor had not left Spain by then and
none of his music was published before 1804. So it would be impossible
for Beethoven to have written the sonata after hearing the Sor study.
It is, of course, possible that Beethoven influenced Sor.
Howard Posner
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
--
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE
with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos
--
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Dear Eugene, No one would quarrel with the fact that the guitar enjoyed considerable popularity in Vienna in Beethoven's time. Schubert used the instrument a few times, including in a birthday cantata for his father. I know of no documentary evidence that Schubert played guitar. If he did so, someone would have made note of that fact. Maybe the guy upstairs, who had a guitar hanging over _his_ bed, played in the birthday piece. No one is belittling the guitar here. It is just that some guitarists wish unnecessarily to enhance their instrument by repeating myths that have no basis in fact. The many Schubert Lieder with guitar accompaniment were usually arrangements by Diabelli, Mertz, Pfeifer, et al. One can imagine that the publishers would rush guitar versions into print to beat the competition for lucrative salon sales. If Schubert played guitar, he would have made the arrangements himself and pocketed the extra change. He was really very poor. The Viennese authorities wouldn't let him get married because he didn't have sufficient income to support a wife. His petition to marry was discovered just a few years ago by Rita Steblin. (Just think how different Schubert might have been if he played guitar in a city with so many guitar fanatics.) I think Brian Jefferey has published some of these arrangements. Edited by the late Bob Spencer. Many of you probably know the edition. Beethoven was drawn to Diabelli's waltz because it was such a trite piece of music. Afterall it was really a kind of homework assignment that Diabelli sent out to about 50 Austrian composers, Schubert was one. Others included the 11-year-old Liszt, Czerny and Kalkbrenner.) I used to have an LP of "The Other Diabelli Variations." Interesting listening. But as composers Diabelli and Beethoven dwelled in worlds wide apart. Just compare that cheap waltz with what Beethoven did with it in making what surely is one of the greatest variation sets of all time. I really don't see this as evidence that Diabelli influenced Beethoven. Beethoven probably was angered by such a cheap piece of music, that he saw in it a challenge to show what he could do with it. Even writing a "pun" variation about how hard he had been working, "Notte e giorno faticar," quoting another composer's previous use of a motive similar to one found in the waltz, Leoporello's opening arioso from Don Giovanni. If Diabelli influenced Beethoven, it was probably in a negative way. He wasn't even a significant publisher of LvB's works. He was a major Schubert publisher, though. As for profound use of mandolin by Mozart, nothing could be more profound than Giovanni's serenade "Deh vieni all finestra." After that (thanks to Mozart's seductive music) Giovanni could take any woman in the theater to bed on the spot. It even has his favorite harmonic progression for seduction. I certainly would never consider it a "trifle." - Original Message - From: EUGENE BRAIG IV To: Arthur Ness Cc: Jon Murphy ; LGS-Europe ; Lute Net ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:27 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar - Original Message ----- From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2005 4:04 am Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > ...There's no factual basis for the belief common in the > guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never > even have spoken to one another. However, another contemporary guitarist, Anton Diabelli, certainly did. I'm not aware of any evidence that Diabelli's guitar playing ever entered Beethoven's perception, but their interaction is undeniable (consider Beethoven's op. 120, e.g.). There were also many period arrangements of Beethoven songs for guitar. > Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the > wall above his bed. Having never seen a photo of him in his living quarters, I don't know, but Schubert certainly played and loved the guitar. I believe a fair number of his songs were published with guitar accompaniment before the piano accompaniment became available. It would be hard to argue against the fact that guitar enjoyed a wave of popularity in Viennese parlors around this time. There is no read to give this notion any more or less weight than it deserves. I like guitar as much as any other plucked string. There is no need to exaggerate its various historical appearances, but no need to belittle them either. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
- Original Message - From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:46 am Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > It is just that some guitarists wish unnecessarily to > enhance their instrument by repeating myths that have no basis in > fact. This seems central to the whole of this debate and all your discussion of Beethoven, Diabelli, et al. to follow. That some would artificially enhance guitar via myth is as silly as belittling the instrument. Most who perpetuate these myths hoewever do so more from ignorance and enthusiasm than promoting agenda. Such behavior is to be expected in association with an instrument so popular as the guitar and so likely to attract amateurs. I suggest enjoying it all for what it is and making no pretenses about it in either direction. > I think Brian Jefferey has published some of these arrangements. > Edited by the late Bob Spencer. Many of you probably know the edition. It's a nice facsimile edition. > As for profound use of mandolin by Mozart, nothing could be more > profound than Giovanni's serenade "Deh vieni all finestra." After > that (thanks to Mozart's seductive music) Giovanni could take any > woman in the theater to bed on the spot. It even has his favorite > harmonic progression for seduction. I certainly would never > consider it a "trifle." OK, I'll give you that one, but I think any profundity you perceive is more a matter of context than the mandolin part itself. Don't get me wrong, I love mandolin and its music. My initial comments were in reaction to the notion that Mozart would have written profoundly satisfying music if he'd written for guitar. Pointless speculation, but I still doubt he would have. I know of at least one depiction of Mozart in the presence of guitar, perhaps soon to play along with a guitarist (Pierre Jelyotte--about whom I know no more than his depiction in a painting--in the painting by Michel Barthelemy Ollivier), and Mozart still wasn't inspired to write for the instrument. ...And I actually like guitar. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
That is the painting that Howard mentioned. Pierre Jelyotte (or Jeliotte) was a singer at the Paris opera (d.1782). The painting done in 1766 depicts the ten-year-old Mozart at the harpsichord with Jelyotte tuning a large guitar. We just don't have any record of Mozart having written for guitar, or (inVienna) more likely mandora. You probably know the two songs with mandoline accompaniment. They are quite lovely. - Original Message - From: EUGENE BRAIG IV To: Arthur Ness Cc: Lute Net Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:06 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:46 am Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar <> I know of at least one depiction of Mozart in the presence of guitar, perhaps soon to play along with a guitarist (Pierre Jelyotte--about whom I know no more than his depiction in a painting--in the painting by Michel Barthelemy Ollivier), and Mozart still wasn't inspired to write for the instrument. ...And I actually like guitar. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Arthur Ness wrote: > That is the painting that Howard mentioned. Pierre Jelyotte (or > Jeliotte) was a singer at the Paris opera (d.1782). No, the one I'm thinking of had Leopold holding a lute-like instrument. But again, it may be a product of my deranged imagination. H To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
In a message dated 8/13/05 10:14:04 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > No, the one I'm thinking of had Leopold holding a lute-like instrument. > =A0 But again, it may be a product of my deranged imagination. > > H > > > > Howard the one with the guitar is Mozart, but there is also one of Haydn holding a lute (I have it here somewhere...). Might this be what you are thinking of? By the way, one of the few composers that Leopold Mozart had any respect for in Milan was mechiore Chiesa who composed a significant amount of lute music. RS -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
You mean the one that Leopold looks like the guy with the pitch fork in American Gothic. Nannerl and Wolfgang are at the keyboard,there is a painting on the wall of the departed mother, and Leopold is leaning his violin on the top of the keyboard instrument. The bow is on the top with his left hand touching it. The violin seems unusually large. Is it a viola? No. Violin. - Original Message - From: Howard Posner Cc: Lute Net Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Arthur Ness wrote: > That is the painting that Howard mentioned. Pierre Jelyotte (or > Jeliotte) was a singer at the Paris opera (d.1782). No, the one I'm thinking of had Leopold holding a lute-like instrument. But again, it may be a product of my deranged imagination. H To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:47:31 -0700 Arthur Ness wrote: >No one would quarrel with the fact that the guitar enjoyed considerable >popularity in Vienna in Beethoven's time. Schubert used the instrument a few >times, including in a birthday cantata for his father. I know of no >documentary evidence that Schubert played guitar. If he did so, >someone would >have made note of that fact. Some one did. The name is Umlauff. But even though the Umlauff story may be apocryphal, there is no question of the existence of several Schubert manuscripts of original guitar music. Check your Deutsch. >The many Schubert Lieder with guitar accompaniment were usually >arrangements by Diabelli, Mertz, Pfeifer, et al. One can imagine >that the publishers would rush guitar versions into print to beat >the competition for lucrative salon sales. Diaballi is right, Mertz is wrong. What Mertz did was arrange for guitar 6 transcriptions of Schubert lieder made for the piano by Franz Liszt. Strictly instrumental, and not directly from Schubert. What Diabelli did is fully listed in my recent publication of the Thematic catalog of the Guitar Works of Anton Diabelli by Jukka Savioki. >I think Brian Jefferey has published some of these >arrangements. Edited by the >late Bob Spencer. Many of you probably know the edition. I happen to know the edition very well, because it was prepared in my house at 341 Commonwealth Ave., in Boston during the year and half that Brian Jeffery lived there. Spencer had nothing to do with this. The editor was Thomas Heck and the material has nothing to do with the period arrangements published in Vienna. All the accompaniments are the product of Thomas Heck's invention. As a matter of fact, when he went back to England, Brian left behind all the original paste up boards for all the editions he prepared in my house. I still have them, and for the life of me, I don't know why I haven't dumped them years ago. Oh yes, I know why. It has this magnificent transparency of a pastoral scene in which Schubert is shown playing the guitar. Brian used it on the cover of his book. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
This is just the kind of nonsense that should be condemned. Are we expected to accept apocryphal stories and a pastel drawing as proof of some historical truth?. This seems to be common practice in the guitar world. But pianists don't have to invent stories, nor do violinists. Just guitarist like Matanya Ophee. The few Schubert works with guitar are well known even to casual music lovers. And I already mentioned them..Can't you read,Ophee? Those few works cannot be used as evidence that Schubert played the instrument. As I indicated, if so, he would have made those lieder arrangements himself. The Bob Spencer edition was published, as Ophee knows perfectly well, by Chanterelle, not Tecla. I really dislike having my words misrepresented. Furthermore the Tecla edition by Tom Heck consists of his own arrangements, not work based on historical examples. It was condemned by Ophee in an irrational diatribe. So why don't you take a rest, Matanya, until you can get your facts down correctly. Take an aspirin, and call us back when you're refreshed and your brain is in gear. - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:47:31 -0700 Arthur Ness wrote: >No one would quarrel with the fact that the guitar enjoyed considerable >popularity in Vienna in Beethoven's time. Schubert used the instrument a few >times, including in a birthday cantata for his father. I know of no >documentary evidence that Schubert played guitar. If he did so, >someone would >have made note of that fact. Some one did. The name is Umlauff. But even though the Umlauff story may be apocryphal, there is no question of the existence of several Schubert manuscripts of original guitar music. Check your Deutsch. >The many Schubert Lieder with guitar accompaniment were usually >arrangements by Diabelli, Mertz, Pfeifer, et al. One can imagine >that the publishers would rush guitar versions into print to beat >the competition for lucrative salon sales. Diaballi is right, Mertz is wrong. What Mertz did was arrange for guitar 6 transcriptions of Schubert lieder made for the piano by Franz Liszt. Strictly instrumental, and not directly from Schubert. What Diabelli did is fully listed in my recent publication of the Thematic catalog of the Guitar Works of Anton Diabelli by Jukka Savioki. >I think Brian Jefferey has published some of these >arrangements. Edited by the >late Bob Spencer. Many of you probably know the edition. I happen to know the edition very well, because it was prepared in my house at 341 Commonwealth Ave., in Boston during the year and half that Brian Jeffery lived there. Spencer had nothing to do with this. The editor was Thomas Heck and the material has nothing to do with the period arrangements published in Vienna. All the accompaniments are the product of Thomas Heck's invention. As a matter of fact, when he went back to England, Brian left behind all the original paste up boards for all the editions he prepared in my house. I still have them, and for the life of me, I don't know why I haven't dumped them years ago. Oh yes, I know why. It has this magnificent transparency of a pastoral scene in which Schubert is shown playing the guitar. Brian used it on the cover of his book. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 06:22 AM 8/14/2005, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >This is just the kind of nonsense that should be condemned. Are we >expected to accept apocryphal stories and a pastel drawing as proof >of some historical truth?. Probably not. But coming from the mouth of one who is so consistent in his discussion of iconography and in more apocryphal stories on lutenists that would feel a large volume, in a forum where iconography and apocryphal stores happens to be some of the major subjects of discussion, I wonder if the left side of your mouth knows what the right side is saying. >The Bob Spencer edition was published, as Ophee knows perfectly >well, by Chanterelle, not Tecla. I really dislike having my words >misrepresented. That's really too bad and I fully sympathize with you. But to refresh your memory, here is what you said: >I think Brian Jefferey has published some of these >arrangements. Edited by the >late Bob Spencer. Many of you probably know the edition. In case you are not quite clear in your understanding of the publishing situation, Brian Jeffery who you mentioned, is the owner of Tecla, not Chanterelle. As for Chanterelle, owned and operated by Michael Macmeeken, they have never published any, and I mean ANY, Schubert songs, arranged or edited by Robert Spencer. This is the result of a search of their on line catalog for Schubert: http://tinyurl.com/9b4l5 All of these editions were published by other publishers, not by Chanterelle, and they only sell them in their mail order business. None of them were edited by Spencer either. The only connection between Schubert, Spencer and Jeffery is the volume of songs Brian published in 1985 http://www.tecla.com/catalog/0044.htm from copies in the Spencer collection. The volume contains exactly three Schubert songs, from a total of 33 songs, and none of them were edited by Bob Spencer, but, as it clearly states on the cover, by Brian Jeffery. All Spencer did is supply the originals. In other words, I have no need to misrepresent your words. You are doing a fine job of it all by yourself. >Furthermore the Tecla edition by Tom Heck consists of his own >arrangements, not work based on historical examples. Isn't that exactly just what I have said? there _must_ be an echo in here. >It was condemned by Ophee in an irrational diatribe. I did? can you remind of when and where? or is this another one of your mysterious hallucinations which come to you often whenever I challenge you to back up your statements with facts? Just let me remind you that you are tottering pretty close to actionable libel. > >So why don't you take a rest, Matanya, until you can get your facts >down correctly. Take an aspirin, and call us back when you're >refreshed and your brain is in gear. Thank you so much for your concern for my health. I truly appreciate it. Perhaps I should repay you in kind, but frankly, I am not qualified to offer assistance in the kind of problems you face. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
- Original Message - From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:57 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar > That is the painting that Howard mentioned. Pierre Jelyotte (or > Jeliotte) was a singer at the Paris opera (d.1782). The painting > done in 1766 depicts the ten-year-old Mozart at the harpsichord > with Jelyotte tuning a large guitar. Yes. I missed the reference earlier. > We just don't have any > record of Mozart having written for guitar, or (inVienna) more > likely mandora. My exact point. > > You probably know the two songs with mandoline accompaniment. > They are quite lovely. Yes. I (and most other clasical mandolinists of the world) play them...and sometimes on a period instrument. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> This is just the kind of nonsense that should be condemned. Are we expected to accept apocryphal stories and a pastel > drawing as proof of some historical truth?. Mo is pictured with a guitar sometimes, it is cerrtainly no proof that _he_ plays it. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 12:51 AM 8/15/2005, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is just the kind of nonsense that should be condemned. Are we >expected to accept apocryphal stories and a pastel > > drawing as proof of some historical truth?. >Mo is pictured with a guitar sometimes, it is cerrtainly no proof that _he_ >plays it. You claim to play the lute, which is also no proof that you actually can play one. My guitar playing is not as good as it used to be, but it is there, warts and all. For example: http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/sokolov.mp3 Now let me hear your lute performance. On the instrument please, not in electronic renditions of your verkakte music. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > This is just the kind of nonsense that should be condemned. Are we > >expected to accept apocryphal stories and a pastel > > > drawing as proof of some historical truth?. > >Mo is pictured with a guitar sometimes, it is cerrtainly no proof that _he_ > >plays it. > > You claim to play the lute, which is also no proof that you actually > can play one. My guitar playing is not as good as it used to be, but > it is there, warts and all. For example: > http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/sokolov.mp3 > Now let me hear your lute performance. On the instrument please, not > in electronic renditions of your verkakte music. http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 10:38 AM 8/15/2005, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > This is just the kind of nonsense that should be condemned. Are we > > >expected to accept apocryphal stories and a pastel > > > > drawing as proof of some historical truth?. > > >Mo is pictured with a guitar sometimes, it is cerrtainly no proof that >_he_ > > >plays it. > > > > You claim to play the lute, which is also no proof that you actually > > can play one. My guitar playing is not as good as it used to be, but > > it is there, warts and all. For example: > > http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/sokolov.mp3 > > Now let me hear your lute performance. On the instrument please, not > > in electronic renditions of your verkakte music. > >http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 Thank you. That's good. Now, do you have something a little more lively so we can tell if you have any chops to speak of? Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 > > > Thank you. That's good. Now, do you have something a little more > lively so we can tell if you have any chops to speak of? > > > Matanya Ophee I don't claim any chops to speak of, but I know my fingerboard. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
> > http://www.polyhymnion.org/tombeau/tombeaux/tom-frob.mp3 > > > Thank you. That's good. Now, do you have something a little more > lively so we can tell if you have any chops to speak of? This has a faster section. http://www.polyhymnion.org/torban/sounds/torban.mp3 RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
