Pegs, revisited
Just to pass on a moment of joy. Tonight I turned a short (6cm shaft) test peg from cocobolo. (The blocks I was able to get are 15" long, so there is a 3" wastage that I'm using for practice). I opened a beer, turned on the TV, and sat with my home made shaper grinding away. As I got the rough peg deeper and deeper into the shaper I noted that at all times I was getting shavings off the full length, right down to the last turn. Never believed it would happen first try. And the peg worked well in a set of test blocks reamed to different widths. Now to see if I can shape the head nicely. The correlary joy came from finding I can get four pegs out of each length of the 1 5/16 square block by halving it then cutting the halves at a mild diagonal. It leaves a flat at the head, but I haven't had a problem with break out. So the three blocks I bought, expecting six pegs per block, will make me 36 pegs - and a number of end pegs. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
Hi Jon, I finished my pegs this weekend. Even a small adjustment to the template on the Vega duplicator seems to make a big difference in how it cuts a peg. I eventually got it adjusted so that the taper of the peg was about right. That plus a less aggressive approach to shaving (the pegs, not me. I already have a beard) made all the difference. Nice to put the little lathe away until next time. After all of this, it did occur to me to wonder if pegs turned out of Delrin stock would be any good. Heresy in terms of historical accuracy, I know. I use little blocks of Delrin as nuts because they're low-friction, and I wonder what would happen if you used the same material for pegs. You can cut, file, and sand Delrin with ordinary woodworking tools. I'll have to try it sometime. Turning a few pegs is fun. Turning 150% of what you need for a 7-course lute (to allow for flaws, later problems, and replacements) gets tedious. It will be nice to start working on the peg box. Once I get that done, I'll be in the home stretch. Just final assembly and finishing. This is when I get anxious to hear what the instrument will sound like. I'm starting to plan how I will do the fingerboard. My previous lutes had solid rosewood fingerboards, but I think I might use strips of rosewood or ebony along the edges and a contrasting wood in the center. The local hardwood dealer sells 1/8 inch thick strips of a number of tropical hardwoods that are apparently cut off of the edges of wider boards. They're quite cheap (a dollar for a five foot length) and, once I run them through my Luthier's Friend, they're perfect for fingerboard edging. Continued good luck with your pegs! Tim On Friday, March 4, 2005, at 10:22 AM, Jon Murphy wrote: > Just to pass on a moment of joy. Tonight I turned a short (6cm shaft) > test > peg from cocobolo. (The blocks I was able to get are 15" long, so > there is a > 3" wastage that I'm using for practice). I opened a beer, turned on > the TV, > and sat with my home made shaper grinding away. As I got the rough peg > deeper and deeper into the shaper I noted that at all times I was > getting > shavings off the full length, right down to the last turn. Never > believed it > would happen first try. And the peg worked well in a set of test blocks > reamed to different widths. Now to see if I can shape the head nicely. > > The correlary joy came from finding I can get four pegs out of each > length > of the 1 5/16 square block by halving it then cutting the halves at a > mild > diagonal. It leaves a flat at the head, but I haven't had a problem > with > break out. So the three blocks I bought, expecting six pegs per block, > will > make me 36 pegs - and a number of end pegs. > > Best, Jon > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Pegs, revisited
Tim, I think you will find that Delrin is too flexible for pegs. They would probably twist along their length as you tried to turn the peg. Craig Craig R. Pierpont Another Era Lutherie www.anotherera.com Timothy Motz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It did occur to me to wonder if pegs turned out of Delrin stock would be any good. Heresy in terms of historical accuracy, I know. I use little blocks of Delrin as nuts because they're low-friction, and I wonder what would happen if you used the same material for pegs. You can cut, file, and sand Delrin with ordinary woodworking tools. I'll have to try it sometime. - Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
>Craig, You and Steve are probably right about both the friction and flexibility. My next thought would be to insert Delrin bushings in the peg head. I'll probably never do it, but I can't resist tinkering with things. The first lute I made had Schaller adjustable-tension violin pegs, which I thought would soften the learning process a bit for the first try. They were plastic and seemed to hold up okay. The adjustable tension feature worked well, but the pegs were much too big and they looked really strange. Plus, since they weren't long enough to go across the width of the peg-head, I had to put a center piece in the head to accept the tips of the pegs. People thought it was clever, but it still looked strange. Tim > > > Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited >Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 05:45:44 -0800 (PST) > >>Tim, >> I think you will find that Delrin is too flexible for pegs. They >would probably twist along their length as you tried to turn the peg. >> >>Craig >> >>Craig R. Pierpont >>Another Era Lutherie >>www.anotherera.com >> >> >>Timothy Motz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>It did occur to me to wonder if pegs turned out of Delrin stock >would >>be any good. Heresy in terms of historical accuracy, I know. I use >>little blocks of Delrin as nuts because they're low-friction, and I >>wonder what would happen if you used the same material for pegs. You > >>can cut, file, and sand Delrin with ordinary woodworking tools. I'll > >>have to try it sometime. >> >> >>- >>Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >>-- >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>
Re: Pegs, revisited
Timothy Motz wrote: "Craig, You and Steve are probably right about both the friction and flexibility. My next thought would be to insert Delrin bushings in the peg head. I'll probably never do it, but I can't resist tinkering with things" I don't understand why the lower friction of the Delrin would be a benefit. If you lower the friction, you just have to push the pegs in harder to get them to hold the string tension. Too little friction leads to too much push, and the cheeks of the pegbox split. David Cameron To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
>David, What I'm curious about is the smoothness of the tuning action. Even with a peg turned, shaved, and polished at the right taper and the peg-holes reamed properly, there is still an issue sometimes with pegs that don't turn smoothly. That can make tuning more of a guess than a precise action, especially if the weather isn't cooperating. If you compare a wooden peg to a good guitar tuning machine, it is both the mechanical advantage of the gears and the greater precision of the action that make the guitar easier to tune (relatively speaking). Musicians playing instruments with wooden pegs use a variety of materials like wax and peg dope to get just the right degree of friction while maintaining smoothness. I'm just curious whether there is a material that would always give the right amount of grab but still allow for a smooth tuning action, no matter what the weather. A very fine instrument built by a real craftsman probably has fewer problems with tuning than the ones I've built for myself. I'm not likely to be able to afford a fine instrument, though, and I still would like one with smooth tuning action. But maybe it's like that joke about how to get to Carnegie Hall -- practice. I understand what you're saying, though. Even short of splitting the cheeks of the pegbox, you can get a jammed peg. As I said, I just like to tinker with things. Tim > > > Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Cameron) >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited >Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:58:48 -0500 > >>Timothy Motz wrote: >> >>"Craig, >>You and Steve are probably right about both the friction and >>flexibility. My next thought would be to insert Delrin bushings in >>the peg head. I'll probably never do it, but I can't resist >>tinkering with things" >> >> >>I don't understand why the lower friction of the Delrin would be a >benefit. >>If you lower the friction, you just have to push the pegs in harder >to get >>them to hold the string tension. Too little friction leads to too >much push, >>and the cheeks of the pegbox split. >> >>David Cameron >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>
Re: Pegs, revisited
Tim, By now you know that I'm an inveterate tinkerer, and have made some on the list think I'm a bit off base. But I agree with the comments on friction and Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the lute, and shouldn't affect the sound. But I don't think I'll use them. I may not be HIP, but I think I'd like to make good pegs that work. And the peg box will be affected by the weather anyway, even if the Delrin isn't. Smooth tuning is a combination of the pegs and the nut (the wound courses may catch a bit). But as the only one here who is playing that "lute" from Musikits (the flatback so denigrated, even though the cittern is flatbacked) I'll add a point. My friend Jerry who designed it didn't know much about pegged strings under tension. The flat back is almost impossible to tune as it has a "peg board" instead of a "peg box". I've learned that in making pegs, and tuning that beast (but it is yet probably the best way for a beginner to decide if they want a real lute). With a single friction hole in the peg board (@ 3/4" thick) the "grab" versus the easy tuning is a matter of pulling the peg out a bit, tuning, then shoving it in - then trying to see if you got it right, and likely doing it again. The peg box of the traditional lute gives friction on both ends of the peg (and preferably a bit more at the wide end to avoid peg breakage). I suggest that there is no material that will give the "right amount of grab" unless the peg box is made of the same material. The Delrin peg won't swell with humidity, but the wooden peg box will. I am too new to this to make a definitive opinon, but my initial reaction would be toward a similar wood, and a careful tapering, for peg and peg box. And with that 3/4" pegboard, and commercial ebony violin pegs, I know from "grab" and "slip". Friction is necessary, and smooth friction is desirable. I hope my pegs will be that. But I wouldn't use to totally different materials to gain that. Delrin is great for saddles and nuts, but I'd question it for pegs. After all, the lute would sound no different if you put guitar mechanisms on it. That which is behind the nut stays there. And what is wrong with a bit of a guess on tuning, it is our ears rather than the exact frequencies recorded by the electronic tuner that hear the sound. I use my tuner for my harp as I need to tune 52 strings, but I use the tuning fork and my ears for the lute. Nothing is perfect, particularly music. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "David Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 4:49 PM Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > >David, > What I'm curious about is the smoothness of the tuning action. Even > with a peg turned, shaved, and polished at the right taper and the > peg-holes reamed properly, there is still an issue sometimes with > pegs that don't turn smoothly. That can make tuning more of a guess > than a precise action, especially if the weather isn't cooperating. > If you compare a wooden peg to a good guitar tuning machine, it is > both the mechanical advantage of the gears and the greater precision > of the action that make the guitar easier to tune (relatively > speaking). > > Musicians playing instruments with wooden pegs use a variety of > materials like wax and peg dope to get just the right degree of > friction while maintaining smoothness. I'm just curious whether > there is a material that would always give the right amount of grab > but still allow for a smooth tuning action, no matter what the > weather. A very fine instrument built by a real craftsman probably > has fewer problems with tuning than the ones I've built for myself. > I'm not likely to be able to afford a fine instrument, though, and I > still would like one with smooth tuning action. But maybe it's like > that joke about how to get to Carnegie Hall -- practice. > > I understand what you're saying, though. Even short of splitting the > cheeks of the pegbox, you can get a jammed peg. > > As I said, I just like to tinker with things. > > Tim > > > > > > > Original Message > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Cameron) > >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > >Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:58:48 -0500 > > > >>Timothy Motz wrote: > >> > >>"Craig, > >>You and Steve are probably right about both the friction and > >>flexibility. My next thought would be to insert Delrin bushings in > >>the peg head. I'll probably never do it, but I can't resist > >>tinkering with things&q
Re: Pegs, revisited
Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I agree with the comments on friction and > Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the lute, and > shouldn't affect the sound. delrin is a bad idea on several grounds, one not yet mentioned, it is soft enough to be subject to surface wear, it will loose its slickness from that wear, and I suspect is just not the right material. It has been around long enough for its properties to have been evaluated by the likes of Martin, Gibson, et al; they arent taking any advantage of it, I think in that lies a clue. Delrin nuts, yes, I see them on the market, but not pegs. We have discussed guitar machine pegs for use on lute before; the opinion reached was weight in the head is a bad idea. > The peg box of the > traditional lute gives friction on both ends of the peg (and preferably a > bit more at the wide end to avoid peg breakage). preferably a fair amount more, if any at all. The peg of a lute is quite thin, it isnt hard to twist it asunder should the small end become jammed while the larger end be free. The small end need only support the length of the peg against the pull of the string, a close, non-binding fit is desirable at the small end from what I understand. Several instruments have used tapered pegs thru a single surface - harps, midieval fiddles, 14c cittern/guitern come to mind. I suspect that flexion of the exposed peg end is more an issue for these than stiff action, and yes, you probably should be loosening the peg on a lute before trying to tighten it anyway; if only to be sure you dont accidently tighten it too far. Several issues when tuning ANY string (piano, lute...). The string has at least two bends in it - at the nut, at the bridge, at hitch pins ... each of these bends will have taken a 'set' if the string is 'settled'. When you adjust the tensino these bends have to be slightly relocated, one has to flatten, another will be formed. If the tension is heavy (piano) this happens fairly quickly, and is helped by a bit of playing. If the tensino is low, it may take a while and perhaps more playing to get the 'kinks' worked out (and in). Each portion of the string will of course need to be at the same tension, friction at the nut and at other places along the string may impede free 'movement' of the string; it helps if one gently strokes the string parts to help equalize this. > I suggest that there is no material that will give the "right amount of > grab" unless the peg box is made of the same material. The Delrin peg won't > swell with humidity, but the wooden peg box will. any non-hygroscopic second material would do for the peg box, it need not be a delrin/delrin mating. Nylon/delrin, or brass/delrin perhaps. In general, for smooth bearings it is desirable to have two different materials, eg, bronze/steel. > lute would sound no different if you put guitar mechanisms on it. this is arguable, the weight of the neck is thought by some to have an effect on the overall sound of the instrument. This beyond the issue of how much weight and torque the players left hand has to manage. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
A good number of years ago a bass violist I played with had some kind of red plastic bushings installed in the peg holes of the tuning head of her viol. I believe the idea was to reduce wear on the pegs and produce a smoother tuning action. It was a costly job, since the peg holes each had to be reamed out several millimeters more (in diameter) to accommodate the bushings. The bushings were rather heavy: a lute tuning head would simply be too slim to accomodate such extra material (IMHO). Regards, Leonard On 3/8/05 1:27 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > >> I agree with the comments on friction and >> Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the lute, and >> shouldn't affect the sound. > > delrin is a bad idea on several grounds, one not yet mentioned, it is soft > enough > to be subject to surface wear, it will loose its slickness from that wear, and > I > suspect is just not the right material. It has been around long enough for > its > properties to have been evaluated by the likes of Martin, Gibson, et al; they > arent taking any advantage of it, I think in that lies a clue. Delrin nuts, > yes, > I see them on the market, but not pegs. > > We have discussed guitar machine pegs for use on lute before; the opinion > reached > was weight in the head is a bad idea. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
Dana, Very informative Dana, thank you. BTW, I'm not sure why I said that the pegbox and the peg wouldn't grab if they were the same material. I was thinking of wood, and as that is (more or less, depending on the wood) hygroscopic then both pegbox and peg will swell and and shrink under the same circumstances. It must have been late when I typed that. I concur as to the different materials for smooth bearings (and have no intent of using anything but wood for my pegbox and pegs). One doesn't want to wear both materials, one wants to wear the easier replaced part. I first met that issue when I bought one of the first Toyotas (car) imported here ( an el cheapo then, but well engineered - they were opening the market). The speedometer broke after only a couple of years. I popped the drive cable and found a nylon gear that was completely worn out. I went to the dealer and complained, he sold me a new gear for a few bucks and explained that it was designed to wear out. After all, if the other gear wore out (the one attached to the drive shaft) one would have to pull the transmission apart to replace it. Better to make the easily accessible gear of wearable material so the internal one would be "forever". I think I'd rather need to make a new peg than replace the pegbox. I haven't chosen the wood for my pegbox yet, but I'll keep that in mind when I do. Your comments solicited. As to the guitar tuning machines, I still don't think they would affect the sound. I can't see the weight of the head having an effect on the resonance. A way to test would be to play an example of each on one's lap like a mountain dulcimer - but where would one find two equal lutes, one with machines and one with pegs. It is irrelevant to me as I'm not considering it - but I might get a chance to experiment. My little charango that I bought from Bolivia for a price I couldn't equal just in buying the wood has guitar machines. The weight in the head is so awful for the balance that I use a saxaphone neck strap to hold up the head. Someday I may try to convert it to pegs, hadn't thought of that before, but it could be fun. It only cost me $60, and the carved body is the beautiful part so fussing with the pegbox wouldn't ruin it. Good point on the kinks at the bend points, but I think it is usually gradual enough in retuning that it is a small factor. But I note you mention "gently stroking the strings" to equalize tension along the string. I wonder if we are thinking of the same thing. Years ago, when I was playing guitar nightly in saloons, I would break a string at the most inconvenient time. Nothing will make a new string hold pitch as it stretches and settles, but my technique to speed the process was to take my thumb and forefinger and make "micro stretches" of the new string by running them up and down the string with rapid squeezes, perhaps a half inch of string stretch between the two fingers. Admittedly I was making local stretches, which should make the string inconsistant over the length - but as I was doing it quickly I was hitting random points and probably made a relatively uniform stretch. Whatever, it worked. I could stretch the string about a half tone with a couple of passes, then tune up. Then repeat as necessary. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
On the question of bushings, these are a standard repair for violins. The ebony will always wear the maple to produce bigger and ultimately irregular holes. The first step, when the pegs are going too deep into the peg box is to ream the holes true, and shave down peg blanks to fit. When the holes are too big to allow new pegs to be shaved, it's time for bushing. The thing is that a frequent choice for bushings is box. This being harder, it will not wear as fast as the maple, and being pale it can be touched in reasonably well to hide it. A more logical choice would be the same wood as the pegs, which would give minimal wear, but if that choice were ebony it would be regarded as unaesthetic. These plastic bushings would seem to be manufactured, which may account for the size problem. Making bushings from an appropriate wood is considerably less complicated than making pegs, and the thickness could be adjusted to suit the pegbox. At a push, they could be considered decorative. Tony - Original Message - From: "Leonard Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Dana Emery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:19 PM Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > A good number of years ago a bass violist I played with had some > kind of red plastic bushings installed in the peg holes of the tuning head > of her viol. I believe the idea was to reduce wear on the pegs and produce > a smoother tuning action. It was a costly job, since the peg holes each had > to be reamed out several millimeters more (in diameter) to accommodate the > bushings. The bushings were rather heavy: a lute tuning head would simply > be too slim to accomodate such extra material (IMHO). > > Regards, > Leonard > > On 3/8/05 1:27 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > >> I agree with the comments on friction and > >> Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the lute, and > >> shouldn't affect the sound. > > > > delrin is a bad idea on several grounds, one not yet mentioned, it is soft > > enough > > to be subject to surface wear, it will loose its slickness from that wear, and > > I > > suspect is just not the right material. It has been around long enough for > > its > > properties to have been evaluated by the likes of Martin, Gibson, et al; they > > arent taking any advantage of it, I think in that lies a clue. Delrin nuts, > > yes, > > I see them on the market, but not pegs. > > > > We have discussed guitar machine pegs for use on lute before; the opinion > > reached > > was weight in the head is a bad idea. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
Re: Pegs, revisited
>My understanding of how an instrument is "bushed' is that a tapering cylinder (essentially a peg without a key) is glued into the peg holes and the excess (the parts that stick outside the peg box and the parts that run between the cheeks inside the box) are cut off. You then have discs glued into the peg holes. Those are smoothed off and the holes re-drilled and reamed. It would be unnecessarily difficult to try to fit discs into peg holes, especially since the thickness of the cheeks can vary. So one could, in theory, take any material that could be turned and shaved to peg dimensions and use that as bushing material -- provided that it could be securely glued. If you wanted plastic bushings (and I understand the explanations that have been offered of why one might not want them), that is how you would do it. Many plastics can be stained, so you could even stain them to match the cheeks. But why anyone would make the bushings red is beyond me. The point would be to make them invisible, so your instrument doesn't look like a old car with mismatched fenders. Tim > > > Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited >Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:45:25 +0100 > >>On the question of bushings, these are a standard repair for >violins. The >>ebony will always wear the maple to produce bigger and ultimately >irregular >>holes. The first step, when the pegs are going too deep into the >peg box is >>to ream the holes true, and shave down peg blanks to fit. When the >holes >>are too big to allow new pegs to be shaved, it's time for bushing. >> >>The thing is that a frequent choice for bushings is box. This being >harder, >>it will not wear as fast as the maple, and being pale it can be >touched in >>reasonably well to hide it. A more logical choice would be the same >wood as >>the pegs, which would give minimal wear, but if that choice were >ebony it >>would be regarded as unaesthetic. >> >>These plastic bushings would seem to be manufactured, which may >account for >>the size problem. Making bushings from an appropriate wood is >considerably >>less complicated than making pegs, and the thickness could be >adjusted to >>suit the pegbox. At a push, they could be considered decorative. >> >>Tony >> >>- Original Message - >>From: "Leonard Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "Dana Emery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:19 PM >>Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited >> >> >>> A good number of years ago a bass violist I played with >had some >>> kind of red plastic bushings installed in the peg holes of the >tuning head >>> of her viol. I believe the idea was to reduce wear on the pegs >and >>produce >>> a smoother tuning action. It was a costly job, since the peg >holes each >>had >>> to be reamed out several millimeters more (in diameter) to >accommodate the >>> bushings. The bushings were rather heavy: a lute tuning head >would simply >>> be too slim to accomodate such extra material (IMHO). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Leonard >>> >>> On 3/8/05 1:27 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >>> > >>> >> I agree with the comments on friction and >>> >> Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the >lute, >>and >>> >> shouldn't affect the sound. >>> > >>> > delrin is a bad idea on several grounds, one not yet mentioned, >it is >>soft >>> > enough >>> > to be subject to surface wear, it will loose its slickness from >that >>wear, and >>> > I >>> > suspect is just not the right material. It has been around long >enough >>for >>> > its >>> > properties to have been evaluated by the likes of Martin, >Gibson, et al; >>they >>> > arent taking any advantage of it, I think in that lies a clue. >Delrin >>nuts, >>> > yes, >>> > I see them on the market, but not pegs. >>> > >>> > We have discussed guitar machine pegs for use on lute before; >the >>opinion >>> > reached >>> > was weight in the head is a bad idea. >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> >> >>
Re: Pegs, revisited
Dear Tim, Your understanding is correct - in fact you almost saw through the bushing, and it breaks off once it is a fit. Likewise for "any material" - the argument for same material would be minimal wear. The argument for red plastic escapes me, but the only thing that I would add is that on brass instruments, especially where a patch is needed, the repairer goes to great effort to make the repair stand out as a feature of excellence, preumably on the grounds that it is impossible to hide. Personally I think that ebony bushings woould look quite smart if the peghole were well centred. I think I'm with you on red plastic, though. Tony >My understanding of how an instrument is "bushed' is that a tapering cylinder (essentially a peg without a key) is glued into the peg holes and the excess (the parts that stick outside the peg box and the parts that run between the cheeks inside the box) are cut off. You then have discs glued into the peg holes. Those are smoothed off and the holes re-drilled and reamed. It would be unnecessarily difficult to try to fit discs into peg holes, especially since the thickness of the cheeks can vary. So one could, in theory, take any material that could be turned and shaved to peg dimensions and use that as bushing material -- provided that it could be securely glued. If you wanted plastic bushings (and I understand the explanations that have been offered of why one might not want them), that is how you would do it. Many plastics can be stained, so you could even stain them to match the cheeks. But why anyone would make the bushings red is beyond me. The point would be to make them invisible, so your instrument doesn't look like a old car with mismatched fenders. Tim > > > Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited >Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:45:25 +0100 > >>On the question of bushings, these are a standard repair for >violins. The >>ebony will always wear the maple to produce bigger and ultimately >irregular >>holes. The first step, when the pegs are going too deep into the >peg box is >>to ream the holes true, and shave down peg blanks to fit. When the >holes >>are too big to allow new pegs to be shaved, it's time for bushing. >> >>The thing is that a frequent choice for bushings is box. This being >harder, >>it will not wear as fast as the maple, and being pale it can be >touched in >>reasonably well to hide it. A more logical choice would be the same >wood as >>the pegs, which would give minimal wear, but if that choice were >ebony it >>would be regarded as unaesthetic. >> >>These plastic bushings would seem to be manufactured, which may >account for >>the size problem. Making bushings from an appropriate wood is >considerably >>less complicated than making pegs, and the thickness could be >adjusted to >>suit the pegbox. At a push, they could be considered decorative. >> >>Tony >> >>- Original Message - >>From: "Leonard Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "Dana Emery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:19 PM >>Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited >> >> >>> A good number of years ago a bass violist I played with >had some >>> kind of red plastic bushings installed in the peg holes of the >tuning head >>> of her viol. I believe the idea was to reduce wear on the pegs >and >>produce >>> a smoother tuning action. It was a costly job, since the peg >holes each >>had >>> to be reamed out several millimeters more (in diameter) to >accommodate the >>> bushings. The bushings were rather heavy: a lute tuning head >would simply >>> be too slim to accomodate such extra material (IMHO). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Leonard >>> >>> On 3/8/05 1:27 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >>> > >>> >> I agree with the comments on friction and >>> >> Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the >lute, >>and >>> >> shouldn't affect the sound. >>> > >>> > delrin is a bad idea on several grounds, one not yet mentioned, >it is >>soft >>> > enough >>> > to be subject to surface wear, it will loose its slickness from >that >>wear, and >>> > I >>> > suspect is just not the right material. It has been around long >enough >>for >>> > its >>> > properties to have been evaluated by the likes of Martin, >Gibson, et al; >>they >>> > arent taking any advantage of it, I think in that lies a clue. >Delrin >>nuts, >>> > yes, >>> > I see them on the market, but not pegs. >>> > >>> > We have discussed guitar machine pegs for use on lute before; >the >>opinion >>> > reached >>> > was weight in the head is a bad idea. >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> >> >>
Re: Pegs, revisited
Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Dana, > > Very informative Dana, thank you. BTW, I'm not sure why I said that the > pegbox and the peg wouldn't grab if they were the same material. The issue, as I understand it, is for the microstructures of each material to be sufficiently different that they dont mesh on a microscope level. Different wood specie, perhaps even different wood orientation might accomplish that. About Nylon, it is a remarkably tough material, easily molded; very suitable for ligh-moderately loaded gears. > I haven't chosen the wood for my pegbox yet, but I'll > keep that in mind when I do. > Your comments solicited. Member, I am but a prentice luthier, an acomplished cabinetmaker, but I have yet to complete my first stringed instrument (looks like its a race between banjo and rebec as to which that will be). There are several far more expereinced builders on this list; Yet, they spend their time making money, lacking a job, I seem to have more time for writing :-(. I would use Beech, yes, common in europe, uncommon in the US; but there are suppliers who import it, I found a couple the last time I did web searches. The lute I am selling has beech cheecks in the pegbox. Beech is a light-colored wood, with a nice but subtle figure; diffuse porous with small pores, and not strongly ringed. Very suitable in its mechanical properties, and the light color goes well with the traditional materials commonly used for lutes. Take pains to get it quarter sawn; tho witht he small sizes involved you mightbe able to resaw that from 5/4 or 8/4 material. > As to the guitar tuning machines, I still don't think they would affect the > sound. I can't see the weight of the head having an effect on the resonance. As I said before, the mass of the neck is thought to have an effect. Consider how the ideal string is presumed to have ideal anchjor points, ones possesing infinite mass. The neck will have some resonance, and the distribution of mass along it will influence the overtones. The shell of a lute is a highly effective resonator, very willing to couple to airborne vibrations (such as the gamba playing next to you). I wouldnt discount the coupling between neck and shell so lightly. > A way to test would be to play an example of each on one's lap like a > mountain dulcimer - but where would one find two equal lutes, one with > machines and one with pegs. it may have been tried in the past, but as a trial one could take a regular lute (one needing a new set of strings), pull its pegs, and use string to attach machine pegs; should be enough to get a sense of how the balance is affected. > Good point on the kinks at the bend points something a piano tuner learns pretty early. That and the pressure welds one gets with steel strings at high tension being stopped by steel pins are a reason why pianos need regular tuning; the longer between tunings the more the thing drifts from its stable and correct position. Often it takes a double tuning to makes things right if the owner has not afforded regular tunings, the first one accomplishes an overall pitch raise and makes possible the second, final tuning to be both accurate and stable. > make "micro stretches" whatever, I dont think it is useful to try to massage as tring to stretch its length out; best to let time and tension do that. However, any manipulation of the string (I simply stretch it gently) will add tension, and should help it to 'jump' past sticktion at the nut, equalizing thi tension on each side of the nut (or the saddle, or some other place where the strings length is deflected). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited
This is the major problem with using ebony for pegs. Ebony is very gritty wood and actually acts like little rat tailed file in making the peg box holes larger. It is my understanding that the original Lutes were pegged with pegs made of fruit wood of sorts stained black to look like Ebony. I have use Pear with good success and am currently using Cherry. Both woods are easy to work with and have the same hardness as the peg box assuming you use Beech for the peg box. Beech is a very stable wood, it is hard and light (just like Cherry), it does not split or check neither is it prone to warping. - Original Message - From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:45 AM Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > On the question of bushings, these are a standard repair for violins. The > ebony will always wear the maple to produce bigger and ultimately irregular > holes. The first step, when the pegs are going too deep into the peg box is > to ream the holes true, and shave down peg blanks to fit. When the holes > are too big to allow new pegs to be shaved, it's time for bushing. > > The thing is that a frequent choice for bushings is box. This being harder, > it will not wear as fast as the maple, and being pale it can be touched in > reasonably well to hide it. A more logical choice would be the same wood as > the pegs, which would give minimal wear, but if that choice were ebony it > would be regarded as unaesthetic. > > These plastic bushings would seem to be manufactured, which may account for > the size problem. Making bushings from an appropriate wood is considerably > less complicated than making pegs, and the thickness could be adjusted to > suit the pegbox. At a push, they could be considered decorative. > > Tony > > - Original Message - > From: "Leonard Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Dana Emery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:19 PM > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > A good number of years ago a bass violist I played with had some > > kind of red plastic bushings installed in the peg holes of the tuning head > > of her viol. I believe the idea was to reduce wear on the pegs and > produce > > a smoother tuning action. It was a costly job, since the peg holes each > had > > to be reamed out several millimeters more (in diameter) to accommodate the > > bushings. The bushings were rather heavy: a lute tuning head would simply > > be too slim to accomodate such extra material (IMHO). > > > > Regards, > > Leonard > > > > On 3/8/05 1:27 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > > > >> I agree with the comments on friction and > > >> Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the lute, > and > > >> shouldn't affect the sound. > > > > > > delrin is a bad idea on several grounds, one not yet mentioned, it is > soft > > > enough > > > to be subject to surface wear, it will loose its slickness from that > wear, and > > > I > > > suspect is just not the right material. It has been around long enough > for > > > its > > > properties to have been evaluated by the likes of Martin, Gibson, et al; > they > > > arent taking any advantage of it, I think in that lies a clue. Delrin > nuts, > > > yes, > > > I see them on the market, but not pegs. > > > > > > We have discussed guitar machine pegs for use on lute before; the > opinion > > > reached > > > was weight in the head is a bad idea. > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > >
Re: Pegs, revisited
To the contrary, ebony is a very smooth wood, it just happens to be way harder than most other woods, and therefore seems more abrasive. The main problem with ebony is that it swells and shrinks more than other woods. I've replaced many flamenco guitar pegs with plum to most guitarist's great joy. Plum for lute pegs is ideal because of the high sugar content which actually makes them a little sticky, and they make the lute sound sweeter. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" ; "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > This is the major problem with using ebony for pegs. Ebony is very gritty > wood and actually acts like little rat tailed file in making the peg box > holes larger. It is my understanding that the original Lutes were pegged > with pegs made of fruit wood of sorts stained black to look like Ebony. I > have use Pear with good success and am currently using Cherry. Both woods > are easy to work with and have the same hardness as the peg box assuming > you use Beech for the peg box. Beech is a very stable wood, it is hard and > light (just like Cherry), it does not split or check neither is it prone to > warping. > - Original Message - > From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:45 AM > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > On the question of bushings, these are a standard repair for violins. The > > ebony will always wear the maple to produce bigger and ultimately > irregular > > holes. The first step, when the pegs are going too deep into the peg box > is > > to ream the holes true, and shave down peg blanks to fit. When the holes > > are too big to allow new pegs to be shaved, it's time for bushing. > > > > The thing is that a frequent choice for bushings is box. This being > harder, > > it will not wear as fast as the maple, and being pale it can be touched in > > reasonably well to hide it. A more logical choice would be the same wood > as > > the pegs, which would give minimal wear, but if that choice were ebony it > > would be regarded as unaesthetic. > > > > These plastic bushings would seem to be manufactured, which may account > for > > the size problem. Making bushings from an appropriate wood is > considerably > > less complicated than making pegs, and the thickness could be adjusted to > > suit the pegbox. At a push, they could be considered decorative. > > > > Tony > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Leonard Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Dana Emery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:19 PM > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > A good number of years ago a bass violist I played with had some > > > kind of red plastic bushings installed in the peg holes of the tuning > head > > > of her viol. I believe the idea was to reduce wear on the pegs and > > produce > > > a smoother tuning action. It was a costly job, since the peg holes each > > had > > > to be reamed out several millimeters more (in diameter) to accommodate > the > > > bushings. The bushings were rather heavy: a lute tuning head would > simply > > > be too slim to accomodate such extra material (IMHO). > > > > > > Regards, > > > Leonard > > > > > > On 3/8/05 1:27 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > > > > > >> I agree with the comments on friction and > > > >> Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the lute, > > and > > > >> shouldn't affect the sound. > > > > > > > > delrin is a bad idea on several grounds, one not yet mentioned, it is > > soft > > > > enough > > > > to be subject to surface wear, it will loose its slickness from that > > wear, and > > > > I > > > > suspect is just not the right material. It has been around long > enough > > for > > > > its > > > > properties to have been evaluated by the likes of Martin, Gibson, et > al; > > they > > > > arent taking any advantage of it, I think in that lies a clue. Delrin > > nuts, > > > > yes, > > > > I see them on the market, but not pegs. > > > > > > > > We have discussed guitar machine pegs for use on lute before; the > > opinion > > > > reached > > > > was weight in the head is a bad idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Pegs, revisited
> This is the major problem with using ebony for pegs. Ebony is very gritty > wood and actually acts like little rat tailed file in making the peg box > holes larger. It is my understanding that the original Lutes were pegged > with pegs made of fruit wood of sorts stained black to look like Ebony. I > have use Pear with good success and am currently using Cherry. Both woods > are easy to work with and have the same hardness as the peg box assuming > you use Beech for the peg box. Beech is a very stable wood, it is hard and > light (just like Cherry), it does not split or check neither is it prone to > warping. Boxes, warping and trees in the same paragraph by Vance make me think of an old dictum: "In the house of a hanged man one must never mention a rope". RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony
>From Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": "The first thing one notices is that historical pegs are not made of ebony! It is widely known today that ebony is a terrible wood for pegs. The wood contains so much silicon that the peg holes are soon worn out and a new set of pegs must be fitted." > -Original Message- > From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:48 PM > To: lute list; Tony Chalkley; Vance Wood > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > To the contrary, ebony is a very smooth wood, it just happens to be way > harder than most other woods, and therefore seems more abrasive. >The main problem with ebony is that it swells and shrinks more than other > woods. I've replaced many flamenco guitar pegs with plum to most > guitarist's great joy. >Plum for lute pegs is ideal because of the high sugar content which > actually makes them a little sticky, and they make the lute sound sweeter. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" ; "Tony Chalkley" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > This is the major problem with using ebony for pegs. Ebony is very gritty > > wood and actually acts like little rat tailed file in making the peg box > > holes larger. It is my understanding that the original Lutes were pegged > > with pegs made of fruit wood of sorts stained black to look like Ebony. I > > have use Pear with good success and am currently using Cherry. Both woods > > are easy to work with and have the same hardness as the peg box assuming > > you use Beech for the peg box. Beech is a very stable wood, it is hard > and > > light (just like Cherry), it does not split or check neither is it prone > to > > warping. > > - Original Message - > > From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:45 AM > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > On the question of bushings, these are a standard repair for violins. > The > > > ebony will always wear the maple to produce bigger and ultimately > > irregular > > > holes. The first step, when the pegs are going too deep into the peg > box > > is > > > to ream the holes true, and shave down peg blanks to fit. When the > holes > > > are too big to allow new pegs to be shaved, it's time for bushing. > > > > > > The thing is that a frequent choice for bushings is box. This being > > harder, > > > it will not wear as fast as the maple, and being pale it can be touched > in > > > reasonably well to hide it. A more logical choice would be the same > wood > > as > > > the pegs, which would give minimal wear, but if that choice were ebony > it > > > would be regarded as unaesthetic. > > > > > > These plastic bushings would seem to be manufactured, which may account > > for > > > the size problem. Making bushings from an appropriate wood is > > considerably > > > less complicated than making pegs, and the thickness could be adjusted > to > > > suit the pegbox. At a push, they could be considered decorative. > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Leonard Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Dana Emery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:19 PM > > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > > > > A good number of years ago a bass violist I played with had > some > > > > kind of red plastic bushings installed in the peg holes of the tuning > > head > > > > of her viol. I believe the idea was to reduce wear on the pegs and > > > produce > > > > a smoother tuning action. It was a costly job, since the peg holes > each > > > had > > > > to be reamed out several millimeters more (in diameter) to accommodate > > the > > > > bushings. The bushings were rather heavy: a lute tuning head would > > simply > > > > be too slim to accomodate such extra material (IMHO). > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Leonard > > > > > > > > On 3/8/05 1:27 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > >
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
>.From Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": ">The first thing one notices is that historical pegs are not >made of ebony! >It is widely known today that ebony is a terrible wood >for pegs. The wood >contains so much silicon that the peg holes are soon >worn out and a new set of >pegs must be fitted." If Lundberg says no Historical Lutes used ebony pegs, how could he then, reach the conclusion that the silicon was responsible for wearing out the peg holes in historical lutes, and a new set of pegs must be fitted? Or could it simply be that hundreds of years of tuning wore them out? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'lute list'" Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 7:55 PM Subject: RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony > From Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": > > "The first thing one notices is that historical pegs are not made of ebony! > It is widely known today that ebony is a terrible wood for pegs. The wood > contains so much silicon that the peg holes are soon worn out and a new set of > pegs must be fitted." > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:48 PM > > To: lute list; Tony Chalkley; Vance Wood > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > To the contrary, ebony is a very smooth wood, it just happens to be way > > harder than most other woods, and therefore seems more abrasive. > >The main problem with ebony is that it swells and shrinks more than other > > woods. I've replaced many flamenco guitar pegs with plum to most > > guitarist's great joy. > >Plum for lute pegs is ideal because of the high sugar content which > > actually makes them a little sticky, and they make the lute sound sweeter. > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "lute list" ; "Tony Chalkley" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:44 PM > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > This is the major problem with using ebony for pegs. Ebony is very gritty > > > wood and actually acts like little rat tailed file in making the peg box > > > holes larger. It is my understanding that the original Lutes were pegged > > > with pegs made of fruit wood of sorts stained black to look like Ebony. I > > > have use Pear with good success and am currently using Cherry. Both woods > > > are easy to work with and have the same hardness as the peg box assuming > > > you use Beech for the peg box. Beech is a very stable wood, it is hard > > and > > > light (just like Cherry), it does not split or check neither is it prone > > to > > > warping. > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:45 AM > > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > > > > On the question of bushings, these are a standard repair for violins. > > The > > > > ebony will always wear the maple to produce bigger and ultimately > > > irregular > > > > holes. The first step, when the pegs are going too deep into the peg > > box > > > is > > > > to ream the holes true, and shave down peg blanks to fit. When the > > holes > > > > are too big to allow new pegs to be shaved, it's time for bushing. > > > > > > > > The thing is that a frequent choice for bushings is box. This being > > > harder, > > > > it will not wear as fast as the maple, and being pale it can be touched > > in > > > > reasonably well to hide it. A more logical choice would be the same > > wood > > > as > > > > the pegs, which would give minimal wear, but if that choice were ebony > > it > > > > would be regarded as unaesthetic. > > > > > > > > These plastic bushings would seem to be manufactured, which may account > > > for > > > > the size problem. Making bushings from an appropriate wood is > > > considerably > > > > less complicated than making pegs, and the thickness could be adjusted > > to > > > > suit the pegbox. At a push, they could be considered decorative. > > > > > > > > Tony > &
RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony
He did not reach that conclusion. He states that ebony wasn't used on historical lutes. The second and third sentences of the quote refer to the modern world. In other words, if you built a lute today, you would know that ebony is a terrible wood ( due to its high silica content) to use for pegs because they'd wear out quickly and you'd have to fit another set. > -Original Message- > From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 10:38 PM > To: 'lute list'; Garry Bryan > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > >.From Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": > > ">The first thing one notices is that historical pegs are not >made of > ebony! > >It is widely known today that ebony is a terrible wood >for pegs. The wood > >contains so much silicon that the peg holes are soon >worn out and a new > set of > >pegs must be fitted." > > If Lundberg says no Historical Lutes used ebony pegs, how could he then, > reach the conclusion that the silicon was responsible for wearing out the > peg holes in historical lutes, and a new set of pegs must be fitted? > Or could it simply be that hundreds of years of tuning wore them out? > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'lute list'" > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 7:55 PM > Subject: RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > > > From Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": > > > > "The first thing one notices is that historical pegs are not made of > ebony! > > It is widely known today that ebony is a terrible wood for pegs. The wood > > contains so much silicon that the peg holes are soon worn out and a new > set of > > pegs must be fitted." > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:48 PM > > > To: lute list; Tony Chalkley; Vance Wood > > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > To the contrary, ebony is a very smooth wood, it just happens to be way > > > harder than most other woods, and therefore seems more abrasive. > > >The main problem with ebony is that it swells and shrinks more than > other > > > woods. I've replaced many flamenco guitar pegs with plum to most > > > guitarist's great joy. > > >Plum for lute pegs is ideal because of the high sugar content which > > > actually makes them a little sticky, and they make the lute sound > sweeter. > > > Michael Thames > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "lute list" ; "Tony Chalkley" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:44 PM > > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > > > > This is the major problem with using ebony for pegs. Ebony is very > gritty > > > > wood and actually acts like little rat tailed file in making the peg > box > > > > holes larger. It is my understanding that the original Lutes were > pegged > > > > with pegs made of fruit wood of sorts stained black to look like > Ebony. I > > > > have use Pear with good success and am currently using Cherry. Both > woods > > > > are easy to work with and have the same hardness as the peg box > assuming > > > > you use Beech for the peg box. Beech is a very stable wood, it is > hard > > > and > > > > light (just like Cherry), it does not split or check neither is it > prone > > > to > > > > warping. > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: "Tony Chalkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:45 AM > > > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the question of bushings, these are a standard repair for > violins. > > > The > > > > > ebony will always wear the maple to produce bigger and ultimately > > > > irregular > > > > > holes. The first step, when the pegs are going too deep into the > peg > > > box > > > > is > > > > > to ream the holes true, and shave down peg blanks to fit. When the > > >
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
Certain hardwoods, especially some species of oak, contain fairly high c= oncentrations of crystalline silica (not silicon, nothing to do with = computer chip wafer fabrication!). Higher concentrations can be hazar= dous to health in dust, and very hard on plane blades. I think only s= ome ebony, certainly not most, also has this problem, but I don't know wher= e in the world high-silica ebony comes from. Peter - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames" To: "'lute list'" , "Ga= rry Bryan" Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:37:30 -0700 > > > .From Rob= ert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": > > ">The f= irst thing one notices is that historical pegs are not >made of >= ebony! > > It is widely known today that ebony is a terrible woo= d >for pegs. The wood > > contains so much silicon that the pe= g holes are soon >worn out and a new > set of > > pegs = must be fitted." > > If Lundberg says no Historical Lutes use= d ebony pegs, how could he then, > reach the conclusion that the sil= icon was responsible for wearing out the > peg holes in historical l= utes, and a new set of pegs must be fitted? > Or could it simply be = that hundreds of years of tuning wore them out? > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - = > From: "Garry Bryan" > To: "'lute list'= " > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 7:55 PM <= BR>> Subject: RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > > >= ; From Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": > > = > > "The first thing one notices is that historical pegs are not made= of > ebony! > > It is widely known today that ebony is a = terrible wood for pegs. The wood > > contains so much silicon tha= t the peg holes are soon worn out and a new > set of > > p= egs must be fitted." > > > > > --=20 ___ Sign-up f= or Ads Free at Mail.com [1]http://www.mail.com/?sr=3Dsignup References 1. 3D"http://mail01.mail.com/scripts/payment/adtracking.cgi?bannercode= To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
> Certain hardwoods, especially some species of oak, contain fairly high c= > oncentrations of crystalline silica (not silicon, nothing to do with = > computer chip wafer fabrication!). Higher concentrations can be hazar= dous > to health in dust, and very hard on plane blades. I think only s= ome > ebony, certainly not most, also has this problem, but I don't know wher= e > in the world high-silica ebony comes from. > > Peter > - Original Message - Silica is the oxide of silicon, no silica without silicon.And "silicon" may have been used deliberately , to include silicates. David Cameron To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
Garry, I highly doubt that the silica in ebony pegs, or for that matter probably in most hardwoods, is the reason for ebony not being fashionable in lutes, or that historical lute makers even had the foresight to imagine it was bad for lutes. It has much more to do with the fact that ebony is highly unstable. I think most of us are familiar with peg paste used today. I'm not sure of the ingredients, but it seems to have some sort of abrasive in it, yet that doesn't stop people from using it. Actually I can't imagine not using it. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'lute list'" Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:50 PM Subject: RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony > He did not reach that conclusion. > > He states that ebony wasn't used on historical lutes. > > The second and third sentences of the quote refer to the modern world. > > In other words, if you built a lute today, you would know that ebony is a > terrible wood ( due to its high silica content) to use for pegs because they'd > wear out quickly and you'd have to fit another set. > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 10:38 PM > > To: 'lute list'; Garry Bryan > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > > > >.From Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": > > > > ">The first thing one notices is that historical pegs are not >made of > > ebony! > > >It is widely known today that ebony is a terrible wood >for pegs. The wood > > >contains so much silicon that the peg holes are soon >worn out and a new > > set of > > >pegs must be fitted." > > > > If Lundberg says no Historical Lutes used ebony pegs, how could he then, > > reach the conclusion that the silicon was responsible for wearing out the > > peg holes in historical lutes, and a new set of pegs must be fitted? > > Or could it simply be that hundreds of years of tuning wore them out? > > Michael Thames > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > - Original Message - > > From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'lute list'" > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 7:55 PM > > Subject: RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > > > > > > From Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction": > > > > > > "The first thing one notices is that historical pegs are not made of > > ebony! > > > It is widely known today that ebony is a terrible wood for pegs. The wood > > > contains so much silicon that the peg holes are soon worn out and a new > > set of > > > pegs must be fitted." > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > > From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:48 PM > > > > To: lute list; Tony Chalkley; Vance Wood > > > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > > To the contrary, ebony is a very smooth wood, it just happens to be way > > > > harder than most other woods, and therefore seems more abrasive. > > > >The main problem with ebony is that it swells and shrinks more than > > other > > > > woods. I've replaced many flamenco guitar pegs with plum to most > > > > guitarist's great joy. > > > >Plum for lute pegs is ideal because of the high sugar content which > > > > actually makes them a little sticky, and they make the lute sound > > sweeter. > > > > Michael Thames > > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "lute list" ; "Tony Chalkley" > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:44 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the major problem with using ebony for pegs. Ebony is very > > gritty > > > > > wood and actually acts like little rat tailed file in making the peg > > box > > > > > holes larger. It is my understanding that the original Lutes were > > pegged > > > > > with pegs made of fruit wood of sorts stained black to look like > > Ebony. I > > > > > have use Pear with good s
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
Peter, With David I point out that silica (SiO2) is the oxide of the element silicon, and add that the silicon chips of Silicon Valley aren't actually pure silicon (in the late '40s my father, a researcher in solid state physics at Bell Labs, sent out an internal memo speculating on the possibilities of a P/N junction in doped crystals. He was working with quartz which was too stable, but Schockley's team was working with germanium. Nine months after his memo they came up with the germanium transistor. He couldn't prove that the idea came from his memo - but that is the way the Labs worked). OK, done my little paean to my late father, back to silicon. You wonder where the high silica ebony might come from. How about anywhere near a beach. Beach sand is basically silica. But it could also come from a higher area under a geological upthrust. Sandstone is also heavily silica, and some things that were beaches in geological history are now mountains overlying forests. The leeching of the silica into the water supply would bring it up into the wood. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
OK, I've read all the messages in the thread and yet have a confusion. A confusion about what is desirable. (Note my earlier comment on the intentionally wearable nylon gear in the speedometer). Why would a luthier want to have the inevitable wear between peg and peg holes be either random or in the peg box? I note the comments on violin bushings inserted to repair the peg head. I would think that the design would be for the peg to wear out rather than the hole enlarge. Admittedly, in the short term, if the hole wears the peg can be inserted deeper, but in the long term the peg box, peg head, is more difficult to fix than making a new peg. This isn't a critical comment, it is a real question. The old masters of violin and lute construction must have had a reason to make the pegs as hard as the peg box, or harder. But I don't see the logic. Remember the 1890s poem about the One Horse Shay - it was built so no part was weaker than any other part, and it lasted and lasted with no repairs, until one day they all failed at once and it fell into dust. I would think that the peg should be just a bit softer than the peg hole - hard enough to not break, but soft enough so the wear would be on the easily replaceable part. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony
Michael (and others). I only provided the information because I had the Lundberg book handy and a few minutes to type the information from it into an e-mail message. Interpret that information any way you like. Disregard it if it suits you. While I felt that the quote I provided might be relevant to your discussion, I did not express an opinion on the subject (or the quote),so please stop barking up my tree; it's not the right one. I don't care if you use ebony, boxwood, copper beryllium or the bones of Michielle Harton to make your pegs. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
>While I felt that the quote I provided might be relevant >to your discussion, I >did not express an opinion on the subject (or the >quote),so please stop barking >up my tree; it's not the right one. >I don't care if you use ebony, boxwood, copper >beryllium or the bones of >Michielle Harton to make your pegs. Not to bark too much more, but bone makes a great peg! Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'lute list'" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:26 AM Subject: RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony > Michael (and others). > > > I only provided the information because I had the Lundberg book handy and a few > minutes to type the information from it into an e-mail message. Interpret that > information any way you like. > > Disregard it if it suits you. > > While I felt that the quote I provided might be relevant to your discussion, I > did not express an opinion on the subject (or the quote),so please stop barking > up my tree; it's not the right one. > > I don't care if you use ebony, boxwood, copper beryllium or the bones of > Michielle Harton to make your pegs. > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
I have a guitar made at the turn of the 19th century with original bone pegs, Everyone who plays this guitar comments on how smooth and accurate the pegs are. I also have a customer who wants bone pegs for his 13 course lute. Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough to make pegs from? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'lute list'" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:26 AM Subject: RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony > Michael (and others). > > > I only provided the information because I had the Lundberg book handy and a few > minutes to type the information from it into an e-mail message. Interpret that > information any way you like. > > Disregard it if it suits you. > > While I felt that the quote I provided might be relevant to your discussion, I > did not express an opinion on the subject (or the quote),so please stop barking > up my tree; it's not the right one. > > I don't care if you use ebony, boxwood, copper beryllium or the bones of > Michielle Harton to make your pegs. > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
> Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough to make pegs from? At the risk of sounding facetious - a butcher? It stinks enough when you file a bone nut, so God knows what it would be like on a lathe. I've just tried to find out what Sacconi says about pegs in his book on Stradivarius. The answer is - nothing. The only mention is in the 'Catalogue of Stradivarian relics in Cremona', which houses: "9 tuning pegs in an unfinished state made in jujube wood (species of zizyphus, equivalent to buckthorn)..." "Two tuning pegs in pear wood in an unfinished state one with a ferrule and button of ivory, the other tinted black" As Jon said, the modern choice of the harder material for the disposable bit does seem odd. It also seems odd that the efforts made at the time being directed towards lightness in the fingerboard and tailpiece a heavy wood would be added for the pegs. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
Butchers and petshops (though not the bones of Michielle Harton, which s= hould be regarded as holy relicsl). Bone from butchers is free, but petshop= s have done all of the foul-smelling boiling etc. for you... whic= h is probably worth the added cost. Peter - Original Message - From: "Michael Thames"= To: "'lute list'" ,= "Garry Bryan" Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebon= y Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:31:28 -0700 > > I have a = guitar made at the turn of the 19th century with original bone > peg= s, Everyone who plays this guitar comments on how smooth and accurate &= gt; the pegs are. I also have a customer who wants bone pegs for his 13 cou= rse > lute. > Anyone out there know a source for bone large e= nough to make pegs from? > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassic= alGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Garry B= ryan" > To: "'lute list'" > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:26 AM > Subject: RE: Peg= s, revisited - ebony > > > > Michael (and others). = > > > > > > I only provided the information b= ecause I had the Lundberg book handy and > a few > > minut= es to type the information from it into an e-mail message. Interpret &g= t; that > > information any way you like. > > > = > Disregard it if it suits you. > > > > While I felt= that the quote I provided might be relevant to your > discussion, I= > > did not express an opinion on the subject (or the quote),so = please stop > barking > > up my tree; it's not the right o= ne. > > > > I don't care if you use ebony, boxwood, cop= per beryllium or the bones of > > Michielle Harton to make your p= egs. > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > To ge= t on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.d= artmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > --=20 ___ Sign-up f= or Ads Free at Mail.com [1]http://www.mail.com/?sr=3Dsignup References 1. 3D"http://mail01.mail.com/scripts/payment/adtracking.cgi?bannercode= To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
>Don't look at me, I need all of mine! > > > Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony >Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:31:28 -0700 > >> I have a guitar made at the turn of the 19th century with >original bone >>pegs, Everyone who plays this guitar comments on how smooth and >accurate >>the pegs are. I also have a customer who wants bone pegs for his 13 >course >>lute. >> Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough to make pegs >from? >>Michael Thames >>www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >>- Original Message - >>From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "'lute list'" >>Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:26 AM >>Subject: RE: Pegs, revisited - ebony >> >> >>> Michael (and others). >>> >>> >>> I only provided the information because I had the Lundberg book >handy and >>a few >>> minutes to type the information from it into an e-mail message. >Interpret >>that >>> information any way you like. >>> >>> Disregard it if it suits you. >>> >>> While I felt that the quote I provided might be relevant to your >>discussion, I >>> did not express an opinion on the subject (or the quote),so please >stop >>barking >>> up my tree; it's not the right one. >>> >>> I don't care if you use ebony, boxwood, copper beryllium or the >bones of >>> Michielle Harton to make your pegs. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> >> >>
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
> Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough to make pegs from? Yes. Matanya. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
> Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough >to make pegs from? >Yes. Matanya. >RT To enshrine him in a lute. Maybe he can donate something to make strings from too. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough to make pegs from? > Yes. Matanya. > RT > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
bitch ;-) - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 7:55 PM Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough to make pegs from? > Yes. Matanya. > RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
>> Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough >to make pegs from? >> Yes. Matanya. >> RT > To enshrine him in a lute. Maybe he can donate something to make strings > from too. No doubt. He has plenty of nerve. RT > > >>> Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough to make pegs from? >> Yes. Matanya. >> RT >> >> > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
I will ask Baldock to hurry inventing neurolines. danyel - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony > >> Anyone out there know a source for bone large enough >to make pegs from? > >> Yes. Matanya. > >> RT > > To enshrine him in a lute. Maybe he can donate something to make strings > > from too. > No doubt. He has plenty of nerve. > RT > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
Somehow in the raucous banter on the thread my original question got lost, except for Tony as quoted below. > As Jon said, the modern choice of the harder material for the disposable bit > does seem odd. It also seems odd that the efforts made at the time being > directed towards lightness in the fingerboard and tailpiece a heavy wood > would be added for the pegs. Is there a logical reason, aside from the pure question of the strength of the peg, to make the replaceable peg of a harder substance than the peg box - which is a part of the lute/violin whatever. I'll give a possible answer to my question, playing off Tony's comments. (Noting on the side that weight isn't always definer of wear hardness in woods, one can have more cellular cohesion in a slightly less dense wood, but tha is the exception). The strength/density of the peg wood is a required value, it must be enough to hold the tension of the strings (at the extreme, balsa wood would be light, but would break at the first sign of tension). So perhaps the old boys chose their peg woods for the strength of the peg, and their peg box woods for the lightness (within reason) of the weight at the head end of the instrument. After all, the volume of the pegs is far less than the volume of the pegbox, so the density of the pegbox would contribute more total weight than the density of the pegs. OOPS, just to show I'm always learning. I always figured that the back angled pegbox of the lute was to keep the lutenist from knocking the flute players instrument by sticking out too far . Of course, it reduces the mechanical moment, and therefore the effective weight of the head. I'm sure you all knew that, but the best way for me to learn is to figure it out for myself. So the question remains, other than that a lighter wood for the pegbox would reduce the headweight (as I suggest above) is there any other logical reason to use a "softer wood" for the pegbox than the peg. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony
>Jon, In addition to reducing the mechanical moment (I haven't used that phrase since high school physics class), the angled peg head makes it easier for the peg head to bear the tension of the strings. If the peg head was straight out, as in a guitar, there would be tremendous pull from the strings that would tend to flip the peg head up. By angling it back and locking it in place with the angled cut on the back of the neck (almost like one half of a dovetail), most of the tension serves to hold the nut in place (useful), and less is transmitted to the peghead/neck joint. The only reasons I can think of (other than the ones you suggest) for the peg wood being harder than the cheeks of the peghead are: If the pegs were softer, the peg hole would tend to grind a collar into the peg. With the peg under constant tension from the string, this would make it difficult to move the peg in or out for tuning. Perhaps the harder woods stand up better to the torsional stress from twisting the pegs. Those would be my guesses. Tim > > > Original Message >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: Re: Pegs, revisited - ebony >Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:36:50 -0500 > >>Somehow in the raucous banter on the thread my original question got >lost, >>except for Tony as quoted below. >> >>> As Jon said, the modern choice of the harder material for the >disposable >>bit >>> does seem odd. It also seems odd that the efforts made at the >time being >>> directed towards lightness in the fingerboard and tailpiece a >heavy wood >>> would be added for the pegs. >> >>Is there a logical reason, aside from the pure question of the >strength of >>the peg, to make the replaceable peg of a harder substance than the >peg >>box - which is a part of the lute/violin whatever. >> >>I'll give a possible answer to my question, playing off Tony's >comments. >>(Noting on the side that weight isn't always definer of wear >hardness in >>woods, one can have more cellular cohesion in a slightly less dense >wood, >>but tha is the exception). The strength/density of the peg wood is a >>required value, it must be enough to hold the tension of the strings >(at the >>extreme, balsa wood would be light, but would break at the first >sign of >>tension). So perhaps the old boys chose their peg woods for the >strength of >>the peg, and their peg box woods for the lightness (within reason) >of the >>weight at the head end of the instrument. After all, the volume of >the pegs >>is far less than the volume of the pegbox, so the density of the >pegbox >>would contribute more total weight than the density of the pegs. >> >>OOPS, just to show I'm always learning. I always figured that the >back >>angled pegbox of the lute was to keep the lutenist from knocking the >flute >>players instrument by sticking out too far . Of course, it >reduces the >>mechanical moment, and therefore the effective weight of the head. >I'm sure >>you all knew that, but the best way for me to learn is to figure it >out for >>myself. >> >>So the question remains, other than that a lighter wood for the >pegbox would >>reduce the headweight (as I suggest above) is there any other >logical reason >>to use a "softer wood" for the pegbox than the peg. >> >>Best, Jon >> >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>
Re: Pegs, revisited - peg dope
> that doesn't stop people from using it. Actually I can't imagine not using
> it.
I do occasionally use chalk powder ('baby powder') on troublesome pegs.
David
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Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony
> >Jon, >In addition to reducing the mechanical moment (I haven't used that >phrase since high school physics class), the angled peg head makes it >easier for the peg head to bear the tension of the strings. If the >peg head was straight out, as in a guitar, there would be tremendous >pull from the strings that would tend to flip the peg head up. By >angling it back and locking it in place with the angled cut on the >back of the neck (almost like one half of a dovetail), most of the >tension serves to hold the nut in place (useful), and less is >transmitted to the peghead/neck joint. That's the best explanation I've heard yet as to why the peg box of a lute bends back. When asked why the peg box is bent back, I usually reply so that it will fit in the lute case. Of course one then wants to ask what about theorbos, swan necks and archlutes? I still don't have one of those instruments but I would answer that theorbos are single strung and that there is mounting evidence of fairly low tension on Baroque instruments. Archlutes? You tell me. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony
This is explanation is a good start but it is incomplete because it did not name the fundamental principle behind the design. The main term is "mechanical advantage." I suppose if you wanted to analyze the force distribution, you could define a "mechanical moment" as the force analog of a moment of a mass (or charge) distribution. The main idea here, as you know, is to decrese the force pulling the pegbox toward the bridge. The mechanical advantage is the ratio of the force that performs useful work of a machine to the force that is applied to the machine. The mechanical advantage that the angle offers is similar to the mechanical advantage of a pulley or a lever. The nut acts as the pivot point or fulcrum. Maybe a luthier can tell us the exact formula. However, I suspect that the formula for the force reduction is not linear but depends on the sine of the angle. The tension holding the nut in place is convenient because it allows a quick change of different nuts without having to bother about glue. Cases are made to fit instruments. Instruments are not ordinarily made with the idea that they will fit into existing cases. In the case of swan neck lutes over time, the strings will pull the pegs toward the nut particular on the burdons. You will see an unven distribution of string heights above the rose. I don't know about other instruments but I would not doubt that something similar happens to them as well. The advantage of the angular peg box is that you avoid the uneven string height. The disadvantage is, as has been mentioned before, you have to put up with the strings getting caught on the nut and consequently, the non-linear tuning feature, which is actually the worst thing about the peg box design. Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mar 11, 2005 10:52 PM To: timothy motz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute list Subject: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony > >Jon, >In addition to reducing the mechanical moment (I haven't used that >phrase since high school physics class), the angled peg head makes it >easier for the peg head to bear the tension of the strings. If the >peg head was straight out, as in a guitar, there would be tremendous >pull from the strings that would tend to flip the peg head up. By >angling it back and locking it in place with the angled cut on the >back of the neck (almost like one half of a dovetail), most of the >tension serves to hold the nut in place (useful), and less is >transmitted to the peghead/neck joint. That's the best explanation I've heard yet as to why the peg box of a lute bends back. When asked why the peg box is bent back, I usually reply so that it will fit in the lute case. Of course one then wants to ask what about theorbos, swan necks and archlutes? I still don't have one of those instruments but I would answer that theorbos are single strung and that there is mounting evidence of fairly low tension on Baroque instruments. Archlutes? You tell me. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony
>. The main idea here, as you know, >is to decrees the force pulling the pegbox toward the >bridge As in most things in life one sacrifices one thing for another. Pushing straight up on a small rebate cut into the neck, or straight down on the neck both work in either case. >The tension holding the nut in place is convenient >because it >allows a quick change of different nuts without having to >bother >about glue I makes no difference about the angle. a swan neck nut stays in place just fine as does a guitar etc. >In the case of swan neck lutes over time, the strings will >pull the pegs toward the nut particular on the burdons. >You >will see an uneven distribution of string heights above the >rose This is actually desirable. If you have any experience playing swan neck lutes. On any instrument made on the planet earth there are distortions and tension in every part a maker has to deal with, not just the neck and pegbox. The neck will pull forward the pegbox will pull as well, but a good maker combined with the right weather conditions can compensate for this. I think personally that the 90 degree angle has more to do with tradition rather than practicality, however in this case both have come together to create a very workable situation. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: Re: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony > This is explanation is a good start but it is incomplete because > it did not name the fundamental principle behind the design. > The main term is "mechanical advantage." I suppose > if you wanted to analyze the force distribution, you could define > a "mechanical moment" as the force analog of a moment of a > mass (or charge) distribution. The main idea here, as you know, > is to decrese the force pulling the pegbox toward the bridge. > > The mechanical advantage is the ratio of the force that performs > useful work of a machine to the force that is applied to the machine. > The mechanical advantage that the angle offers is similar to the > mechanical advantage of a pulley or a lever. The nut acts as the > pivot point or fulcrum. Maybe a luthier can tell us the exact formula. > However, I suspect that the formula for the force reduction is not > linear but depends on the sine of the angle. > > The tension holding the nut in place is convenient because it > allows a quick change of different nuts without having to bother > about glue. > > Cases are made to fit instruments. Instruments are not > ordinarily made with the idea that they will fit into existing > cases. > > In the case of swan neck lutes over time, the strings will > pull the pegs toward the nut particular on the burdons. You > will see an unven distribution of string heights above the > rose. I don't know about other instruments but I would not > doubt that something similar happens to them as well. > The advantage of the angular peg box is that you avoid > the uneven string height. The disadvantage is, as has > been mentioned before, you have to put up with the > strings getting caught on the nut and consequently, > the non-linear tuning feature, which is actually the worst > thing about the peg box design. > > Cheers, > Marion > > -Original Message- > From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Mar 11, 2005 10:52 PM > To: timothy motz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute list > Subject: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > > >Jon, > >In addition to reducing the mechanical moment (I haven't used that > >phrase since high school physics class), the angled peg head makes it > >easier for the peg head to bear the tension of the strings. If the > >peg head was straight out, as in a guitar, there would be tremendous > >pull from the strings that would tend to flip the peg head up. By > >angling it back and locking it in place with the angled cut on the > >back of the neck (almost like one half of a dovetail), most of the > >tension serves to hold the nut in place (useful), and less is > >transmitted to the peghead/neck joint. > > That's the best explanation I've heard yet as to why the peg box of a > lute bends back. When asked why the peg box is bent back, I usually > reply so that it will fit in the lute case. > > Of course one then wants to ask what about theorbos, swan necks and > archlutes? I still don't have one of those instruments but I would > answer that theorbos are single strung and that there is mounting > evidence of fairly low tension on Baroque instruments. Archlutes? You > tell me. > > cheers, > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
Re: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony
>The tension holding the nut in place is convenient >because it >allows a quick change of different nuts without having to bother >about glue I makes no difference about the angle. a swan neck nut stays in place just fine as does a guitar etc. ++I agree with this and did not mean to imply otherwise. It is the total tension on the nut that holds it in place, not the angle. It works with any angle. The difference in the angle is that, according to my experience, fewer problems occur with non-linear tuning in instruments with straight necks. This may be related to the total area on the nut that contacts the strings. The nut of a pegbox lute has a larger surface area in general under the string and there are more ways for strings to "catch" on the nut. Turning the peg by X degrees may produce no difference in pitch. Turn the peg by X/2 degrees and you may notice a considerable pitch difference. Methods to lessen this effect not withstanding, this is one of the disadvantages of bent necks. To get an advantage in one area, often one must give up something in another. >In the case of swan neck lutes over time, the strings will >pull the pegs toward the nut particular on the burdons. >You >will see an uneven distribution of string heights above the >rose This is actually desirable. If you have any experience playing swan neck lutes. ++Yes, I am happy to say that I have a swan neck lute with this added feature. Not everyone likes it but it is nice to know that others have found something good about it. The uneven distribution allows me to find the lowest four courses more easily. Is this your experience also? (It has been suggested as a joke on another list to color code the strings. Maybe this is the only thing you can do on bass rider lutes. :) that lack the swan neck advantage.) On any instrument made on the planet earth there are distortions and tension in every part a maker has to deal with, not just the neck and pegbox. The neck will pull forward the pegbox will pull as well, but a good maker combined with the right weather conditions can compensate for this. I think personally that the 90 degree angle has more to do with tradition rather than practicality, however in this case both have come together to create a very workable situation. ++Not only 90 degrees but other angles less than 90 have been used. In my opinion, the pegbox angles were introduced first as a matter of practicality. Many, if not all, traditions began as a some sort of innovation. We continue to use them as a matter of tradition in order to have historically correct instruments. Of course we can enjoy the advantages of the design as well. Best regards, Marion Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: Re: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony > This is explanation is a good start but it is incomplete because > it did not name the fundamental principle behind the design. > The main term is "mechanical advantage." I suppose > if you wanted to analyze the force distribution, you could define > a "mechanical moment" as the force analog of a moment of a > mass (or charge) distribution. The main idea here, as you know, > is to decrese the force pulling the pegbox toward the bridge. > > The mechanical advantage is the ratio of the force that performs > useful work of a machine to the force that is applied to the machine. > The mechanical advantage that the angle offers is similar to the > mechanical advantage of a pulley or a lever. The nut acts as the > pivot point or fulcrum. Maybe a luthier can tell us the exact formula. > However, I suspect that the formula for the force reduction is not > linear but depends on the sine of the angle. > > The tension holding the nut in place is convenient because it > allows a quick change of different nuts without having to bother > about glue. > > Cases are made to fit instruments. Instruments are not > ordinarily made with the idea that they will fit into existing > cases. > > In the case of swan neck lutes over time, the strings will > pull the pegs toward the nut particular on the burdons. You > will see an unven distribution of string heights above the > rose. I don't know about other instruments but I would not > doubt that something similar happens to them as well. > The advantage of the angular peg box is that you avoid > the uneven string height. The disadvantage is, as has > been mentioned before, you have to put up with the > strings getting caught on the nut and consequently, > the non-linear tuning feature, which is actually the worst > th
Re: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony
> The difference in the angle is that, according to my >experience, >fewer problems occur with non-linear tuning in >instruments with straight >necks Absolutely, especially in the case of 13 courses, after messing around for a decade or two, with the rickety bent back pegbox, they finally figured it out, and arrived at perfection. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "timothy motz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > >The tension holding the nut in place is convenient >because it > >allows a quick change of different nuts without having to bother > >about glue > >I makes no difference about the angle. a swan neck nut stays in place > just fine as does a guitar etc. > > ++I agree with this and did not mean to imply otherwise. It is the > total tension on the nut that holds it in place, not the angle. It works with > any angle. The difference in the angle is that, according to my experience, > fewer problems occur with non-linear tuning in instruments with straight > necks. This may be related to the total area on the nut that contacts the > strings. The nut of a pegbox lute has a larger surface area in general > under the string and there are more ways for strings to "catch" on the > nut. Turning the peg by X degrees may produce no difference in pitch. > Turn the peg by X/2 degrees and you may notice a considerable pitch > difference. Methods to lessen this effect not withstanding, this is one of > the disadvantages of bent necks. To get an advantage in one area, often > one must give up something in another. > > > >In the case of swan neck lutes over time, the strings will > >pull the pegs toward the nut particular on the burdons. >You > >will see an uneven distribution of string heights above the > >rose > > This is actually desirable. If you have any experience playing swan > neck lutes. > > ++Yes, I am happy to say that I have a swan neck lute with this > added feature. Not everyone likes it but it is nice to know that others > have found something good about it. The uneven distribution allows > me to find the lowest four courses more easily. Is this your experience > also? (It has been suggested as a joke on another list to color code the > strings. Maybe this is the only thing you can do on bass rider lutes. :) > that lack the swan neck advantage.) > > On any instrument made on the planet earth there are distortions and > tension in every part a maker has to deal with, not just the neck and > pegbox. The neck will pull forward the pegbox will pull as well, but a > good maker combined with the right weather conditions can > compensate for this. I think personally that the 90 degree angle has > more to do with tradition rather than practicality, however in this case > both have come together to create a very workable situation. > > ++Not only 90 degrees but other angles less than 90 have been > used. In my opinion, the pegbox angles were introduced first > as a matter of practicality. Many, if not all, traditions began as a > some sort of innovation. We continue to use them as a matter of > tradition in order to have historically correct instruments. Of course > we can enjoy the advantages of the design as well. > > Best regards, > Marion > > > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > - Original Message - > From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "timothy motz" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 10:39 PM > Subject: Re: Peg box bent: was: Pegs, revisited - ebony > > > > This is explanation is a good start but it is incomplete because > > it did not name the fundamental principle behind the design. > > The main term is "mechanical advantage." I suppose > > if you wanted to analyze the force distribution, you could define > > a "mechanical moment" as the force analog of a moment of a > > mass (or charge) distribution. The main idea here, as you know, > > is to decrese the force pulling the pegbox toward the bridge. > > > > The mechanical advantage is the ratio of the force that performs > > useful work of a machine to the force that is applied to the machine. > > The mechanical advantage that the angle offers is similar to the > > mechanical advantage of a pulley or a lever. The
