Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
antonio - in fairness, i never got an answer in the 1st round of correspondence; you said the charango was different to the vihuela de mano but never explained why or how. be that as it may, in order to prove that "charango" is merely a quechua name given to the vihuela de mano i'll have to: (a) verify the existence of the San Buenaventura book (b) and the Don Gonzalo de Guerrero reference c) and convince you that the gentleman knew what he saying when he called his "creepy crawly" instrument a vihuela. off hand i'd say that was impossible. even if i convince the luthier i was in contact with earlier to loan you his copy of the book, i don't think you would permit this historic, documented but uncollaborated statement to stand on its own. this correspondence, sir, makes me appreciate just how fickle the process of recorded of history can be. amicably (abbastanza) yours - bill --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear all, > > Once again . > > > --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > surely this is a case of putting the cart before > the > > horse. > > If the fact that the violeros knew what name to call > the instruments they made, and designated them with > such names in their own documents, implies putting a > cart before a horse so be it; I fail to see the > connection. > > > > - precisely what changes were made to the vihuela > de > > mano that required it having a new name? > > > I do not share the hypothesis that the charango > derives from the vihuela, therefore, I don't believe > I > should have to provide an explanation for a theory > I > personally find mistaken. > > > > - at what point do derivations - alternative > > tunings, > > decorative embellishments, different building > > materials - necessitate this change? > > > Same as above. > > > > - do you suggest that at some point, luthiers in > the > > new world stopped making vihuela de manos; threw > > away > > their molds and drawing plans and started to make > > charangos? when did this happen? > > > I would never dare to suggest such a thing, in my > view > it is simply wrong because, as I said above, it > would > mean a direct connection between the vihuela and the > charango, a connection I don't believe obtains. > > > > based on what was said during the last go-around > on > > the subject, i suspect that the answer is "don't > > know." if that's the case, i suggest that "don't > > know" makes it equally plausible that a charango > is > > a > > bona-fide vihuela de mano. in fact, its shape and > > the > > quote below make it more than plausible. > > > > - bill > > > > Tbe shapes of the vihuela and the charango suggest > precisely otherwise. The quote below needs to be > verified. I've know of it for a long time: it > appears > in almost every other site that deals with the > charango. However, I have not been able to find > either > the original edition of the said book, or a modern > one, something that sounds suspicious bearing the > fact > that I live in Mexico, where the said book is > purported to have been written. The date is also > wrong: according to the facts provided in the said > quote, the conquest of Yucatan would have been > accomplished by 1512 (the alleged date), and would > thus predate the conquest of Mexico. Hardly > probable. > I am tempted to consider this source as spurious > until > some proof of its veracity is produced. > > Another fact that needs to be taken into account > when > dealing with literary sources is that the > nomenclature > does not necessarily reflect a specific instrument. > As > an example, numerous sources from the seventeenth > century mention a vihuela when the context makes it > plain that they mean a guitar. There is a > welll-known > source from the fifteenth century, _Vision > delectable > de la filosofia_ that also mentions a vihuela while > the woodcut beside the quote illustrates a harp. I > could go on with this subject, save for the fact > that > I do not believe it is germane to the topic under > consideration, especially since the "Historias de la > conquista del Mayab" seems to be a fabrication. > > As a student my supervisor passed on to me an advice > from Thurston Dart which all of us would do well to > heed: "verify your references". I´m sorry, but the > authority of a website without any other supporting > evidence is not good enough for me. > > > With best regards, > Antonio > > > > > - --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation > > > whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely > knew > > > how > > > to name the instruments they made. > > > > > > Antonio > > > > > > > > > > > > --- bill kilpatrick > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de > > > > violeros", > > > > > that is, the regulations of the guild of > > > >
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear all, Once again . --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > surely this is a case of putting the cart before the > horse. If the fact that the violeros knew what name to call the instruments they made, and designated them with such names in their own documents, implies putting a cart before a horse so be it; I fail to see the connection. > - precisely what changes were made to the vihuela de > mano that required it having a new name? I do not share the hypothesis that the charango derives from the vihuela, therefore, I don't believe I should have to provide an explanation for a theory I personally find mistaken. > - at what point do derivations - alternative > tunings, > decorative embellishments, different building > materials - necessitate this change? Same as above. > - do you suggest that at some point, luthiers in the > new world stopped making vihuela de manos; threw > away > their molds and drawing plans and started to make > charangos? when did this happen? I would never dare to suggest such a thing, in my view it is simply wrong because, as I said above, it would mean a direct connection between the vihuela and the charango, a connection I don't believe obtains. > based on what was said during the last go-around on > the subject, i suspect that the answer is "don't > know." if that's the case, i suggest that "don't > know" makes it equally plausible that a charango is > a > bona-fide vihuela de mano. in fact, its shape and > the > quote below make it more than plausible. > > - bill > Tbe shapes of the vihuela and the charango suggest precisely otherwise. The quote below needs to be verified. I've know of it for a long time: it appears in almost every other site that deals with the charango. However, I have not been able to find either the original edition of the said book, or a modern one, something that sounds suspicious bearing the fact that I live in Mexico, where the said book is purported to have been written. The date is also wrong: according to the facts provided in the said quote, the conquest of Yucatan would have been accomplished by 1512 (the alleged date), and would thus predate the conquest of Mexico. Hardly probable. I am tempted to consider this source as spurious until some proof of its veracity is produced. Another fact that needs to be taken into account when dealing with literary sources is that the nomenclature does not necessarily reflect a specific instrument. As an example, numerous sources from the seventeenth century mention a vihuela when the context makes it plain that they mean a guitar. There is a welll-known source from the fifteenth century, _Vision delectable de la filosofia_ that also mentions a vihuela while the woodcut beside the quote illustrates a harp. I could go on with this subject, save for the fact that I do not believe it is germane to the topic under consideration, especially since the "Historias de la conquista del Mayab" seems to be a fabrication. As a student my supervisor passed on to me an advice from Thurston Dart which all of us would do well to heed: "verify your references". I´m sorry, but the authority of a website without any other supporting evidence is not good enough for me. With best regards, Antonio > > - --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation > > whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew > > how > > to name the instruments they made. > > > > Antonio > > > > > > > > --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de > > > violeros", > > > > that is, the regulations of the guild of > > > > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > > > > published > > > > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim > for > > > the > > > > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > > > > surely > > > > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > > > > certainly > > > > flourishing at the time. > > > > > > > > > any mention of the word "charango" or were the > > poor > > > deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela > > de > > > manos under the wrong name? > > > > > > what news of the vihuela society? > > > > > > - bill > > > > > > = > > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the > shell > > of > > > a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero > > > (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by > > Fra > > > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > > > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - > even > > > more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! > >
Re: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
You also might try Thomas Walker's (1968) 'Ciaccona and Passacaglia: Remarks on their Origin and Early History', JAMS 21/3 L. Fossum, Arthur wrote: >I will try to track down Richard Hudson's studies( thanks Antonio) > >-Arthur > > > > > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
I erroneously stated " In 1626 it was not between strophes in a song , but had lyrics of its own." I am wrong, you are right. I played through the Briceno and the Passacalles are meant to be between verses. Picture solo guitar + singer/dancer with castanets... I agree the web site was poorly written (Antonio points out even more errors). But if the point of these dances originating from America(the Americas) is correct, It would show that Music and Life in the Americas was not quite as puritanical and stagnant as some are suggesting. And actually had an influence on the development of music in Europe ( not just Europe to Americas) I will try to track down Richard Hudson's studies( thanks Antonio) -Arthur -Original Message- From: Fossum, Arthur Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 8:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe -Original Message- From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:42 PM In Briceno's method for Spanish guitar there are numerous passacalles with lyrics !!? published 1626. I am not sure if this is important (my Spanish is terrible, and my favorite translator is not available) After listing 12 passacalles(different progressions) he writes "Estos son las Pasacalles contenidos en la Guitarra con ellos se cantaran toda suerte de tonos Espanoles y Franceses graves y agudos" So passacalles in France and Spain in early 17th century. Was it dance first like the Allemande then stylized movement I am pretty sure I have another source... which I am currently looking for... from around the same time that lists passacalles as a 'Baile'... but I have been wrong in the past :) -Arthur To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe >>=20 >> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713? Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly an= outgrowth of its use in stage and/or chamber music: "In France the Hispanic-Italian passacaglia, like the chaconne, was= transformed during the mid-17th century into a distinctive native genre,= although before that the genre had already had some impact as an exotic= Spanish import. A passacalle(in the earlier sense of ritornello) occurs in= an air to a Spanish text by De Bailly (1614), and in 1623 the Spanish= expatriate Luis de Bri=E7e=F1o published in Paris a guitar method that= included in chord tablature brief chaconnes and passacaglias similar to the= early Italian examples -SNIP - To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear Arthur, Thank you so much for the link, but I'm afraid that all the informatiuon they provide there is utterly wrong, beginning with the fact that Guatemala is not in Mexico (even at the time it was a separate Capitanía general), that the Spanish chacona has little to do with later chaconnes, as it also happens with the pasacalles and passacaglia, nor was king Philip III married in Tampico. There are certainly grounds to suppose that the chacona originated in New Spain, but no definite proof about this has surfaced yet. Richard Hudson has made some excelent studies; I'm afraid I haven´t got the references handy, but it would be worthwhile, if you are interested, to find them. Besides, he links the evolution of several dance forms with the Baroque guitar (or "guitarra española" as it was called at the time) and its influence. Best regards, Antonio --- "Fossum, Arthur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of > Chaconne and Passacaglia > and the new world. > > http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm > > > > -Original Message- > From: Antonio Corona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:36 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more > lute related, maybe > > Dear all, > > > --- Carl Donsbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Early colonial life was hard! The early English > and > > Spanish colonies in > > North America were not characterized by much > musical > > cultural growth, and > > there is little evidence of lute playing or making > > in those times. Musical > > instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at > > home by emigrating > > colonists. By the time much of any kind of > musical > > life was enjoyed by the > > residents of the colonies, we were pretty well > into > > the Baroque. > > > > The situation regarding Mexico is quite the > opposite: > musical activities, both liturgical and secular, > began > even as the conquest was taking place, and continued > to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period. > This process is well documented in numerous sources > and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that > the first printing press and the first university in > the American continent were founded in Mexico City. > Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during > the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain > nobles > and authorities towards natives, brought with them > their whole culture, including, of course, music > which > was shared freely with the Indian population - as an > aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless > making > it part of the common culture being forged at the > time. The Indians appreciated the new music and > learned with amazing speed both how to play and how > to > make the instruments - which were also imported from > Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned > above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period. > > The music in the archives from the cathedrals and > churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala, > Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample > proof > that there was indeed a musical cultural growth. > Here > we can find music imported from Europe in great > quantities, but also a wealth of works composed > locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding > quality, > not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at > the time. Nowadays there is a great number of > recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those > interested in folowing up this topic. > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros", > that is, the regulations of the guild of > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > published > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > surely > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > certainly > flourishing at the time. > > With best regards, > Antonio > > > > > > > > ___ > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even > more fun! > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
surely this is a case of putting the cart before the horse. - precisely what changes were made to the vihuela de mano that required it having a new name? - at what point do derivations - alternative tunings, decorative embellishments, different building materials - necessitate this change? - do you suggest that at some point, luthiers in the new world stopped making vihuela de manos; threw away their molds and drawing plans and started to make charangos? when did this happen? based on what was said during the last go-around on the subject, i suspect that the answer is "don't know." if that's the case, i suggest that "don't know" makes it equally plausible that a charango is a bona-fide vihuela de mano. in fact, its shape and the quote below make it more than plausible. - bill - --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation > whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew > how > to name the instruments they made. > > Antonio > > > > --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de > > violeros", > > > that is, the regulations of the guild of > > > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > > > published > > > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for > > the > > > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > > > surely > > > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > > > certainly > > > flourishing at the time. > > > > > > any mention of the word "charango" or were the > poor > > deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela > de > > manos under the wrong name? > > > > what news of the vihuela society? > > > > - bill > > > > = > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell > of > > a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero > > (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by > Fra > > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even > > more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > ___ > > Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! > Messenger > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > = "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew how to name the instruments they made. Antonio --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de > violeros", > > that is, the regulations of the guild of > > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > > published > > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for > the > > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > > surely > > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > > certainly > > flourishing at the time. > > > any mention of the word "charango" or were the poor > deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela de > manos under the wrong name? > > what news of the vihuela society? > > - bill > > = > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of > a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero > (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > ___ > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even > more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
-Original Message- From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:42 PM In Briceno's method for Spanish guitar there are numerous passacalles with lyrics !!? published 1626. I am not sure if this is important (my Spanish is terrible, and my favorite translator is not available) After listing 12 passacalles(different progressions) he writes "Estos son las Pasacalles contenidos en la Guitarra con ellos se cantaran toda suerte de tonos Espanoles y Franceses graves y agudos" So passacalles in France and Spain in early 17th century. Was it dance first like the Allemande then stylized movement? In 1626 it was not between strophes in a song , but had lyrics of its own. I am pretty sure I have another source... which I am currently looking for... from around the same time that lists passacalles as a 'Baile'... but I have been wrong in the past :) -Arthur To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe >>=20 >> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713? Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly an= outgrowth of its use in stage and/or chamber music: "In France the Hispanic-Italian passacaglia, like the chaconne, was= transformed during the mid-17th century into a distinctive native genre,= although before that the genre had already had some impact as an exotic= Spanish import. A passacalle(in the earlier sense of ritornello) occurs in= an air to a Spanish text by De Bailly (1614), and in 1623 the Spanish= expatriate Luis de Bri=E7e=F1o published in Paris a guitar method that= included in chord tablature brief chaconnes and passacaglias similar to the= early Italian examples -SNIP - To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
Caroline Usher wrote: > The passacaglia is not a dance. Arthur Fossum wrote: > How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713? Probably because it was a dance at the time. If a musical form hangs around for a century or two, any statement about what it "is" will be perilous. "Symphony," "sonata," and "concerto" all meant something different in 1750 than they did in 1600. "Ciaccona" changed meanings several times. A local musician, for many years the pianist for the Los Angeles Philharmonic, developed her own working definitions of "passacaglia" and "chaconne:" both were ground-bass variations, but in a passacaglia the ground bass was heard alone at the beginning. She acknowledged that Bach wrote passacaglias in which the ground bass was not heard alone at the beginning, but said that Bach got it wrong. I'm not sure what use her definition could have been, even to her, but I never asked. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
>>=20 >> How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713? Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly an= outgrowth of its use in stage and/or chamber music: "In France the Hispanic-Italian passacaglia, like the chaconne, was= transformed during the mid-17th century into a distinctive native genre,= although before that the genre had already had some impact as an exotic= Spanish import. A passacalle(in the earlier sense of ritornello) occurs in= an air to a Spanish text by De Bailly (1614), and in 1623 the Spanish= expatriate Luis de Bri=E7e=F1o published in Paris a guitar method that= included in chord tablature brief chaconnes and passacaglias similar to the= early Italian examples. During the 1640s the promotion of Italian music and= musicians by Cardinal Mazarin brought wider familiarity with the two genres= in their newer incarnations. A harpsichord passacaglia by Luigi Rossi (who= visited Paris in 1646 and whose Orfeo was performed there the following= year) enjoyed wide manuscript circulation. Francesco Corbetta, who settled= in Paris around 1648 and became guitar teacher to the future Louis XIV, was= perhaps the greatest Italian guitar virtuoso of his time, and the composer= of numerous chaconnes and passacaglias. By the late 1650s the French passacaglia tradition was firmly in place,= already showing many of the characteristics that would mark the genre= during the later 17th century and the 18th. Like the chaconne, the= passacaglia was cultivated both in chamber music, especially by guitarists,= lutenists and keyboard players, and on the musical stage." (New Grove) This page from Kellom Tomlinson's dance treatise shows the steps for a= passacaille. the accompanying music is not the bass line but a melody. Caroline http://www.bllearning.co.uk/live-extracts/108337/=20 * Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
> -Original Message- > From: Fossum, Arthur > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 12:01 PM > To: 'Caroline Usher' > Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe > > How come "pas de passacalle" is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713? > > -Original Message- > From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:34 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe > > At 10:41 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: > > >Obviously as a musical form Ciacona and Passacaglia are different. I > >think the website is calling them similar as respect to the dance steps. > >I would like to know the source as well for " F.A. Ciacone" > > The passacaglia is not a dance. From the New Grove: > > "The passacaglia appears to have originated in early 17th-century Spain as > the pasacalle, a brief improvisation (usually barely more than a few > rhythmically strummed cadential chords) that guitarists played between the > strophes of a song, somewhat in the nature of a vamp. The term comes from > pasar (to walk) and calle (street), possibly deriving from outdoor > performances or from a practice of popular musicians to take a few steps > during these interludes. The first references to pasacalles appear in > Spanish literature in about 1605; in certain contexts the term seems to > have been used interchangeably with Paseo." > > Caroline > * > Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator > 613-8155, Box 91000 > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
At 10:41 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Obviously as a musical form Ciacona and Passacaglia are different. I >think the website is calling them similar as respect to the dance steps. >I would like to know the source as well for " F.A. Ciacone" The passacaglia is not a dance. From the New Grove: "The passacaglia appears to have originated in early 17th-century Spain as the pasacalle, a brief improvisation (usually barely more than a few rhythmically strummed cadential chords) that guitarists played between the strophes of a song, somewhat in the nature of a vamp. The term comes from pasar (to walk) and calle (street), possibly deriving from outdoor performances or from a practice of popular musicians to take a few steps during these interludes. The first references to pasacalles appear in Spanish literature in about 1605; in certain contexts the term seems to have been used interchangeably with Paseo." Caroline * Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
I agree with Caroline, Ciaccona is not equal to Passacaglia, the Sigr. Ciacone is not more palusible than Sig. Passo Emezzo or Ms Folia... Paolo > At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia > >and the new world. > > > >http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm > > From this website: "The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a > Spanish Folk dance but originally came from Italy, created by F. Alfonso > Ciacone (1540-1599), a blind Italian composer from about 1560." > > Sgr. Ciacone is unknown to the authors of the New Grove Dictionary of Music > and Musicians, the premier reference work in English. Does anyone have any > evidence for his existence? The Ciacona and the Passacaglia are not the same. > Caroline > > * > Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator > 613-8155, Box 91000 > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Libero ADSL: 3 mesi gratis e navighi a 1.2 Mega, senza costi di attivazione. Abbonati subito su http://www.libero.it
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
--On Friday, December 10, 2004 7:27 AM -0800 Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Carl Donsbach wrote: > >> Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in >> North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and >> there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. >> Musical instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by >> emigrating colonists. > > I wouldn't be so quick to equate a lack of evidence of large numbers of > lutes with a lack of music. It might give you a skewed view of Vienna in > the 1820's. Indeed it might... the 19th and 20th centuries more or less planetwide for that matter. I didn't mean to slight the lack of viols, recorders, sackbuts, etc. - Carl Donsbach To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
I thought it might be a spoof, but a visit to the home page, "dedicated to the dancers of 'West Coast Swing' and its variants" indicates that the writers are just out of their element. Caroline Usher wrote: > At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: >> Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia >> and the new world. >> >> http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm > > From this website: "The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a Spanish > Folk dance but originally came from Italy, created by F. Alfonso Ciacone > (1540-1599), a blind Italian composer from about 1560." The next couple of sentences are even better: "From there it went on to Guatemala, Mexico via Simon Agudo? which was then introduced to the public in Tampico, Mexico in 1599 at the wedding for the King of Spain Phillip III (1578-1621). A few years later it became very popular in Barcelona, Spain and by 1618 it arrived by mail from the West Indies to Seville." "Arrived by mail." I wish I'd written that. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
Obviously as a musical form Ciacona and Passacaglia are different. I think the website is calling them similar as respect to the dance steps. I would like to know the source as well for " F.A. Ciacone" -Original Message- From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 9:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia >and the new world. > >http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm From this website: "The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a Spanish Folk dance but originally came from Italy, created by F. Alfonso Ciacone (1540-1599), a blind Italian composer from about 1560." Sgr. Ciacone is unknown to the authors of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, the premier reference work in English. Does anyone have any evidence for his existence? The Ciacona and the Passacaglia are not the same. Caroline * Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Carl Donsbach wrote: > Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in > North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and > there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. Musical > instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by emigrating > colonists. I wouldn't be so quick to equate a lack of evidence of large numbers of lutes with a lack of music. It might give you a skewed view of Vienna in the 1820's. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia >and the new world. > >http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm From this website: "The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a Spanish Folk dance but originally came from Italy, created by F. Alfonso Ciacone (1540-1599), a blind Italian composer from about 1560." Sgr. Ciacone is unknown to the authors of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, the premier reference work in English. Does anyone have any evidence for his existence? The Ciacona and the Passacaglia are not the same. Caroline * Caroline Usher, DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Box 91000 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia and the new world. http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe Dear all, --- Carl Donsbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Early colonial life was hard! The early English and > Spanish colonies in > North America were not characterized by much musical > cultural growth, and > there is little evidence of lute playing or making > in those times. Musical > instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at > home by emigrating > colonists. By the time much of any kind of musical > life was enjoyed by the > residents of the colonies, we were pretty well into > the Baroque. The situation regarding Mexico is quite the opposite: musical activities, both liturgical and secular, began even as the conquest was taking place, and continued to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period. This process is well documented in numerous sources and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that the first printing press and the first university in the American continent were founded in Mexico City. Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain nobles and authorities towards natives, brought with them their whole culture, including, of course, music which was shared freely with the Indian population - as an aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless making it part of the common culture being forged at the time. The Indians appreciated the new music and learned with amazing speed both how to play and how to make the instruments - which were also imported from Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period. The music in the archives from the cathedrals and churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala, Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample proof that there was indeed a musical cultural growth. Here we can find music imported from Europe in great quantities, but also a wealth of works composed locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding quality, not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at the time. Nowadays there is a great number of recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those interested in folowing up this topic. Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros", that is, the regulations of the guild of vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first published in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must surely mean that instrument-making -and buying- was certainly flourishing at the time. With best regards, Antonio ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
--- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros", > that is, the regulations of the guild of > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > published > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > surely > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > certainly > flourishing at the time. any mention of the word "charango" or were the poor deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela de manos under the wrong name? what news of the vihuela society? - bill = "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear all, --- Carl Donsbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Early colonial life was hard! The early English and > Spanish colonies in > North America were not characterized by much musical > cultural growth, and > there is little evidence of lute playing or making > in those times. Musical > instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at > home by emigrating > colonists. By the time much of any kind of musical > life was enjoyed by the > residents of the colonies, we were pretty well into > the Baroque. The situation regarding Mexico is quite the opposite: musical activities, both liturgical and secular, began even as the conquest was taking place, and continued to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period. This process is well documented in numerous sources and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that the first printing press and the first university in the American continent were founded in Mexico City. Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain nobles and authorities towards natives, brought with them their whole culture, including, of course, music which was shared freely with the Indian population - as an aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless making it part of the common culture being forged at the time. The Indians appreciated the new music and learned with amazing speed both how to play and how to make the instruments - which were also imported from Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period. The music in the archives from the cathedrals and churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala, Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample proof that there was indeed a musical cultural growth. Here we can find music imported from Europe in great quantities, but also a wealth of works composed locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding quality, not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at the time. Nowadays there is a great number of recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those interested in folowing up this topic. Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros", that is, the regulations of the guild of vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first published in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must surely mean that instrument-making -and buying- was certainly flourishing at the time. With best regards, Antonio ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
To answer the question, there was the French colony Nouvelle-Orleans, now called New Orleans. It was founded in 1718 and part of the initial population was a group of Ursulines nuns; a manuscript was recently discovered in the convent containing sacred texts set to the music of Lully etc. Not far from the convent was Congo Square, where the local slave population were allowed to practice their native music and dance (a major difference between the English and contintental practice of slavery.) Within a couple hundred years, jazz music arose in the surrounding streets. Both the convent and Congo Square are just a few blocks from where I'm typing this message, btw. -Original Message- From: Carl Donsbach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 4:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe Thoughts, random and disjointed... Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. Musical instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by emigrating colonists. By the time much of any kind of musical life was enjoyed by the residents of the colonies, we were pretty well into the Baroque. Would Italian colonists have done differently, brought more lutes and viols with them? Perhaps we would have a slightly different heritage of the lute in the Americas? Who can say... maybe Baroque America would be a more likely topic? On the other hand, slaves often found ways of holding on to their old musical cultures. The banjo is of African-American origin, as are certain vocal traditions, types of hymn-singing, rhythms that developed into jazz, etc. Would this have happened differently if the slaveholding regime had developed from more Italian roots? Would the curious institution have even developed in an Italian America? Democracy developed in the American colonies largely as an outgrowth of the English parliamentary system. What would have been different if the Italian system of government in those times had been the seminal force? Would the lute have survived longer as a contemporary instrument in an Italian enclave? (It may be useless to speculate about any of these things, but as for characterizing R's post as a jab at America... well the world's attitude toward the US has been changing over the past couple of years, and it may serve us well to examine the reasons for this. Soul-searching has never hurt anyone... but I guess that is for another forum.) -Carl Donsbach --On Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:06 AM +0100 rosinfiorini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Would be cool. Like i was thinking recently, what if America was not > conquered and developed under the sign of stiff puritans but by the > Italians (without the Savanarola part though-hehe)just when there was the > Renaissance and everything went renaissancewise...Thiw part of the world > could have been a better palce then--with less stupidity and mutual hate > (everyone suing eachother-lol)..oh well > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear Carl and All: Carl's comments may hold true for what we now know as the United States, but probably not for Mexico and Central America. Recent research has suggested a fairly high level of musical activity, including instrument making by immigrants and natives, and choral music in the churches. Carl Donsbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2004 05:51 Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe PM Thoughts, random and disjointed... Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. Musical instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by emigrating colonists. By the time much of any kind of musical life was enjoyed by the residents of the colonies, we were pretty well into the Baroque. Would Italian colonists have done differently, brought more lutes and viols with them? Perhaps we would have a slightly different heritage of the lute in the Americas? Who can say... maybe Baroque America would be a more likely topic? On the other hand, slaves often found ways of holding on to their old musical cultures. The banjo is of African-American origin, as are certain vocal traditions, types of hymn-singing, rhythms that developed into jazz, etc. Would this have happened differently if the slaveholding regime had developed from more Italian roots? Would the curious institution have even developed in an Italian America? Democracy developed in the American colonies largely as an outgrowth of the English parliamentary system. What would have been different if the Italian system of government in those times had been the seminal force? Would the lute have survived longer as a contemporary instrument in an Italian enclave? (It may be useless to speculate about any of these things, but as for characterizing R's post as a jab at America... well the world's attitude toward the US has been changing over the past couple of years, and it may serve us well to examine the reasons for this. Soul-searching has never hurt anyone... but I guess that is for another forum.) -Carl Donsbach --On Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:06 AM +0100 rosinfiorini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Would be cool. Like i was thinking recently, what if America was not > conquered and developed under the sign of stiff puritans but by the > Italians (without the Savanarola part though-hehe)just when there was the > Renaissance and everything went renaissancewise...Thiw part of the world > could have been a better palce then--with less stupidity and mutual hate > (everyone suing eachother-lol)..oh well > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Thoughts, random and disjointed... Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. Musical instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by emigrating colonists. By the time much of any kind of musical life was enjoyed by the residents of the colonies, we were pretty well into the Baroque. Would Italian colonists have done differently, brought more lutes and viols with them? Perhaps we would have a slightly different heritage of the lute in the Americas? Who can say... maybe Baroque America would be a more likely topic? On the other hand, slaves often found ways of holding on to their old musical cultures. The banjo is of African-American origin, as are certain vocal traditions, types of hymn-singing, rhythms that developed into jazz, etc. Would this have happened differently if the slaveholding regime had developed from more Italian roots? Would the curious institution have even developed in an Italian America? Democracy developed in the American colonies largely as an outgrowth of the English parliamentary system. What would have been different if the Italian system of government in those times had been the seminal force? Would the lute have survived longer as a contemporary instrument in an Italian enclave? (It may be useless to speculate about any of these things, but as for characterizing R's post as a jab at America... well the world's attitude toward the US has been changing over the past couple of years, and it may serve us well to examine the reasons for this. Soul-searching has never hurt anyone... but I guess that is for another forum.) -Carl Donsbach --On Thursday, December 09, 2004 1:06 AM +0100 rosinfiorini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Would be cool. Like i was thinking recently, what if America was not > conquered and developed under the sign of stiff puritans but by the > Italians (without the Savanarola part though-hehe)just when there was the > Renaissance and everything went renaissancewise...Thiw part of the world > could have been a better palce then--with less stupidity and mutual hate > (everyone suing eachother-lol)..oh well > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
