Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Am 6 Jun 2005 um 23:33 hat G.R. Crona geschrieben: Otherwise, I think it would be very interesting, to make an inventory of the pieces in the collected lute canon there are for 5 course lute (and also 5 course vihuela for that matter - i.e Mudarra?), as they imply works that are from the 15th century or earlier, and therefore especially worthwile of study, as there isn't a lot of lute music from that time. (But perhaps some medieval lute enthusiasts have done this already?) Hi Göran, this would be interesting indeed. However, I think the fact that pieces of music don't use all strings of any time-fitting instrument doesn't necessarily mean they are intended for their ancestors. Pedagogical and musical reasons might very well call for a smaller ambitus. Best regards, Stephan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: of the times. The text dealt with the word fumé. I always believed fumé came to Europe with the discovery of tobacco after Columbus 1492. So what was this fumé? fumus = smoke (of fire) Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Dear Mathias, I know that! The text in this vocal piece seemed to leave nothing to doubt though, with lines like head in the clouds of smoke lost in the smoke or similar things. Quite extraordinary... B.R. G. On 6/8/05, Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: of the times. The text dealt with the word fumé. I always believed fumé came to Europe with the discovery of tobacco after Columbus 1492. So what was this fumé? fumus = smoke (of fire) Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Rainer wrote: from my database: 5609 57/2 The rich Jew copied from 1186, Brookes No. 939, keyboard 1186 100v/2 ye rich Jew. Brookes, No. 939, keyboard Dd.5.21 12r ???, recorder Dd.9.33 38r/2 de Jerr a mort, lute Dd.3.18 48r The Jewes Dawnce. R Nicolson [index:] Jewes Dawnce., lute Dd.9.33 38r/2 de Jerr a mort, lute 1 2 1 3 1 |-a-a-a-|-a-a-|-a---a-c-a---a-a-|-c-a-a-a-| |-a-a-c-c---|-e-a-c-e-a-a-|---d---d-c-a-c-a-c-d---c-d---|-e-c-e-a-c-e-a-a-| |-d-d-d-|-a-a-c-c-|-|-a-c-| |-c-c---|-|-|-| |-a---e-|-c---a-c-|-a---e---|-c---| |-a-a---|---e-a-a-|-a---|-a---| a 2 3 2 1 3 1 |-e-e-f-f-e-f-|-h---a-a-|-e-c-a-c-e-a-c-e-f-e-c-e-f-c-e-f-|-ha-a---a-| |-f-f-c-c-|-a-a-c-e-a-a-|-a---a---c---|--a-c-e-a---a-| |-f-f-|-d-a-c-c-|-|a---c-d-c-| |-|-|-|--c---| |-a---|-a-c-|-a---|a---c-| |-a-a-|-a-e-a-a-|-a---a---|---a-e--a---a-| 2.3 2 3 2.3 2 3 2 1 3 2 1 |-e-f-h-f-h-k-h-f-e-f-|-h---a-a-|-e---e-f-h-e-f-h-k-h-f-e-f-e-c-a-|---a-c---a-|| |-a---a---|-a-a-c-e-a-a-|---h-|-e-c-e-a-c-e-a-|| |-|---a-c-c-|-|-c-|| |-|-|-|---c---|| |---a---a-|-a-c-|-a---a---|---|| |-a---a---|-a-e-a---|-a---a---|-a---a-|| a a I must say that to my ears this does not sound very much like jewish music! B.R. G. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Hi, just goofing hindsightedly (469 yrs.), trying to see what Neusidler was really saying. [My brackets] Here follows the Jew's dance, and whoever wishes to play it, must tune the Lute differently. Here is the tuning. First tune the 5th course and the small strings which lie next to the 5th course. Tune them to the cipher 4 [which equals the 2nd course loose]; and the 4th course has to sound equal to the 5th course, as said before [cipher 4]. The 5th course and the strings next to it, and the 4th course, all three (!) must have the same voice as the cipher 4. And the 1st course has to be tuned to the [cipher] + [2nd course 5th fret]. Then the tuning will be correct. One may also play many other dances with this tuning. The Jew's dance: It should be played fast, otherwise it will not sound well. Questions: 1. What are all those 5th course strings he mentions? (Three of them?) 2. Why did H. Neusidler specify tuning for 1st course? Did he use other tunings for 1st course? (Not likely) 3. Has anyone edited his 3 works yet, especially his instructons? (excl.Moenkemeyer and Towne's ft2:s). [btw. whose german instructions did Dowland use? Gerle 1533? Why? Are they that good?] 4. Does anyone recognize this jewish melody from musical or religious tradition? Otherwise, I think it would be very interesting, to make an inventory of the pieces in the collected lute canon there are for 5 course lute (and also 5 course vihuela for that matter - i.e Mudarra?), as they imply works that are from the 15th century or earlier, and therefore especially worthwile of study, as there isn't a lot of lute music from that time. (But perhaps some medieval lute enthusiasts have done this already?) A little anecdote: We have a fine weekly EM radio program here, and this week they bc'd a french vocal work from the late middle ages which sounded almost surrealistic. The music was definitely what you would today call avantgardistic, although still (barely) inside the musical idiom or fold of the times. The text dealt with the word fumé. I always believed fumé came to Europe with the discovery of tobacco after Columbus 1492. So what was this fumé? Tobacco, or something else? The radio DJ:s were musing on this subject and said: The EM community have snubbed the drug theory and seen it more as an allegory or symbolically. Intriguingly B.R. G. On 6/6/05, Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 6, 2005, at 2:59 AM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear Ed, I'm afraid that transcription misses one of the points of Neusidler's tablature (which Arthur referred to in his mailing) - when notes higher than the fifth fret are indicated the alphabet is started again with a line placed above the cipher to indicate the higher position. These are present in the original, so the tune starts on the 7th fret, not the second. It's easy to miss because the lines placed over the letter look almost like a continuous line below the rhythm flags. Ah yes. Now I see them. Clear as a bell, actually. If I would have really studied kanji while living all this time in Japan, my brain would be attuned to subtle visual differences. So Michael Morrow's transcription is correct. Tricky stuff German tablature.. Perhaps. This would be an excellent piece for starting with though because it just consists of a few notes over and over. cheers, Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Hi all, On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, G.R. Crona wrote: surrealistic. The music was definitely what you would today call avantgardistic, although still (barely) inside the musical idiom or fold of the times. The text dealt with the word fumé. I always believed fumé came to Europe with the discovery of tobacco after Columbus 1492. So what was this fumé? Tobacco, or something else? The radio DJ:s were musing on this subject and said: The EM community have snubbed the drug theory and seen it more as an allegory or symbolically. Dear Göran, just check Avignon and at least a couple of Popes at the same time, etc... ;-) I just guess it was opium the gang of composers in Avignon were using? Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
If not that, then certainly some of this very good stuff: http://www.chateauneuf.com/english/ Aside from the excellent quality of the wine, an interesting aspect of this AOC is the bottle itself, which presents the papal crest in relief: http://www.chateauneuf.com/photo/news100.jpg IN VINO VERITAS -Original Message- From: Arto Wikla [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 5:12 PM To: G.R. Crona Cc: lute Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Hi all, On Mon, 6 Jun 2005, G.R. Crona wrote: surrealistic. The music was definitely what you would today call avantgardistic, although still (barely) inside the musical idiom or fold of the times. The text dealt with the word fumé. I always believed fumé came to Europe with the discovery of tobacco after Columbus 1492. So what was this fumé? Tobacco, or something else? The radio DJ:s were musing on this subject and said: The EM community have snubbed the drug theory and seen it more as an allegory or symbolically. Dear Göran, just check Avignon and at least a couple of Popes at the same time, etc... ;-) I just guess it was opium the gang of composers in Avignon were using? Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
On Jun 6, 2005, at 2:59 AM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear Ed, I'm afraid that transcription misses one of the points of Neusidler's tablature (which Arthur referred to in his mailing) - when notes higher than the fifth fret are indicated the alphabet is started again with a line placed above the cipher to indicate the higher position. These are present in the original, so the tune starts on the 7th fret, not the second. It's easy to miss because the lines placed over the letter look almost like a continuous line below the rhythm flags. Ah yes. Now I see them. Clear as a bell, actually. If I would have really studied kanji while living all this time in Japan, my brain would be attuned to subtle visual differences. So Michael Morrow's transcription is correct. Tricky stuff German tablature.. Perhaps. This would be an excellent piece for starting with though because it just consists of a few notes over and over. cheers, Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Dear Arthur, Thank you for that information. My apologies if you felt my mailing was disrespectful to Willi Apel who was, of course, a great scholar. The fact that even the great can make mistakes makes it a little more possible for amateurs like myself to risk committing ideas to print, although it should be perhaps with greater trepidation. I am delighted to think that at least someone made a fortune from writing about music! Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 8:11 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Yes,that's from Apel's book on notation, where the facsimile appears also. I shudder to think how many grad students transcribed that piece. Thousands. Of course, it was Adolf Koczirz who first drew attention to the supposed bi-tonality. And he didn't get the tuning of the lower courses correct. So if it was a great faux pas Apel was in good company. And Koczirz must surely rank among the leading lute scholars of the pre-WW_II generation. That was just one of the books that made Apel a millionaire, one who retired to a castle on the Danube.g So in the end he really gave all his critics a raspberry. Some of the pieces in Petrucci's books (Spinacino???) are also for five course lute, and I think there are others in Newsidler. By the way, those Newsidler books are didactically ordered, and I suspect they were used to train his son Melchior (b. ca. 1531) who would have been at an age to begins his studies in music in 1536, 1540 and 1544. I've always felt those pieces were selected to enchant a yound boy. The organist in the parish where the Newsidlers lived was Sebald Hayden, a noted pedagogue. I also suspect that that is where Melchior learned the masterful counterpoint that characterizes his ricercars and fantasias. Newsidler's 1536 book would be agood place to practice reading German tablature. All three books are available in facsimile. (See http://www.omifacsimiles.com Notice the second lineof theJudentanz facsimile. You can see that some ciphers have a line indicating the high fret,and others do not. Arthur. - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:01 AM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Dear All, I am sure Arthur will remember this, but it may be of interest to others that that this inaccuracy in the tuning instructions for the Judentanz led to one of the great faux pas of lute musicology. Many years ago the eminent musicologist Willi Apel took the instructions at face value and wrote: Der Judentanz (the dance of the Jews represents one of the earliest examples, if not the earliest, of satire in music .. the satirical character is expressed by cacophonous dissonances .. it is written in a strikingly modern idiom of bi-tonality such as rarely occurs before the advent of the twentieth century. The late Michael Morrow wrote an article entitled Ayre on the F sharp string which was published in the Lute Society Journal of 1960 which corrected the misunderstanding. The quote above is from that article. I seem to remember that in the 1970's Konrad Ragossnig actually recorded the incorrect version, complete with said cacophonous dissonances, on his album of German lute music. The guitarist John Renbourn, who knew this story, used to play the piece on the guitar as part of his set and with typical humour played both versions. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. The quint should be tuned to + (et) which looks like the t' that is given by mistake in the instructions for the top course. That is, one tunes the top course to the FIFTH fret on the II course(+), not the fourth fret on the II course (=t).. So, (G)_d_d_a_d'_g'. Notice that the first cipher and others have lines above them. So the first note is I:h. (=k withline in German tablature) here are Newsidler's names for the courses: I:Quint Saitte II: Klein Saitte III: Mitl Saitte IV: Klein Brummer V: Mitl Brummer VI: Gross Brummer ajn - Original Message - From: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Dear All, I am sure Arthur will remember this, but it may be of interest to others that that this inaccuracy in the tuning instructions for the Judentanz led to one of the great faux pas of lute musicology. Many years ago the eminent musicologist Willi Apel took the instructions at face value and wrote: Der Judentanz (the dance of the Jews represents one of the earliest examples, if not the earliest, of satire in music .. the satirical character is expressed by cacophonous dissonances .. it is written in a strikingly modern idiom of bi-tonality such as rarely occurs before the advent of the twentieth century. The late Michael Morrow wrote an article entitled Ayre on the F sharp string which was published in the Lute Society Journal of 1960 which corrected the misunderstanding. The quote above is from that article. I seem to remember that in the 1970's Konrad Ragossnig actually recorded the incorrect version, complete with said cacophonous dissonances, on his album of German lute music. The guitarist John Renbourn, who knew this story, used to play the piece on the guitar as part of his set and with typical humour played both versions. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. The quint should be tuned to + (et) which looks like the t' that is given by mistake in the instructions for the top course. That is, one tunes the top course to the FIFTH fret on the II course(+), not the fourth fret on the II course (=t).. So, (G)_d_d_a_d'_g'. Notice that the first cipher and others have lines above them. So the first note is I:h. (=k withline in German tablature) here are Newsidler's names for the courses: I:Quint Saitte II: Klein Saitte III: Mitl Saitte IV: Klein Brummer V: Mitl Brummer VI: Gross Brummer ajn - Original Message - From: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R. G. On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 11:10 schrieben Sie: Dear all, I have a rather urgent request as I was invited to play a short concert at a symposion in Austria: Jews and Christians in the Medieval and renaissance. I was especially asked to play the Judentanz by Neusidler. I have also learned that there are some other Jew's dances by Heckel, Judenkunig and others. Has anybody of you a copy of these pieces and can send me a pdf or jpeg or similar file? The problem is that I have no time to wait for a bookorder by snailmail as I still have to prepare and practice the music. Normally I buy all the books I am playing out of and the rest of the program is taken from them but this time there is too little time to order them from abroad. If there is an interesting piece maybe in the National Bibliothek Vienna let me know, I can try to go for it. If you have any recent information about the tuning of the Neusidler Judentanz I would appreciate your help. Best regards Hermann Platzer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch?
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Hi,
Now, with a little help and reading through the facsimile, I believe
that this should be a more correct version. As said, tune the 5th and
4th courses to D and leave 3rd 2nd and 1st courses as they are. So
it's to be played on a five course lute... Hmmm... could be quite an
old piece then huh?
PS. Bream recorded it on LSC 2924-B
B.R.
G.
***
-t
-f
{Der Judentanz/Hans Newsidler}
b
C
3h
xg
xh
xk
xh
xg
xh
xk
x
xh
xg
x k
2 h
x a
b
3h
xg
xh
xk
xh
xg
xh
xk
x
xh
xg
x k
2 h
x a
b
b
3h
xg
xh
xk
xh
xg
x k
x h
x aa
xe
xc
xa
2 e
xa
b
3h
xg
xh
xk
xh
xg
x k
x h
x aa
xe
xc
xa
2 e
xa
x
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Hallo Göran, thank you for your helpful work! That was a quick one! Best regards Hermann To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Oops! Stupid me. I didn't see that everything repeats from the 6th fret. I expected altered symbols for the higher notes. Shows you how often I read German tab. blush It makes more sense in the higher position. On Jun 6, 2005, at 1:00 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote: So are there 2 versions of the Juden Tantz by Neusidler? The one at the site Thomas refers to works fine with the given tuning. It doesn't go higher than fret 4.The transcription in the 1960 Lute Journal also works fine and gives the same tuning, but the melody is up a fourth, the highest note at the 9th fret. It even gives a French tab transcription. From different books or the same book? cheers, On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece On Jun 5, 2005, at 8:01 PM, Denys Stephens wrote: Dear All, I am sure Arthur will remember this, but it may be of interest to others that that this inaccuracy in the tuning instructions for the Judentanz led to one of the great faux pas of lute musicology. Many years ago the eminent musicologist Willi Apel took the instructions at face value and wrote: Der Judentanz (the dance of the Jews represents one of the earliest examples, if not the earliest, of satire in music .. the satirical character is expressed by cacophonous dissonances .. it is written in a strikingly modern idiom of bi-tonality such as rarely occurs before the advent of the twentieth century. The late Michael Morrow wrote an article entitled Ayre on the F sharp string which was published in the Lute Society Journal of 1960 which corrected the misunderstanding. The quote above is from that article. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Yes,that's from Apel's book on notation, where the facsimile appears also. I shudder to think how many grad students transcribed that piece. Thousands. Of course, it was Adolf Koczirz who first drew attention to the supposed bi-tonality. And he didn't get the tuning of the lower courses correct. So if it was a great faux pas Apel was in good company. And Koczirz must surely rank among the leading lute scholars of the pre-WW_II generation. That was just one of the books that made Apel a millionaire, one who retired to a castle on the Danube.g So in the end he really gave all his critics a raspberry. Some of the pieces in Petrucci's books (Spinacino???) are also for five course lute, and I think there are others in Newsidler. By the way, those Newsidler books are didactically ordered, and I suspect they were used to train his son Melchior (b. ca. 1531) who would have been at an age to begins his studies in music in 1536, 1540 and 1544. I've always felt those pieces were selected to enchant a yound boy. The organist in the parish where the Newsidlers lived was Sebald Hayden, a noted pedagogue. I also suspect that that is where Melchior learned the masterful counterpoint that characterizes his ricercars and fantasias. Newsidler's 1536 book would be agood place to practice reading German tablature. All three books are available in facsimile. (See http://www.omifacsimiles.com Notice the second lineof theJudentanz facsimile. You can see that some ciphers have a line indicating the high fret,and others do not. Arthur. - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:01 AM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Dear All, I am sure Arthur will remember this, but it may be of interest to others that that this inaccuracy in the tuning instructions for the Judentanz led to one of the great faux pas of lute musicology. Many years ago the eminent musicologist Willi Apel took the instructions at face value and wrote: Der Judentanz (the dance of the Jews represents one of the earliest examples, if not the earliest, of satire in music .. the satirical character is expressed by cacophonous dissonances .. it is written in a strikingly modern idiom of bi-tonality such as rarely occurs before the advent of the twentieth century. The late Michael Morrow wrote an article entitled Ayre on the F sharp string which was published in the Lute Society Journal of 1960 which corrected the misunderstanding. The quote above is from that article. I seem to remember that in the 1970's Konrad Ragossnig actually recorded the incorrect version, complete with said cacophonous dissonances, on his album of German lute music. The guitarist John Renbourn, who knew this story, used to play the piece on the guitar as part of his set and with typical humour played both versions. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. The quint should be tuned to + (et) which looks like the t' that is given by mistake in the instructions for the top course. That is, one tunes the top course to the FIFTH fret on the II course(+), not the fourth fret on the II course (=t).. So, (G)_d_d_a_d'_g'. Notice that the first cipher and others have lines above them. So the first note is I:h. (=k withline in German tablature) here are Newsidler's names for the courses: I:Quint Saitte II: Klein Saitte III: Mitl Saitte IV: Klein Brummer V: Mitl Brummer VI: Gross Brummer ajn - Original Message - From: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Yes,that's from Apel's book on notation, where the facsimile appears also. I shudder to think how many grad students transcribed that piece. Thousands. Of course, it was Adolf Koczirz who first drew attention to the supposed bi-tonality. And he didn't get the tuning of the lower courses correct. So if it was a great faux pas Apel was in good company. And Koczirz must surely rank among the leading lute scholars of the pre-WW_II generation. That was just one of the books that made Apel a millionaire, one who retired to a castle on the Danube.g So in the end he really gave all his critics a raspberry. Some of the pieces in Petrucci's books (Spinacino???) are also for five course lute, and I think there are others in Newsidler. By the way, those Newsidler books are didactically ordered, and I suspect they were used to train his son Melchior (b. ca. 1531) who would have been at an age to begins his studies in music in 1536, 1540 and 1544. I've always felt those pieces were selected to enchant a yound boy. The organist in the parish where the Newsidlers lived was Sebald Hayden, a noted pedagogue. I also suspect that that is where Melchior learned the masterful counterpoint that characterizes his ricercars and fantasias. Newsidler's 1536 book would be agood place to practice reading German tablature. All three books are available in facsimile. (See http://www.omifacsimiles.com Notice the second lineof theJudentanz facsimile. You can see that some ciphers have a line indicating the high fret,and others do not. Arthur. - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:01 AM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Dear All, I am sure Arthur will remember this, but it may be of interest to others that that this inaccuracy in the tuning instructions for the Judentanz led to one of the great faux pas of lute musicology. Many years ago the eminent musicologist Willi Apel took the instructions at face value and wrote: Der Judentanz (the dance of the Jews represents one of the earliest examples, if not the earliest, of satire in music .. the satirical character is expressed by cacophonous dissonances .. it is written in a strikingly modern idiom of bi-tonality such as rarely occurs before the advent of the twentieth century. The late Michael Morrow wrote an article entitled Ayre on the F sharp string which was published in the Lute Society Journal of 1960 which corrected the misunderstanding. The quote above is from that article. I seem to remember that in the 1970's Konrad Ragossnig actually recorded the incorrect version, complete with said cacophonous dissonances, on his album of German lute music. The guitarist John Renbourn, who knew this story, used to play the piece on the guitar as part of his set and with typical humour played both versions. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. The quint should be tuned to + (et) which looks like the t' that is given by mistake in the instructions for the top course. That is, one tunes the top course to the FIFTH fret on the II course(+), not the fourth fret on the II course (=t).. So, (G)_d_d_a_d'_g'. Notice that the first cipher and others have lines above them. So the first note is I:h. (=k withline in German tablature) here are Newsidler's names for the courses: I:Quint Saitte II: Klein Saitte III: Mitl Saitte IV: Klein Brummer V: Mitl Brummer VI: Gross Brummer ajn - Original Message - From: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Dear Stewart, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Arthur, The Jew's Dance is in Dd.3.18, etc., i.e. the Cambridge Consort manuscripts. It's really a Bergamasca, which is quite different from Newsidler's piece, but there is no reason why they should be the same. No doubt Jews were associated with many pieces of music. If I remember right, only the recorder and lute parts survive. The bandora, cittern, and bass viol parts are easy enough to reconstruct or busk. Warwick Edwards has created a fine part for the (presumably lost) violin part, which acts as a foil to the flute and lute. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. from my database: 5609 57/2 The rich Jewcopied from 1186, Brookes No. 939, keyboard 1186100v/2 ye rich Jew.Brookes, No. 939, keyboard Dd.5.21 12r ???, recorder Dd.9.33 38r/2 de Jerr a mort, lute Dd.3.18 48r The Jewes Dawnce. R Nicolson [index:] Jewes Dawnce., lute Also known as Judentanz was Kit's Almain: Instrument Tuning# ComposerPiece Source Page/No.Title in source keyboardKit's AlmainBoynton 16v-17vAlmayne keyboardKit's AlmainMS QN 2047r Mascarada lyra viol Kit's AlmainBoynton 102rAlmayne Mr Johnson voice (solo)Kit's AlmainValerius184-185 Kits Almande. luteKit's AlmainValerius186-187/1 Kits Almande. cittern Kit's AlmainValerius187/2 Kits Almande. keyboardKit's AlmainWitzendorff 34v-36r Englisch Mascharad oder dass Glück ganz wanckelmütig ist luteKit's AlmainSwan69v-70r Ballet keyboardKit's AlmainDralliusNo. 63 Juden Tantz. / Ex clavi. G.bmol Rainer adS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Göran, thank you for your help. In the meantime I also found a facsimile of the original print in German tabulature. Together with your ft2 it helps me to create a performing edition, which I will send you as soon as it is ready. Best regards Hermann PS.: Are there any opinions about the original tuning advice by Neusidler? If you tune the instrument as required you get a very strange sound (bitonal), whereas if you leave the first string at the original pitch the whole peace sounds quite nice. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R. G. On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 11:10 schrieben Sie: Dear all, I have a rather urgent request as I was invited to play a short concert at a symposion in Austria: Jews and Christians in the Medieval and renaissance. I was especially asked to play the Judentanz by Neusidler. I have also learned that there are some other Jew's dances by Heckel, Judenkunig and others. Has anybody of you a copy of these pieces and can send me a pdf or jpeg or similar file? The problem is that I have no time to wait for a bookorder by snailmail as I still have to prepare and practice the music. Normally I buy all the books I am playing out of and the rest of the program is taken from them but this time there is too little time to order them from abroad. If there is an interesting piece maybe in the National Bibliothek Vienna let me know, I can try to go for it. If you have any recent information about the tuning of the Neusidler Judentanz I would appreciate your help. Best regards Hermann Platzer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch?
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
There is also an English consort version of the jew's dance. Alain G.R. Crona wrote: Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R. G. On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 11:10 schrieben Sie: Dear all, I have a rather urgent request as I was invited to play a short concert at a symposion in Austria: Jews and Christians in the Medieval and renaissance. I was especially asked to play the Judentanz by Neusidler. I have also learned that there are some other Jew's dances by Heckel, Judenkunig and others. Has anybody of you a copy of these pieces and can send me a pdf or jpeg or similar file? The problem is that I have no time to wait for a bookorder by snailmail as I still have to prepare and practice the music. Normally I buy all the books I am playing out of and the rest of the program is taken from them but this time there is too little time to order them from abroad. If there is an interesting piece maybe in the National Bibliothek Vienna let me know, I can try to go for it. If you have any recent information about the tuning of the Neusidler Judentanz I would appreciate your help. Best regards Hermann Platzer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch?
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
I have to admit that this is not easy to read - mostly because of the use of the old german string names which I need to translate into modern use for myself to make sense out of this. I'll try a translatiom later - first have to sort it. The end is easy: The yews dance has to be played very fast. otherwise it doesn't sound well. The rest follows soon (I've just read it to my son, age 10 and he didn't understood a word of that text :-)) Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 20:54 schrieb G.R. Crona: Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R. G. On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 11:10 schrieben Sie: Dear all, I have a rather urgent request as I was invited to play a short concert at a symposion in Austria: Jews and Christians in the Medieval and renaissance. I was especially asked to play the Judentanz by Neusidler. I have also learned that there are some other Jew's dances by Heckel, Judenkunig and others. Has anybody of you a copy of these pieces and can send me a pdf or jpeg or similar file? The problem is that I have no time to wait for a bookorder by snailmail as I still have to prepare and practice the music. Normally I buy all the books I am playing out of and the rest of the program is taken from them but this time there is too little time to order them from abroad. If there is an interesting piece maybe in the National Bibliothek Vienna let me know, I can try to go for it. If you have any recent information about the tuning of the Neusidler Judentanz I would appreciate your help. Best regards Hermann Platzer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch? -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch?
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
It is in Morlaye's First book of consort lessone, and is by Nicolson. ajn - Original Message - From: Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 3:28 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. There is also an English consort version of the jew's dance. Alain G.R. Crona wrote: Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R. G. On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 11:10 schrieben Sie: Dear all, I have a rather urgent request as I was invited to play a short concert at a symposion in Austria: Jews and Christians in the Medieval and renaissance. I was especially asked to play the Judentanz by Neusidler. I have also learned that there are some other Jew's dances by Heckel, Judenkunig and others. Has anybody of you a copy of these pieces and can send me a pdf or jpeg or similar file? The problem is that I have no time to wait for a bookorder by snailmail as I still have to prepare and practice the music. Normally I buy all the books I am playing out of and the rest of the program is taken from them but this time there is too little time to order them from abroad. If there is an interesting piece maybe in the National Bibliothek Vienna let me know, I can try to go for it. If you have any recent information about the tuning of the Neusidler Judentanz I would appreciate your help. Best regards Hermann Platzer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch?
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
The quint should be tuned to + (et) which looks like the t' that is given by mistake in the instructions for the top course. That is, one tunes the top course to the FIFTH fret on the II course(+), not the fourth fret on the II course (=t).. So, (G)_d_d_a_d'_g'. Notice that the first cipher and others have lines above them. So the first note is I:h. (=k withline in German tablature) here are Newsidler's names for the courses: I:Quint Saitte II: Klein Saitte III: Mitl Saitte IV: Klein Brummer V: Mitl Brummer VI: Gross Brummer ajn - Original Message - From: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R. G. On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 11:10 schrieben Sie: Dear all, I have a rather urgent request as I was invited to play a short concert at a symposion in Austria: Jews and Christians in the Medieval and renaissance. I was especially asked to play the Judentanz by Neusidler. I have also learned that there are some other Jew's dances by Heckel, Judenkunig and others. Has anybody of you a copy of these pieces and can send me a pdf or jpeg or similar file? The problem is that I have no time to wait for a bookorder by snailmail as I still have to prepare and practice the music. Normally I buy all the books I am playing out of and the rest of the program is taken from them but this time there is too little time to order them from abroad. If there is an interesting piece maybe in the National Bibliothek Vienna let me know, I can try to go for it. If you have any recent information about the tuning of the Neusidler Judentanz I would appreciate your help. Best regards Hermann Platzer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch?
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
Here follows the yew's dance and who wants to play it has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning. First tune the Mittleren Brummer (c - assuming G-Tuning) and the klein Saitten (small string) which is next to the mittleren Brummer (I assume the f is meant) equal to the 4 (german tab letter - the tone d). And the small Brummer (the f) should be equal to the mittlerer Brummer (the c) before we retuned it. the Mittlerer Brummer (c) and the strings in neighborhood have to have all a equal tuning and sound equal to the number 4 (german tab letter 4 - the d) and the upper quint string should be tuned like a t (german tab letter - a g#) and so the tuning is right. one may like to play many other dances on that tuning. Not very clear to me which tuning is meant ... the highest string (g) should be g# the second course should be d the third isn't clear (d?) the 4th in C or d? (all courses should sound equal to d) the 5th in D Maybe someone else gets it sorted better than I do ... Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 20:54 schrieb G.R. Crona: Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R. G. On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 11:10 schrieben Sie: Dear all, I have a rather urgent request as I was invited to play a short concert at a symposion in Austria: Jews and Christians in the Medieval and renaissance. I was especially asked to play the Judentanz by Neusidler. I have also learned that there are some other Jew's dances by Heckel, Judenkunig and others. Has anybody of you a copy of these pieces and can send me a pdf or jpeg or similar file? The problem is that I have no time to wait for a bookorder by snailmail as I still have to prepare and practice the music. Normally I buy all the books I am playing out of and the rest of the program is taken from them but this time there is too little time to order them from abroad. If there is an interesting piece maybe in the National Bibliothek Vienna let me know, I can try to go for it. If you have any recent information about the tuning of the Neusidler Judentanz I would appreciate your help. Best regards Hermann Platzer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch? -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch?
Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc.
great! Arthur's reading makes much more sense than mine. I've misread the t and even have put it into a g# :-) Sorry for my bad reading of the instruction. Funny to get german better explained by an american :-)! Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 22:53 schrieben Sie: The quint should be tuned to + (et) which looks like the t' that is given by mistake in the instructions for the top course. That is, one tunes the top course to the FIFTH fret on the II course(+), not the fourth fret on the II course (=t).. So, (G)_d_d_a_d'_g'. Notice that the first cipher and others have lines above them. So the first note is I:h. (=k withline in German tablature) here are Newsidler's names for the courses: I:Quint Saitte II: Klein Saitte III: Mitl Saitte IV: Klein Brummer V: Mitl Brummer VI: Gross Brummer ajn - Original Message - From: G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Judentanz Neusidler etc. Hier volget der Juden Tantz, und wer ihn schlagen will, der muss die Lautten anders ziehen. Nun volget der Zug/ zieh Erstlich den Mitlern Brumer und die klein Saitten/ die Newen dem mitl Brumer stet/ der zieffer furn/gleich als da 4. und den klein Brumer. Muss gleich lautten/wie der mitl Brumer wie vor ge- melt der mitl Brumer und die Saitten dar Neben/ und der klein Brumer müssen all drey eine gleiche Stimme haben/ und der zieffer viere als da 4 gleich lautten/ und die Obrer quint Saitten muss man dem t gleich ziehen/ so ist der zug recht. Man mag auch vil ander tentz auch auff dem zug schlagen. Der Juden Tantz er muss gar ser be- hendt / geschlagen werden / sonst laut er nicht wohl. I get the end: You can play many other dances with this tuning. Otherwise, the german mostly eludes me... Here follows the Jew's dance. And whoever wants to play it, has to tune the lute differently. Here follows the tuning: First, tune the 5th course and the small strings... after that I get lost. B.R. G. On 6/4/05, Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you can read german tablature try http://aris.ss.uci.edu/rgarfias/jtanz/jtanz.html There is a facsimile of the piece Best wishes Thomas Am Samstag, 4. Juni 2005 11:10 schrieben Sie: Dear all, I have a rather urgent request as I was invited to play a short concert at a symposion in Austria: Jews and Christians in the Medieval and renaissance. I was especially asked to play the Judentanz by Neusidler. I have also learned that there are some other Jew's dances by Heckel, Judenkunig and others. Has anybody of you a copy of these pieces and can send me a pdf or jpeg or similar file? The problem is that I have no time to wait for a bookorder by snailmail as I still have to prepare and practice the music. Normally I buy all the books I am playing out of and the rest of the program is taken from them but this time there is too little time to order them from abroad. If there is an interesting piece maybe in the National Bibliothek Vienna let me know, I can try to go for it. If you have any recent information about the tuning of the Neusidler Judentanz I would appreciate your help. Best regards Hermann Platzer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch? -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch?
