Re: Old religious paintings.
RT, this is stale thread, but it is so seldom I agree with you I have to revive it. Except it sounds a lot like insurances. An appropriate way would be precocious-looking likenesses of Jesus. RT Perfect, and now you all understand the English language. When in doubt re-cast the sentence. That is a dictum from the best practical practicioner of the language today (and I am his desciple, having been quoted in his oringinal book On Language). Wm. Safire (in his language columns, not his weekday job as political commentator) is probably the most fair and balanced guru of usage and grammar. Not too strict and not too liberal. He would prefer that you say medium if you are referring to a single source of news, rather than media. But he is quite happy with stadiums for multiple football fields - as stadia might be a bit too much. Too often those with some language mistake the vernacular, the Latin and the Greek. With no offense intended to any of a differing sexual preference I make an example. The popular press has come up with a word, homophobic, to imply a fear of homosexuals. They confuse the Latin homo (meaning mankind) with the Greek homo (meaning same), then they combine it with the Greek phobia. So in Greek a homophobic would be someone who was afraid of being bored by sameness (ok, I stretched the point). Pardon me for picking a sensitive topic to some for the example, but it was an obvious choice as the words are used often. In the Latin the Christ's name is Jesu, so the us ending doesn't apply. Enough, RT has it right, recast the sentence. Churchill was once accused of ending a sentence with a preposition, he promised that ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I shall not put. English grammar is flexible, it comes from a mish-mosh of Gaelic (Briton), Angles, Saxons and Norman French - and when Caxton put it down in the first dictionary of English he was doing a bit of guessing. How can a non native deal with a language where the word present is a verb meaning to give if the accent is on the last(or in the US the first) syllable, or a noun meaning gift if the accent is equal on the syllables, or a place in time if the accent is also equal. A fine language with lots of meaning, but one that can lead to misinterpretation if not cast properly. In Fragment of an Agon T.S. Eliot put this phrase in the mouth of his Sweeney. I've gotta use words when I talk to you. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
Dear Howard and Rainer, The plural doesn't exist. Jesus was unique. Tell that to John Cleese! (For those of you who remember Cleese as Michaelangelo in one of my favorite Monty Python skits). -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Caroline Usher wrote: At 11:47 PM 9/18/2004 -0500, you wrote: Many old paintings (of skill and sensitivity) depict a young woman holding a nude Christ, with the baby wearing an adult-like face and making a religious hand symbol. Could you cite an example or two so I can see what you are talking about? These do not look like baby faces to me. Especially around the eyes. I guess it (the adult face) was a symbol of authority which the folks back then needed to feel secure, like they needed kings and an infallible omnipotent Church. http://www.getty.edu/art/collections/objects/oz574.html http://virtualart.admin.tomsk.ru/lippi/p-lippi1.htm http://www.dia.org/collections/euroart/renaissance/77.3.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
Herbert Ward wrote These do not look like baby faces to me. Especially around the eyes. I guess it (the adult face) was a symbol of authority which the folks back then needed to feel secure, like they needed kings and an infallible omnipotent Church. These are actually pretty mild examples of precocious-looking Jesuses (Jesi?). In earlier paintings that still have Byzantine traits, the Child is a miniature adult. The whole point, of course, is that this is no ordinary child, but from the very first has all the traits of the adult Jesus. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Old religious paintings.
-Original Message- From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:02 PM Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Old religious paintings. Herbert Ward wrote These do not look like baby faces to me. Especially around the eyes. I guess it (the adult face) was a symbol of authority which the folks back then needed to feel secure, like they needed kings and an infallible omnipotent Church. These are actually pretty mild examples of precocious-looking Jesuses (Jesi?). I think it's u-declination. Therefore the plural is Jesus with a long u. Best wishes, Rainer aus dem Spring IS department, development Tel.: +49 211-5296-355 Fax.: +49 211-5296-405 SMTP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** CONFIDENTIALITY DISCLAIMER The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy this message, delete any copies held on your systems and notify the sender immediately. You should not retain, copy or use this email for any purpose outside of any NDA currently existing between Toshiba Electronics Europe GmbH and yourselves. ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Old religious paintings.
Spring, aus dem, Rainer [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I think it's u-declination. Therefore the plural is Jesus with a long u. It isn't. In Hebrew / Aramaic, it is Yeshu, with both long and closed e and u (like in French nee and in English zoo). It is not certain which syllable was stressed (surviving Biblical Hebrew stresses last syllables). Hebrew lacks endings for cases. Literally transposed into Greek, the form of the name was and is IHCOYC (i-êsûs, with long, stressed last syllable). Conjugated forms, so to say, are IHCOYC (nom.) IHCOY (gen.) IHCOY (dat.) IHCOYN (acc.) IHCOY (voc.). Transposed into Latin, it is IESVS with oblique cases IESV (gen.) IESV (dat.) IESVM (acc.) IESV (voc.). Obviously, it was pronounced like in Greek (i-êsûs, with stressed last syllable), not like today. Both Greek and Latin mark the difference between nominative case and oblique cases but do not actually conjugate the name (it would have to be IESVS, IESVS (long closed u), IESVI, IESVM, O IESVS), either because of its sanctity or simply because it was foreign. There is no evidence for plural forms of given names in either Hebrew, Greek, or Latin in ancient times. However, I'm wondering, Herbert, if you want to know all of this or if you'd rather just like to express your opinions about all of those strange old things. -- Best, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] , [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
However, I'm wondering, Herbert, if you want to know all of this or if you'd rather just like to express your opinions about all of those strange old things. He has to be careful, there are a few herbivores on the list... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
Dear Sirs: I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the recent spate of postings concerning English, German, Hebrew and Greek grammar. I would never dream of bringing up such things myself, and I'm as pedantic as they come. Rear Admiral Howard Posner, M.P., OBE, KBE, JD UCLA PS: It may be appropriate for Mr. Turovsky to say precocious-looking 'likenesses' of Jesus, but it would be the Jesice themselves, not the likenesses that are precocious. PPS: Mr. Rösel is informative as always, but I believe all references to Jesus in Hebrew sources postdate the (Greek) Christian bible, which would mean that Yeshu in the Hebrew sources is a transliteration of the Greek IHCOYC (nom.) IHCOY (gen.) IHCOY (dat.) IHCOYN (acc.) IHCOY (voc.) and not vice versa. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
PPS: Mr. R? is informative as always, but I believe all references to Jesus in Hebrew sources postdate the (Greek) Christian bible, which would mean that Yeshu in the Hebrew sources is a transliteration of the Greek IHCOYC (nom.) IHCOY (gen.) IHCOY (dat.) IHCOYN (acc.) IHCOY (voc.) and not vice versa. If you go to Russia for awhile you'd be called Govard. However if you return to LA you would inevitably revert to Howard. So what you have is a translit of a translit that is exactly like the original item. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
PS: It may be appropriate for Mr. Turovsky to say precocious-looking 'likenesses' of Jesus, but it would be the Jesice themselves, not the likenesses that are precocious. That's why I used the looking modifier. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
Rear Admiral Howard Posner, M.P., Last time we met (17 years...) you were admirably callipygian. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
There is, by the way, a very early version of the Bible in Aramaic in existence, containing the New Testament as well (and, so, the testimony to Yêshû meshîha) and probably predating the oldest surviving Hebrew manuscripts, which is called the Peshitta. Interesting. General adoption of Hebrew by the Jews was rather late in the 1st millennium, and politically motivated, to supercede the aspirations of Syriacs to be the Chosen People. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
Mathias Rösel wrote: the very name Jesus does occur in Hebrew sources which predate the New Testament, indeed. Have a look into the books of Ezrah/Nehemya (26 times, especially Ezrah 2-3, Nehemya 7-9), if you will. I will, but my point was that the person Christians know as Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus Christ is mentioned in Hebrew sources only after he is mentioned in Greek sources, so it had to be be surmised from the Greek what he called himself in Hebrew, or so I surmise. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
mentioned in Greek sources, so it had to be be surmised from the Greek what he called himself in Hebrew, or so I surmise. You meant Aramaic. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
At 11:47 PM 9/18/2004 -0500, you wrote: Many old paintings (of skill and sensitivity) depict a young woman holding a nude Christ, with the baby wearing an adult-like face and making a religious hand symbol. Could you cite an example or two so I can see what you are talking about? There are certainly many paintings showing Mary and the infant Christ, sometimes with St. Joseph, St. Ann, et al.. Their popularity in the late Middle Ages has to do with interest in Mary and the incarnation and the promise of salvation, in contrast to earlier emphasis on Christ as Lord of All or Judge. It goes along with emphasis on Jesus' suffering on the cross; they all relate to the more human, emotional side of the Christian story. Jesus was born as a babe, just like us; Jesus suffered temptation and pain, just like us. The musicians seen in this genre are typically those of the bas or soft consort, like lute and harp, representing the quiet intimacy of the family setting (and drawing the viewer therein). Caroline * Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155 Box 91000 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
On 19 Sep 2004, Mathias Rösel wrote: First, there is the creed that Christ died for our sins (i. e. for us, ... baby but Christ who delivers entire man from the curse of sin. Thank you. But, no modern depiction of Jesus emphasizes Him as a nude man-baby. For example, I doubt that modern Baptists have a nude in any of their churches. Your message, however true, well-intentioned, or appreciated, does not address this difference in style and taste between 2004 and 1570, an understanding of which might, I suspect, be applied to the playing of lute music. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: But, no modern depiction of Jesus emphasizes Him as a nude man-baby. For example, I doubt that modern Baptists have a nude in any of their churches. .. address this difference in style and taste between 2004 and 1570, an understanding of which might, I suspect, be applied to the playing of lute music. Sorry I didn't get this special point. Let me have a second try. Mary with Jesus on her arms ceased to be depicted, after Reformation took place, in regions with protestant sovereigns (cuius regio eius religio), and in western Europe it became a subject for Roman Catholic painters, mainly. The reason is, Mary was understood as representing the (Catholic) Church. Protestant, i. e. lutheran, painters shifted their focus on Christ's suffering in place of man and, so, depicted the young man, and there was no problem with nudeness, in general, just look at their paintings: you can see almost everything. There are, however, exceptions from this focus, e. g. the adoration of the sages from East. On the other hand, there was and is the Reformed Church (Calvinists) with its many, many branches especially in the Americas (Baptists are one of them). From the very beginnings in Calvin's days (mid-16th century), they used to remove pictures, depictions, statues etc, from their houses and churches and destroyed them because of the 1st, or 2nd, of the Ten Commandments, depending on numeration. You will not see either Jesus or a nude nor any depiction in a proper Baptist church. It's not a difference in taste or style between 1570 and today, but it has been a fundamental theological difference ever since. Calvinists were suspicious against traditional stuff in general. That's why they had no organs in their churches, and, of course, lutes were strictly forbidden (tablatures were considered, so to say, the devil's prayer book). Music, if any, had to be based on the Bible, e. g. a-capella psalm chanting. That's why things like shape note singing were developed (previous long thread on the list). So much for this. Hope it helps. -- Best, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] , [EMAIL PROTECTED] , [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wanted: The City's Best (Jeremiah 29:7) Ecumenical Stadtkirchentag of Bremen September 19-26! http://www.stadtkirchentag-bremen.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Given that lutenists' musical literature was contemporary with these paintings, perhaps one may ask here how a modern person can understand the esthetics which produced these paintings. I shall make a cautious attempt. Please, note: not a sermon, but an attempted explanation of symbols. First, there is the creed that Christ died for our sins (i. e. for us, atoning for our sins) and was resurrected on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor 15). Second, there were Gospels which spell out this creed in telling about the life of Christ (Gospels are not biographies but elaborated creeds). The Gospels according to Matthew and Luke in particular elaborate the creed as regards Christ's infancy: Even as a newborn child, Christ shared human condition (born *outside*) on his way to cause man's forthcoming redemption (Matthew has foreign, i. e. heathen, astrologers worshipping the Saviour, whereas Luke has the heavenly hosts singing of God's gracious choice to now send the Redeemer). That is why on old Europe's religious paintings that little child on Mary's arm isn't actually a sweet little stinky and harmless baby but Christ who delivers entire man from the curse of sin. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] , [EMAIL PROTECTED] , [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wanted: The City's Best (Jeremiah 29:7) Ecumenical Stadtkirchentag of Bremen September 19-26! http://www.stadtkirchentag-bremen.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
