Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 2012-10-17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: >> Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the >> LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial >> tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for "greyed out maybe, >> which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and >> marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so >> important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would >> be a bad sign for a mainly "scientific" writing application. Maybe we can gain clarity renaming Insert>Note>... to Insert>Comment>LyX Note >Comment >Greyed out (or drop/merge the "greyed out" with branches...). Günter
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > What about "Version Control" operations ? They probably affect the whole > document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find > that stuff under "File". No, this really belongs to file, not to the document content. > Again, inserting figures is very very common, You said it yourself ;) While we can discuss Date or Preview items, killing Graphics looks really harsh for whatever reason. Pavel
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 18/10/2012 11:34, Liviu Andronic a écrit : On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: I wonder if the term "Annotation" for LyX Notes and comments would be better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and marginal notes. Actually this would be a good idea. Yes, this looks like a good term. JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: > I wonder if the term "Annotation" for LyX Notes and comments would be > better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and > marginal notes. > Actually this would be a good idea. > How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs? > PDF readers use the term 'annotation' for roughly what LyX calls notes/comments. See [1] but also in Evince > Side Pane > Annotations. [1] http://www.qtrac.eu/viewpdf.html Liviu
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
2012/10/18 Jürgen Spitzmüller : > How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs? "Comments", AFAICS. Jürgen
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
2012/10/18 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes : > Yes, but the point is that there is note and note. I agree that our current > UI is not very good at separating the two (markup vs author annotation), but > it is not a reason for making this worse. I wonder if the term "Annotation" for LyX Notes and comments would be better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and marginal notes. How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs? BTW, in the German translation, notes are (correctly) translated as "Notiz". This already disambiguates the phenomenon. Nobody would subsume footnotes under "Notiz" (but rather under "Anmerkungen"). This also means that German users would be completely lost if footnotes and margin notes would indeed be added to the "Notes"/"Notiz" submenu. Jürgen
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more > delicate. > I'm no native English speaker either, but from my experience with FOSS programs the Source and Messages thingies that LyX has are 'panes'. However the Outline thingy looks more like a 'panel' to me; at least this is how Opera and Midori call a similar artefact that can be popped up on the left hand side. But Evince has another such artefact and calls it 'Side pane'. So this paragraph really is useless. Liviu
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 18/10/2012 11:15 a.m., Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Le 15/10/12 22:41, Andrew Parsloe a écrit : Anyone who can drop "pleonastic" into a sentence hardly needs a native English speaker. Well I am able to check in a dictionary that the French word "pléonastique" actually translates to English (it looks like it comes from English actually). But of course looking like somebody who casually drops "pleonastic" in a sentence is an art :) But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more delicate. JMarc I should have added in relation to pane/panel, that windows have panes, doors have panels -- which encourages flights of fancy: instead of a windowing system, a dooring system, where one has panels with door knobs and keys and locks to be opened with appropriate mouse drags and clicks, and instead of drop-down menus, little doors that open ... Andrew
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 18/10/12 00:40, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit : On 17/10/12 23:19, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently). Further alternative/proposal: what about a single menu entry "Insert->Note...", popping up a dialog, with a radio-box allowing to choose the type of note (and I can easily imagine a text/label right on its right explaining what these different notes are), where "footnote" would be automatically selected (so just type Enter and you're done with that -- most common type of note I guess), then "marginal note" could be the 2nd choice (so, [Down][Enter] and you're down), and so on... ? I'm just realizing there's already such a dialog: context-menu on LyX note, for example, then Settings... So, what's really bad in making the UI for all of these notes all the same ? Want a note ? Just insert a note, then you get immediately the dialog, you pick your choice (and see these notes shortly explained if you're newbie), then click [Ok] button, or [Enter]. You could even have a preference voice "\default_note_type" with possible types "ask" (dialog), "LyX", "footnote", "marginal", ... (you got the point). Yes, but the point is that there is note and note. I agree that our current UI is not very good at separating the two (markup vs author annotation), but it is not a reason for making this worse. In some way, LyX Note could belong somewhere with change tracking, as an authoring tool of some sort. But I do not have anything to propose. It could also be a special branch which is (always?) off. JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 17/10/12 23:19, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently). Further alternative/proposal: what about a single menu entry "Insert->Note...", popping up a dialog, with a radio-box allowing to choose the type of note (and I can easily imagine a text/label right on its right explaining what these different notes are), where "footnote" would be automatically selected (so just type Enter and you're done with that -- most common type of note I guess), then "marginal note" could be the 2nd choice (so, [Down][Enter] and you're down), and so on... ? I'm just realizing there's already such a dialog: context-menu on LyX note, for example, then Settings... So, what's really bad in making the UI for all of these notes all the same ? Want a note ? Just insert a note, then you get immediately the dialog, you pick your choice (and see these notes shortly explained if you're newbie), then click [Ok] button, or [Enter]. You could even have a preference voice "\default_note_type" with possible types "ask" (dialog), "LyX", "footnote", "marginal", ... (you got the point). Comments welcome. T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 18/10/12 00:30, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit : Do you mean: moving "Insert->Branch" to document ? AFAIU, it's really a local edit, so it should stay in Insert. Yes. What about "Version Control" operations ? They probably affect the whole document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find that stuff under "File". What about "File->New Window" / Close Window ? These 2 just seem to me they belong to the View menu ? Or create a Window(s) menu? Other programs tend to use that. If you're about to complain about using keyboard to reach the menu entry without using the mouse, I can anticipate that Ctrl+G, on my Ubuntu, produces a "telephone" character -- why ? why doesn't it activate Insert->Graphics ? This could be added indeed. JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 09/10/12 14:44, Charles de Miramon wrote: Like Pavel, I find the Insert menu too long. Maybe, everything that relates to the life cycle of the document (annotations, branches) could go into 'Document' Do you mean: moving "Insert->Branch" to document ? AFAIU, it's really a local edit, so it should stay in Insert. What about "Version Control" operations ? They probably affect the whole document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find that stuff under "File". What about "File->New Window" / Close Window ? These 2 just seem to me they belong to the View menu ? And, conceputally speaking, perhaps Insert->Graphics... should be grouped with Insert->File->... sub-menu (think of Insert->File->ExternalMaterial). Again, inserting figures is very very common, and I guess there's a nice button readily available on the toolbar. If you're about to complain about using keyboard to reach the menu entry without using the mouse, I can anticipate that Ctrl+G, on my Ubuntu, produces a "telephone" character -- why ? why doesn't it activate Insert->Graphics ? Of course, everyone opinion is very welcome. UI is so subjective T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for "greyed out maybe, which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would be a bad sign for a mainly "scientific" writing application. For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently). I see your point. I'm just trying to think from a new user perspective: -) I need to insert a footnote -) so I go straight to Insert-> menu, -) scroll it down, find the Note-> sub-menu, -) cannot see any "footnote" -) conclusion: "this tool doesn't even support footnotes :-)!" -) sudo apt-get purge LyX :-(... exacerbating the last step/conclusions of course, it's just that we all probably know very well how to customize the UI, etc (and surely we all agree that what LyX probably lacks is a "Tools->Customize menus..." tool for re-arranging menus). The experienced user knows where things are, he's used to that. A UI is effective when it allows new users to find stuff intuitively and quickly, isn't it ? One last thing: how does one add an "end note" in LyX ? Bye, T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 15/10/12 22:41, Andrew Parsloe a écrit : Anyone who can drop "pleonastic" into a sentence hardly needs a native English speaker. Well I am able to check in a dictionary that the French word "pléonastique" actually translates to English (it looks like it comes from English actually). But of course looking like somebody who casually drops "pleonastic" in a sentence is an art :) But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more delicate. JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 17/10/2012 12:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit : Agreed. Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for "greyed out maybe, which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would be a bad sign for a mainly "scientific" writing application. +1 JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
2012/10/17 Pavel Sanda: > Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: >> However, nobody seems to care about "marginal note". So, I would readily >> move it to the Insert->Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in >> the "crowded" Insert menu. > > I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together... Agreed. Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for "greyed out maybe, which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would be a bad sign for a mainly "scientific" writing application. For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently). Jürgen
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 17/10/2012 10:30, Pavel Sanda a écrit : Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: However, nobody seems to care about "marginal note". So, I would readily move it to the Insert->Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in the "crowded" Insert menu. I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together... I also noticed that the [Insert]->[LyX Note] function is called merely "Insert Note" in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to "Insert LyX Note" as well ? As you wish ;) LyX Note is a bad name I think. "Sticky note?" "Yellow note?" "Note?" JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > However, nobody seems to care about "marginal note". So, I would readily > move it to the Insert->Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in > the "crowded" Insert menu. I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together... > I also noticed that the [Insert]->[LyX Note] function is called merely > "Insert Note" in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to "Insert LyX > Note" as well ? As you wish ;) > (assuming the user grasps the difference between a LyX note and a "comment" > note -- what is it supposed to be ? Both don't seem to show up in the PDF, > but only the "comment" goes into the latex). Exactly. Those three in note submenu can be also easily "mutated" one to another, see e.g. context menu. Pavel
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 11/10/12 17:48, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: 2012/10/11 Pavel Sanda : Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu Footnote to submenu? No please (this is a too important feature). So, the footnote seems critical and everyone wants it very handy. Not touching it. Btw, it's quickly available through the toolbar. However, nobody seems to care about "marginal note". So, I would readily move it to the Insert->Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in the "crowded" Insert menu. I also noticed that the [Insert]->[LyX Note] function is called merely "Insert Note" in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to "Insert LyX Note" as well ? (assuming the user grasps the difference between a LyX note and a "comment" note -- what is it supposed to be ? Both don't seem to show up in the PDF, but only the "comment" goes into the latex). T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Messages should be renamed "message pane" (panel?) so it is now ("pane") LaTeX source => "LaTeX Source Pane" it doesn't show merely latex (even though it might be considered the main functionality), but also various other formats, which, ehm, from the LyX viewpoint, are not really "source", but rather "export" formats :-) ? Cannot think of a better name, for now that entry is "Source Pane" (similarly to other panes). T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 15/10/12 21:41, Andrew Parsloe wrote: The New Oxf. Dict. gives the familiar computer usage against "pane" and no such use against "panel" (but my copy of the dictionary dates from the 1990s). This suggests (but not strongly) that "pane" should be used. Pushed a couple of commits, let's see how it goes. T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Guenter Milde wrote: >However, I strongly suggest to rename it to something less missleading > than "short title". The often-discussed solution is outlined here: http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/6753#comment:2 I'll try to get this done for 2.1. Jürgen
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 2012-10-11, Kornel Benko wrote: > [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: 7bit --] > Am Donnerstag, 11. Oktober 2012 um 17:33:19, schrieb Pavel Sanda > >> Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: >> > -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu >> >> Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames >> when it comes to Insert menu we could >> a) hide not so often used entries somewhere >> - Date ->? > +1 -1 Please don't hide this, I need it in every letter I write with LyX (because the date should not update with every recompilation). >> - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?) > -1 > Used also as entry in table of content -4 It is used for optional arguments in many places (e.g. configuring lists with the enumitem module). However, I strongly suggest to rename it to something less missleading than "short title". Günter
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 15/10/2012 10:45 p.m., Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Le 13/10/2012 20:43, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit : On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: they do not fit the definition above. I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution. Absolutely +1. Right thing to do. So, one first step might be the attached one ? this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved. Yes, except that that I would rename these three entries +Item "View Outline|u" "dialog-toggle toc" Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source" Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress" "View" is pleonastic here. Would say "Outline Panel" or "Outline Pane" (is there a native English speaker in the room?". But you can commit what you have in a first step. JMarc Anyone who can drop "pleonastic" into a sentence hardly needs a native English speaker. Pane/panel: checking with the New Oxford Dictionary of English and my own understanding of the terms, outside the computer world "pane" refers specifically to a sheet of glass, "panel" to either a sheet of glass or of wood. The New Oxf. Dict. gives the familiar computer usage against "pane" and no such use against "panel" (but my copy of the dictionary dates from the 1990s). This suggests (but not strongly) that "pane" should be used. Andrew
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 13/10/2012 20:43, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit : On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: they do not fit the definition above. I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution. Absolutely +1. Right thing to do. So, one first step might be the attached one ? this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved. Yes, except that that I would rename these three entries + Item "View Outline|u" "dialog-toggle toc" Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source" Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress" "View" is pleonastic here. Would say "Outline Panel" or "Outline Pane" (is there a native English speaker in the room?". But you can commit what you have in a first step. JMarc
Re: Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Am Samstag, 13. Oktober 2012 um 19:43:48, schrieb Tommaso Cucinotta > On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > > On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > >> I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes > >> sense: they do not fit the definition above. > >> > >> I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small > >> uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution. > > > > Absolutely +1. Right thing to do. > > > > So, one first step might be the attached one ? > > this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved. > IMHO please commit, so one can became familiar with it. Kornel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: they do not fit the definition above. I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution. Absolutely +1. Right thing to do. So, one first step might be the attached one ? this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved. T. commit 2fa6a6f Author: Tommaso Cucinotta Date: Sat Oct 13 19:34:16 2012 +0100 Moved Outline to View menu, and rendering options (dvi,pdf,...) to Document menu. diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc index d371b3c..fc6073d 100644 --- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc +++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc @@ -321,12 +321,9 @@ Menuset Item "Unfold Math Macro|n" "math-macro-unfold" Item "Fold Math Macro|d" "math-macro-fold" Separator + Item "View Outline|u" "dialog-toggle toc" Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source" Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress" - ViewFormats - UpdateFormats - OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view" - OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update" Separator Item "Split View Into Left and Right Half|i" "view-split horizontal" Item "Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e" "view-split vertical" @@ -505,9 +502,13 @@ Menuset Submenu "Change Tracking|C" "document_change" OptItem "Build Program|B" "build-program" Item "LaTeX Log|L" "dialog-show latexlog" - Item "Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc" Item "Start Appendix Here|A" "appendix" Separator + ViewFormats + UpdateFormats + OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view" + OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update" + Separator Item "Compressed|m" "buffer-toggle-compression" Item "Settings...|S" "dialog-show document" End
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: they do not fit the definition above. I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution. Absolutely +1. Right thing to do. So, one first step might be the attached one ? T. commit dd83503 Author: Tommaso Cucinotta Date: Sat Oct 13 19:34:16 2012 +0100 Moved Outline to View menu, and rendering options (dvi,pdf,...) to Document menu. diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc index d371b3c..b037016 100644 --- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc +++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc @@ -321,12 +321,9 @@ Menuset Item "Unfold Math Macro|n" "math-macro-unfold" Item "Fold Math Macro|d" "math-macro-fold" Separator + Item "View Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc" Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source" Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress" - ViewFormats - UpdateFormats - OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view" - OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update" Separator Item "Split View Into Left and Right Half|i" "view-split horizontal" Item "Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e" "view-split vertical" @@ -505,9 +502,13 @@ Menuset Submenu "Change Tracking|C" "document_change" OptItem "Build Program|B" "build-program" Item "LaTeX Log|L" "dialog-show latexlog" - Item "Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc" Item "Start Appendix Here|A" "appendix" Separator + ViewFormats + UpdateFormats + OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view" + OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update" + Separator Item "Compressed|m" "buffer-toggle-compression" Item "Settings...|S" "dialog-show document" End
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > Le 13/10/2012 01:21, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit : >> On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: >>> Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement: >>> >>> -) move Outline from Document to View menu > > I would not oppose to that: View is related to showing or hiding UI > elements: outline, messages, latex source I support grouping these three together. > Messages should be renamed "message pane" (panel?) > LaTeX source => "LaTeX Source Pane" > > I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: they > do not fit the definition above. Yes. (And I hear the screaming:) Pavel
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 13/10/2012 01:21, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit : On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement: -) move Outline from Document to View menu I would not oppose to that: View is related to showing or hiding UI elements: outline, messages, latex source Messages should be renamed "message pane" (panel?) LaTeX source => "LaTeX Source Pane" I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: they do not fit the definition above. I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution. JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement: -) move Outline from Document to View menu e.g.: bug #7603 T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Pavel Sanda wrote: > Yes I expected something like this And I did not even start to read to whole thread. Jürgen
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 11/10/12 20:42, Pavel Sanda a écrit : Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea. So I would be rather careful what other people think about it. hear, hear. Yes I expected something like this :) How difficult would it be to collect information to build a heat-map of the toolbar/menus? JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 11/10/12 17:42, Liviu Andronic a écrit : However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed. If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many users ;) If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons instead of the menu. Keyboard shortcuts are more expensive in submenus. Actually having a working ubuntu HUD would be nice here. JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: > >moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea. > > So I would be rather careful what other people think about it. > > hear, hear. Yes I expected something like this :) Pavel
Re: Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Am Donnerstag, 11. Oktober 2012 um 17:33:19, schrieb Pavel Sanda > Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > > -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu > > > Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames > when it comes to Insert menu we could > a) hide not so often used entries somewhere > - Date ->? +1 > - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?) -1 Used also as entry in table of content > b) group similar things together (based on your proposals) > - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to > be joined > (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?) > However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed. > If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many > users ;) +1 > - Marginal & Foot - can also go to Note submenu. > But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries > to submenu is not good idea. > So I would be rather careful what other people think about it. At least, one can bind often used things to some key-sequence. > Pavel Kornel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
2012/10/11 Liviu Andronic : >> (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?) >> However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed. >> If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many >> users ;) >> > If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons > instead of the menu. If I count as a counter-example: I use those very often, and I always access them by menu, not toolbar. Submenu would be a PITA. Jürgen
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
2012/10/11 Pavel Sanda : > Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: >> -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu Footnote to submenu? No please (this is a too important feature). > Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames > when it comes to Insert menu we could > a) hide not so often used entries somewhere > - Date ->? > - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?) Nope, short title is used whenever an optional argument is to be inserted (e.g. in sections). >moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea. > So I would be rather careful what other people think about it. hear, hear. Jürgen > Pavel
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Pavel Sanda wrote: > Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: >> -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu > > > Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames > when it comes to Insert menu we could > a) hide not so often used entries somewhere > - Date ->? > - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?) > > b) group similar things together (based on your proposals) > - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to > be joined > This makes sense to me. > (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?) > However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed. > If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many > users ;) > If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons instead of the menu. Liviu > - Marginal & Foot - can also go to Note submenu. > But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries > to submenu is not good idea. > So I would be rather careful what other people think about it. > > Pavel -- Do you know how to read? http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader Do you know how to write? http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames when it comes to Insert menu we could a) hide not so often used entries somewhere - Date ->? - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?) b) group similar things together (based on your proposals) - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to be joined (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?) However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed. If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many users ;) - Marginal & Foot - can also go to Note submenu. But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea. So I would be rather careful what other people think about it. Pavel
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 02/10/12 02:57, Pavel Sanda wrote: The problem is that there are usually many diverging opinions. so it seems. It might be better to make more brief Insert than dissolve Document into Edit/Insert. ok, for what it matters, a few less disruptive proposals: -) aggregate insertion of references to something into an Edit sub-menu ? (Insert->Reference->, then Citation..., Cross-Reference..., Label..., anything else ?) -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu That might mitigate the issue of the Insert menu size. -) if Document-> has to contain operations affecting the whole document, then rendering with LaTeX, dvipdf, or viewing as HTML in a browser, etc..., seem all operations that deserve to be moved there. On the other hand, all the other entries in the View menu seem related to activating/deactivating certain GUI features of LyX. Furthermore, that would give more sense to have the "View LaTeX Log" menu entry in Document->..., wouldn't it ? Bye, T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Pavel Sanda wrote: > Pavel Sanda wrote: >> Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as >> his > > s/Office/LyX/ > >> Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of >> our text style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help. >> >> Pavel Why LyX could not add 'Format' and 'Table'to mimick more classical wordprocessors menu organization ? Computer screens have become wider. My wife uses mostly Libreoffice writer and sometimes LyX. She had problem finding how to center a paragraph. She found the location of the formatting menu in Edit puzzling. Like Pavel, I find the Insert menu too long. Maybe, everything that relates to the life cycle of the document (annotations, branches) could go into 'Document' Cheers, Charles
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Le 02/10/12 00:25, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit : I can only repeat myself: "Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be edited is in Edit or Insert." I would say: - whatever is related to editing at cursor position is in edit - whatever is related to the whole document is in Document - whatever is related to showing/hiding interface elements is in View. For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert->..., but an appendix from Document->... We have an UI problem with appendix, anyway. And we are supposed to add (front/back)matter one day. I can show the source and message panes from View->..., but the TOC pane stays in Document->... Probably some should move, but I am not sure where. I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View->..., but latex log stays in Document->... Message logs are related to the app, latex log related to the document. Enabling change tracking is something related to Edit-ing, but I find it in Document->... (i.e., LibreOffice has it in Edit->...) And ms office has it somewhere else. I just tried to fix (a bit of) such weirdness, well aware that changing the GUI including menus is especially a pain for whoever is already used to them. What would be interesting is to find the thorough explanation that John Levon wrote when introducing these new menus. He has lots of arguments (John was pretty serious about usability issues). JMarc
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Pavel Sanda wrote: > Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as his s/Office/LyX/ > Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of our > text > style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help. > > Pavel
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > I can only repeat myself: > "Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be > edited is in Edit or Insert." > > For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert->..., but > an appendix from Document->... It is rather toggling than inserting (not that I'm defending such weird functioning). > I can show the source and message panes from View->..., but the TOC pane > stays in Document->... > I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View->..., but > latex log stays in Document->... Right, message pane is probably my fault, but it belongs rather to Tools than View looking now, hmm? > Simply, current LyX menus seem to spread things throughout those menu > voices in a weird way, IMO of course. The problem is that there are usually many diverging opinions. There was even attempt to study Apple HIG in order to overcome this kind of flaming and the result felt like eating stones. Another angle is, for example, that menu should have reasonable number of items. Have you ever tried to show Insert menu at netbook (or our pref dialog where we just added next checkbox for that matter;)? It might be better to make more brief Insert than dissolve Document into Edit/Insert. > The alternating between editing > actions (Edit), appearance ones (View), then again editing (Insert), then > again view-related stuff (Navigate), then again editing (Document), > puzzles me quite a lot. Think of the new user facing with those menus :-)! Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as his Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of our text style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help. Pavel
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
On 01/10/12 10:04, Pavel Sanda wrote: Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: -) kill the Document menu Most of the movements look like being enforced by the idea of killing Document menu. What is the rationale for it? The distinction looks clear to me - Edit deals with the actual content of the document, while Document with document as a whole. I can only repeat myself: "Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be edited is in Edit or Insert." For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert->..., but an appendix from Document->... I can show the source and message panes from View->..., but the TOC pane stays in Document->... I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View->..., but latex log stays in Document->... Enabling change tracking is something related to Edit-ing, but I find it in Document->... (i.e., LibreOffice has it in Edit->...) Simply, current LyX menus seem to spread things throughout those menu voices in a weird way, IMO of course. The alternating between editing actions (Edit), appearance ones (View), then again editing (Insert), then again view-related stuff (Navigate), then again editing (Document), puzzles me quite a lot. Think of the new user facing with those menus :-)! I just tried to fix (a bit of) such weirdness, well aware that changing the GUI including menus is especially a pain for whoever is already used to them. T.
Re: About LyX menus & usability.
Tommaso Cucinotta wrote: > -) kill the Document menu Most of the movements look like being enforced by the idea of killing Document menu. What is the rationale for it? The distinction looks clear to me - Edit deals with the actual content of the document, while Document with document as a whole. Pavel
About LyX menus & usability.
Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement: -) move "new window" and "close window" from the File to the View menu -) move the Insert menu right after the Edit one, so to keep editing actions closer to each other -) in View menu, clearly separate entries that affect the way LyX appears, from those that actually render the document (actually, I'd be tempted to reword the View [PDF, HTML, ...] as "Render [PDF, HTML, ...]" -) move Outline from Document to View menu -) move "Start Appendix" from Document to Insert menu -) move "latex log" from Document to View -) move "change tracking" from Document to Edit -) move "document settings" from Document to Edit -) rename "Close Current View" to "Close View Split" -) move Compressed from Document to the document settings dialog -) kill the Document menu Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be edited is in Edit or Insert. As a side effect, the Document menu remains empty and could be deleted, but there's a couple of stale entries out there whose function is unknown to me. Menu "document" OptItem "Build Program|B" "build-program" Separator Item "Save in Bundled Format|F" "buffer-toggle-embedding" Item "Compressed|m" "buffer-toggle-compression" The last 2 should go into the document settings dialog, but what is "build program" ? Almost incorporated in the attached patch (just try it out and see if it makes more sense to you as well). Bye, T. diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc index ddbab89..0fc9b05 100644 --- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc +++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc @@ -29,8 +29,8 @@ Menuset # Make the first 4 menus be as much as expected as possible Submenu "File|F" "file" Submenu "Edit|E" "edit" - Submenu "View|V" "view" Submenu "Insert|I" "insert" + Submenu "View|V" "view" Submenu "Navigate|N" "navigate" Submenu "Document|D" "document" Submenu "Tools|T" "tools" @@ -60,9 +60,6 @@ Menuset Item "Print...|P" "dialog-show print" OptItem "Fax...|F" "buffer-export fax" Separator - Item "New Window|W" "window-new" - Item "Close Window|d" "window-close" - Separator Item "Exit|x" "lyx-quit" End @@ -106,6 +103,8 @@ Menuset Submenu "Paste Recent|e" "edit_pasterecent" Submenu "Paste Special" "edit_paste" Separator + Submenu "Change Tracking|C" "document_change" + Separator Item "Select Whole Inset" "inset-select-all" Item "Select All" "command-sequence buffer-begin ; buffer-end-select" Separator @@ -118,6 +117,7 @@ Menuset Submenu "Text Style|S" "edit_textstyles" LanguageSelector Item "Paragraph Settings...|P" "layout-paragraph" + Item "Document Settings...|S" "dialog-show document" Separator # Mathed b0rkage means these don't work properly OptSubmenu "Table|T" "edit_tabular" @@ -315,24 +315,31 @@ Menuset # Menu "view" + Submenu "Toolbars|b" "toolbars" + Item "Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc" + Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source" + Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress" + Separator Item "Open All Insets|O" "inset-forall * inset-toggle open" Item "Close All Insets|C" "inset-forall * inset-toggle close" Separator Item "Unfold Math Macro|n" "math-macro-unfold" Item "Fold Math Macro|d" "math-macro-fold" Separator - Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source" - Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress" + Item "Split View Into Left and Right Half|i" "view-split horizontal" + Item "Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e" "view-split vertical" + OptItem "Close View Split|w" "tab-group-close" + Separator + Item "Fullscreen|l" "ui-toggle fullscreen" + Separator + Item "New Window|W" "window-new" + Item "Close Window|d" "window-close" + Separator ViewFormats UpdateFormats OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view" OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update" - Separator - Item "Split View Into Left and Right Half|i" "view-split horizontal" - Item "Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e" "view-split vertical" - OptItem "Close Current View|w" "tab-group-close" - Item "Fullscreen|l" "ui-toggle fullscreen" - Submenu "Toolbars|b" "toolbars" + Item "LaTeX Log|L" "dialog-show latexlog" Separator Documents End @@ -377,6 +384,8 @@ Menuset Item "Program Listing[[Menu]]" "listing-insert" Item "Date" "date-insert" Item "Preview|w" "preview-insert" + Separator + Item "Start Appendix Here|A" "appendix" End Menu "insert_special" @@ -502,15 +511,10 @@ Menuset # Menu "document" - Submenu "Change Tracking|C" "document_change" OptItem "Build Program|B" "build-program" - Item "LaTeX Log|L" "dialog-show latexlog" - Item "Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc" - Item "Start Appendix Here|A" "appendix" Separator Item "Save in Bundled Format|F" "buffer-toggle-embedding" Item "Compressed|m" "buffer-toggle-compression" - Item "Settings...|S" "dial