Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/18 Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org:
 How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs?

Comments, AFAICS.

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org wrote:
 I wonder if the term Annotation for LyX Notes and comments would be
 better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and
 marginal notes.

Actually this would be a good idea.


 How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs?

PDF readers use the term 'annotation' for roughly what LyX calls
notes/comments. See [1] but also in Evince  Side Pane  Annotations.
[1] http://www.qtrac.eu/viewpdf.html

Liviu

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 18/10/2012 11:34, Liviu Andronic a écrit :

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org wrote:

I wonder if the term Annotation for LyX Notes and comments would be
better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and
marginal notes.


Actually this would be a good idea.


Yes, this looks like a good term.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 What about Version Control operations ? They probably affect the whole 
 document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find 
 that stuff under File.

No, this really belongs to file, not to the document content.

 Again, inserting figures is very very common,

You said it yourself ;) While we can discuss Date or Preview items, killing
Graphics looks really harsh for whatever reason.

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-10-17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
 Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the
 LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial
 tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for greyed out maybe,
 which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and
 marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so
 important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would
 be a bad sign for a mainly scientific writing application.

Maybe we can gain clarity renaming 
  InsertNote... to 
  InsertCommentLyX Note
Comment
Greyed out

(or drop/merge the greyed out with branches...).

Günter
  

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/18 Jürgen Spitzmüller :
> How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs?

"Comments", AFAICS.

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller  wrote:
> I wonder if the term "Annotation" for LyX Notes and comments would be
> better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and
> marginal notes.
>
Actually this would be a good idea.


> How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs?
>
PDF readers use the term 'annotation' for roughly what LyX calls
notes/comments. See [1] but also in Evince > Side Pane > Annotations.
[1] http://www.qtrac.eu/viewpdf.html

Liviu

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 18/10/2012 11:34, Liviu Andronic a écrit :

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller  wrote:

I wonder if the term "Annotation" for LyX Notes and comments would be
better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and
marginal notes.


Actually this would be a good idea.


Yes, this looks like a good term.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> What about "Version Control" operations ? They probably affect the whole 
> document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find 
> that stuff under "File".

No, this really belongs to file, not to the document content.

> Again, inserting figures is very very common,

You said it yourself ;) While we can discuss Date or Preview items, killing
Graphics looks really harsh for whatever reason.

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-10-17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
>> Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the
>> LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial
>> tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for "greyed out maybe,
>> which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and
>> marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so
>> important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would
>> be a bad sign for a mainly "scientific" writing application.

Maybe we can gain clarity renaming 
  Insert>Note>... to 
  Insert>Comment>LyX Note
>Comment
>Greyed out

(or drop/merge the "greyed out" with branches...).

Günter
  

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 However, nobody seems to care about marginal note. So, I would readily 
 move it to the Insert-Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in 
 the crowded Insert menu.

I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together...

 I also noticed that the [Insert]-[LyX Note] function is called merely 
 Insert Note in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to Insert LyX 
 Note as well ?

As you wish ;)

 (assuming the user grasps the difference between a LyX note and a comment 
 note -- what is it supposed to be ? Both don't seem to show up in the PDF, 
 but only the comment goes into the latex).

Exactly. Those three in note submenu can be also easily mutated one to 
another,
see e.g. context menu.

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 17/10/2012 10:30, Pavel Sanda a écrit :

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

However, nobody seems to care about marginal note. So, I would readily
move it to the Insert-Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in
the crowded Insert menu.


I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together...


I also noticed that the [Insert]-[LyX Note] function is called merely
Insert Note in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to Insert LyX
Note as well ?


As you wish ;)


LyX Note is a bad name I think. Sticky note? Yellow note? Note?

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/17 Pavel Sanda:
 Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 However, nobody seems to care about marginal note. So, I would readily
 move it to the Insert-Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in
 the crowded Insert menu.

 I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together...

Agreed. Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the
LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial
tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for greyed out maybe,
which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and
marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so
important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would
be a bad sign for a mainly scientific writing application.

For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be
quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via
Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently).

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 17/10/2012 12:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :

Agreed. Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the
LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial
tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for greyed out maybe,
which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and
marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so
important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would
be a bad sign for a mainly scientific writing application.


+1

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 15/10/12 22:41, Andrew Parsloe a écrit :

Anyone who can drop pleonastic into a sentence hardly needs a native
English speaker.


Well I am able to check in a dictionary that the French word 
pléonastique actually translates to English (it looks like it comes 
from English actually). But of course looking like somebody who casually 
drops pleonastic in a sentence is an art :)


But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more 
delicate.


JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the
LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial
tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for greyed out maybe,
which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and
marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so
important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would
be a bad sign for a mainly scientific writing application.

For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be
quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via
Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently).


I see your point. I'm just trying to think from a new user perspective:

-) I need to insert a footnote
-) so I go straight to Insert- menu,
-) scroll it down, find the Note- sub-menu,
-) cannot see any footnote
-) conclusion: this tool doesn't even support footnotes :-)!
-) sudo apt-get purge LyX :-(...

exacerbating the last step/conclusions of course, it's just that we all 
probably know very well how to customize the UI, etc (and surely we 
all agree that what LyX probably lacks is a Tools-Customize menus... 
tool for re-arranging menus). The experienced user knows where things 
are, he's used to that.
A UI is effective when it allows new users to find stuff intuitively and 
quickly, isn't it ?


One last thing: how does one add an end note in LyX ?

Bye,

T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 09/10/12 14:44, Charles de Miramon wrote:

Like Pavel, I find the Insert menu too long. Maybe, everything that relates
to the life cycle of the document (annotations, branches) could go into
'Document'


Do you mean: moving Insert-Branch to document ? AFAIU, it's really a 
local edit, so it should stay in Insert.


What about Version Control operations ? They probably affect the whole 
document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find 
that stuff under File.


What about File-New Window / Close Window ? These 2 just seem to me 
they belong to the View menu ?


And, conceputally speaking, perhaps Insert-Graphics... should be 
grouped with Insert-File-... sub-menu (think of 
Insert-File-ExternalMaterial). Again, inserting figures is very very 
common, and I guess there's a nice button readily available on the 
toolbar. If you're about to complain about using keyboard to reach the 
menu entry without using the mouse, I can anticipate that Ctrl+G, on my 
Ubuntu, produces a telephone character -- why ? why doesn't it 
activate Insert-Graphics ?


Of course, everyone opinion is very welcome. UI is so subjective

T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 18/10/12 00:30, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

Do you mean: moving Insert-Branch to document ? AFAIU, it's really a
local edit, so it should stay in Insert.


Yes.


What about Version Control operations ? They probably affect the whole
document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find
that stuff under File.

What about File-New Window / Close Window ? These 2 just seem to me
they belong to the View menu ?


Or create a Window(s) menu? Other programs tend to use that.


If you're about to complain about using keyboard to reach the
menu entry without using the mouse, I can anticipate that Ctrl+G, on my
Ubuntu, produces a telephone character -- why ? why doesn't it
activate Insert-Graphics ?


This could be added indeed.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 17/10/12 23:19, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be
quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via
Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently).


Further alternative/proposal: what about a single menu entry 
Insert-Note..., popping up a dialog, with a radio-box allowing to 
choose the type of note (and I can easily imagine a text/label right on 
its right explaining what these different notes are), where footnote 
would be automatically selected (so just type Enter and you're done with 
that -- most common type of note I guess), then marginal note could be 
the 2nd choice (so, [Down][Enter] and you're down), and so on... ?


I'm just realizing there's already such a dialog: context-menu on LyX 
note, for example, then Settings... So, what's really bad in making the 
UI for all of these notes all the same ? Want a note ? Just insert a 
note, then you get immediately the dialog, you pick your choice (and see 
these notes shortly explained if you're newbie), then click [Ok] button, 
or [Enter]. You could even have a preference voice \default_note_type 
with possible types ask (dialog), LyX, footnote, marginal, ... 
(you got the point).


Comments welcome.

T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 18/10/12 00:40, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

On 17/10/12 23:19, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be
quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via
Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently).


Further alternative/proposal: what about a single menu entry
Insert-Note..., popping up a dialog, with a radio-box allowing to
choose the type of note (and I can easily imagine a text/label right on
its right explaining what these different notes are), where footnote
would be automatically selected (so just type Enter and you're done with
that -- most common type of note I guess), then marginal note could be
the 2nd choice (so, [Down][Enter] and you're down), and so on... ?

I'm just realizing there's already such a dialog: context-menu on LyX
note, for example, then Settings... So, what's really bad in making the
UI for all of these notes all the same ? Want a note ? Just insert a
note, then you get immediately the dialog, you pick your choice (and see
these notes shortly explained if you're newbie), then click [Ok] button,
or [Enter]. You could even have a preference voice \default_note_type
with possible types ask (dialog), LyX, footnote, marginal, ...
(you got the point).


Yes, but the point is that there is note and note. I agree that our 
current UI is not very good at separating the two (markup vs author 
annotation), but it is not a reason for making this worse.


In some way, LyX Note could belong somewhere with change tracking, as an 
authoring tool of some sort. But I do not have anything to propose.

It could also be a special branch which is (always?) off.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Andrew Parsloe]

On 18/10/2012 11:15 a.m., Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 15/10/12 22:41, Andrew Parsloe a écrit :

Anyone who can drop pleonastic into a sentence hardly needs a native
English speaker.


Well I am able to check in a dictionary that the French word
pléonastique actually translates to English (it looks like it comes
from English actually). But of course looking like somebody who casually
drops pleonastic in a sentence is an art :)

But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more
delicate.

JMarc

I should have added in relation to pane/panel, that windows have panes, 
doors have panels -- which encourages flights of fancy: instead of a 
windowing system, a dooring system, where one has panels with door knobs 
and keys and locks to be opened with appropriate mouse drags and clicks, 
and instead of drop-down menus, little doors that open ...


Andrew

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes
lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:
 But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more
 delicate.

I'm no native English speaker either, but from my experience with FOSS
programs the Source and Messages thingies that LyX has are 'panes'.

However the Outline thingy looks more like a 'panel' to me; at least
this is how Opera and Midori call a similar artefact that can be
popped up on the left hand side. But Evince has another such artefact
and calls it 'Side pane'. So this paragraph really is useless.

Liviu

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/18 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org:
 Yes, but the point is that there is note and note. I agree that our current
 UI is not very good at separating the two (markup vs author annotation), but
 it is not a reason for making this worse.

I wonder if the term Annotation for LyX Notes and comments would be
better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and
marginal notes.

How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs?

BTW, in the German translation, notes are (correctly) translated as
Notiz. This already disambiguates the phenomenon. Nobody would
subsume footnotes under Notiz (but rather under Anmerkungen). This
also means that German users would be completely lost if footnotes and
margin notes would indeed be added to the Notes/Notiz submenu.

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> However, nobody seems to care about "marginal note". So, I would readily 
> move it to the Insert->Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in 
> the "crowded" Insert menu.

I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together...

> I also noticed that the [Insert]->[LyX Note] function is called merely 
> "Insert Note" in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to "Insert LyX 
> Note" as well ?

As you wish ;)

> (assuming the user grasps the difference between a LyX note and a "comment" 
> note -- what is it supposed to be ? Both don't seem to show up in the PDF, 
> but only the "comment" goes into the latex).

Exactly. Those three in note submenu can be also easily "mutated" one to 
another,
see e.g. context menu.

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 17/10/2012 10:30, Pavel Sanda a écrit :

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

However, nobody seems to care about "marginal note". So, I would readily
move it to the Insert->Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in
the "crowded" Insert menu.


I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together...


I also noticed that the [Insert]->[LyX Note] function is called merely
"Insert Note" in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to "Insert LyX
Note" as well ?


As you wish ;)


LyX Note is a bad name I think. "Sticky note?" "Yellow note?" "Note?"

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/17 Pavel Sanda:
> Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
>> However, nobody seems to care about "marginal note". So, I would readily
>> move it to the Insert->Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry in
>> the "crowded" Insert menu.
>
> I think margin/foot note should be rather coupled together...

Agreed. Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the
LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial
tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for "greyed out maybe,
which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and
marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so
important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would
be a bad sign for a mainly "scientific" writing application.

For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be
quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via
Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently).

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 17/10/2012 12:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :

Agreed. Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the
LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial
tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for "greyed out maybe,
which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and
marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so
important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would
be a bad sign for a mainly "scientific" writing application.


+1

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 15/10/12 22:41, Andrew Parsloe a écrit :

Anyone who can drop "pleonastic" into a sentence hardly needs a native
English speaker.


Well I am able to check in a dictionary that the French word 
"pléonastique" actually translates to English (it looks like it comes 
from English actually). But of course looking like somebody who casually 
drops "pleonastic" in a sentence is an art :)


But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more 
delicate.


JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Marginal notes and footnotes are conceptually different to the
LyX notes, despite the similar name. LyX notes are rather editiorial
tools (adressed at the author/editor; except for "greyed out maybe,
which is a problematic case in itself). Footnotes, endnotes and
marginal notes are part of the document proper. Since they are so
important in scientific writing, moving them to a second level would
be a bad sign for a mainly "scientific" writing application.

For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be
quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via
Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently).


I see your point. I'm just trying to think from a new user perspective:

-) I need to insert a footnote
-) so I go straight to Insert-> menu,
-) scroll it down, find the Note-> sub-menu,
-) cannot see any "footnote"
-) conclusion: "this tool doesn't even support footnotes :-)!"
-) sudo apt-get purge LyX :-(...

exacerbating the last step/conclusions of course, it's just that we all 
probably know very well how to customize the UI, etc (and surely we 
all agree that what LyX probably lacks is a "Tools->Customize menus..." 
tool for re-arranging menus). The experienced user knows where things 
are, he's used to that.
A UI is effective when it allows new users to find stuff intuitively and 
quickly, isn't it ?


One last thing: how does one add an "end note" in LyX ?

Bye,

T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 09/10/12 14:44, Charles de Miramon wrote:

Like Pavel, I find the Insert menu too long. Maybe, everything that relates
to the life cycle of the document (annotations, branches) could go into
'Document'


Do you mean: moving "Insert->Branch" to document ? AFAIU, it's really a 
local edit, so it should stay in Insert.


What about "Version Control" operations ? They probably affect the whole 
document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find 
that stuff under "File".


What about "File->New Window" / Close Window ? These 2 just seem to me 
they belong to the View menu ?


And, conceputally speaking, perhaps Insert->Graphics... should be 
grouped with Insert->File->... sub-menu (think of 
Insert->File->ExternalMaterial). Again, inserting figures is very very 
common, and I guess there's a nice button readily available on the 
toolbar. If you're about to complain about using keyboard to reach the 
menu entry without using the mouse, I can anticipate that Ctrl+G, on my 
Ubuntu, produces a "telephone" character -- why ? why doesn't it 
activate Insert->Graphics ?


Of course, everyone opinion is very welcome. UI is so subjective

T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 18/10/12 00:30, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

Do you mean: moving "Insert->Branch" to document ? AFAIU, it's really a
local edit, so it should stay in Insert.


Yes.


What about "Version Control" operations ? They probably affect the whole
document, so move them to Document ? However, it's quite common to find
that stuff under "File".

What about "File->New Window" / Close Window ? These 2 just seem to me
they belong to the View menu ?


Or create a Window(s) menu? Other programs tend to use that.


If you're about to complain about using keyboard to reach the
menu entry without using the mouse, I can anticipate that Ctrl+G, on my
Ubuntu, produces a "telephone" character -- why ? why doesn't it
activate Insert->Graphics ?


This could be added indeed.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 17/10/12 23:19, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be
quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via
Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently).


Further alternative/proposal: what about a single menu entry 
"Insert->Note...", popping up a dialog, with a radio-box allowing to 
choose the type of note (and I can easily imagine a text/label right on 
its right explaining what these different notes are), where "footnote" 
would be automatically selected (so just type Enter and you're done with 
that -- most common type of note I guess), then "marginal note" could be 
the 2nd choice (so, [Down][Enter] and you're down), and so on... ?


I'm just realizing there's already such a dialog: context-menu on LyX 
note, for example, then Settings... So, what's really bad in making the 
UI for all of these notes all the same ? Want a note ? Just insert a 
note, then you get immediately the dialog, you pick your choice (and see 
these notes shortly explained if you're newbie), then click [Ok] button, 
or [Enter]. You could even have a preference voice "\default_note_type" 
with possible types "ask" (dialog), "LyX", "footnote", "marginal", ... 
(you got the point).


Comments welcome.

T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 18/10/12 00:40, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

On 17/10/12 23:19, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 17/10/12 11:26, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

For my lectures, I use marginal notes quite a lot, and I would be
quite annoyed if they wouldn't be easily reachable anymore (via
Alt+E+R in my German l7n currently).


Further alternative/proposal: what about a single menu entry
"Insert->Note...", popping up a dialog, with a radio-box allowing to
choose the type of note (and I can easily imagine a text/label right on
its right explaining what these different notes are), where "footnote"
would be automatically selected (so just type Enter and you're done with
that -- most common type of note I guess), then "marginal note" could be
the 2nd choice (so, [Down][Enter] and you're down), and so on... ?

I'm just realizing there's already such a dialog: context-menu on LyX
note, for example, then Settings... So, what's really bad in making the
UI for all of these notes all the same ? Want a note ? Just insert a
note, then you get immediately the dialog, you pick your choice (and see
these notes shortly explained if you're newbie), then click [Ok] button,
or [Enter]. You could even have a preference voice "\default_note_type"
with possible types "ask" (dialog), "LyX", "footnote", "marginal", ...
(you got the point).


Yes, but the point is that there is note and note. I agree that our 
current UI is not very good at separating the two (markup vs author 
annotation), but it is not a reason for making this worse.


In some way, LyX Note could belong somewhere with change tracking, as an 
authoring tool of some sort. But I do not have anything to propose.

It could also be a special branch which is (always?) off.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Andrew Parsloe]

On 18/10/2012 11:15 a.m., Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 15/10/12 22:41, Andrew Parsloe a écrit :

Anyone who can drop "pleonastic" into a sentence hardly needs a native
English speaker.


Well I am able to check in a dictionary that the French word
"pléonastique" actually translates to English (it looks like it comes
from English actually). But of course looking like somebody who casually
drops "pleonastic" in a sentence is an art :)

But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more
delicate.

JMarc

I should have added in relation to pane/panel, that windows have panes, 
doors have panels -- which encourages flights of fancy: instead of a 
windowing system, a dooring system, where one has panels with door knobs 
and keys and locks to be opened with appropriate mouse drags and clicks, 
and instead of drop-down menus, little doors that open ...


Andrew

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes
 wrote:
> But knowing which one of pane or panel is more suited to UI is more
> delicate.
>
I'm no native English speaker either, but from my experience with FOSS
programs the Source and Messages thingies that LyX has are 'panes'.

However the Outline thingy looks more like a 'panel' to me; at least
this is how Opera and Midori call a similar artefact that can be
popped up on the left hand side. But Evince has another such artefact
and calls it 'Side pane'. So this paragraph really is useless.

Liviu

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/18 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes :
> Yes, but the point is that there is note and note. I agree that our current
> UI is not very good at separating the two (markup vs author annotation), but
> it is not a reason for making this worse.

I wonder if the term "Annotation" for LyX Notes and comments would be
better. I think less people would associate that with footnotes and
marginal notes.

How are these things called in Word Processors and PDF Readers in English UIs?

BTW, in the German translation, notes are (correctly) translated as
"Notiz". This already disambiguates the phenomenon. Nobody would
subsume footnotes under "Notiz" (but rather under "Anmerkungen"). This
also means that German users would be completely lost if footnotes and
margin notes would indeed be added to the "Notes"/"Notiz" submenu.

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-10-11, Kornel Benko wrote:

 [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: 7bit --]

 Am Donnerstag, 11. Oktober 2012 um 17:33:19, schrieb Pavel Sanda 
 sa...@lyx.org
 Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
  -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert-Note sub-menu
 

 Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
 when it comes to Insert menu we could 
 a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
   - Date -?

 +1

-1 Please don't hide this, I need it in every letter I write with LyX
   (because the date should not update with every recompilation).

   - Short Title - Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)

 -1
 Used also as entry in table of content

-4 It is used for optional arguments in many places 
   (e.g. configuring lists with the enumitem module).
   
   However, I strongly suggest to rename it to something less missleading than
   short title.

Günter

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Guenter Milde wrote:
However, I strongly suggest to rename it to something less missleading
 than short title.

The often-discussed solution is outlined here:
http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/6753#comment:2

I'll try to get this done for 2.1.

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 15/10/12 21:41, Andrew Parsloe wrote:
The New Oxf. Dict. gives the familiar computer usage against pane 
and no such use against panel (but my copy of the dictionary dates 
from the 1990s). This suggests (but not strongly) that pane should 
be used.


Pushed a couple of commits, let's see how it goes.

T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Messages should be renamed message pane (panel?)


so it is now (pane)


LaTeX source = LaTeX Source Pane


it doesn't show merely latex (even though it might be considered the 
main functionality), but also various other formats, which, ehm, 
from the LyX viewpoint, are not really source, but rather export 
formats :-) ?
Cannot think of a better name, for now that entry is Source Pane 
(similarly to other panes).


T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 11/10/12 17:48, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

2012/10/11 Pavel Sanda sa...@lyx.org:

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

-) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert-Note sub-menu

Footnote to submenu? No please (this is a too important feature).


So, the footnote seems critical and everyone wants it very handy. Not 
touching it. Btw, it's quickly available through the toolbar.


However, nobody seems to care about marginal note. So, I would readily 
move it to the Insert-Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry 
in the crowded Insert menu.


I also noticed that the [Insert]-[LyX Note] function is called merely 
Insert Note in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to Insert 
LyX Note as well ?
(assuming the user grasps the difference between a LyX note and a 
comment note -- what is it supposed to be ? Both don't seem to show up 
in the PDF, but only the comment goes into the latex).


T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Guenter Milde]

On 2012-10-11, Kornel Benko wrote:

> [-- Type: text/plain, Encoding: 7bit --]

> Am Donnerstag, 11. Oktober 2012 um 17:33:19, schrieb Pavel Sanda 
> 
>> Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
>> > -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu
>> 

>> Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
>> when it comes to Insert menu we could 
>> a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
>>   - Date ->?

> +1

-1 Please don't hide this, I need it in every letter I write with LyX
   (because the date should not update with every recompilation).

>>   - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)

> -1
> Used also as entry in table of content

-4 It is used for optional arguments in many places 
   (e.g. configuring lists with the enumitem module).
   
   However, I strongly suggest to rename it to something less missleading than
   "short title".

Günter

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Guenter Milde wrote:
>However, I strongly suggest to rename it to something less missleading
> than "short title".

The often-discussed solution is outlined here:
http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/6753#comment:2

I'll try to get this done for 2.1.

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 15/10/12 21:41, Andrew Parsloe wrote:
The New Oxf. Dict. gives the familiar computer usage against "pane" 
and no such use against "panel" (but my copy of the dictionary dates 
from the 1990s). This suggests (but not strongly) that "pane" should 
be used.


Pushed a couple of commits, let's see how it goes.

T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Messages should be renamed "message pane" (panel?)


so it is now ("pane")


LaTeX source => "LaTeX Source Pane"


it doesn't show merely latex (even though it might be considered the 
main functionality), but also various other formats, which, ehm, 
from the LyX viewpoint, are not really "source", but rather "export" 
formats :-) ?
Cannot think of a better name, for now that entry is "Source Pane" 
(similarly to other panes).


T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 11/10/12 17:48, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

2012/10/11 Pavel Sanda :

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

-) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu

Footnote to submenu? No please (this is a too important feature).


So, the footnote seems critical and everyone wants it very handy. Not 
touching it. Btw, it's quickly available through the toolbar.


However, nobody seems to care about "marginal note". So, I would readily 
move it to the Insert->Note sub-menu. At least, it will be 1 less entry 
in the "crowded" Insert menu.


I also noticed that the [Insert]->[LyX Note] function is called merely 
"Insert Note" in the toolbar tooltip. Should that be changed to "Insert 
LyX Note" as well ?
(assuming the user grasps the difference between a LyX note and a 
"comment" note -- what is it supposed to be ? Both don't seem to show up 
in the PDF, but only the "comment" goes into the latex).


T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 13/10/2012 20:43, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes
sense: they do not fit the definition above.

I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.

So, one first step might be the attached one ?


this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved.


Yes, except that that I would rename these three entries
+   Item View Outline|u dialog-toggle toc
Item View Source|S dialog-toggle view-source
Item View Messages|g dialog-toggle progress

View is pleonastic here. Would say Outline Panel or Outline Pane 
(is there a native English speaker in the room?.


But you can commit what you have in a first step.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Andrew Parsloe]

On 15/10/2012 10:45 p.m., Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 13/10/2012 20:43, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes
sense: they do not fit the definition above.

I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.

So, one first step might be the attached one ?


this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved.


Yes, except that that I would rename these three entries
+Item View Outline|u dialog-toggle toc
  Item View Source|S dialog-toggle view-source
  Item View Messages|g dialog-toggle progress

View is pleonastic here. Would say Outline Panel or Outline Pane
(is there a native English speaker in the room?.

But you can commit what you have in a first step.

JMarc


Anyone who can drop pleonastic into a sentence hardly needs a native 
English speaker.


Pane/panel: checking with the New Oxford Dictionary of English and my 
own understanding of the terms, outside the computer world pane refers 
specifically to a sheet of glass, panel to either a sheet of glass or 
of wood. The New Oxf. Dict. gives the familiar computer usage against 
pane and no such use against panel (but my copy of the dictionary 
dates from the 1990s). This suggests (but not strongly) that pane 
should be used.


Andrew

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 13/10/2012 20:43, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes
sense: they do not fit the definition above.

I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.

So, one first step might be the attached one ?


this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved.


Yes, except that that I would rename these three entries
+   Item "View Outline|u" "dialog-toggle toc"
Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source"
Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress"

"View" is pleonastic here. Would say "Outline Panel" or "Outline Pane" 
(is there a native English speaker in the room?".


But you can commit what you have in a first step.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Andrew Parsloe]

On 15/10/2012 10:45 p.m., Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 13/10/2012 20:43, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes
sense: they do not fit the definition above.

I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.

So, one first step might be the attached one ?


this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved.


Yes, except that that I would rename these three entries
+Item "View Outline|u" "dialog-toggle toc"
  Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source"
  Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress"

"View" is pleonastic here. Would say "Outline Panel" or "Outline Pane"
(is there a native English speaker in the room?".

But you can commit what you have in a first step.

JMarc


Anyone who can drop "pleonastic" into a sentence hardly needs a native 
English speaker.


Pane/panel: checking with the New Oxford Dictionary of English and my 
own understanding of the terms, outside the computer world "pane" refers 
specifically to a sheet of glass, "panel" to either a sheet of glass or 
of wood. The New Oxf. Dict. gives the familiar computer usage against 
"pane" and no such use against "panel" (but my copy of the dictionary 
dates from the 1990s). This suggests (but not strongly) that "pane" 
should be used.


Andrew

Re: Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Kornel Benko]

Am Samstag, 13. Oktober 2012 um 19:43:48, schrieb Tommaso Cucinotta 
tomm...@lyx.org
 On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
  On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
  I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes 
  sense: they do not fit the definition above.
 
  I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small 
  uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.
 
  Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.
 
  So, one first step might be the attached one ?
 
 this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved.
 

IMHO please commit, so one can became familiar with it.

Kornel

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Kornel Benko]

Am Samstag, 13. Oktober 2012 um 19:43:48, schrieb Tommaso Cucinotta 

> On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> > On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> >> I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes 
> >> sense: they do not fit the definition above.
> >>
> >> I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small 
> >> uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.
> >
> > Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.
> >
> > So, one first step might be the attached one ?
> 
> this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved.
> 

IMHO please commit, so one can became familiar with it.

Kornel

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 13/10/2012 01:21, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement:

-) move Outline from Document to View menu


I would not oppose to that: View is related to showing or hiding UI 
elements: outline, messages, latex source


Messages should be renamed message pane (panel?)
LaTeX source = LaTeX Source Pane

I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: 
they do not fit the definition above.


I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small 
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


 JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
 Le 13/10/2012 01:21, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :
 On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement:

 -) move Outline from Document to View menu

 I would not oppose to that: View is related to showing or hiding UI 
 elements: outline, messages, latex source

I support grouping these three together.

 Messages should be renamed message pane (panel?)
 LaTeX source = LaTeX Source Pane

 I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: they 
 do not fit the definition above.

Yes. (And I hear the screaming:)
Pavel

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: 
they do not fit the definition above.


I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small 
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.

So, one first step might be the attached one ?

T.

commit dd83503
Author: Tommaso Cucinotta tomm...@lyx.org
Date:   Sat Oct 13 19:34:16 2012 +0100

Moved Outline to View menu, and rendering options (dvi,pdf,...) to Document menu.

diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
index d371b3c..b037016 100644
--- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
+++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
@@ -321,12 +321,9 @@ Menuset
 		Item Unfold Math Macro|n math-macro-unfold
 		Item Fold Math Macro|d math-macro-fold
 		Separator
+		Item View Outline|O dialog-toggle toc
 		Item View Source|S dialog-toggle view-source
 		Item View Messages|g dialog-toggle progress
-		ViewFormats
-		UpdateFormats
-		OptItem View Master Document|M master-buffer-view
-		OptItem Update Master Document|a master-buffer-update
 		Separator
 		Item Split View Into Left and Right Half|i view-split horizontal
 		Item Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e view-split vertical
@@ -505,9 +502,13 @@ Menuset
 		Submenu Change Tracking|C document_change
 		OptItem Build Program|B build-program
 		Item LaTeX Log|L dialog-show latexlog
-		Item Outline|O dialog-toggle toc
 		Item Start Appendix Here|A appendix
 		Separator
+		ViewFormats
+		UpdateFormats
+		OptItem View Master Document|M master-buffer-view
+		OptItem Update Master Document|a master-buffer-update
+		Separator
 		Item Compressed|m buffer-toggle-compression
 		Item Settings...|S dialog-show document
 	End

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes 
sense: they do not fit the definition above.


I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small 
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.

So, one first step might be the attached one ?


this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved.

T.

commit 2fa6a6f
Author: Tommaso Cucinotta tomm...@lyx.org
Date:   Sat Oct 13 19:34:16 2012 +0100

Moved Outline to View menu, and rendering options (dvi,pdf,...) to Document menu.

diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
index d371b3c..fc6073d 100644
--- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
+++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
@@ -321,12 +321,9 @@ Menuset
 		Item Unfold Math Macro|n math-macro-unfold
 		Item Fold Math Macro|d math-macro-fold
 		Separator
+		Item View Outline|u dialog-toggle toc
 		Item View Source|S dialog-toggle view-source
 		Item View Messages|g dialog-toggle progress
-		ViewFormats
-		UpdateFormats
-		OptItem View Master Document|M master-buffer-view
-		OptItem Update Master Document|a master-buffer-update
 		Separator
 		Item Split View Into Left and Right Half|i view-split horizontal
 		Item Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e view-split vertical
@@ -505,9 +502,13 @@ Menuset
 		Submenu Change Tracking|C document_change
 		OptItem Build Program|B build-program
 		Item LaTeX Log|L dialog-show latexlog
-		Item Outline|O dialog-toggle toc
 		Item Start Appendix Here|A appendix
 		Separator
+		ViewFormats
+		UpdateFormats
+		OptItem View Master Document|M master-buffer-view
+		OptItem Update Master Document|a master-buffer-update
+		Separator
 		Item Compressed|m buffer-toggle-compression
 		Item Settings...|S dialog-show document
 	End

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 13/10/2012 01:21, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement:

-) move Outline from Document to View menu


I would not oppose to that: View is related to showing or hiding UI 
elements: outline, messages, latex source


Messages should be renamed "message pane" (panel?)
LaTeX source => "LaTeX Source Pane"

I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: 
they do not fit the definition above.


I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small 
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


 JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> Le 13/10/2012 01:21, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :
>> On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
>>> Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement:
>>>
>>> -) move Outline from Document to View menu
>
> I would not oppose to that: View is related to showing or hiding UI 
> elements: outline, messages, latex source

I support grouping these three together.

> Messages should be renamed "message pane" (panel?)
> LaTeX source => "LaTeX Source Pane"
>
> I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: they 
> do not fit the definition above.

Yes. (And I hear the screaming:)
Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes sense: 
they do not fit the definition above.


I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small 
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.

So, one first step might be the attached one ?

T.

commit dd83503
Author: Tommaso Cucinotta 
Date:   Sat Oct 13 19:34:16 2012 +0100

Moved Outline to View menu, and rendering options (dvi,pdf,...) to Document menu.

diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
index d371b3c..b037016 100644
--- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
+++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
@@ -321,12 +321,9 @@ Menuset
 		Item "Unfold Math Macro|n" "math-macro-unfold"
 		Item "Fold Math Macro|d" "math-macro-fold"
 		Separator
+		Item "View Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc"
 		Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source"
 		Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress"
-		ViewFormats
-		UpdateFormats
-		OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view"
-		OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update"
 		Separator
 		Item "Split View Into Left and Right Half|i" "view-split horizontal"
 		Item "Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e" "view-split vertical"
@@ -505,9 +502,13 @@ Menuset
 		Submenu "Change Tracking|C" "document_change"
 		OptItem "Build Program|B" "build-program"
 		Item "LaTeX Log|L" "dialog-show latexlog"
-		Item "Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc"
 		Item "Start Appendix Here|A" "appendix"
 		Separator
+		ViewFormats
+		UpdateFormats
+		OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view"
+		OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update"
+		Separator
 		Item "Compressed|m" "buffer-toggle-compression"
 		Item "Settings...|S" "dialog-show document"
 	End

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/10/12 19:38, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

On 13/10/12 10:42, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
I also agree that moving document view/update to Document makes 
sense: they do not fit the definition above.


I think we should proceed in a quasi-reversible fashion: do small 
uncontroversial changes first instead of trying a revolution.


Absolutely +1. Right thing to do.

So, one first step might be the attached one ?


this one is better, with the shortcut key conflict resolved.

T.

commit 2fa6a6f
Author: Tommaso Cucinotta 
Date:   Sat Oct 13 19:34:16 2012 +0100

Moved Outline to View menu, and rendering options (dvi,pdf,...) to Document menu.

diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
index d371b3c..fc6073d 100644
--- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
+++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
@@ -321,12 +321,9 @@ Menuset
 		Item "Unfold Math Macro|n" "math-macro-unfold"
 		Item "Fold Math Macro|d" "math-macro-fold"
 		Separator
+		Item "View Outline|u" "dialog-toggle toc"
 		Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source"
 		Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress"
-		ViewFormats
-		UpdateFormats
-		OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view"
-		OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update"
 		Separator
 		Item "Split View Into Left and Right Half|i" "view-split horizontal"
 		Item "Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e" "view-split vertical"
@@ -505,9 +502,13 @@ Menuset
 		Submenu "Change Tracking|C" "document_change"
 		OptItem "Build Program|B" "build-program"
 		Item "LaTeX Log|L" "dialog-show latexlog"
-		Item "Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc"
 		Item "Start Appendix Here|A" "appendix"
 		Separator
+		ViewFormats
+		UpdateFormats
+		OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view"
+		OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update"
+		Separator
 		Item "Compressed|m" "buffer-toggle-compression"
 		Item "Settings...|S" "dialog-show document"
 	End

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Pavel Sanda wrote:
 Yes I expected something like this

And I did not even start to read to whole thread.

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement:

-) move Outline from Document to View menu


e.g.: bug #7603

T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Pavel Sanda wrote:
> Yes I expected something like this

And I did not even start to read to whole thread.

Jürgen

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 30/09/12 00:17, Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement:

-) move Outline from Document to View menu


e.g.: bug #7603

T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert-Note sub-menu


Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
when it comes to Insert menu we could 
a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
  - Date -?
  - Short Title - Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)

b) group similar things together (based on your proposals)
  - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to 
be joined
(do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?)
However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
users ;)
  - Marginal  Foot - can also go to Note submenu.
But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries to 
submenu is not good idea.
So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Pavel Sanda sa...@lyx.org wrote:
 Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert-Note sub-menu
 

 Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
 when it comes to Insert menu we could
 a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
   - Date -?
   - Short Title - Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)


 b) group similar things together (based on your proposals)
   - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to 
 be joined

This makes sense to me.


 (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?)
 However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
 If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
 users ;)

If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons
instead of the menu.

Liviu


   - Marginal  Foot - can also go to Note submenu.
 But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries 
 to submenu is not good idea.
 So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.

 Pavel



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/11 Pavel Sanda sa...@lyx.org:
 Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert-Note sub-menu

Footnote to submenu? No please (this is a too important feature).

 Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
 when it comes to Insert menu we could
 a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
   - Date -?
   - Short Title - Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)

Nope, short title is used whenever an optional argument is to be
inserted (e.g. in sections).

moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea.
 So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.

hear, hear.

Jürgen

 Pavel

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/11 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com:
 (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?)
 However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
 If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
 users ;)

 If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons
 instead of the menu.

If I count as a counter-example: I use those very often, and I always
access them by menu, not toolbar. Submenu would be a PITA.

Jürgen

Re: Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Kornel Benko]

Am Donnerstag, 11. Oktober 2012 um 17:33:19, schrieb Pavel Sanda sa...@lyx.org
 Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
  -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert-Note sub-menu
 
 
 Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
 when it comes to Insert menu we could 
 a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
   - Date -?

+1

   - Short Title - Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)

-1
Used also as entry in table of content

 b) group similar things together (based on your proposals)
   - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to 
 be joined
 (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?)
 However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
 If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
 users ;)

+1

   - Marginal  Foot - can also go to Note submenu.
 But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries 
 to submenu is not good idea.
 So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.

At least, one can bind often used things to some key-sequence.

 Pavel

Kornel

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Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
 moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea.
  So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.
 
 hear, hear.

Yes I expected something like this :)
Pavel

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 11/10/12 17:42, Liviu Andronic a écrit :

 However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
 If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
users ;)


If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons
instead of the menu.


Keyboard shortcuts are more expensive in submenus.

Actually having a working ubuntu HUD would be nice here.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 11/10/12 20:42, Pavel Sanda a écrit :

Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea.
 So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.


hear, hear.


Yes I expected something like this :)


How difficult would it be to collect information to build a heat-map of 
the toolbar/menus?


JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu


Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
when it comes to Insert menu we could 
a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
  - Date ->?
  - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)

b) group similar things together (based on your proposals)
  - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to 
be joined
(do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?)
However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
users ;)
  - Marginal & Foot - can also go to Note submenu.
But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries to 
submenu is not good idea.
So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Pavel Sanda  wrote:
> Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
>> -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu
> 
>
> Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
> when it comes to Insert menu we could
> a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
>   - Date ->?
>   - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)
>

> b) group similar things together (based on your proposals)
>   - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to 
> be joined
>
This makes sense to me.


> (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?)
> However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
> If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
> users ;)
>
If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons
instead of the menu.

Liviu


>   - Marginal & Foot - can also go to Note submenu.
> But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries 
> to submenu is not good idea.
> So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.
>
> Pavel



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/11 Pavel Sanda :
> Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
>> -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu

Footnote to submenu? No please (this is a too important feature).

> Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
> when it comes to Insert menu we could
> a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
>   - Date ->?
>   - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)

Nope, short title is used whenever an optional argument is to be
inserted (e.g. in sections).

>moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea.
> So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.

hear, hear.

Jürgen

> Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2012/10/11 Liviu Andronic :
>> (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?)
>> However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
>> If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
>> users ;)
>>
> If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons
> instead of the menu.

If I count as a counter-example: I use those very often, and I always
access them by menu, not toolbar. Submenu would be a PITA.

Jürgen

Re: Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Kornel Benko]

Am Donnerstag, 11. Oktober 2012 um 17:33:19, schrieb Pavel Sanda 
> Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> > -) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu
> 
> 
> Knowing well that I'm opening pandora box and risking subsequent flames
> when it comes to Insert menu we could 
> a) hide not so often used entries somewhere
>   - Date ->?

+1

>   - Short Title -> Float (I believe its to be used only with floats?)

-1
Used also as entry in table of content

> b) group similar things together (based on your proposals)
>   - Citation, Reference, Label, URL, Hyperlink are somewhat similar enough to 
> be joined
> (do you see the reason behind horizontal line after nomeclature?)
> However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
> If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
> users ;)

+1

>   - Marginal & Foot - can also go to Note submenu.
> But the same applies here as in point above - moving often used entries 
> to submenu is not good idea.
> So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.

At least, one can bind often used things to some key-sequence.

> Pavel

Kornel

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Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
> >moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea.
> > So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.
> 
> hear, hear.

Yes I expected something like this :)
Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 11/10/12 17:42, Liviu Andronic a écrit :

 However I'm not sure about moving it to submenu as you proposed.
 If you use crossref/label or citations often it could be PITA for many 
users ;)


If you really use this often, you're likely to use the toolbar buttons
instead of the menu.


Keyboard shortcuts are more expensive in submenus.

Actually having a working ubuntu HUD would be nice here.

JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 11/10/12 20:42, Pavel Sanda a écrit :

Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

moving often used entries to submenu is not good idea.
 So I would be rather careful what other people think about it.


hear, hear.


Yes I expected something like this :)


How difficult would it be to collect information to build a heat-map of 
the toolbar/menus?


JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 02/10/12 02:57, Pavel Sanda wrote:

The problem is that there are usually many diverging opinions.


so it seems.

It might be better
to make more brief Insert than dissolve Document into Edit/Insert.


ok, for what it matters, a few less disruptive proposals:
-) aggregate insertion of references to something into an Edit sub-menu 
? (Insert-Reference-, then Citation..., Cross-Reference..., Label..., 
anything else ?)

-) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert-Note sub-menu

That might mitigate the issue of the Insert menu size.

-) if Document- has to contain operations affecting the whole document, 
then rendering with LaTeX, dvipdf, or viewing as HTML in a browser, 
etc..., seem all operations that deserve to be moved there. On the other 
hand, all the other entries in the View menu seem related to 
activating/deactivating certain GUI features of LyX. Furthermore, that 
would give more sense to have the View LaTeX Log menu entry in 
Document-..., wouldn't it ?


Bye,

T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 02/10/12 02:57, Pavel Sanda wrote:

The problem is that there are usually many diverging opinions.


so it seems.

It might be better
to make more brief Insert than dissolve Document into Edit/Insert.


ok, for what it matters, a few less disruptive proposals:
-) aggregate insertion of references to something into an Edit sub-menu 
? (Insert->Reference->, then Citation..., Cross-Reference..., Label..., 
anything else ?)

-) move Marginal note (and Footnote ?) to Insert->Note sub-menu

That might mitigate the issue of the Insert menu size.

-) if Document-> has to contain operations affecting the whole document, 
then rendering with LaTeX, dvipdf, or viewing as HTML in a browser, 
etc..., seem all operations that deserve to be moved there. On the other 
hand, all the other entries in the View menu seem related to 
activating/deactivating certain GUI features of LyX. Furthermore, that 
would give more sense to have the "View LaTeX Log" menu entry in 
Document->..., wouldn't it ?


Bye,

T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Charles de Miramon]

Pavel Sanda wrote:

 Pavel Sanda wrote:
 Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as
 his
 
 s/Office/LyX/
 
 Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of
 our text style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help.
 
 Pavel

Why LyX could not add 'Format' and 'Table'to mimick more classical 
wordprocessors menu organization ?  

Computer screens have become wider. 

My wife uses mostly Libreoffice writer and sometimes LyX. She had problem 
finding how to center a paragraph. She found the location of the formatting 
menu in Edit puzzling.

Like Pavel, I find the Insert menu too long. Maybe, everything that relates 
to the life cycle of the document (annotations, branches) could go into 
'Document'  

Cheers,
Charles

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Charles de Miramon]

Pavel Sanda wrote:

> Pavel Sanda wrote:
>> Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as
>> his
> 
> s/Office/LyX/
> 
>> Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of
>> our text style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help.
>> 
>> Pavel

Why LyX could not add 'Format' and 'Table'to mimick more classical 
wordprocessors menu organization ?  

Computer screens have become wider. 

My wife uses mostly Libreoffice writer and sometimes LyX. She had problem 
finding how to center a paragraph. She found the location of the formatting 
menu in Edit puzzling.

Like Pavel, I find the Insert menu too long. Maybe, everything that relates 
to the life cycle of the document (annotations, branches) could go into 
'Document'  

Cheers,
Charles

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 02/10/12 00:25, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

I can only repeat myself:
Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be
edited is in Edit or Insert.


I would say:
- whatever is related to editing at cursor position is in edit
- whatever is related to the whole document is in Document
- whatever is related to showing/hiding interface elements is in View.


For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert-...,
but an appendix from Document-...


We have an UI problem with appendix, anyway. And we are supposed to add 
(front/back)matter one day.



I can show the source and message panes from View-..., but the TOC pane
stays in Document-...


Probably some should move, but I am not sure where.


I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View-..., but
latex log stays in Document-...


Message logs are related to the app, latex log related to the document.


Enabling change tracking is something related to Edit-ing, but I find it
in Document-... (i.e., LibreOffice has it in Edit-...)


And ms office has it somewhere else.


I just tried to fix (a bit of) such weirdness, well aware that changing
the GUI including menus is especially a pain for whoever is already used
to them.


What would be interesting is to find the thorough explanation that John 
Levon wrote when introducing these new menus. He has lots of arguments 
(John was pretty serious about usability issues).


JMarc

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 02/10/12 00:25, Tommaso Cucinotta a écrit :

I can only repeat myself:
"Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be
edited is in Edit or Insert."


I would say:
- whatever is related to editing at cursor position is in edit
- whatever is related to the whole document is in Document
- whatever is related to showing/hiding interface elements is in View.


For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert->...,
but an appendix from Document->...


We have an UI problem with appendix, anyway. And we are supposed to add 
(front/back)matter one day.



I can show the source and message panes from View->..., but the TOC pane
stays in Document->...


Probably some should move, but I am not sure where.


I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View->..., but
latex log stays in Document->...


Message logs are related to the app, latex log related to the document.


Enabling change tracking is something related to Edit-ing, but I find it
in Document->... (i.e., LibreOffice has it in Edit->...)


And ms office has it somewhere else.


I just tried to fix (a bit of) such weirdness, well aware that changing
the GUI including menus is especially a pain for whoever is already used
to them.


What would be interesting is to find the thorough explanation that John 
Levon wrote when introducing these new menus. He has lots of arguments 
(John was pretty serious about usability issues).


JMarc

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 -) kill the Document menu

Most of the movements look like being enforced by the idea of killing Document
menu. What is the rationale for it? The distinction looks clear to me - Edit
deals with the actual content of the document, while Document with document
as a whole.

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 01/10/12 10:04, Pavel Sanda wrote:

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

-) kill the Document menu

Most of the movements look like being enforced by the idea of killing Document
menu. What is the rationale for it? The distinction looks clear to me - Edit
deals with the actual content of the document, while Document with document
as a whole.


I can only repeat myself:
Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be 
edited is in Edit or Insert.


For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert-..., 
but an appendix from Document-...
I can show the source and message panes from View-..., but the TOC pane 
stays in Document-...
I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View-..., but 
latex log stays in Document-...
Enabling change tracking is something related to Edit-ing, but I find it 
in Document-... (i.e., LibreOffice has it in Edit-...)


Simply, current LyX menus seem to spread things throughout those menu 
voices in a weird way, IMO of course. The alternating between editing 
actions (Edit), appearance ones (View), then again editing (Insert), 
then again view-related stuff (Navigate), then again editing 
(Document), puzzles me quite a lot. Think of the new user facing 
with those menus :-)!


I just tried to fix (a bit of) such weirdness, well aware that changing 
the GUI including menus is especially a pain for whoever is already used 
to them.


T.

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
 I can only repeat myself:
 Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be 
 edited is in Edit or Insert.

 For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert-..., but 
 an appendix from Document-...

It is rather toggling than inserting (not that I'm defending such weird 
functioning).

 I can show the source and message panes from View-..., but the TOC pane 
 stays in Document-...
 I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View-..., but 
 latex log stays in Document-...

Right, message pane is probably my fault, but it belongs rather to Tools
than View looking now, hmm?

 Simply, current LyX menus seem to spread things throughout those menu 
 voices in a weird way, IMO of course.

The problem is that there are usually many diverging opinions. There was
even attempt to study Apple HIG in order to overcome this kind of flaming
and the result felt like eating stones.

Another angle is, for example, that menu should have reasonable number of
items. Have you ever tried to show Insert menu at netbook (or our pref dialog
where we just added next checkbox for that matter;)? It might be better
to make more brief Insert than dissolve Document into Edit/Insert.

 The alternating between editing 
 actions (Edit), appearance ones (View), then again editing (Insert), then 
 again view-related stuff (Navigate), then again editing (Document), 
 puzzles me quite a lot. Think of the new user facing with those menus :-)!

Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as his
Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of our text
style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help. 

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Pavel Sanda wrote:
 Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as his

s/Office/LyX/

 Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of our 
 text
 style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help. 
 
 Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> -) kill the Document menu

Most of the movements look like being enforced by the idea of killing Document
menu. What is the rationale for it? The distinction looks clear to me - Edit
deals with the actual content of the document, while Document with document
as a whole.

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 01/10/12 10:04, Pavel Sanda wrote:

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:

-) kill the Document menu

Most of the movements look like being enforced by the idea of killing Document
menu. What is the rationale for it? The distinction looks clear to me - Edit
deals with the actual content of the document, while Document with document
as a whole.


I can only repeat myself:
"Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be 
edited is in Edit or Insert."


For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert->..., 
but an appendix from Document->...
I can show the source and message panes from View->..., but the TOC pane 
stays in Document->...
I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View->..., but 
latex log stays in Document->...
Enabling change tracking is something related to Edit-ing, but I find it 
in Document->... (i.e., LibreOffice has it in Edit->...)


Simply, current LyX menus seem to spread things throughout those menu 
voices in a weird way, IMO of course. The alternating between editing 
actions (Edit), appearance ones (View), then again editing (Insert), 
then again view-related stuff (Navigate), then again editing 
(Document), puzzles me quite a lot. Think of the new user facing 
with those menus :-)!


I just tried to fix (a bit of) such weirdness, well aware that changing 
the GUI including menus is especially a pain for whoever is already used 
to them.


T.

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Tommaso Cucinotta wrote:
> I can only repeat myself:
> "Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be 
> edited is in Edit or Insert."
>
> For example, in the current menus, I can insert a TOC from Insert->..., but 
> an appendix from Document->...

It is rather toggling than inserting (not that I'm defending such weird 
functioning).

> I can show the source and message panes from View->..., but the TOC pane 
> stays in Document->...
> I can't see (user's viewpoint) why messages log stays in View->..., but 
> latex log stays in Document->...

Right, message pane is probably my fault, but it belongs rather to Tools
than View looking now, hmm?

> Simply, current LyX menus seem to spread things throughout those menu 
> voices in a weird way, IMO of course.

The problem is that there are usually many diverging opinions. There was
even attempt to study Apple HIG in order to overcome this kind of flaming
and the result felt like eating stones.

Another angle is, for example, that menu should have reasonable number of
items. Have you ever tried to show Insert menu at netbook (or our pref dialog
where we just added next checkbox for that matter;)? It might be better
to make more brief Insert than dissolve Document into Edit/Insert.

> The alternating between editing 
> actions (Edit), appearance ones (View), then again editing (Insert), then 
> again view-related stuff (Navigate), then again editing (Document), 
> puzzles me quite a lot. Think of the new user facing with those menus :-)!

Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as his
Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of our text
style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help. 

Pavel

Re: About LyX menus & usability.

[Pavel Sanda]

Pavel Sanda wrote:
> Well, he launches it and discovers that his Office has similar order as his

s/Office/LyX/

> Office (just tried here): File, Edit, View, Insert, Format (mixture of our 
> text
> style and Doc settings), Table, Tools, Windows, Help. 
> 
> Pavel

About LyX menus usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement:

-) move new window and close window from the File to the View menu
-) move the Insert menu right after the Edit one, so to keep editing 
actions closer to each other
-) in View menu, clearly separate entries that affect the way LyX 
appears, from those that actually render the document
   (actually, I'd be tempted to reword the View [PDF, HTML, ...] as 
Render [PDF, HTML, ...]

-) move Outline from Document to View menu
-) move Start Appendix from Document to Insert menu
-) move latex log from Document to View
-) move change tracking from Document to Edit
-) move document settings from Document to Edit
-) rename Close Current View to Close View Split

-) move Compressed from Document to the document settings dialog
-) kill the Document menu

Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be 
edited is in Edit or Insert. As a side effect, the Document menu remains 
empty and could be deleted, but there's a couple of stale entries out 
there whose function is unknown to me.


Menu document
OptItem Build Program|B build-program
Separator
Item Save in Bundled Format|F buffer-toggle-embedding
Item Compressed|m buffer-toggle-compression

The last 2 should go into the document settings dialog, but what is 
build program ?


Almost incorporated in the attached patch (just try it out and see if it 
makes more sense to you as well).


Bye,

T.

diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
index ddbab89..0fc9b05 100644
--- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
+++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
@@ -29,8 +29,8 @@ Menuset
 # Make the first 4 menus be as much as expected as possible
 		Submenu File|F file
 		Submenu Edit|E edit
-		Submenu View|V view
 		Submenu Insert|I insert
+		Submenu View|V view
 		Submenu Navigate|N navigate
 		Submenu Document|D document
 		Submenu Tools|T tools
@@ -60,9 +60,6 @@ Menuset
 		Item Print...|P dialog-show print
 		OptItem Fax...|F buffer-export fax
 		Separator
-		Item New Window|W window-new
-		Item Close Window|d window-close
-		Separator
 		Item Exit|x lyx-quit
 	End
 
@@ -106,6 +103,8 @@ Menuset
 		Submenu Paste Recent|e edit_pasterecent
 		Submenu Paste Special edit_paste
 		Separator
+		Submenu Change Tracking|C document_change
+		Separator
 		Item Select Whole Inset inset-select-all
 		Item Select All command-sequence buffer-begin ; buffer-end-select
 		Separator
@@ -118,6 +117,7 @@ Menuset
 		Submenu Text Style|S edit_textstyles
 		LanguageSelector
 		Item Paragraph Settings...|P layout-paragraph
+		Item Document Settings...|S dialog-show document
 		Separator
 # Mathed b0rkage means these don't work properly
 		OptSubmenu Table|T edit_tabular
@@ -315,24 +315,31 @@ Menuset
 #
 
 	Menu view
+		Submenu Toolbars|b toolbars
+		Item Outline|O dialog-toggle toc
+		Item View Source|S dialog-toggle view-source
+		Item View Messages|g dialog-toggle progress
+		Separator
 		Item Open All Insets|O inset-forall * inset-toggle open
 		Item Close All Insets|C inset-forall * inset-toggle close
 		Separator
 		Item Unfold Math Macro|n math-macro-unfold
 		Item Fold Math Macro|d math-macro-fold
 		Separator
-		Item View Source|S dialog-toggle view-source
-		Item View Messages|g dialog-toggle progress
+		Item Split View Into Left and Right Half|i view-split horizontal
+		Item Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e view-split vertical
+		OptItem Close View Split|w tab-group-close
+		Separator
+		Item Fullscreen|l ui-toggle fullscreen	
+		Separator
+		Item New Window|W window-new
+		Item Close Window|d window-close
+		Separator
 		ViewFormats
 		UpdateFormats
 		OptItem View Master Document|M master-buffer-view
 		OptItem Update Master Document|a master-buffer-update
-		Separator
-		Item Split View Into Left and Right Half|i view-split horizontal
-		Item Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e view-split vertical
-		OptItem Close Current View|w tab-group-close
-		Item Fullscreen|l ui-toggle fullscreen	
-		Submenu Toolbars|b toolbars
+		Item LaTeX Log|L dialog-show latexlog
 		Separator
 		Documents
 	End
@@ -377,6 +384,8 @@ Menuset
 		Item Program Listing[[Menu]] listing-insert
 		Item Date date-insert
 		Item Preview|w preview-insert
+		Separator
+		Item Start Appendix Here|A appendix
 	End
 
 	Menu insert_special
@@ -502,15 +511,10 @@ Menuset
 #
 
 	Menu document
-		Submenu Change Tracking|C document_change
 		OptItem Build Program|B build-program
-		Item LaTeX Log|L dialog-show latexlog
-		Item Outline|O dialog-toggle toc
-		Item Start Appendix Here|A appendix
 		Separator
 		Item Save in Bundled Format|F buffer-toggle-embedding
 		Item Compressed|m buffer-toggle-compression
-		Item Settings...|S dialog-show document
 	End
 
 	Menu document_change
diff --git a/src/frontends/qt4/Menus.cpp b/src/frontends/qt4/Menus.cpp
index 22d1d9e..28f6de7 100644
--- a/src/frontends/qt4/Menus.cpp
+++ b/src/frontends/qt4/Menus.cpp
@@ -1029,7 +1029,7 @@ void 

About LyX menus & usability.

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

Let me propose to rework the menus arrangement:

-) move "new window" and "close window" from the File to the View menu
-) move the Insert menu right after the Edit one, so to keep editing 
actions closer to each other
-) in View menu, clearly separate entries that affect the way LyX 
appears, from those that actually render the document
   (actually, I'd be tempted to reword the View [PDF, HTML, ...] as 
"Render [PDF, HTML, ...]"

-) move Outline from Document to View menu
-) move "Start Appendix" from Document to Insert menu
-) move "latex log" from Document to View
-) move "change tracking" from Document to Edit
-) move "document settings" from Document to Edit
-) rename "Close Current View" to "Close View Split"

-) move Compressed from Document to the document settings dialog
-) kill the Document menu

Shortly, whatever can be shown or hidden is in View, whatever can be 
edited is in Edit or Insert. As a side effect, the Document menu remains 
empty and could be deleted, but there's a couple of stale entries out 
there whose function is unknown to me.


Menu "document"
OptItem "Build Program|B" "build-program"
Separator
Item "Save in Bundled Format|F" "buffer-toggle-embedding"
Item "Compressed|m" "buffer-toggle-compression"

The last 2 should go into the document settings dialog, but what is 
"build program" ?


Almost incorporated in the attached patch (just try it out and see if it 
makes more sense to you as well).


Bye,

T.

diff --git a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
index ddbab89..0fc9b05 100644
--- a/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
+++ b/lib/ui/stdmenus.inc
@@ -29,8 +29,8 @@ Menuset
 # Make the first 4 menus be as much as expected as possible
 		Submenu "File|F" "file"
 		Submenu "Edit|E" "edit"
-		Submenu "View|V" "view"
 		Submenu "Insert|I" "insert"
+		Submenu "View|V" "view"
 		Submenu "Navigate|N" "navigate"
 		Submenu "Document|D" "document"
 		Submenu "Tools|T" "tools"
@@ -60,9 +60,6 @@ Menuset
 		Item "Print...|P" "dialog-show print"
 		OptItem "Fax...|F" "buffer-export fax"
 		Separator
-		Item "New Window|W" "window-new"
-		Item "Close Window|d" "window-close"
-		Separator
 		Item "Exit|x" "lyx-quit"
 	End
 
@@ -106,6 +103,8 @@ Menuset
 		Submenu "Paste Recent|e" "edit_pasterecent"
 		Submenu "Paste Special" "edit_paste"
 		Separator
+		Submenu "Change Tracking|C" "document_change"
+		Separator
 		Item "Select Whole Inset" "inset-select-all"
 		Item "Select All" "command-sequence buffer-begin ; buffer-end-select"
 		Separator
@@ -118,6 +117,7 @@ Menuset
 		Submenu "Text Style|S" "edit_textstyles"
 		LanguageSelector
 		Item "Paragraph Settings...|P" "layout-paragraph"
+		Item "Document Settings...|S" "dialog-show document"
 		Separator
 # Mathed b0rkage means these don't work properly
 		OptSubmenu "Table|T" "edit_tabular"
@@ -315,24 +315,31 @@ Menuset
 #
 
 	Menu "view"
+		Submenu "Toolbars|b" "toolbars"
+		Item "Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc"
+		Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source"
+		Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress"
+		Separator
 		Item "Open All Insets|O" "inset-forall * inset-toggle open"
 		Item "Close All Insets|C" "inset-forall * inset-toggle close"
 		Separator
 		Item "Unfold Math Macro|n" "math-macro-unfold"
 		Item "Fold Math Macro|d" "math-macro-fold"
 		Separator
-		Item "View Source|S" "dialog-toggle view-source"
-		Item "View Messages|g" "dialog-toggle progress"
+		Item "Split View Into Left and Right Half|i" "view-split horizontal"
+		Item "Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e" "view-split vertical"
+		OptItem "Close View Split|w" "tab-group-close"
+		Separator
+		Item "Fullscreen|l" "ui-toggle fullscreen"	
+		Separator
+		Item "New Window|W" "window-new"
+		Item "Close Window|d" "window-close"
+		Separator
 		ViewFormats
 		UpdateFormats
 		OptItem "View Master Document|M" "master-buffer-view"
 		OptItem "Update Master Document|a" "master-buffer-update"
-		Separator
-		Item "Split View Into Left and Right Half|i" "view-split horizontal"
-		Item "Split View Into Upper and Lower Half|e" "view-split vertical"
-		OptItem "Close Current View|w" "tab-group-close"
-		Item "Fullscreen|l" "ui-toggle fullscreen"	
-		Submenu "Toolbars|b" "toolbars"
+		Item "LaTeX Log|L" "dialog-show latexlog"
 		Separator
 		Documents
 	End
@@ -377,6 +384,8 @@ Menuset
 		Item "Program Listing[[Menu]]" "listing-insert"
 		Item "Date" "date-insert"
 		Item "Preview|w" "preview-insert"
+		Separator
+		Item "Start Appendix Here|A" "appendix"
 	End
 
 	Menu "insert_special"
@@ -502,15 +511,10 @@ Menuset
 #
 
 	Menu "document"
-		Submenu "Change Tracking|C" "document_change"
 		OptItem "Build Program|B" "build-program"
-		Item "LaTeX Log|L" "dialog-show latexlog"
-		Item "Outline|O" "dialog-toggle toc"
-		Item "Start Appendix Here|A" "appendix"
 		Separator
 		Item "Save in Bundled Format|F" "buffer-toggle-embedding"
 		Item "Compressed|m" "buffer-toggle-compression"
-		Item "Settings...|S"