Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Helge Hafting wrote: Again - default being different does not force us to use a different UI for it. The word itself is different - I think that is enough. Then why are we all discussing this issue then ? ;-) I see the smiley, but still: It _is_ ok to stuff slightly different things into a set of radio buttons. One might as well argue that left and right are different, and therefore they should have a different UI? Now that was extreme. Left, right and center are all alignments. So they fit in a set of alignment radio buttons. Justification is fundamentally different, it aligns to two margins instead of one, and changes spacing unlike the others. So its UI must be different, separating out everything, we'll get two levels of radio buttons: o justified o aligned - o left - o right - center This is what we get, if we insist that the UI must reflect each and every conceptual difference. It gets clunky this way. :-/ There is nothing wrong with discussion of course. That way, we avoid going to unnecessary extremes. I have yet to see a design philosophy that works well when taken to extremes . . . best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button Clicking a reset button isn't more work. Still, it seem like an odd way of doing this - pressing a reset button instead of simply setting the alignment to default. Default being different isn't an argument for this arrangement - so why? It is confusing - Confusing to you because you know LateX. I reckon that most users won't see the similarity that you see. You don't need LaTeX knowledge here. Just the knowledge that the alignment can be set explicitly by you - or implicitly by the paragraph layout. The confusion over the pushbutton is not because of latex. It is over what the pushbutton actually do. It is blindingly obvious that yet another radio button gives you yet another mutually exclusive choice. It is not as obvious that the pushbutton do the same thing. Perhaps this concept is though for some to understand too, but unlike the old checkbox, it doesn't actually get in the way. So it works for the expert, and is ok for the beginner too. Also, I think it is in line with the LyX way: Leave formatting detail to the machine - most of the time. It is clear that you can go back to that again, when you have a default radio button. This concept is in use many other places too. Take font selection, for example. The choice Default gives you whatever the current document style (or any \usepackage commands) set up for you. Helge Hafting
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Helge Hafting wrote: Again - default being "different" does not force us to use a different UI for it. The word itself is different - I think that is enough. Then why are we all discussing this issue then ? ;-) I see the smiley, but still: It _is_ ok to stuff slightly different things into a set of radio buttons. One might as well argue that "left" and "right" are different, and therefore they should have a different UI? Now that was extreme. Left, right and center are all alignments. So they fit in a set of "alignment" radio buttons. Justification is fundamentally different, it aligns to two margins instead of one, and changes spacing unlike the others. So its UI must be different, separating out everything, we'll get two levels of radio buttons: o justified o aligned - o left - o right - center This is what we get, if we insist that the UI must reflect each and every conceptual difference. It gets clunky this way. :-/ There is nothing wrong with discussion of course. That way, we avoid going to unnecessary extremes. I have yet to see a design philosophy that works well when taken to extremes . . . best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button Clicking a "reset" button isn't more work. Still, it seem like an odd way of doing this - pressing a reset button instead of simply setting the alignment to "default". Default being "different" isn't an argument for this arrangement - so why? It is confusing - Confusing to you because you know LateX. I reckon that most users won't see the similarity that you see. You don't need LaTeX knowledge here. Just the knowledge that the alignment can be set explicitly by you - or implicitly by the paragraph layout. The confusion over the pushbutton is not because of latex. It is over what the pushbutton actually do. It is blindingly obvious that yet another radio button gives you yet another mutually exclusive choice. It is not as obvious that the pushbutton do the same thing. Perhaps this concept is though for some to understand too, but unlike the old checkbox, it doesn't actually get in the way. So it works for the expert, and is ok for the beginner too. Also, I think it is in line with the LyX way: Leave formatting detail to the machine - most of the time. It is clear that you can go back to that again, when you have a "default" radio button. This concept is in use many other places too. Take font selection, for example. The choice "Default" gives you whatever the current document style (or any \usepackage commands) set up for you. Helge Hafting
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Edwin Leuven wrote: Richard Heck wrote: be the Default for that paragraph. The reason to make this distinction is that it is one thing to say, Give this paragraph the default alignment, whatever that is and another to say, Make this paragraph fully justified, no matter what. The difference will only show up in certain kinds of cases, such as when one is changing layouts, really, who cares? I do, at least. Most of the time, I don't use the alignment settings at all, of course. I do change paragraph types though. Not having to change alignment when changing paragraph types is very nice. Turn something into heading, then back to standard gives me justification again - because that is default for standard. Copy the title somewhere, turn the copy into a subsection, and it is no longer centered. But when I set an explicit alignment, then I want that to stick. If I center something, then I want it to stay centered even if I change the paragraph type back and forth a bit later. It is then necessary to have both a default and a explicit setting. It save some work - rarely, but why make a change for the worse anyway? Default may be a somewhat special setting, show that with a font or something, no need to make the UI harder. What Default really says is that the decision isn't made here, but externally. (In an outer paragraph, or the layout files.) Helge Hafting but it seems to many of us, at least, that the difference should be respected, nobody has come with with a good reason to go the current route imo. the only argument seems to be we should provide the ui since it is possible in latex, but even though something is possible it doesn't mean that it is sensible. i also think that non-latex users have a reflex to set things explicitly and will therefore abuse the dialog to set paragraphs to justified even though it is the default etc. sigh
RE: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Helge Hafting wrote: Most of the time, I don't use the alignment settings at all, of course. I do change paragraph types though. Not having to change alignment when changing paragraph types is very nice. in these cases there is no difference between the implementation i suggested and the current one But when I set an explicit alignment, then I want that to stick. it will stick in many cases in my implementation, and it won't always stick in the current implementation ... stop flogging a dead horse svp
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Edwin Leuven wrote: Alfredo Braunstein wrote: It has become sort of a religious issue lyx has a tendency to put a stupid button, checkbox you name it for whatever stupid thing that is around. in the end you get a bad, cluttered ui... (i this respect i think i compared lyx to a x-mas tree once) so it has nothing to do with religion (which i avoid like the plague), it is just sanitary: the same reason why i flush in the toilet, i like things to be clean. (you are partly guilty), dunno why ;-) maybe i don't like x-mas as much a you guys? ;-) I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default though that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... This is a sensible suggestion IMHO. As we all agree that Default is somewhat a different setting than the others a UI like this will have the best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button automatically to the default one). So 4 radio buttons and one push button is the way to go IMHO: o Justified (Default) o Left o Center o Right [Reset Layout] Abdel.
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Edwin Leuven wrote: Alfredo Braunstein wrote: It has become sort of a religious issue lyx has a tendency to put a stupid button, checkbox you name it for whatever stupid thing that is around. in the end you get a bad, cluttered ui... (i this respect i think i compared lyx to a x-mas tree once) so it has nothing to do with religion (which i avoid like the plague), it is just sanitary: the same reason why i flush in the toilet, i like things to be clean. (you are partly guilty), dunno why ;-) maybe i don't like x-mas as much a you guys? ;-) I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default though that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... This is a sensible suggestion IMHO. As we all agree that Default is somewhat a different setting than the others a UI like this will have the Again - default being different does not force us to use a different UI for it. The word itself is different - I think that is enough. best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button Clicking a reset button isn't more work. Still, it seem like an odd way of doing this - pressing a reset button instead of simply setting the alignment to default. Default being different isn't an argument for this arrangement - so why? It is confusing - is that reset button for resetting the radio buttons or for something else? Having another radiobutton named default makes this obvious. It sets the layout to default instead of the other choices. Default is a different kind of word than middle/right/left, so that makes the radiobutton sufficiently special. There is no need to use a different UI to mark its special status. The status _can_ be marked with a separator bar, a little extra distance from the other buttons, or font emphasizing. automatically to the default one). So 4 radio buttons and one push button is the way to go IMHO: o Justified (Default) o Left o Center o Right [Reset Layout] I guess you meant [Reset alignment] as the layout have other parameters as well? This arrangement don't seem to differentiate between justified (or whatever) by default, and justified (or whatever) set explicitly so it won't change over a layout change. Default as a radio button allows that however. Now, if the point is to show which setting that currently is default, how about going the other way? Instead of printing default next to the default setting, print the setting name next to default button. 5 button selection: o default (justified) o justified o right o center o left If the layout is then changed to Title, then the box will say o default (center) o justified o right o center o left This way yoe see clearly whether the alignemnt is explicit or at its default - and everything (including default) can be set with a single click. No confusion as to what any extra button does. Helge Hafting
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Helge Hafting wrote: Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Edwin Leuven wrote: that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... This is a sensible suggestion IMHO. As we all agree that Default is somewhat a different setting than the others a UI like this will have the Again - default being different does not force us to use a different UI for it. The word itself is different - I think that is enough. Then why are we all discussing this issue then ? ;-) best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button Clicking a reset button isn't more work. Still, it seem like an odd way of doing this - pressing a reset button instead of simply setting the alignment to default. Default being different isn't an argument for this arrangement - so why? It is confusing - Confusing to you because you know LateX. I reckon that most users won't see the similarity that you see. is that reset button for resetting the radio buttons or for something else? Depends on the dialog. For now, the dialog is modal and the new alignment won't show immediately on screen, so the button would be only for resettings the radio buttons at first and the in-text paragraph alignment as soon as you click [Apply]. In the future, when we cleanup the paragraph controller, it would be for both resetting the alignment and the radio buttons. Having another radiobutton named default makes this obvious. Hence this discussion ;-) It sets the layout to default instead of the other choices. Default is a different kind of word than middle/right/left, so that makes the radiobutton sufficiently special. There is no need to use a different UI to mark its special status. The status _can_ be marked with a separator bar, a little extra distance from the other buttons, or font emphasizing. automatically to the default one). So 4 radio buttons and one push button is the way to go IMHO: o Justified (Default) o Left o Center o Right [Reset Layout] I guess you meant [Reset alignment] as the layout have other parameters as well? Yes, sorry. This arrangement don't seem to differentiate between justified (or whatever) by default, and justified (or whatever) set explicitly so it won't change over a layout change. Default as a radio button allows that however. Now, if the point is to show which setting that currently is default, how about going the other way? Instead of printing default next to the default setting, print the setting name next to default button. 5 button selection: o default (justified) o justified o right o center o left If the layout is then changed to Title, then the box will say o default (center) o justified o right o center o left This way yoe see clearly whether the alignemnt is explicit or at its default - and everything (including default) can be set with a single click. No confusion as to what any extra button does. This is a good alternative of course but I still prefer the other one (with the button) :-) Abdel.
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default though that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... This is a sensible suggestion IMHO. As we all agree that Default is somewhat a different setting than the others a UI like this will have the best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button automatically to the default one). At least one central point here has still yet to be addressed, even though I've asked directly what people intend to do about it: There's no such thing as the default one when you're dealing with a multi-paragraph selection. That, to my mind, means there's a large hole in the suggested implementation at this point. As currently envisaged, the behavior in that case is dependent upon quirks in the existing code and will be incorrect. At a minimum, a check will need to be done for a multi-paragraph selection. There's also the question, raised by Helge, whether having this pushbutton is really going to be intelligible to our users. Remember: All of this got started because the checkbox was confusing people. I seriously doubt that the pushbutton will be more intuitive. For what it's worth, here's another use case: It's common to want marginal notes, mini-pages, and the like to be set raggedright due to the small linewidth. It would be nice to be able to set this, and not have it vanish if I start experimenting with other aspects of the layout. And I don't think this is terribly uncommon. I often take papers or other documents I've written with (say) article and try them out with other layouts, just to see how they look. It'd be a major drag to find out that doing this had undone ALL my left-aligned marginal notes. It's true that if I'd set the marginal notes right-aligned and the new layout didn't allow that, I'd lose that information---and if so, then we ought to give a warning, if we don't already. In fact, I'd say we ought to give a warning in any such case, such as the one Edwin mentioned, where setting a previously left-aligned paragraph as a section, say, could cause the same kind of data loss. So yes, I think Default should somehow be distinguished from the other possibilities, but not in such a way as to obscure what it really is: It's the choice to let the document class determine the alignment. That's different than choosing to align it raggedright, even if raggedright happens to be what the current document class would do, as the minipage example shows. Richard -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Helge Hafting wrote: If the layout is then changed to Title, then the box will say o default (center) o justified o right o center o left This way you see clearly whether the alignment is explicit or at its default - and everything (including default) can be set with a single click. No confusion as to what any extra button does. This is a good alternative of course but I still prefer the other one (with the button) :-) Please read this exchange carefully. Helge said, This way you see clearly whether the alignment is explicit or at its default. The proposal you are endorsing does not do this: There's only the one button, Default (Center), and it gets checked either way. You can't tell whether the alignment has been explicitly set to Center or happens to be that way because that's the default. But in fact, the two of you are talking past each other, because I don't think it's been properly recognized that this distinction simply won't exist if we go the four-button route. Some people have seen this, for sure, but I don't think the costs of that are being properly appreciated. This is the crucial question: Do we want the UI to reflect the difference between LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT and LYX_ALIGN_JUSTIFIED, even in the case where the layout and paragraph style currently in use would set the current paragraph to Block? Or better: Do we want LyX itself to make this distinction? Do we want users to be able to set a paragraph's alignment to LYX_ALIGN_LEFT even when that happens to be the current default? What Helge and I are saying is that we should. There are plenty of cases, even if they are not extremely common, where it would make sense to want to do this. I simply do not see why we should prevent people from doing it, and that is what we would be doing---and I also don't see that you can always use ERT counts as an answer to this concern. Is one extra radio button all that much? If users need to be educated about this difference, well, then I think they should be educated about it. It's part of understanding the role of the document class. Richard -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Richard Heck wrote: Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Helge Hafting wrote: If the layout is then changed to Title, then the box will say o default (center) o justified o right o center o left This way you see clearly whether the alignment is explicit or at its default - and everything (including default) can be set with a single click. No confusion as to what any extra button does. This is a good alternative of course but I still prefer the other one (with the button) :-) Please read this exchange carefully. [...] OK, I was playing a bit the devil's advocate because I don't really see that the use case you are both talking about is that important. If it is, then I agree that the 5 radio buttons solution is the best compromise. Abdel.
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Leuven, E. wrote: it will stick in many cases in my implementation, and it won't always stick in the current implementation It may not happen very often that you need to set the alignment to the option that is already the default, there still is an important difference between the default and the alignment that happens to be the default. With an additional radio button it is immediately visible that the alignment has not been customized and is set by the document class. This is very important if you want to mark up documents in a semantic way and not like the WYSIWYG tools. If the radio button that is the default gets moved all the time this is more difficult to see. If this radio button is removed, what happens if you set the alignment to centered and then change the document class to something that has centered as default for this paragraph? Will the alignment change from centered to default by opening the alignment dialog without changing the alignment, because centered is no longer an option in the GUI? Or is the information removed when changing the document class? What if you had two paragraph that had been set in the previous document class to centered and default, respectively? You won't be able to see the difference anymore. Or is the different again removed? What about custom LaTeX commands in the preamble that change default alignments? Will LyX be able to determine what actually is the default and not remove the wrong information? Joost
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Richard Heck wrote: Some people have seen this, for sure, but I don't think the costs of that are being properly appreciated. i see it, but i think that these costs (or the benefits) are overstated by you guys... There are plenty of cases, even if they are not extremely common, where it would make sense to want to do this. there are cases, but they are not plenty and if they are plenty for some they are still a zero probability event for most others. i would argue that 99.9% percent of the users never run into them... I simply do not see why we should prevent people from doing it yes, this is the argument from the latex people we should simply do it because it it possible. you're trapped in your own logic... If users need to be educated about this difference, well, then I think they should be educated about it. personally i don't see why 99.9% should be educated because a 0.01% religious minority thinks that is good for them... (i guess i am not so evangelical) ... this being said, i can live with the current solution. it would be nice though if it would work as advertised: at the moment a standard layout with left alignment looses this explicit left when switching back and forth between a header layout... thanks. PS shall we close this thread? i am sure everybody is pretty fed up with it...
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Richard == Richard Heck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Richard Please read this exchange carefully. Helge said, This way Richard you see clearly whether the alignment is explicit or at its Richard default. The proposal you are endorsing does not do this: Richard There's only the one button, Default (Center), and it gets Richard checked either way. You can't tell whether the alignment has Richard been explicitly set to Center or happens to be that way Richard because that's the default. But in fact, the two of you are Richard talking past each other, because I don't think it's been Richard properly recognized that this distinction simply won't exist Richard if we go the four-button route. Some people have seen this, Richard for sure, but I don't think the costs of that are being Richard properly appreciated. +1 JMarc
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Edwin Leuven wrote: Richard Heck wrote: be the Default for that paragraph. The reason to make this distinction is that it is one thing to say, "Give this paragraph the default alignment, whatever that is" and another to say, "Make this paragraph fully justified, no matter what". The difference will only show up in certain kinds of cases, such as when one is changing layouts, really, who cares? I do, at least. Most of the time, I don't use the alignment settings at all, of course. I do change paragraph types though. Not having to change alignment when changing paragraph types is very nice. Turn something into heading, then back to "standard" gives me justification again - because that is default for "standard". Copy the title somewhere, turn the copy into a subsection, and it is no longer centered. But when I set an explicit alignment, then I want that to stick. If I center something, then I want it to stay centered even if I change the paragraph type back and forth a bit later. It is then necessary to have both a "default" and a explicit setting. It save some work - rarely, but why make a change for the worse anyway? "Default" may be a somewhat special setting, show that with a font or something, no need to make the UI harder. What "Default" really says is that the decision isn't made here, but externally. (In an outer paragraph, or the layout files.) Helge Hafting but it seems to many of us, at least, that the difference should be respected, nobody has come with with a good reason to go the current route imo. the only argument seems to be "we should provide the ui since it is possible in latex", but even though something is possible it doesn't mean that it is sensible. i also think that non-latex users have a reflex to set things explicitly and will therefore abuse the dialog to set paragraphs to justified even though it is the default etc. sigh
RE: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Helge Hafting wrote: > Most of the time, I don't use the alignment settings at all, > of course. I do change paragraph types though. > Not having to change alignment when changing paragraph types > is very nice. in these cases there is no difference between the implementation i suggested and the current one > But when I set an explicit alignment, then I want that to stick. it will stick in many cases in my implementation, and it won't always stick in the current implementation ... stop flogging a dead horse svp
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Edwin Leuven wrote: Alfredo Braunstein wrote: It has become sort of a religious issue lyx has a tendency to put a stupid button, checkbox you name it for whatever stupid thing that is around. in the end you get a bad, cluttered ui... (i this respect i think i compared lyx to a x-mas tree once) so it has nothing to do with religion (which i avoid like the plague), it is just sanitary: the same reason why i flush in the toilet, i like things to be clean. (you are partly guilty), dunno why ;-) maybe i don't like x-mas as much a you guys? ;-) I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default though that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... This is a sensible suggestion IMHO. As we all agree that "Default" is somewhat a different setting than the others a UI like this will have the best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button automatically to the default one). So 4 radio buttons and one push button is the way to go IMHO: o Justified (Default) o Left o Center o Right [Reset Layout] Abdel.
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Edwin Leuven wrote: Alfredo Braunstein wrote: It has become sort of a religious issue lyx has a tendency to put a stupid button, checkbox you name it for whatever stupid thing that is around. in the end you get a bad, cluttered ui... (i this respect i think i compared lyx to a x-mas tree once) so it has nothing to do with religion (which i avoid like the plague), it is just sanitary: the same reason why i flush in the toilet, i like things to be clean. (you are partly guilty), dunno why ;-) maybe i don't like x-mas as much a you guys? ;-) I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default though that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... This is a sensible suggestion IMHO. As we all agree that "Default" is somewhat a different setting than the others a UI like this will have the Again - default being "different" does not force us to use a different UI for it. The word itself is different - I think that is enough. best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button Clicking a "reset" button isn't more work. Still, it seem like an odd way of doing this - pressing a reset button instead of simply setting the alignment to "default". Default being "different" isn't an argument for this arrangement - so why? It is confusing - is that reset button for resetting the radio buttons or for something else? Having another radiobutton named "default" makes this obvious. It sets the layout to "default" instead of the other choices. "Default" is a different kind of word than middle/right/left, so that makes the radiobutton sufficiently "special". There is no need to use a different UI to mark its special status. The status _can_ be marked with a separator bar, a little extra distance from the other buttons, or font emphasizing. automatically to the default one). So 4 radio buttons and one push button is the way to go IMHO: o Justified (Default) o Left o Center o Right [Reset Layout] I guess you meant [Reset alignment] as the layout have other parameters as well? This arrangement don't seem to differentiate between justified (or whatever) by default, and justified (or whatever) set explicitly so it won't change over a layout change. Default as a radio button allows that however. Now, if the point is to show which setting that currently is default, how about going the other way? Instead of printing "default" next to the default setting, print the setting name next to "default" button. 5 button selection: o default (justified) o justified o right o center o left If the layout is then changed to "Title", then the box will say o default (center) o justified o right o center o left This way yoe see clearly whether the alignemnt is explicit or at its default - and everything (including default) can be set with a single click. No confusion as to what any extra button does. Helge Hafting
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Helge Hafting wrote: Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Edwin Leuven wrote: that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... This is a sensible suggestion IMHO. As we all agree that "Default" is somewhat a different setting than the others a UI like this will have the Again - default being "different" does not force us to use a different UI for it. The word itself is different - I think that is enough. Then why are we all discussing this issue then ? ;-) best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button Clicking a "reset" button isn't more work. Still, it seem like an odd way of doing this - pressing a reset button instead of simply setting the alignment to "default". Default being "different" isn't an argument for this arrangement - so why? It is confusing - Confusing to you because you know LateX. I reckon that most users won't see the similarity that you see. is that reset button for resetting the radio buttons or for something else? Depends on the dialog. For now, the dialog is modal and the new alignment won't show immediately on screen, so the button would be only for resettings the radio buttons at first and the in-text paragraph alignment as soon as you click [Apply]. In the future, when we cleanup the paragraph controller, it would be for both resetting the alignment and the radio buttons. Having another radiobutton named "default" makes this obvious. Hence this discussion ;-) It sets the layout to "default" instead of the other choices. "Default" is a different kind of word than middle/right/left, so that makes the radiobutton sufficiently "special". There is no need to use a different UI to mark its special status. The status _can_ be marked with a separator bar, a little extra distance from the other buttons, or font emphasizing. automatically to the default one). So 4 radio buttons and one push button is the way to go IMHO: o Justified (Default) o Left o Center o Right [Reset Layout] I guess you meant [Reset alignment] as the layout have other parameters as well? Yes, sorry. This arrangement don't seem to differentiate between justified (or whatever) by default, and justified (or whatever) set explicitly so it won't change over a layout change. Default as a radio button allows that however. Now, if the point is to show which setting that currently is default, how about going the other way? Instead of printing "default" next to the default setting, print the setting name next to "default" button. 5 button selection: o default (justified) o justified o right o center o left If the layout is then changed to "Title", then the box will say o default (center) o justified o right o center o left This way yoe see clearly whether the alignemnt is explicit or at its default - and everything (including default) can be set with a single click. No confusion as to what any extra button does. This is a good alternative of course but I still prefer the other one (with the button) :-) Abdel.
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default though that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... This is a sensible suggestion IMHO. As we all agree that "Default" is somewhat a different setting than the others a UI like this will have the best of both worlds: one click for changing alignment and also one click for resetting the alignment (which will also set the radio button automatically to the default one). At least one central point here has still yet to be addressed, even though I've asked directly what people intend to do about it: There's no such thing as "the default one" when you're dealing with a multi-paragraph selection. That, to my mind, means there's a large hole in the suggested implementation at this point. As currently envisaged, the behavior in that case is dependent upon quirks in the existing code and will be incorrect. At a minimum, a check will need to be done for a multi-paragraph selection. There's also the question, raised by Helge, whether having this pushbutton is really going to be intelligible to our users. Remember: All of this got started because the checkbox was confusing people. I seriously doubt that the pushbutton will be more intuitive. For what it's worth, here's another use case: It's common to want marginal notes, mini-pages, and the like to be set raggedright due to the small linewidth. It would be nice to be able to set this, and not have it vanish if I start experimenting with other aspects of the layout. And I don't think this is terribly uncommon. I often take papers or other documents I've written with (say) article and try them out with other layouts, just to see how they look. It'd be a major drag to find out that doing this had undone ALL my left-aligned marginal notes. It's true that if I'd set the marginal notes right-aligned and the new layout didn't allow that, I'd lose that information---and if so, then we ought to give a warning, if we don't already. In fact, I'd say we ought to give a warning in any such case, such as the one Edwin mentioned, where setting a previously left-aligned paragraph as a section, say, could cause the same kind of data loss. So yes, I think Default should somehow be distinguished from the other possibilities, but not in such a way as to obscure what it really is: It's the choice to let the document class determine the alignment. That's different than choosing to align it raggedright, even if raggedright happens to be what the current document class would do, as the minipage example shows. Richard -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Helge Hafting wrote: If the layout is then changed to "Title", then the box will say o default (center) o justified o right o center o left This way you see clearly whether the alignment is explicit or at its default - and everything (including default) can be set with a single click. No confusion as to what any extra button does. This is a good alternative of course but I still prefer the other one (with the button) :-) Please read this exchange carefully. Helge said, "This way you see clearly whether the alignment is explicit or at its default". The proposal you are endorsing does not do this: There's only the one button, "Default (Center)", and it gets checked either way. You can't tell whether the alignment has been explicitly set to Center or happens to be that way because that's the default. But in fact, the two of you are talking past each other, because I don't think it's been properly recognized that this distinction simply won't exist if we go the four-button route. Some people have seen this, for sure, but I don't think the costs of that are being properly appreciated. This is the crucial question: Do we want the UI to reflect the difference between LYX_ALIGN_LAYOUT and LYX_ALIGN_JUSTIFIED, even in the case where the layout and paragraph style currently in use would set the current paragraph to Block? Or better: Do we want LyX itself to make this distinction? Do we want users to be able to set a paragraph's alignment to LYX_ALIGN_LEFT even when that happens to be the current default? What Helge and I are saying is that we should. There are plenty of cases, even if they are not extremely common, where it would make sense to want to do this. I simply do not see why we should prevent people from doing it, and that is what we would be doing---and I also don't see that "you can always use ERT" counts as an answer to this concern. Is one extra radio button all that much? If users need to be educated about this difference, well, then I think they should be educated about it. It's part of understanding the role of the document class. Richard -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Richard Heck wrote: Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Helge Hafting wrote: If the layout is then changed to "Title", then the box will say o default (center) o justified o right o center o left This way you see clearly whether the alignment is explicit or at its default - and everything (including default) can be set with a single click. No confusion as to what any extra button does. This is a good alternative of course but I still prefer the other one (with the button) :-) Please read this exchange carefully. [...] OK, I was playing a bit the devil's advocate because I don't really see that the use case you are both talking about is that important. If it is, then I agree that the 5 radio buttons solution is the best compromise. Abdel.
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Leuven, E. wrote: it will stick in many cases in my implementation, and it won't always stick in the current implementation It may not happen very often that you need to set the alignment to the option that is already the default, there still is an important difference between the default and the alignment that happens to be the default. With an additional radio button it is immediately visible that the alignment has not been customized and is set by the document class. This is very important if you want to mark up documents in a semantic way and not like the WYSIWYG tools. If the radio button that is the default gets moved all the time this is more difficult to see. If this radio button is removed, what happens if you set the alignment to centered and then change the document class to something that has centered as default for this paragraph? Will the alignment change from centered to default by opening the alignment dialog without changing the alignment, because centered is no longer an option in the GUI? Or is the information removed when changing the document class? What if you had two paragraph that had been set in the previous document class to centered and default, respectively? You won't be able to see the difference anymore. Or is the different again removed? What about custom LaTeX commands in the preamble that change default alignments? Will LyX be able to determine what actually is the default and not remove the wrong information? Joost
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Richard Heck wrote: Some people have seen this, for sure, but I don't think the costs of that are being properly appreciated. i see it, but i think that these costs (or the benefits) are overstated by you guys... There are plenty of cases, even if they are not extremely common, where it would make sense to want to do this. there are cases, but they are not plenty and if they are plenty for some they are still a zero probability event for most others. i would argue that 99.9% percent of the users never run into them... I simply do not see why we should prevent people from doing it yes, this is the argument from the latex people "we should simply do it because it it possible". you're trapped in your own logic... If users need to be educated about this difference, well, then I think they should be educated about it. personally i don't see why 99.9% should be "educated" because a 0.01% religious minority thinks that is good for them... (i guess i am not so evangelical) ... this being said, i can live with the current solution. it would be nice though if it would work as advertised: at the moment a standard layout with left alignment looses this explicit left when switching back and forth between a header layout... thanks. PS shall we close this thread? i am sure everybody is pretty fed up with it...
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
> "Richard" == Richard Heck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Richard> Please read this exchange carefully. Helge said, "This way Richard> you see clearly whether the alignment is explicit or at its Richard> default". The proposal you are endorsing does not do this: Richard> There's only the one button, "Default (Center)", and it gets Richard> checked either way. You can't tell whether the alignment has Richard> been explicitly set to Center or happens to be that way Richard> because that's the default. But in fact, the two of you are Richard> talking past each other, because I don't think it's been Richard> properly recognized that this distinction simply won't exist Richard> if we go the four-button route. Some people have seen this, Richard> for sure, but I don't think the costs of that are being Richard> properly appreciated. +1 JMarc
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Richard Heck wrote: be the Default for that paragraph. The reason to make this distinction is that it is one thing to say, Give this paragraph the default alignment, whatever that is and another to say, Make this paragraph fully justified, no matter what. The difference will only show up in certain kinds of cases, such as when one is changing layouts, really, who cares? but it seems to many of us, at least, that the difference should be respected, nobody has come with with a good reason to go the current route imo. the only argument seems to be we should provide the ui since it is possible in latex, but even though something is possible it doesn't mean that it is sensible. i also think that non-latex users have a reflex to set things explicitly and will therefore abuse the dialog to set paragraphs to justified even though it is the default etc. sigh
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Alfredo Braunstein wrote: It has become sort of a religious issue lyx has a tendency to put a stupid button, checkbox you name it for whatever stupid thing that is around. in the end you get a bad, cluttered ui... (i this respect i think i compared lyx to a x-mas tree once) so it has nothing to do with religion (which i avoid like the plague), it is just sanitary: the same reason why i flush in the toilet, i like things to be clean. (you are partly guilty), dunno why ;-) maybe i don't like x-mas as much a you guys? ;-) I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default though that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button... In that sense maybe the old interface (Default checkbox + the rest) was better? (*ducks*) looking for my bazooka
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Alfredo Braunstein wrote: i also think that non-latex users have a reflex to set things explicitly and will therefore abuse the dialog to set paragraphs to justified even though it is the default etc. In that sense maybe the old interface (Default checkbox + the rest) was better? (*ducks*) Well, yes, that was the idea behind the old interface: that Default ISN'T just another setting that is comparable to the rest. But other people felt differently, apparently, and the checkbox approach was apparently confusing, so it got changed. And then, if it's changed, you get the whole question we've been discussing. Indeed, I think Edwin's worries, which I do somewhat share, come from the same place: that Default just doesn't seem like an option on the same table as Justified, etc. Ultimately, though, I think the sense that Default isn't another option depends upon thinking exclusively of the single-paragraph case. If you think of a multi-paragraph selection, then Default definitely is another option. Richard -- == Richard G Heck, Jr Professor of Philosophy Brown University http://frege.brown.edu/heck/ == Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC Learn how to sign your email using Thunderbird and GnuPG at: http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Edwin Leuven wrote: Richard Heck wrote: be the Default for that paragraph. The reason to make this distinction is that it is one thing to say, Give this paragraph the default alignment, whatever that is and another to say, Make this paragraph fully justified, no matter what. The difference will only show up in certain kinds of cases, such as when one is changing layouts, really, who cares? It has become sort of a religious issue (you are partly guilty), dunno why ;-) The fact is that the thing is not really important, as one rarely has to explicitly set the alignment in the first place (I think my most frequent use case is centering a table or a figure, i.e. once or twice per document!). but it seems to many of us, at least, that the difference should be respected, nobody has come with with a good reason to go the current route imo. the only argument seems to be we should provide the ui since it is possible in latex, but even though something is possible it doesn't mean that it is sensible. There are good reasons, the problem is if they are worth *one* more radiobutton or not. You'll agree that it's not a life or death matter. I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default though, but it's not that I use it so frequently (in fact current svn is broken in this respect and I didn't notice). If there is demand, one could add the LFUN and be done with it. i also think that non-latex users have a reflex to set things explicitly and will therefore abuse the dialog to set paragraphs to justified even though it is the default etc. In that sense maybe the old interface (Default checkbox + the rest) was better? (*ducks*) A/
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Richard Heck wrote: be the Default for that paragraph. The reason to make this distinction is that it is one thing to say, "Give this paragraph the default alignment, whatever that is" and another to say, "Make this paragraph fully justified, no matter what". The difference will only show up in certain kinds of cases, such as when one is changing layouts, really, who cares? but it seems to many of us, at least, that the difference should be respected, nobody has come with with a good reason to go the current route imo. the only argument seems to be "we should provide the ui since it is possible in latex", but even though something is possible it doesn't mean that it is sensible. i also think that non-latex users have a reflex to set things explicitly and will therefore abuse the dialog to set paragraphs to justified even though it is the default etc. sigh
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Alfredo Braunstein wrote:
It has become sort of a religious issue
lyx has a tendency to put a stupid button, checkbox you name it for
whatever stupid thing that is around. in the end you get a bad,
cluttered ui...
(i this respect i think i compared lyx to a x-mas tree once)
so it has nothing to do with religion (which i avoid like the plague),
it is just sanitary: the same reason why i flush in the toilet, i like
things to be clean.
(you are partly guilty), dunno why ;-)
maybe i don't like x-mas as much a you guys? ;-)
I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to
default though
that is a question of ui design and is orthogonal to what i am
proposing. i think for this there should be a reset button...
In that sense maybe the old interface ("Default" checkbox + the rest)
was better? (*ducks*)
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Alfredo Braunstein wrote:
i also think that non-latex users have a reflex to set things explicitly
and will therefore abuse the dialog to set paragraphs to justified even
though it is the default etc.
In that sense maybe the old interface ("Default" checkbox + the rest) was
better? (*ducks*)
Well, yes, that was the idea behind the old interface: that Default
ISN'T just another setting that is comparable to the rest. But other
people felt differently, apparently, and the checkbox approach was
apparently confusing, so it got changed. And then, if it's changed, you
get the whole question we've been discussing. Indeed, I think Edwin's
worries, which I do somewhat share, come from the same place: that
Default just doesn't seem like an option on the same table as Justified,
etc.
Ultimately, though, I think the sense that Default isn't another option
depends upon thinking exclusively of the single-paragraph case. If you
think of a multi-paragraph selection, then Default definitely is another
option.
Richard
--
==
Richard G Heck, Jr
Professor of Philosophy
Brown University
http://frege.brown.edu/heck/
==
Get my public key from http://sks.keyserver.penguin.de
Hash: 0x1DE91F1E66FFBDEC
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http://dudu.dyn.2-h.org/nist/gpg-enigmail-howto
Re: [PATCH-update] Finish Reworking of Paragraph Settings Dialog
Edwin Leuven wrote:
> Richard Heck wrote:
>> be the Default for that paragraph. The reason to make this distinction
>> is that it is one thing to say, "Give this paragraph the default
>> alignment, whatever that is" and another to say, "Make this paragraph
>> fully justified, no matter what". The difference will only show up in
>> certain kinds of cases, such as when one is changing layouts,
>
> really, who cares?
It has become sort of a religious issue (you are partly guilty), dunno
why ;-) The fact is that the thing is not really important, as one rarely
has to explicitly set the alignment in the first place (I think my most
frequent use case is centering a table or a figure, i.e. once or twice per
document!).
>> but it
>> seems to many of us, at least, that the difference should be respected,
>
> nobody has come with with a good reason to go the current route imo. the
> only argument seems to be "we should provide the ui since it is possible
> in latex", but even though something is possible it doesn't mean that it
> is sensible.
There are good reasons, the problem is if they are worth *one* more
radiobutton or not. You'll agree that it's not a life or death matter.
I would miss the possibility to reset a bunch of paragraphs to default
though, but it's not that I use it so frequently (in fact current svn is
broken in this respect and I didn't notice). If there is demand, one could
add the LFUN and be done with it.
> i also think that non-latex users have a reflex to set things explicitly
> and will therefore abuse the dialog to set paragraphs to justified even
> though it is the default etc.
In that sense maybe the old interface ("Default" checkbox + the rest) was
better? (*ducks*)
A/
