Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Andre Poenitz]

On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 11:40:10AM -0500, Paul A. Rubin wrote:
 IIRC, MSVC also uses nonstandard scoping of loop indices.  Again, my 
 memory is fuzzy, but I believe that
 
 for (int i=1; i10; i++) ...;
 ...
 for (int i=1; in; i++) ...;
 
 should compile correctly in any standard implementation of C/C++, but I 
 think MSVC crabs that the second occurrence of 'int i' is redefining 'i'.

This has ben changed a while ago.

Andre'

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Angus Leeming]

Enrico Forestieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 If I had been able to compile a dynamic Qt with MinGW, could I have
 linked to it an MSVC compiled LyX?

No, I don't think so. The entry point to the MinGW dll is weird, apparently. The
MSVC exe won't be able to find the way in.

(Sorry if I sound a little vague ;-))

Angus

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Andre Poenitz]

On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 11:40:10AM -0500, Paul A. Rubin wrote:
> IIRC, MSVC also uses nonstandard scoping of loop indices.  Again, my 
> memory is fuzzy, but I believe that
> 
> for (int i=1; i<10; i++) ...;
> ...
> for (int i=1; i 
> should compile correctly in any standard implementation of C/C++, but I 
> think MSVC crabs that the second occurrence of 'int i' is redefining 'i'.

This has ben changed a while ago.

Andre'

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Angus Leeming]

Enrico Forestieri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> If I had been able to compile a dynamic Qt with MinGW, could I have
> linked to it an MSVC compiled LyX?

No, I don't think so. The entry point to the MinGW dll is weird, apparently. The
MSVC exe won't be able to find the way in.

(Sorry if I sound a little vague ;-))

Angus

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Paul A. Rubin]

Michael Abshoff wrote:



Only one more rants, I promise: For a living I port C++ code to Linux,
OSX, Solaris, *BSD and sometimes HP/UX and AIX. I also need to get that
code running under Windows using MSVC (MS SVU is not an option). 99% of my
troubles stem from MSVC and Windows in general, so I have an indentation
in my desk from hitting my head repeateldly against the surface due to
frustration.



I have the symmetric indentation on my forehead.  :-)

Possibly worth noting for anyone considering using MSVC to build LyX: 
Microsoft's usual sense of humor about standards applies to elements of 
the Standard Template Library.  I can't recall specifics off-hand 
(haven't used MSVC in over a year), but I recall that BoundsChecker Pro, 
which is a commercial tool for finding memory leaks, had fits with some 
of the STL routines.  There were also some other adventures, where third 
party libraries had incompatibilities with the STL.


IIRC, MSVC also uses nonstandard scoping of loop indices.  Again, my 
memory is fuzzy, but I believe that


for (int i=1; i10; i++) ...;
...
for (int i=1; in; i++) ...;

should compile correctly in any standard implementation of C/C++, but I 
think MSVC crabs that the second occurrence of 'int i' is redefining 'i'.


Anyway, forewarned is forearmed.

/Paul

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Georg Baum]

Am Montag, 6. Februar 2006 17:40 schrieb Paul A. Rubin:
 IIRC, MSVC also uses nonstandard scoping of loop indices.  Again, my 
 memory is fuzzy, but I believe that
 
 for (int i=1; i10; i++) ...;
 ...
 for (int i=1; in; i++) ...;
 
 should compile correctly in any standard implementation of C/C++, but I 
 think MSVC crabs that the second occurrence of 'int i' is redefining 
'i'.

That was version 6 (pretty old now). The current version 8 (or 2005 since 
it is modern to replace version numbers with years now) adheres pretty 
well to the standard, and I think also version 7.


Georg

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Angus Leeming]

Enrico Forestieri [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Angus Leeming leeming at ... writes:
 
  Note that Ruurd Reitsma has had success in the past using a cygwin tool
  that takes a g++ command and converts it to an msvc one. Do a google
  search on wrapmsvc.

 Hi Angus! Welcome back 

;-)
 
 The problem is that you cannot compile Qt with the free MSVC, so even if
 you can build LyX, you would be stuck.

The problem you described doesn't sound like a real problem to me. You should 
get the Q../Free developers interested. Since they put a lot of effort into 
creating the build scripts for non-g++ builds, I'm sure they will be 
interested in getting things to work with the free MSVC compiler.

 I know that an MSVC program can call a C compiled MinGW DLL, but what
 about C++?

Sorry, I don't understand.

 OTOH I was investigating MSVC because I cannot compile a dynamic Qt
 library with MinGW (I only have 256Mb RAM and the thing needs much more).
 So the MSVC path is moot for me.

Right. The MinGW linker is a resource hog.

Angus

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Enrico Forestieri]

Angus Leeming [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  The problem is that you cannot compile Qt with the free MSVC, so even if
  you can build LyX, you would be stuck.
 
 The problem you described doesn't sound like a real problem to me. You should 
 get the Q../Free developers interested. Since they put a lot of effort into 
 creating the build scripts for non-g++ builds, I'm sure they will be 
 interested in getting things to work with the free MSVC compiler.

I think you're right, but I dumped MSVC ;-)

  I know that an MSVC program can call a C compiled MinGW DLL, but what
  about C++?
 
 Sorry, I don't understand.

If I had been able to compile a dynamic Qt with MinGW, could I have
linked to it an MSVC compiled LyX?

--
Enrico

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Paul A. Rubin]

Michael Abshoff wrote:



Only one more rants, I promise: For a living I port C++ code to Linux,
OSX, Solaris, *BSD and sometimes HP/UX and AIX. I also need to get that
code running under Windows using MSVC (MS SVU is not an option). 99% of my
troubles stem from MSVC and Windows in general, so I have an indentation
in my desk from hitting my head repeateldly against the surface due to
frustration.



I have the symmetric indentation on my forehead.  :-)

Possibly worth noting for anyone considering using MSVC to build LyX: 
Microsoft's usual sense of humor about standards applies to elements of 
the Standard Template Library.  I can't recall specifics off-hand 
(haven't used MSVC in over a year), but I recall that BoundsChecker Pro, 
which is a commercial tool for finding memory leaks, had fits with some 
of the STL routines.  There were also some other adventures, where third 
party libraries had incompatibilities with the STL.


IIRC, MSVC also uses nonstandard scoping of loop indices.  Again, my 
memory is fuzzy, but I believe that


for (int i=1; i<10; i++) ...;
...
for (int i=1; i

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Georg Baum]

Am Montag, 6. Februar 2006 17:40 schrieb Paul A. Rubin:
> IIRC, MSVC also uses nonstandard scoping of loop indices.  Again, my 
> memory is fuzzy, but I believe that
> 
> for (int i=1; i<10; i++) ...;
> ...
> for (int i=1; i 
> should compile correctly in any standard implementation of C/C++, but I 
> think MSVC crabs that the second occurrence of 'int i' is redefining 
'i'.

That was version 6 (pretty old now). The current version 8 (or 2005 since 
it is modern to replace version numbers with years now) adheres pretty 
well to the standard, and I think also version 7.


Georg

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Angus Leeming]

Enrico Forestieri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Angus Leeming  ...> writes:
> 
> > Note that Ruurd Reitsma has had success in the past using a cygwin tool
> > that takes a g++ command and converts it to an msvc one. Do a google
> > search on "wrapmsvc".

> Hi Angus! Welcome back 

;-)
 
> The problem is that you cannot compile Qt with the free MSVC, so even if
> you can build LyX, you would be stuck.

The problem you described doesn't sound like a real problem to me. You should 
get the Q../Free developers interested. Since they put a lot of effort into 
creating the build scripts for non-g++ builds, I'm sure they will be 
interested in getting things to work with the free MSVC compiler.

> I know that an MSVC program can call a C compiled MinGW DLL, but what
> about C++?

Sorry, I don't understand.

> OTOH I was investigating MSVC because I cannot compile a dynamic Qt
> library with MinGW (I only have 256Mb RAM and the thing needs much more).
> So the MSVC path is moot for me.

Right. The MinGW linker is a resource hog.

Angus

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Enrico Forestieri]

Angus Leeming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > The problem is that you cannot compile Qt with the free MSVC, so even if
> > you can build LyX, you would be stuck.
> 
> The problem you described doesn't sound like a real problem to me. You should 
> get the Q../Free developers interested. Since they put a lot of effort into 
> creating the build scripts for non-g++ builds, I'm sure they will be 
> interested in getting things to work with the free MSVC compiler.

I think you're right, but I dumped MSVC ;-)

> > I know that an MSVC program can call a C compiled MinGW DLL, but what
> > about C++?
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand.

If I had been able to compile a dynamic Qt with MinGW, could I have
linked to it an MSVC compiled LyX?

--
Enrico

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Enrico Forestieri]

Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Has anybody ever tried to compile LyX with MSVC and perhaps has a 
 project file for this?

I discovered that Qt cannot be compiled with the free MSVC because it is
missing a library (delayimp.lib).

The free MSVC does not include an IDE, so a project file is useless (you
have to use nmake).

--
Enrico

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Georg Baum]

Am Sonntag, 5. Februar 2006 17:59 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:
 Has anybody ever tried to compile LyX with MSVC and perhaps has a 
 project file for this?

See development/Win32 in 1.4cvs (might be slightly outdated).


Georg

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Michael Abshoff]

 Uwe Stöhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Has anybody ever tried to compile LyX with MSVC and perhaps has a
 project file for this?

 I discovered that Qt cannot be compiled with the free MSVC because it is
 missing a library (delayimp.lib).

 The free MSVC does not include an IDE, so a project file is useless (you
 have to use nmake).

rantLast time I checked the free Microsoft Compiler (the one shiped
with VS2003) even missed essential tools like nmake or lib! I could not
believe how useless that compiler package is. Certainly people will not be
using the free Microsoft compiler if you can't du much more than invoking
the compiler on the command line. The Express release of VS 2005 is also
supposedly free, but requires an activation (and a passport account). The
download of all needed components for that one totals roughly 550MB. Well,
if Microsoft wants certain classes of developers (students will little
money, etc.) to migrate away from free C/C++ compilers/environments like
MinGW/Cygwin they need to learn how to ship uncrippeld free stuff/rant

Michael Abshoff

PS: Sorry for the rant, but I couldn't resist :)


 --
 Enrico

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Angus Leeming]

Enrico Forestieri wrote:

 Uwe Stöhr writes:
 Has anybody ever tried to compile LyX with MSVC and perhaps has a
 project file for this?

 I discovered that Qt cannot be compiled with the free MSVC because it is
 missing a library (delayimp.lib).

 The free MSVC does not include an IDE, so a project file is useless (you
 have to use nmake).

Note that Ruurd Reitsma has had success in the past using a cygwin tool
that takes a g++ command and converts it to an msvc one. Do a google
search on wrapmsvc. Personally, I never succeeded in getting it to work,
but then I never really tried that hard.

The incentive to use it is that it would enable you to use LyX's existing
automake/conf stuff to generate config.h and build the Makefiles and to
then use MSYS's standard make to build LyX using MSVC.

I attach a script that I've used in the past to play with all this.
However, I don't think that I ever got configure to run successfully and I
certainly didn't spend any time investigating why not.

Perhaps you'll find this useful though?

-- 
Angus

confmsvs-13x
Description: application/shellscript

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Enrico Forestieri]

Angus Leeming [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Note that Ruurd Reitsma has had success in the past using a cygwin tool
 that takes a g++ command and converts it to an msvc one. Do a google
 search on wrapmsvc. Personally, I never succeeded in getting it to work,
 but then I never really tried that hard.
 
 The incentive to use it is that it would enable you to use LyX's existing
 automake/conf stuff to generate config.h and build the Makefiles and to
 then use MSYS's standard make to build LyX using MSVC.
 
 I attach a script that I've used in the past to play with all this.
 However, I don't think that I ever got configure to run successfully and I
 certainly didn't spend any time investigating why not.
 
 Perhaps you'll find this useful though?
 

Hi Angus! Welcome back ;-)

The problem is that you cannot compile Qt with the free MSVC, so even if
you can build LyX, you would be stuck.

I know that an MSVC program can call a C compiled MinGW DLL, but what
about C++?

OTOH I was investigating MSVC because I cannot compile a dynamic Qt
library with MinGW (I only have 256Mb RAM and the thing needs much more).
So the MSVC path is moot for me.

--
Enrico

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Enrico Forestieri]

Michael Abshoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 rantLast time I checked the free Microsoft Compiler (the one shiped
 with VS2003) even missed essential tools like nmake or lib! I could not
 believe how useless that compiler package is. Certainly people will not be
 using the free Microsoft compiler if you can't du much more than invoking
 the compiler on the command line. The Express release of VS 2005 is also
 supposedly free, but requires an activation (and a passport account). The
 download of all needed components for that one totals roughly 550MB. Well,
 if Microsoft wants certain classes of developers (students will little
 money, etc.) to migrate away from free C/C++ compilers/environments like
 MinGW/Cygwin they need to learn how to ship uncrippeld free stuff/rant
 
 Michael Abshoff
 
 PS: Sorry for the rant, but I couldn't resist :)

;-)

I share much of your rumblings, however you can download nmake 1.5
directly from Microsoft:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q132084
and lib can be simulated by link.exe /lib.

The free MSVC is not completely useless, indeed I was able to compile
with it a fully functional gnuplot with all the ancillary libs
(zlib, libpng, libjpeg, freetype, libgd, and pdflib).

It was quite painful to get acquainted with its quirks, though, and I
think now I understand why often you have to pay for programs on Windows ;-)

All in all, I think that MinGW/Cygwin is a much better option.

--
Enrico

P.S.: If only a couple of years ago someone had told me that I would
have been discussing about programming on Windows, I would have said
he was crazy ;-)

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Michael Abshoff]

SNIP

 ;-)

 I share much of your rumblings, however you can download nmake 1.5
 directly from Microsoft:
 http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q132084
 and lib can be simulated by link.exe /lib.

Thanks, I didn't know that.


 The free MSVC is not completely useless, indeed I was able to compile
 with it a fully functional gnuplot with all the ancillary libs
 (zlib, libpng, libjpeg, freetype, libgd, and pdflib).


The MSVC compiler itself produces pretty good code and also has excellent
documentation on MSDN. It is just that the fairly limited
autoconf/automake support with MSVC is a hinderence for lots of open
source to be compiled with it.

 It was quite painful to get acquainted with its quirks, though, and I
 think now I understand why often you have to pay for programs on Windows
 ;-)

 All in all, I think that MinGW/Cygwin is a much better option.


Agreed, if they could only produce 64 bit code on x64-64. :(

Cheers,

Michael

 --
 Enrico

 P.S.: If only a couple of years ago someone had told me that I would
 have been discussing about programming on Windows, I would have said
 he was crazy ;-)


Only one more rants, I promise: For a living I port C++ code to Linux,
OSX, Solaris, *BSD and sometimes HP/UX and AIX. I also need to get that
code running under Windows using MSVC (MS SVU is not an option). 99% of my
troubles stem from MSVC and Windows in general, so I have an indentation
in my desk from hitting my head repeateldly against the surface due to
frustration.

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Enrico Forestieri]

Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Has anybody ever tried to compile LyX with MSVC and perhaps has a 
> project file for this?

I discovered that Qt cannot be compiled with the free MSVC because it is
missing a library (delayimp.lib).

The free MSVC does not include an IDE, so a project file is useless (you
have to use nmake).

--
Enrico

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Georg Baum]

Am Sonntag, 5. Februar 2006 17:59 schrieb Uwe Stöhr:
> Has anybody ever tried to compile LyX with MSVC and perhaps has a 
> project file for this?

See development/Win32 in 1.4cvs (might be slightly outdated).


Georg

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Michael Abshoff]

> Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Has anybody ever tried to compile LyX with MSVC and perhaps has a
>> project file for this?
>
> I discovered that Qt cannot be compiled with the free MSVC because it is
> missing a library (delayimp.lib).
>
> The free MSVC does not include an IDE, so a project file is useless (you
> have to use nmake).

Last time I checked the "free" Microsoft Compiler (the one shiped
with VS2003) even missed essential tools like nmake or lib! I could not
believe how useless that compiler package is. Certainly people will not be
using the free Microsoft compiler if you can't du much more than invoking
the compiler on the command line. The Express release of VS 2005 is also
supposedly free, but requires an activation (and a passport account). The
download of all needed components for that one totals roughly 550MB. Well,
if Microsoft wants certain classes of developers (students will little
money, etc.) to migrate away from free C/C++ compilers/environments like
MinGW/Cygwin they need to learn how to ship uncrippeld "free stuff"

Michael Abshoff

PS: Sorry for the rant, but I couldn't resist :)

>
> --
> Enrico
>

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Angus Leeming]

Enrico Forestieri wrote:

> Uwe Stöhr writes:
>> Has anybody ever tried to compile LyX with MSVC and perhaps has a
>> project file for this?

> I discovered that Qt cannot be compiled with the free MSVC because it is
> missing a library (delayimp.lib).

> The free MSVC does not include an IDE, so a project file is useless (you
> have to use nmake).

Note that Ruurd Reitsma has had success in the past using a cygwin tool
that takes a g++ command and converts it to an msvc one. Do a google
search on "wrapmsvc". Personally, I never succeeded in getting it to work,
but then I never really tried that hard.

The incentive to use it is that it would enable you to use LyX's existing
automake/conf stuff to generate config.h and build the Makefiles and to
then use MSYS's standard "make" to build LyX using MSVC.

I attach a script that I've used in the past to play with all this.
However, I don't think that I ever got configure to run successfully and I
certainly didn't spend any time investigating why not.

Perhaps you'll find this useful though?

-- 
Angus

confmsvs-13x
Description: application/shellscript

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Enrico Forestieri]

Angus Leeming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Note that Ruurd Reitsma has had success in the past using a cygwin tool
> that takes a g++ command and converts it to an msvc one. Do a google
> search on "wrapmsvc". Personally, I never succeeded in getting it to work,
> but then I never really tried that hard.
> 
> The incentive to use it is that it would enable you to use LyX's existing
> automake/conf stuff to generate config.h and build the Makefiles and to
> then use MSYS's standard "make" to build LyX using MSVC.
> 
> I attach a script that I've used in the past to play with all this.
> However, I don't think that I ever got configure to run successfully and I
> certainly didn't spend any time investigating why not.
> 
> Perhaps you'll find this useful though?
> 

Hi Angus! Welcome back ;-)

The problem is that you cannot compile Qt with the free MSVC, so even if
you can build LyX, you would be stuck.

I know that an MSVC program can call a C compiled MinGW DLL, but what
about C++?

OTOH I was investigating MSVC because I cannot compile a dynamic Qt
library with MinGW (I only have 256Mb RAM and the thing needs much more).
So the MSVC path is moot for me.

--
Enrico

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Enrico Forestieri]

Michael Abshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Last time I checked the "free" Microsoft Compiler (the one shiped
> with VS2003) even missed essential tools like nmake or lib! I could not
> believe how useless that compiler package is. Certainly people will not be
> using the free Microsoft compiler if you can't du much more than invoking
> the compiler on the command line. The Express release of VS 2005 is also
> supposedly free, but requires an activation (and a passport account). The
> download of all needed components for that one totals roughly 550MB. Well,
> if Microsoft wants certain classes of developers (students will little
> money, etc.) to migrate away from free C/C++ compilers/environments like
> MinGW/Cygwin they need to learn how to ship uncrippeld "free stuff"
> 
> Michael Abshoff
> 
> PS: Sorry for the rant, but I couldn't resist :)

;-)

I share much of your rumblings, however you can download nmake 1.5
directly from Microsoft:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q132084
and lib can be simulated by "link.exe /lib".

The free MSVC is not completely useless, indeed I was able to compile
with it a fully functional gnuplot with all the ancillary libs
(zlib, libpng, libjpeg, freetype, libgd, and pdflib).

It was quite painful to get acquainted with its quirks, though, and I
think now I understand why often you have to pay for programs on Windows ;-)

All in all, I think that MinGW/Cygwin is a much better option.

--
Enrico

P.S.: If only a couple of years ago someone had told me that I would
have been discussing about programming on Windows, I would have said
he was crazy ;-)

Re: Compiling LyX for Windows - free MSVC available

[Michael Abshoff]

>
> ;-)
>
> I share much of your rumblings, however you can download nmake 1.5
> directly from Microsoft:
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q132084
> and lib can be simulated by "link.exe /lib".

Thanks, I didn't know that.

>
> The free MSVC is not completely useless, indeed I was able to compile
> with it a fully functional gnuplot with all the ancillary libs
> (zlib, libpng, libjpeg, freetype, libgd, and pdflib).
>

The MSVC compiler itself produces pretty good code and also has excellent
documentation on MSDN. It is just that the fairly limited
autoconf/automake support with MSVC is a hinderence for lots of open
source to be compiled with it.

> It was quite painful to get acquainted with its quirks, though, and I
> think now I understand why often you have to pay for programs on Windows
> ;-)
>
> All in all, I think that MinGW/Cygwin is a much better option.
>

Agreed, if they could only produce 64 bit code on x64-64. :(

Cheers,

Michael

> --
> Enrico
>
> P.S.: If only a couple of years ago someone had told me that I would
> have been discussing about programming on Windows, I would have said
> he was crazy ;-)
>

Only one more rants, I promise: For a living I port C++ code to Linux,
OSX, Solaris, *BSD and sometimes HP/UX and AIX. I also need to get that
code running under Windows using MSVC (MS SVU is not an option). 99% of my
troubles stem from MSVC and Windows in general, so I have an indentation
in my desk from hitting my head repeateldly against the surface due to
frustration.