Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 11:22:52PM +0200, Enrico Forestieri wrote: > On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 08:28:10PM +, Angus Leeming wrote: > > Andre Poenitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I have lived without jpg->ps and gif->pdf conversions for the bigger > > > part of my life and did not really miss that functionality. > > > > Ahhh, but that's because you're all of: > > * clever > > * a mathematician > > * someone whose æsthetics allow him to use one of the original X11 window > > managers because everything else is just eye candy. > > * a parent; some things just aren't that important and on-screen viewing of > > images is one of them. > > I second Andre'. > > Gnome: start gnome-terminal and wait for some 15 seconds before it > appears. At this point I even forgot because I needed a terminal. s/because/why/ > > Fvwm: start an xterm. Instantaneous. -- Enrico
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 08:28:10PM +, Angus Leeming wrote: > Andre Poenitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > I have lived without jpg->ps and gif->pdf conversions for the bigger > > part of my life and did not really miss that functionality. > > Ahhh, but that's because you're all of: > * clever > * a mathematician > * someone whose æsthetics allow him to use one of the original X11 window > managers because everything else is just eye candy. > * a parent; some things just aren't that important and on-screen viewing of > images is one of them. I second Andre'. Gnome: start gnome-terminal and wait for some 15 seconds before it appears. At this point I even forgot because I needed a terminal. Fvwm: start an xterm. Instantaneous. -- Enrico
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Andre Poenitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have lived without jpg->ps and gif->pdf conversions for the bigger > part of my life and did not really miss that functionality. Ahhh, but that's because you're all of: * clever * a mathematician * someone whose æsthetics allow him to use one of the original X11 window managers because everything else is just eye candy. * a parent; some things just aren't that important and on-screen viewing of images is one of them. ;-) Angus
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 05:15:26PM +0200, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Angus Leeming wrote: > > >You're correct. LyX will function perfectly well without ImageMagick. > > How's that working? Without Imagemagick you can't for example use > JPG-images and export the document to Postscript, you cannot use > GIF-images and export to PDF, etc. > That isn't "function perfectly well" in my opinion. I have lived without jpg->ps and gif->pdf conversions for the bigger part of my life and did not really miss that functionality. Andre'
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
On Tue, May 02, 2006 at 06:04:09PM +0200, Joost Verburg wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know LyX can be used with > limited graphic support without ImageMagick. That's correct. > It should of course be recommended to let the installer download > ImageMagick for you if it's not yet installed. Given that ImageMagick is over 7 MB alone, i should be indeed optional. Andre'
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Bo Peng wrote: This is perhaps unrelated. The biggest advantages of SWP, according to one of my friends, is that one can paste windows wmf figures directlry to SWP. I do not know how SWP is handling that, but from what I searched last time, there is no usable WMF->whatever converters. SWP has a non-free TeX system that can deal with Windows GDI data (WMF is just GDI is a file). It probably converts that to Postscript. The common method to convert WMF/GDI to Postscript is to use a Generic Postscript Printer. OLETeX is a nice tool to automate this task. Joost
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Uwe Stöhr wrote: Right, but the installer is for all users. Only a few users know the details about graphics. Most of my collegues for example used EPS-images because they didn't know that PDF can embed JPG, PNG and PDF-images directly. So the installer must include Imagemagick by default (perhaps with an option not to install it for the experts) otherwise it would be hard for new users to work with images and others surely will complain about the missing features. The new installer will download ImageMagick by default, but also have the option to install without ImageMagick. Joost
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Btw. It's one of LyX's strengths that you can use every kind of image formats directly in LyX - there's no other text program who can do this. When I want to advertise LyX this is a killer argument, because users don't want to convert images from various sources to a certain format to be able to use it in a text program. This is perhaps unrelated. The biggest advantages of SWP, according to one of my friends, is that one can paste windows wmf figures directlry to SWP. I do not know how SWP is handling that, but from what I searched last time, there is no usable WMF->whatever converters. Bo
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes writes: Uwe> How's that working? Without Imagemagick you can't for example use Uwe> JPG-images and export the document to Postscript, you cannot use Uwe> GIF-images and export to PDF, etc. That isn't "function perfectly Uwe> well" in my opinion. Some functions do not work, but LyX works if you know what you want to do. Right, but the installer is for all users. Only a few users know the details about graphics. Most of my collegues for example used EPS-images because they didn't know that PDF can embed JPG, PNG and PDF-images directly. So the installer must include Imagemagick by default (perhaps with an option not to install it for the experts) otherwise it would be hard for new users to work with images and others surely will complain about the missing features. Btw. It's one of LyX's strengths that you can use every kind of image formats directly in LyX - there's no other text program who can do this. When I want to advertise LyX this is a killer argument, because users don't want to convert images from various sources to a certain format to be able to use it in a text program. regards Uwe
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
> "Uwe" == Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Uwe> Angus Leeming wrote: >> You're correct. LyX will function perfectly well without >> ImageMagick. Uwe> How's that working? Without Imagemagick you can't for example use Uwe> JPG-images and export the document to Postscript, you cannot use Uwe> GIF-images and export to PDF, etc. That isn't "function perfectly Uwe> well" in my opinion. Some functions do not work, but LyX works if you know what you want to do. I never use Imagemagick when doing latex, so LyX should be able to do the same, right? JMarc
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Angus Leeming wrote: You're correct. LyX will function perfectly well without ImageMagick. How's that working? Without Imagemagick you can't for example use JPG-images and export the document to Postscript, you cannot use GIF-images and export to PDF, etc. That isn't "function perfectly well" in my opinion. regards Uwe
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Joost Verburg wrote: Bo Peng wrote: So at least python.exe, sh.exe etc will be in, right? Installing full python and msys is unacceptable even if they are downloaded automatically. Yes, these very essential GPL-compatible things (LyX won't configure or run without them), will be bundled. It is indeed nonsense to download a complete MSYS and Python if you only need a few files. I'm a little wary of a mini-python dist. That's what Ruurd had in his original port of LyX to Windows and we found that it was very fragile. Another question is about ImageMagick. this should not be optional since it is essential to the functioning of lyx. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know LyX can be used with limited graphic support without ImageMagick. You're correct. LyX will function perfectly well without ImageMagick. Angus
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Joost Verburg wrote: It will also make better use of methods / Windows API for the detection of external components. I'm curious about your solution. But also a look at my code to recognize the programs because there are many specialities. For example older MiKTeX versions don't remove the PATH and some registry entries, the same is for some old Ghostscript installers. That means if users had them installed in the past our installer will find them although they aren't there. I therefore check if the given executable path in the registry exists and delete the wrong and old registry entries so that the new program versions will work correctly. NSIS can also be used in such a way that it is possible to generate all installers you like (components automatically downloaded, bundled or whatever you link) from a single script. So there will be no need to have different project but there will be a single thing that should provide everything we need. That sounds interesting! I would be very happy if you want to help maintaining it in the future. I'll surely have a look at it. regards Uwe
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Uwe Stöhr wrote: Why that? What's the problem with my installer - the needed admin permission? If this is the only problem I suggest that you work on this and send patches to my installer. Because there's no need to do the work twice. I spent a lot of time on the installer and it is sad to see that the users like it, but not the developers. If it is really necessary to provide an installer with only GPLed files then I can do this easily. I always said that this is no problem but there is at the moment noo need to get rid of GSview. (Have a look at my initial mail to this thread.) The reason why I don't patch existing installers but write a new core is because it will make everything a lot easier to use maintain. The installer won't be a single huge script but will be split up into multiple files/components. It will also make better use of methods / Windows API for the detection of external components. NSIS can also be used in such a way that it is possible to generate all installers you like (components automatically downloaded, bundled or whatever you link) from a single script. So there will be no need to have different project but there will be a single thing that should provide everything we need. It's not that I want to create another installer, I hope that it is possible to merge the features of the current "official" installer and your installer. You are absolutely right that your installer is currently a lot easier to use. My goal is to make things even better and acceptable for everyone :) I will post the results soon and hope that everyone can agree to use this as a base for future installers. I would be very happy if you want to help maintaining it in the future. Then your hard work would also go into the standard installer and be available for even more people. Joost
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
I spent a lot of time on the installer and it is sad to see that the users like it, but not the developers. I have proposed long ago that you listen to the developers' concerns and try to make your installers official. I was almost ready to port your installers to the official one, untill I heard the good news that someone who is much more proficient on this started the work. If it is really necessary to provide an installer with only GPLed files then I can do this easily. I always said that this is no problem but there is at the moment noo need to get rid of GSview. (Have a look at my initial mail to this thread.) The problems are with licenses, and size of installers, and admin right. So please don't start a new installer project, this is unnecessary. It is necessary in that we need only *one* installer. If you can not make yours accepted, we have to improve the official one, or start a new one that may be accepted. Then please send me patches or write me what you think is a bug or badly programmed. That depends on Joost. I was going to follow this route, but I guess he can proceed quicker by himself. Please do not take my words personally. Bo
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Bo Peng wrote: So at least python.exe, sh.exe etc will be in, right? Installing full python and msys is unacceptable even if they are downloaded automatically. Yes, these very essential GPL-compatible things (LyX won't configure or run without them), will be bundled. It is indeed nonsense to download a complete MSYS and Python if you only need a few files. Another question is about ImageMagick. this should not be optional since it is essential to the functioning of lyx. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know LyX can be used with limited graphic support without ImageMagick. It should of course be recommended to let the installer download ImageMagick for you if it's not yet installed. I will create a new thread about this soon, so we can discuss the details there. Joost
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Joost Verburg wrote: I'm one of the NSIS developers and have a lot of experience with Windows software distribution, so I indeed decided that it is time to create a new installer Why that? What's the problem with my installer - the needed admin permission? If this is the only problem I suggest that you work on this and send patches to my installer. Because there's no need to do the work twice. I spent a lot of time on the installer and it is sad to see that the users like it, but not the developers. If it is really necessary to provide an installer with only GPLed files then I can do this easily. I always said that this is no problem but there is at the moment noo need to get rid of GSview. (Have a look at my initial mail to this thread.) So please don't start a new installer project, this is unnecessary. current limited official installer and Uwe's installer. I found a number of issues in both installers that will also be solved. Then please send me patches or write me what you think is a bug or badly programmed. regards Uwe
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
The standard installer will be small, contain only essential GPL-compatible files and automatically download components like ImageMagick, Ghostscript and MiKTeX if the users wants to. So at least python.exe, sh.exe etc will be in, right? Installing full python and msys is unacceptable even if they are downloaded automatically. Another question is about ImageMagick. this should not be optional since it is essential to the functioning of lyx. If there is a need for a non-GPL installer with bundled software, that one should be compiled from the same scripts and not be an external project with different scripts. That would be really nice. I'm now going to try the new configuration patches of Jean-Marc. If they work fine, the results of my project will be posted very soon. Thank you very much. Bo
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Bo Peng wrote: Bo> 1. free of license problem (legal) 2. only have the essentials Bo> (small). 3. try to support a wide range of settings 4. and try not Bo> to require administrate privilege This looks good, although there may be a case for a version that contains everything needed or has code to grab it automagically from the net. Joost said that he is working on a perfect installer, but did not say what he is trying to achieve. I guess we should wait for him to finish his work. Bo I'm one of the NSIS developers and have a lot of experience with Windows software distribution, so I indeed decided that it is time to create a new installer that will hopefully become official and replace both the current limited official installer and Uwe's installer. I found a number of issues in both installers that will also be solved. The standard installer will be small, contain only essential GPL-compatible files and automatically download components like ImageMagick, Ghostscript and MiKTeX if the users wants to. If there is a need for a non-GPL installer with bundled software, that one should be compiled from the same scripts and not be an external project with different scripts. I'm now going to try the new configuration patches of Jean-Marc. If they work fine, the results of my project will be posted very soon. Joost
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Bo> 1. free of license problem (legal) 2. only have the essentials Bo> (small). 3. try to support a wide range of settings 4. and try not Bo> to require administrate privilege This looks good, although there may be a case for a version that contains everything needed or has code to grab it automagically from the net. Joost said that he is working on a perfect installer, but did not say what he is trying to achieve. I guess we should wait for him to finish his work. Bo
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
> "Bo" == Bo Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Bo> Dear all, I still have not heard some agreement on how our Bo> official installer should look like. What I was proposing is Bo> something in between the two current installers that Bo> 1. free of license problem (legal) 2. only have the essentials Bo> (small). 3. try to support a wide range of settings 4. and try not Bo> to require administrate privilege This looks good, although there may be a case for a version that contains everything needed or has code to grab it automagically from the net. JMarc
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Dear all, I still have not heard some agreement on how our official installer should look like. What I was proposing is something in between the two current installers that 1. free of license problem (legal) 2. only have the essentials (small). 3. try to support a wide range of settings 4. and try not to require administrate privilege I may start porting Uwe's installer to the official one if we agree on such a plan. Bo
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 09:02:27AM +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: > Good point. Who needs "view->ps" anyway? Please? > Sure, some people might like it, but it is not a common need? > Everybody can use PDF, it is faster than ps even. Well, unless they're > using pstricks. Right. pstricks _is_ the reason. Andre'
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
On Thu, Apr 27, 2006 at 09:02:27AM +0200, Helge Hafting wrote: > Bo Peng wrote: > > >>Bo> Lyx needs Python, imagemagick etc to work, but ghostview can be > >>Bo> replaced by other gs viewers. > >> > >>Which one specifically? > >> > >> > > > >Maybe a cygwin/gv? I never did like the 'give me money' dialog when I > >open ghostview. > > > > > > > >>I am not sure I understand your scenario. The user chooses View>PS, > >>windows says there is no viewer. And then what? > >> > >> > > > >I hope you now understant it better. Windows users will know they need > >to install a ps viewer, or switch to pdf. It is not a terribly bad > >thing to fire a 'choose a program' dialog. In my view, this is better > >than a disabled 'view->ps'. > > > > > Good point. Who needs "view->ps" anyway? Sure, some people > might like it, but it is not a common need? Everybody > can use PDF, it is faster than ps even. Well, unless they're > using pstricks. But those people tend to be specialists anyway > and will understand the need for a separate viewer. View->ps is surely needed if you use pstricks or have rotated text. -- Enrico
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Bo Peng wrote: Bo> Lyx needs Python, imagemagick etc to work, but ghostview can be Bo> replaced by other gs viewers. Which one specifically? Maybe a cygwin/gv? I never did like the 'give me money' dialog when I open ghostview. I am not sure I understand your scenario. The user chooses View>PS, windows says there is no viewer. And then what? I hope you now understant it better. Windows users will know they need to install a ps viewer, or switch to pdf. It is not a terribly bad thing to fire a 'choose a program' dialog. In my view, this is better than a disabled 'view->ps'. Good point. Who needs "view->ps" anyway? Sure, some people might like it, but it is not a common need? Everybody can use PDF, it is faster than ps even. Well, unless they're using pstricks. But those people tend to be specialists anyway and will understand the need for a separate viewer. Helge Hafting
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
> This is just the case. The installer detects viewers. You can choose to > install GSview and if it's not yet installed it will be. I meant do not bundle it at all. Give a suggestion, a link and that is it. An official (sorry for this word again) installer should include only the essential part of lyx, not the viewers. This will make the installer smaller, and free of license issue because of the more restrict gsview license. > > 1. The installer is much smaller, with only the essential part of lyx. > > I.e., part of Python, a few commands from mingw, imagemagick and > > aspell. (Without ghostview and miktex) It would be easier for users > > that already have miktex etc to upgrade. > > Then use the "small" version of my installer that don't come with MiKTeX. Minus ghostview, and you will have a even 'smaller' version. > > > 2. Do not require administrative privilege so lyx can be installed by > > anyone as a viewer (or fully functional if miktex is already > > installed). This will also help upgrade (no need to email IT guys). > > That's really hard. I tried to do this but gave up. There are so many > registry problems between the programs that are hard to handle. What's > the problem to mail the IT guys, it's their job to install programs > users need? Could you be more specific about it? What I have learned are 1. lyx can be installed without administrative privilege 2. python.exe, convert.exe, sh.exe etc, if we are calling only from lyx, namely, we know the exact location of these programs, can we not mess with the registry? 3. ghostview, miktex, dump them. If we do not care about installation and uninstallation of ghostview and miktex, we will need much less registry handling, and your installer will also be simpler. Bo
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
> Bo> Lyx needs Python, imagemagick etc to work, but ghostview can be > Bo> replaced by other gs viewers. > > Which one specifically? Maybe a cygwin/gv? I never did like the 'give me money' dialog when I open ghostview. > I am not sure I understand your scenario. The user chooses View>PS, > windows says there is no viewer. And then what? I hope you now understant it better. Windows users will know they need to install a ps viewer, or switch to pdf. It is not a terribly bad thing to fire a 'choose a program' dialog. In my view, this is better than a disabled 'view->ps'. Bo
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
Bo Peng wrote: Both you and Angus have a point and I am on your side. However, if miktex is the only program that needs administrative privilege, we can consider getting ride of it from the bundle. MiKTeX don't need admin privileges to be installed, choose "Install MiKTeX only for me" in its installer. No we aren't. The installer comes with GSview that is distributed under It is not that ghostview should not be bundled, but that viewers are not essential part of lyx. Lyx needs Python, imagemagick etc to work, but ghostview can be replaced by other gs viewers. Starting from 1.4.2 (I hope), lyx will handle the whole viewer business to windows (just like other programs do) so a "choose a program" dialog will appear if a user does not have any ps viewer installed. Since acrobat reader is widely available, most users can bypass gs viewer without problem. This is just the case. The installer detects viewers. You can choose to install GSview and if it's not yet installed it will be. The same couldn't be done for Adobe Reader due to its restrictive license. But this is no problem as over 90 % of the win people have it installed by default. I guess all of us will be happier if 1. The installer is much smaller, with only the essential part of lyx. I.e., part of Python, a few commands from mingw, imagemagick and aspell. (Without ghostview and miktex) It would be easier for users that already have miktex etc to upgrade. Then use the "small" version of my installer that don't come with MiKTeX. 2. Do not require administrative privilege so lyx can be installed by anyone as a viewer (or fully functional if miktex is already installed). This will also help upgrade (no need to email IT guys). That's really hard. I tried to do this but gave up. There are so many registry problems between the programs that are hard to handle. What's the problem to mail the IT guys, it's their job to install programs users need? regards Uwe
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
> "Bo" == Bo Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Bo> It is not that ghostview should not be bundled, but that viewers Bo> are not essential part of lyx. Users do not know about that :) Bo> Lyx needs Python, imagemagick etc to work, but ghostview can be Bo> replaced by other gs viewers. Which one specifically? Bo> Starting from 1.4.2 (I hope), lyx will handle the whole viewer Bo> business to windows (just like other programs do) so a "choose a Bo> program" dialog will appear if a user does not have any ps viewer Bo> installed. Since acrobat reader is widely available, most users Bo> can bypass gs viewer without problem. I am not sure I understand your scenario. The user chooses View>PS, windows says there is no viewer. And then what? JMarc
Re: LyXWinInstaller with LyX 1.4.1 - multiple answers
> Concerning the administrator privilege Both you and Angus have a point and I am on your side. However, if miktex is the only program that needs administrative privilege, we can consider getting ride of it from the bundle. > > And we are getting rid of ghostview. > > No we aren't. The installer comes with GSview that is distributed under It is not that ghostview should not be bundled, but that viewers are not essential part of lyx. Lyx needs Python, imagemagick etc to work, but ghostview can be replaced by other gs viewers. Starting from 1.4.2 (I hope), lyx will handle the whole viewer business to windows (just like other programs do) so a "choose a program" dialog will appear if a user does not have any ps viewer installed. Since acrobat reader is widely available, most users can bypass gs viewer without problem. I also would like to dump miktex, since it is big, may already exist on the system, and requires administrative privilege. I guess all of us will be happier if 1. The installer is much smaller, with only the essential part of lyx. I.e., part of Python, a few commands from mingw, imagemagick and aspell. (Without ghostview and miktex) It would be easier for users that already have miktex etc to upgrade. 2. Do not require administrative privilege so lyx can be installed by anyone as a viewer (or fully functional if miktex is already installed). This will also help upgrade (no need to email IT guys). 3. Do not bundle miktex and check its availability of miktex and warn user if it is not found. I think users will understand since lyx is built on top of latex. Am I making any sense here? I think this takes advantage of both installers, and I hope that if you two can agree on this, we can work towards this version as the only official installer. > So that's what I can do to calm down the installer discussion. > > best regards Uwe Thank you very much for all your wonderful work. Bo
