Re: Sorting tables in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Andrew Parsloe  wrote:
> I don't think change tracking works here, since the file is modified
> *externally* (the built-in feel, although pleasing, is pure illusion). My
>
I see. What about using the CLI: Can LyX compare two documents from
the command line, and then output a third that 'tracks changes'
between the two?

If this were possible, then in theory it would be possible to come up
with a script that takes the original file, saves the processed files
to some temporary name, has LyX compare the two and output a third
file that tracks the changes between the two, and the loads this last
file in the LyX buffer. This way the user can check that all went
fine, and reject changes if not.


> solution to this problem has been to write another script which overwrites
> the current buffer with the backup file. This script is accessible with a
> further toolbar button and the buffer-reload button. If something goes
> wrong, recovery is two clicks away.
>
> Since I have a number of scripts exploiting the 'trick', each requiring an
> alternatively named LyX format, I realised at some point that I needed a
> single python master script which would call the relevant sub-script to sort
> a table or sort a list or expand an abbreviation or do a calculation ...
> according to a signal in the document. That way only one alternative LyX
> format was needed. I've used custom insets to provide the signal. Doing
> things this way also means that the same toolbar buttons (or shortcuts) can
> be used in all cases. I'm working on a find-&-replace script (e.g. across
> paragraph boundaries) at the moment, and have documentation to write and no
> doubt will burden the list with this sometime in the weeks ahead.
>
Looking forward to this.

Liviu

Re: Sorting tables in LyX

[Andrew Parsloe]

On 28/11/2012 7:59 p.m., Liviu Andronic wrote:

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 3:18 AM, Andrew Parsloe  wrote:

I've used the same trick (exporting to an alternatively named LyX format,
but retaining the lyx file extension) for a number of other tasks (e.g.
sorting lists, expanding abbreviations)


Quick question: Would it be a good idea to turn Track Changes on
before launching the script and modifying "built-in" the .lyx file?
This way the user can check that nothing funny happened to her file
(the parts that shouldn't have been modified), and visually check the
changes that happened to the parts that should have been modified.

Liviu

I don't think change tracking works here, since the file is modified 
*externally* (the built-in feel, although pleasing, is pure illusion). 
My solution to this problem has been to write another script which 
overwrites the current buffer with the backup file. This script is 
accessible with a further toolbar button and the buffer-reload button. 
If something goes wrong, recovery is two clicks away.


Since I have a number of scripts exploiting the 'trick', each requiring 
an alternatively named LyX format, I realised at some point that I 
needed a single python master script which would call the relevant 
sub-script to sort a table or sort a list or expand an abbreviation or 
do a calculation ... according to a signal in the document. That way 
only one alternative LyX format was needed. I've used custom insets to 
provide the signal. Doing things this way also means that the same 
toolbar buttons (or shortcuts) can be used in all cases. I'm working on 
a find-&-replace script (e.g. across paragraph boundaries) at the 
moment, and have documentation to write and no doubt will burden the 
list with this sometime in the weeks ahead.


Andrew

Re: Sorting tables in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 3:18 AM, Andrew Parsloe  wrote:
> I've used the same trick (exporting to an alternatively named LyX format,
> but retaining the lyx file extension) for a number of other tasks (e.g.
> sorting lists, expanding abbreviations)
>
Quick question: Would it be a good idea to turn Track Changes on
before launching the script and modifying "built-in" the .lyx file?
This way the user can check that nothing funny happened to her file
(the parts that shouldn't have been modified), and visually check the
changes that happened to the parts that should have been modified.

Liviu

Re: Sorting tables in LyX

[Andrew Parsloe]

On 28/11/2012 1:13 p.m., Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Andrew Parsloe  wrote:

I've attached a python script, tablesort.py, a module tablesort.module
containing a custom inset (suggested by Liviu Andronic), and an explanatory
document, SortingTablesInLyX.lyx detailing what goes where and how to use
it. In this third incarnation of the script, by using the custom inset,
adding three buttons to the table toolbar, and changing the Overwrite on
export setting, it is possible to sort the rows of tables in LyX in a manner
that avoids all nag/query/prompt messages and feels "built-in". Sorts may be
alphabetical or numerical, ascending or descending. The default horizontal &
vertical rules delineating table cells are not disturbed by the sort. ERT in
table cells has no effect. Yellow (or other) notes by default also do not
affect the sort, but this can be changed with the -y option when invoking
the script, allowing fine-tuning of sort order. Finally, multiple tables in
the same document can be sorted at one go.

Andrew



Thank you for this, Andrew. This work is very creative. I'm especially
impressed by your excellent documentation. Is this on the wiki
somewhere?

Scott


Thanks for the comments Scott. It's on the Wiki at

http://wiki.lyx.org/Examples/SortingTablesInLyX

("Examples" seems to be something of a catch-all) which includes a link 
to the MARC archive where the files are:


http://marc.info/?l=lyx-users&m=134800934727097&w=2

I've used the same trick (exporting to an alternatively named LyX 
format, but retaining the lyx file extension) for a number of other 
tasks (e.g. sorting lists, expanding abbreviations) and tried to sell 
the idea of a proper GUI for launching such scripts to the developers 
recently (see http://marc.info/?l=lyx-devel&m=135273675419027&w=2).


Andrew

Re: Sorting tables in LyX

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Andrew Parsloe  wrote:
> I've attached a python script, tablesort.py, a module tablesort.module
> containing a custom inset (suggested by Liviu Andronic), and an explanatory
> document, SortingTablesInLyX.lyx detailing what goes where and how to use
> it. In this third incarnation of the script, by using the custom inset,
> adding three buttons to the table toolbar, and changing the Overwrite on
> export setting, it is possible to sort the rows of tables in LyX in a manner
> that avoids all nag/query/prompt messages and feels "built-in". Sorts may be
> alphabetical or numerical, ascending or descending. The default horizontal &
> vertical rules delineating table cells are not disturbed by the sort. ERT in
> table cells has no effect. Yellow (or other) notes by default also do not
> affect the sort, but this can be changed with the -y option when invoking
> the script, allowing fine-tuning of sort order. Finally, multiple tables in
> the same document can be sorted at one go.
>
> Andrew
>

Thank you for this, Andrew. This work is very creative. I'm especially
impressed by your excellent documentation. Is this on the wiki
somewhere?

Scott

Re: Sorting tables in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 2:00 AM, Andrew Parsloe  wrote:
>> - Section 2.1: After defining the 'Converter box', it would help to
>> note that next teh user has to click Add and Apply. (Personally I find
>> this handling confusing.)
>
> (Ah, you too type "teh" for "the".)
>
Oh, I stopped paying attention to such spelling errors some time ago.
:) I type very fast, and often after pressing a 't' with my left hand
the 'e' gets hit faster than the 'h'. I guess I should scold my right
hand.


> The .lyx~ back-up file is still there. The initial buffer-write sends the
> unsorted .lyx file to .lyx~, so it should still be possible to retrieve the
> situation if the overwrite goes wrong. In fact I've just rescued myself from
> an unwanted overwrite by exactly this means. (And that suggests another
> issue which I'll put to the developers: the visibility of .lyx~ files as on
> option in LyX's Open dialog.)
>
This is still living dangerously. The backups shouldn't be taken for
granted: The option can be disabled in LyX Prefs. It would be nice if
the approach could be slightly redesigned, but my understanding is
that the implementation is stretching the limits of what LyX allows
users to do.

Maybe the Update > LyX (table) is the better approach: It may feel
less built-in, but it would give people more control over the process.

Thanks
Liviu

Re: Sorting tables in LyX

[Andrew Parsloe]

On 25/09/2012 8:59 a.m., Liviu Andronic wrote:

Andrew
Your script and module are great, and this is a functionality that
deserves getting into base LyX. Maybe worth opening a bug report for
this.


OK.


On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:01 AM, Andrew Parsloe  wrote:

I've attached a python script, tablesort.py, a module tablesort.module
containing a custom inset (suggested by Liviu Andronic), and an explanatory
document, SortingTablesInLyX.lyx detailing what goes where and how to use


Several comments:
- In the intro, 'TabelSort' should be 'TableSort'


Sigh (so much for the years I spent as a proofreader/indexer).


- Section 2.1: After defining the 'Converter box', it would help to
note that next teh user has to click Add and Apply. (Personally I find
this handling confusing.)


(Ah, you too type "teh" for "the".) I should have noted Add and Apply. 
I'll adjust the text.


Some suggestions:
- Put '1A 2A 3A 4+' in a Note so that the user could easily dissolve
the inset and try to execute teh sorting procedure.
I'll put the entire unsorted table with its sort spec. in a yellow note. 
It sorts within the note, and the reader can then compare the result 
with the sorted table in the text proper.



- My only objection when using the buffer-write; buffer-export
lyxtabsort;buffer-reload; sequence (run manually) is that after saving
the file, the file gets modified by a script and overwrites the
original file. The buffer is not marked as 'dirty', and there is no
Undo to the previous, unsorted tables. That's a bit dangerous. But I'm
not sure how this could be improved.


The .lyx~ back-up file is still there. The initial buffer-write sends 
the unsorted .lyx file to .lyx~, so it should still be possible to 
retrieve the situation if the overwrite goes wrong. In fact I've just 
rescued myself from an unwanted overwrite by exactly this means. (And 
that suggests another issue which I'll put to the developers: the 
visibility of .lyx~ files as on option in LyX's Open dialog.)




All in all excellent work! I hope that the async lfuns issue can be
solved so that sorting can be executed in one go (a button or a
shortcut). Again, I think that this functionality would be worth
integrating into LyX, and even providing some GUI for selecting the
sorting criteria.

Regards
Liviu


Thanks for the encouraging remarks.

Andrew

Re: Sorting tables in LyX

[Liviu Andronic]

Andrew
Your script and module are great, and this is a functionality that
deserves getting into base LyX. Maybe worth opening a bug report for
this.


On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:01 AM, Andrew Parsloe  wrote:
> I've attached a python script, tablesort.py, a module tablesort.module
> containing a custom inset (suggested by Liviu Andronic), and an explanatory
> document, SortingTablesInLyX.lyx detailing what goes where and how to use
>
Several comments:
- In the intro, 'TabelSort' should be 'TableSort'
- Section 2.1: After defining the 'Converter box', it would help to
note that next teh user has to click Add and Apply. (Personally I find
this handling confusing.)

Some suggestions:
- Put '1A 2A 3A 4+' in a Note so that the user could easily dissolve
the inset and try to execute teh sorting procedure.
- My only objection when using the buffer-write; buffer-export
lyxtabsort;buffer-reload; sequence (run manually) is that after saving
the file, the file gets modified by a script and overwrites the
original file. The buffer is not marked as 'dirty', and there is no
Undo to the previous, unsorted tables. That's a bit dangerous. But I'm
not sure how this could be improved.

All in all excellent work! I hope that the async lfuns issue can be
solved so that sorting can be executed in one go (a button or a
shortcut). Again, I think that this functionality would be worth
integrating into LyX, and even providing some GUI for selecting the
sorting criteria.

Regards
Liviu


> it. In this third incarnation of the script, by using the custom inset,
> adding three buttons to the table toolbar, and changing the Overwrite on
> export setting, it is possible to sort the rows of tables in LyX in a manner
> that avoids all nag/query/prompt messages and feels "built-in". Sorts may be
> alphabetical or numerical, ascending or descending. The default horizontal &
> vertical rules delineating table cells are not disturbed by the sort. ERT in
> table cells has no effect. Yellow (or other) notes by default also do not
> affect the sort, but this can be changed with the -y option when invoking
> the script, allowing fine-tuning of sort order. Finally, multiple tables in
> the same document can be sorted at one go.
>
> Andrew
>



-- 
Do you know how to read?
http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm
http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Redefinition of title (LONG) [Was: Re: sorting tables?]

[Matej Cepl]

On 2003-05-28, 06:16 GMT, Andre Poenitz wrote:
>> Likewise I don't want a default 10 point typeface with 1.5
>> inch margins on each side, I want a title that's left-justified rather
>> than centered, and so on through many choices.
> 
> The point is: You can do that, but it hurts a bit. So if you really want it
> and know what you do you can do it. But you don't do it accidentally.

If using standard article, then you can redefine [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is 
actually not so difficult. This is the original definition of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (taken directly from article.cls):

   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \newpage
 \null
 \vskip 2em%
 \begin{center}%
 \let \footnote \thanks
   {\LARGE [EMAIL PROTECTED] \par}%
   \vskip 1.5em%
   {\large
 \lineskip .5em%
 \begin{tabular}[t]{c}%
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \end{tabular}\par}%
   \vskip 1em%
   {\large [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \end{center}%
 \par
 \vskip 1.5em}

Copy this whole piece of code into your Layout/Document/Preamble and 
View/DVI again (just to check, that everything is OK). Then you can play 
with it a little bit. For example, I really prefer boldfaced title so 
I change [EMAIL PROTECTED] in this way:

   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \newpage
 \null
 \vskip 2em%
 \begin{center}%
 \let \footnote \thanks
   {\LARGE \bfseries [EMAIL PROTECTED] \par}% %\bfseries added here
   \vskip 1.5em%
   {\large
 \lineskip .5em%
 \begin{tabular}[t]{c}%
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \end{tabular}\par}%
   \vskip 1em%
   {\large [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \end{center}%
 \par
 \vskip 1.5em}

In other cases I do not want to have date in a title of my package.
There are some tricks for doing that easy way (either add empty \date{}
into Layout/Document/Preamble or just put hardspace into Date style --
which both leads to the same) documented in LyX documentation. However,
both of them have a disadvantage that they leave too obviously huge
space after title. It is better to delete part which typesets date in
title.
   
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \newpage
 \null
 \vskip 2em%
 \begin{center}%
 \let \footnote \thanks
   {\LARGE [EMAIL PROTECTED] \par}%
   \vskip 1.5em%
   {\large
 \lineskip .5em%
 \begin{tabular}[t]{c}%
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \end{tabular}}%%\par}%
   %%\vskip 1em%  % Commented out for better understanding
   %%{\large [EMAIL PROTECTED] % You can of course just deleted this
 % part of code altogether.
 \end{center}%
 \par 
 \vskip 1.5em}

And of course, you can resolve your problem with left aligned title in 
this way as well. If you take a look into the original definition of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] above, whole [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] typesetting 
(which 
obviously contains what you want title and author be) is in center 
environment. Therefore just removing \begin{center} and \end{center} 
would do what you want. What will including something like this make 
with your document?

   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \newpage
 \null
 \vskip 2em%
 \let \footnote \thanks
   {\LARGE [EMAIL PROTECTED] \par}%
   \vskip 1.5em%
   {\large
 \lineskip .5em%
 \begin{tabular}[t]{c}%
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \end{tabular}\par}%
   \vskip 1em%
   {\large [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 \par
 \vskip 1.5em}

The last advice: if you need to understand LaTeX commands take a look at  
lshort.dvi in your TeX distribution and run 'info latex' (or LaTeX2e 
help file if you are on Windows) for reference to individual commands of  
LaTeX. For example be sure before your own fiddling with [EMAIL PROTECTED] to 
understand difference between command and declaration, i.e. between 
\bfseries and \textbf. You should be also aware of subtle differences 
between effects of some similar environments and declarations, 
e.g., \begin{center}\end{center} creates new paragraph (as every 
environment does), whereas \centering does not (so you have to \par in 
the end of paragraph).

   Enjoy,

  Matej

-- 
Matej Cepl,
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB  25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC
138 Highland Ave. #10, Somerville, Ma 02143, (617) 623-1488

Re: sorting tables?

[Andre Poenitz]

On Tue, May 27, 2003 at 02:34:20PM -0700, James Frye wrote:
> On Mon, 26 May 2003, Andre Poenitz wrote:
> 
> > Same here. The default spacing follow good type setting style. Exposing
> > them to the casual user is likely to produce bad typesetting, so at least
> > my interest in making that accessible is limited.
> 
> I'd say instead that the default spacing &c follows rules laid down by
> certain academic journals and suchlike.  That does not necessarily equate
> to "good".  Just for instance, the default "new paragraph" action is,
> IIRC, to indent but not to add space.  Now if your journal wants that,
> fine, but for my own use I want no indent and a blank line between
> paragraphs. 

So do I, probably because it's not too uncommon in German typesetting.
For such things there are standard solutions and som of them are even
supported by LyX, in this case Layout->Document->Skip.

> Likewise I don't want a default 10 point typeface with 1.5
> inch margins on each side, I want a title that's left-justified rather
> than centered, and so on through many choices.

The point is: You can do that, but it hurts a bit. So if you really want it
and know what you do you can do it. But you don't do it accidentally.

> Of course there are some things that are indeed bad typesetting, I would
> defy anyone to give a logical reason why any of the options I'd like to
> set are bad in any objective sense, rather than just a matter of personal
> preference.

Proof by Authority ;-)
 
> What I would like is some sort of style editor that would let me easily
> change such things.

A style editor for logical markup would be nice indeed

In fact, I think you guys have a valid point. And if I am taking a somewhat
stonger stance than absolutely needed this is because I don't like the
reasoning 'You have to make such and such easy because it is easy in
Word'. It does not necessarily mean, that 'such' must not be easy

Andre'

-- 
Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have,
nor do they deserve, either one. (T. Jefferson or B. Franklin or both...)

Re: sorting tables?

[James Frye]

On Mon, 26 May 2003, Andre Poenitz wrote:

> Same here. The default spacing follow good type setting style. Exposing
> them to the casual user is likely to produce bad typesetting, so at least
> my interest in making that accessible is limited.

I'd say instead that the default spacing &c follows rules laid down by
certain academic journals and suchlike.  That does not necessarily equate
to "good".  Just for instance, the default "new paragraph" action is,
IIRC, to indent but not to add space.  Now if your journal wants that,
fine, but for my own use I want no indent and a blank line between
paragraphs.  Likewise I don't want a default 10 point typeface with 1.5
inch margins on each side, I want a title that's left-justified rather
than centered, and so on through many choices.

Of course there are some things that are indeed bad typesetting, I would
defy anyone to give a logical reason why any of the options I'd like to
set are bad in any objective sense, rather than just a matter of personal
preference.

What I would like is some sort of style editor that would let me easily
change such things.  If I'm e.g. writing a paper for journal X, of course
I select and use their style, but that's not what I want or need for
everyday use.

James 

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos]

On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 06:32:57PM +0200, Jean-Pierre.Chretien wrote:
> 
  Hi Jean-Pierre,
I know that you made a question but I haven't seen it. I got only a
truncated message with quoted text...

This happens sometimes, and I don't know why... the only pattern I see
is that those messages are sent from sun machines...

   If I remember your question from mail-archive the answer is yes. Python
has one module to cgi.

-- 
José

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Baruch Even]

* George De Bruin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010604 20:02]:
> On Tuesday 29 May 2001 23:46, Allan Rae wrote:
> 
> > FWIW, a number of Python folk are interested in LyX -- both for personal
> > use (with python.cls etc.) and as a possible unofficial documenting tool.
> > Their official documenting tools are a couple of scripts and any text
> > editor and they aren't about to change that in a hurry.  I know a couple
> > of people in particular who are Python gurus (one's a Python Team member)
> > who would love to get their hands dirty in LyX (with Python of course).
> 
> This would appear to support the idea I was putting forth: for each language, 
> we should have someone (or multiple people) interested in doing the support 
> of that langauge within LyX.  That way we (a) gain their expertise, and (b) 
> we don't dilute the development efforts of the LyX Team.

Nobody said anything about having only a single language, we just want
to have one "official" language. This will be the language that we, the
developers, will be commited to update.

I will be doing Python support when there will be a scripting language
support, simply because I like Python. The official language could be
Assembler for all I care, my scripts for my personal use will most
likely be done in Python. But we still need an official language so that
those who don't care about the language and only care about LyX
performing as it should will have all the features that come with LyX.
As was said already, we intend to out-source various functions of LyX to
the scripts, so the users will need some scripting language.

In fact I implemented an initial thing like this, but it requires
changes in LyX so this work is postponed until a better time (one
requirement is that I have more time).

> > Anyway, past discussions have usually ended up with Python as best because
> > it's readable/writable even for newbies.  Scheme/Lisp usually dropped as a
> > bad idea because no-one cares to type all the ()'s and Perl as a possible
> > second language.
> 
> Would it be such a big deal if someone actually wanted to do it (ie, support 
> Scheme/Lisp)?  Assuming that we make the space for them to work available, 
> then we could share in knowledge, and gain from having more languages 
> available.

No one cares if you implement a Lisp support for LyX, we will most
probably integrate it into LyX assuming it was done properly. We will
also accept a frontend for braile text if you care to write one. What is
being said is just that we want to define an official language that the
developers will commit to its support.

-- 
Baruch Even
http://baruch.ev-en.org/

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[George De Bruin]

On Tuesday 29 May 2001 23:46, Allan Rae wrote:

> FWIW, a number of Python folk are interested in LyX -- both for personal
> use (with python.cls etc.) and as a possible unofficial documenting tool.
> Their official documenting tools are a couple of scripts and any text
> editor and they aren't about to change that in a hurry.  I know a couple
> of people in particular who are Python gurus (one's a Python Team member)
> who would love to get their hands dirty in LyX (with Python of course).

This would appear to support the idea I was putting forth: for each language, 
we should have someone (or multiple people) interested in doing the support 
of that langauge within LyX.  That way we (a) gain their expertise, and (b) 
we don't dilute the development efforts of the LyX Team.

> Anyway, past discussions have usually ended up with Python as best because
> it's readable/writable even for newbies.  Scheme/Lisp usually dropped as a
> bad idea because no-one cares to type all the ()'s and Perl as a possible
> second language.

Would it be such a big deal if someone actually wanted to do it (ie, support 
Scheme/Lisp)?  Assuming that we make the space for them to work available, 
then we could share in knowledge, and gain from having more languages 
available.

And, this would probably work well for those interested in having Lua support 
as well

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Re: sorting tables?

[George De Bruin]

On Monday 28 May 2001 03:34, Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
> George De Bruin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> | Now, I see from a development point where it will be necessary to focus
> | on one or two languages for the initial implementation / testing.  But,
> | as soon as that is done I think the support should be expanded to at
> | least six or more languages to avoid any perception of bias.
>
> Perfect way to split development effort and get nothing done...

Lars, I don't see it this way.  Part of the reason is that I don't stay 
within the box of looking at the development, or the development team as 
being static.  If the resources of the team were limited to the current 
group, I would say you were correct.

However, as I mentioned in my message to Baruch (which I've just posted), why 
not make it a prerequisite that for each language implemented there be 
someone (preferably outside the core development team) to implement and 
maintain each language.

> Even:
> | This is the same as the concept of GUI independence.
>
> I do not quite agree, as said the scripting language would be used to
> implement _core_ functionality in LyX. 

Okay, I understand your point here.  However, think of this from the users 
side: what do they see when they start LyX: the GUI.  To the average user, 
the GUI is the program.

> IMO there should be _one_
> official scripting language that would need to have to be able to run
> lyx. The scripting language would preferably we distributed with LyX.
> _If_ someone would then like to use a different language with LyX that
> could easily be done by having a module for the official scripting
> language.

We get to disagree on this one. :)  If we go with one language, then we run 
into the current perception that is true with the GUI.  As it stands now 
(especially when you look at the website) LyX looks as if it is biased 
towards using XForms, and that very little work is being done on the GUI 
independence.  Add to that the responses on the KLyX mailing list to 
inquiries about it's functions (ie, use LyX instead) and you compound this 
impression.  You and I may know that isn't the case, but what else is a user 
going to think?

>  btw If we are not going to use the scripting language for _core_
> functions, then we can just do with the lyx server as it is now.

I'd say as a starting point it would be a good idea to allow the LyX server 
commands to be exported to a library that can be used in scripting languages. 
But eventually, it needs to include some way of querying and setting internal 
states in LyX.

(Just my opinion...:)

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Re: sorting tables?

[George De Bruin]

Okay, I sat back for a bit on this.  I didn't want to flood you while you 
were studying Baruch...

On Sunday 27 May 2001 01:21, Baruch Even wrote:
> I understand what you say, but you need to understand the side of the
> developers too. 

Baruch, I assure you, I understand the developer's side better than you might 
know: I have been there.

> If we do not decide that a single language is the
> official language than any feature that is moved to the scripting
> languages needs to be maintained in several languages, that's too much
> work for us to do. 

This is precisely where your logic fails, Baruch.  You are assuming limited 
resources of the team.  Why not require someone to specifically maintain each 
language supported by LyX?  Make it a pre-requisite for including a language 
in LyX's scripting support.  That way, the team isn't burdened with 
supporting each of the scripting languages.

> Obviously, it is possible that some X language hacker will step up and
> maintain a second language. We have that with GUII, but we still have
> the XForms GUI as the officially sanctioned GUI. And maintaining several

I think the GUI and the scripting languages are _very_ different situations 
from what I understand of things.  LyX was very much written around it's GUI 
initially, which has made it extremely difficult for implementing different 
GUI interfaces.  Enough so that there was some talk that LyX was going to be 
restructured to be GUI independent...  A project that seems to have been 
stalled.  And, it is *highly* desirable.  Just watch the KLyX mailing list... 
 While not a high volume, it still is getting regular posts.  This indicates 
that there is still interest in have GUI's for each environment.  I think 
this interest could easily be turned to support.

I believe this also holds true of scripting language support.

> This message gets too long and I have a Real Analysis test to learn for.

I held off on responding to this for a while...  But, I hope with your 
studies completed (at least temporarily) that you had the time to re-read 
that message.  If you haven't I would ask you to (assuming that your studies 
are done for a time), the points and problems I point out there are extremely 
significant in this situation.

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Francisco Stefano Wechsler]

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, George De Bruin wrote:

> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:04:55 -0500
> From: George De Bruin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Reuben Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>  LyX Users mailing list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)
>
> On Friday 01 June 2001 05:16, Reuben Thomas wrote:
>
> > There's also Lua (www.lua.org), which is much smaller than python, rather
>
> I just tried to go to this site, but couldn't connect to it...:(
>
> --
> George J. De Bruin
> Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
> 0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!
>

  The site is OK. I connected to it last Friday, as well as today.

Francisco Stefano Wechsler  Diga não ao monopólio: use Gnu-Linux.
Dep. Prod. Expl. Animal Enviado por meio do PINE 4.33.
Fac. Med. Vet. Zoot.Que a força do pingüim esteja contigo!
UNESP
C.P. 560
18618-000 Botucatu, SP
Brasil

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Erkko Airo]

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> On Friday 01 June 2001 05:16, Reuben Thomas wrote:
> 
> > There's also Lua (www.lua.org), which is much smaller than python, rather
> 
> I just tried to go to this site, but couldn't connect to it...:(

The link above doesn't seem to work now, but there is a working mirror
at:

http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/lua/

e.airo
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/1122/
"Erkon puheita on mukava kuunnella vaikkei niistä aina 
mitään tolkkua saakaan." P. Monto, Talouselämä 6/99

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[George De Bruin]

On Friday 01 June 2001 05:16, Reuben Thomas wrote:

> There's also Lua (www.lua.org), which is much smaller than python, rather

I just tried to go to this site, but couldn't connect to it...:(

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Reuben Thomas]

> > > Anyway, past discussions have usually ended up with Python as best because
> > > it's readable/writable even for newbies.  Scheme/Lisp usually dropped as a
> > > bad idea because no-one cares to type all the ()'s and Perl as a possible
> > > second language.

There's also Lua (www.lua.org), which is much smaller than python, rather
simpler, and was specifically designed a) to be embedded in applications and
b) as an application extension language. A typical build of the compiler/
run-time-system and standard library shared libraries is about 100kb (hence
you can easily link it statically if that's easier without much bloat).

It's a lovely little language with clean syntax, such that configuration
files can be written directly in it (if you like), and reflection of C
functions into Lua is extrememly easy.

Lua is BSD-ish licensed, and written in pure (and I do mean pure) ANSI C. It
compiles out of the box on almost anything (and it has been ported, among
other odd environments, to Palm OS, EPOC and RISC OS; indeed, on the last
two it compiles without alteration).

It is widely used as an embedded application control language, especially
for scripting game engines.

-- 
http://sc3d.org/rrt/ | Caution Children At Play Drive Slowly

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Jean-Pierre.Chretien]

>>Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:09:14 +0100
>>From: Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: LyX Users <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)
>>Mail-Followup-To: LyX Users <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
>>
>>On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:58:18PM +0200, ben wrote:
>>> Allan Rae a écrit :
>>> 
>>> > [...]
>>> >
>>> > Anyway, past discussions have usually ended up with Python as best because
>>> > it's readable/writable even for newbies.  Scheme/Lisp usually dropped as a
>>> > bad idea because no-one cares to type all the ()'s and Perl as a possible
>>> > second language.
>>> 
>>> What are the advantages of python in comparison to perl? For what purpose 
this
>>> language was developped for? I ask this because I don't know this 
language...
>>> Besides, I agree that scheme/lisp is perfectly horrible.
>>
>>  Python is a general purpose, script language.
>>  
>>  I will not tell you what are the advantage of python over perl, I will
>>just tell you why I like python over perl.
>>
>>  I have used perl before, and now I use python because the syntax is very
>>clear, the programs are easy to read after two years without looking to them.
>>
>>  I like the clear OO model over the one in perl.
>>
>>  Most of the time I use it as prototype language before passing it to
>>C(++), when I need speed.
>>
>>  Other times I use it as glue language both to write the tools I use to
>>treat the simulation data I get and to automate the action of different
>>other programs.
>>
>>  The clear syntax is a big win for me, and although it is possible to write
>>programs that are easy to read with perl it is a lot more dificult to do so.
>>  
>>  I need lots of time to use number crunching programs and the Numerical
>>module is superb for that. I mention this because python is very easy to
>>extend. That was the reason why the authors of the Module decided to use it.
>>
>>  All the aspects of the language appear to be very well thought, and this
>>is a feeling that grows as you learn more about it.
>>
>>  One other feature I like is ability to run it in an interactive session.
>>  
>>  Just some thoughts, there is very good documentation at
>>http://www.python.org
>>
>>> BG
>>
>>  A-python-convict ly
>>-- 
>>José

Any equivalent of the CGI.pm Perl module and the various gateways
towards SGBD or OLE data structures ? (a bit off the LyX thread, but...)

-- 
Jean-Pierre

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Jose Abilio Oliveira Matos]

On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:58:18PM +0200, ben wrote:
> Allan Rae a écrit :
> 
> > [...]
> >
> > Anyway, past discussions have usually ended up with Python as best because
> > it's readable/writable even for newbies.  Scheme/Lisp usually dropped as a
> > bad idea because no-one cares to type all the ()'s and Perl as a possible
> > second language.
> 
> What are the advantages of python in comparison to perl? For what purpose this
> language was developped for? I ask this because I don't know this language...
> Besides, I agree that scheme/lisp is perfectly horrible.

  Python is a general purpose, script language.
  
  I will not tell you what are the advantage of python over perl, I will
just tell you why I like python over perl.

  I have used perl before, and now I use python because the syntax is very
clear, the programs are easy to read after two years without looking to them.

  I like the clear OO model over the one in perl.

  Most of the time I use it as prototype language before passing it to
C(++), when I need speed.

  Other times I use it as glue language both to write the tools I use to
treat the simulation data I get and to automate the action of different
other programs.

  The clear syntax is a big win for me, and although it is possible to write
programs that are easy to read with perl it is a lot more dificult to do so.
  
  I need lots of time to use number crunching programs and the Numerical
module is superb for that. I mention this because python is very easy to
extend. That was the reason why the authors of the Module decided to use it.

  All the aspects of the language appear to be very well thought, and this
is a feeling that grows as you learn more about it.

  One other feature I like is ability to run it in an interactive session.
  
  Just some thoughts, there is very good documentation at
http://www.python.org

> BG

  A-python-convict ly
-- 
José

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[ben]

Allan Rae a écrit :

> [...]
>
> Anyway, past discussions have usually ended up with Python as best because
> it's readable/writable even for newbies.  Scheme/Lisp usually dropped as a
> bad idea because no-one cares to type all the ()'s and Perl as a possible
> second language.

What are the advantages of python in comparison to perl? For what purpose this
language was developped for? I ask this because I don't know this language...
Besides, I agree that scheme/lisp is perfectly horrible.

BG

Re: csv2lyx (was Re: sorting tables?)

[A.Gulino]

I will change the english in the documentation (and the suggestion too, of
course)

When I have made the changes, I post it. The script self I will send it at you,
and
who ask me.
If someone want, I send the script (version 0.0.0fix1 :-) in the mailinglist
self.

Guenter Milde wrote:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > I send you my very little perlscript. If you think it is long, its not true.
> > there are a only 30 codelines, the rest is documentation.
> It works fine on my system - still I have some suggestions for improvements:
> (unfortunately I don't know pearl, so I cannot do this by myself easily)
^
  perl, without "a". it's a pearl, shur :-)

> 1. Documentation
> > If you don't want a float table, then can you delete the default-title, the word
> > "Senseless" will are delete.
> 
> This was not clear to me at all.
> After considering to ask you to translate this to German, I found out by trying
> what happens... I suppose you meant
> 
> > If you don't want a float table, then you can delete the default-title,
> > the word "Senseless" will disappear.
"disappear". I think you are right.
(sorry for the non-german-speaking-people :-) Auf jeden Fall, hatte ich
folgendes gemeint:
Wenn du eine normale tabelle willst, statt einer Floating-Tabelle, dann lösche
den Titel,
und schon verschwindet das Wort "Senseless" (das nicht editierbar ist)

 
> 2. However, I would like if I had the option to turn off the title
>completely, e.g.
> >  --title="A pretty title for a pretty table" (default:"Title of the LyX table")
>--title="" (no title)
>At present, the word Senseless appears also in this case - with an empty
>senseless title)

Maybe, if I don't write "caption". I must try.
But then i must include the following option
--nofloat

> 3.HOW USE IT (under Linux):
> >  antonio@bidone:~ >cat mycsvfile | csv2lyx > mytmptable.lyx
> 
>It would be more straightformward, if one could do
>antonio@bidone:~ >csv2lyx mycsvfile
>to get mycsvfile.lyx and
>antonio@bidone:~ >csv2lyx mycsvfile  mytmptable.lyx
>in case a different output filename is wanted.
I have an idea:
--fileoutput="mytmptable.whatyoutwant.lyxParExample" (default: StandardOut =
Screen)
--lyxfile (without parameters) (the same as
--fileoutput="inputfilenameWithoutExtension.lyx")

 
> 4. I would much appreciate an option to turn on the lines separating
>rows/collumns. (one global option might do, possibly 2 for rows and
>collums separately: there is no problem to change one or two linesettings
>(to separate the first row, say) but it is quite a lot of clicking to
>change it for all rows/collumns.
I don't know if I have understand.
You want an option to tell at the script, that he must made a line on the top 
and on the bottom of the first row.
(sorry for the non-german-speaking-people :-)
Du möchtest al option die möglichkeit den Header (die erste Zeile) anders zu
formatieren.
z.B. die erste zeile mit linie oben und unten, die zeite zeile, oben. alle
anderen nicht.
die letzte nur unter.
Idee:
--header (without parameters, for the moment) (first row: line top and bottom,
second row: line top)
I use 1.1.4fix1, so my script must be compatible with this version.
Ok. Idea:
--version="1.1.4fix1"

 
> could this script be called from the external inset? Would the table then appear
> in the GUI or just a [external inset] button?

??? Sorry !
? You want let the mytmptable.lyx in a file. so if you change the csv-file you
dont must redo
the formatting.
In this case the optionslist must be longer. Maybe it is better use an html-like
syntax.
I-self want do somethings like this.
If you have some ideas...
A) 
= bold (align valid for the whole column)
B) --header (first row bold, line on top and bottom)
   --align="rlrcr" (first column=right, second=left, thirt=right, "

Nicht unbedingt verstanden.
Meinst du: kann man dieses komische table.lyx als separates file lassen, oder
muss man
ihn unbedingt defintiv importiere?
Wenn diese die Frage war, dass habe ich folgende Antwort.
Habe noch nicht probiert. Möchte es aber. Dann sollte man die möglichkeit haben,
mit den optionen des perlscripts
auch die formatierung im griff zu bekommen.
Habe noch nicht entschieden ob ich weiter ein tab-sep-val file benütze, oder die
syntax con html.
Die syntax von html hat ja viele ähnliche funktionen: colspan,
align="right|left|center", width, border
Natürlich müsste man die Syntax ein weinig ändern, aber, wie der liebe Wall
sagt: eine tugend ist die Faulheit!

ciao,
antonio

Re: csv2lyx (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Guenter Milde]

On Fri, 25 May 2001 08:54:50 +0200 wrote A.Gulino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hi folks,
> I send you my very little perlscript. If you think it is long, its not true.
> there are a only 30 codelines, the rest is documentation.

Hi Antonio,

thanks for that little script of yours- I like it and I like it to be well
documented :-)

It works fine on my system - still I have some suggestions for improvements:
(unfortunately I don't know pearl, so I cannot do this by myself easily)

1. Documentation
> If you don't want a float table, then can you delete the default-title, the word
> "Senseless" will are delete.

This was not clear to me at all.
After considering to ask you to translate this to German, I found out by trying
what happens... I suppose you meant

> If you don't want a float table, then you can delete the default-title, 
> the word "Senseless" will disappear.

2. However, I would like if I had the option to turn off the title
   completely, e.g.
>  --title="A pretty title for a pretty table" (default:"Title of the LyX table")
   --title="" (no title)
   At present, the word Senseless appears also in this case - with an empty
   senseless title)
   
3.HOW USE IT (under Linux):
>  antonio@bidone:~ >cat mycsvfile | csv2lyx > mytmptable.lyx

   It would be more straightformward, if one could do
   antonio@bidone:~ >csv2lyx mycsvfile
   to get mycsvfile.lyx and
   antonio@bidone:~ >csv2lyx mycsvfile  mytmptable.lyx
   in case a different output filename is wanted.


4. I would much appreciate an option to turn on the lines separating
   rows/collumns. (one global option might do, possibly 2 for rows and
   collums separately: there is no problem to change one or two linesettings
   (to separate the first row, say) but it is quite a lot of clicking to
   change it for all rows/collumns.

but, despite of my nagging - Thanks again for the good job

Dear Lyx-gurus,

could this script be called from the external inset? Would the table then appear
in the GUI or just a [external inset] button?

Guenter


Guenter


--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Allan Rae]

On Sun, 27 May 2001, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
[...]
[ Baruch wrote this bit ]
> > The implementation as I expect it to be, will not force you to use one
> > language over the other, only if you want the official scripts you'll
> > need the official language. There is a need however to make the
> > scripting language easy enough for as many as users as possible so that
> > most of the users will not need to have multiple languages in LyX.
>
> That's why I'm glad that GIMP now has two scripting languages.  Scheme
> was the official one, but they added the perl module after that.  I
> admit I haven't yet learnt how to script for GIMP, but it's far more
> likely now, because I don't have to learn a whole new language as well
> as learning the GIMP-specific things needed to script GIMP.
>
> So as for languages that people are likely to know, you've got Lisp (for
> all those emacs-Lisp folks), and Perl, and the next New Thing, Python.
> I don't know about the knowledge-base for Scheme... and I've never heard
> of Icon.

FWIW, a number of Python folk are interested in LyX -- both for personal
use (with python.cls etc.) and as a possible unofficial documenting tool.
Their official documenting tools are a couple of scripts and any text
editor and they aren't about to change that in a hurry.  I know a couple
of people in particular who are Python gurus (one's a Python Team member)
who would love to get their hands dirty in LyX (with Python of course).

Then as a second official language we have Perl.  Maybe this would
encourage Perl mongers to test and maintain the lonely reLyX.  Or we just
let the Python gurus rewrite reLyX in Python ;-)   Python is supposed to
be faster than Perl anyway :P

Anyway, past discussions have usually ended up with Python as best because
it's readable/writable even for newbies.  Scheme/Lisp usually dropped as a
bad idea because no-one cares to type all the ()'s and Perl as a possible
second language.

Allan. (ARRae)

Re: sorting tables?

[Lars Gullik Bjønnes]

George De Bruin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

| Now, I see from a development point where it will be necessary to focus on 
| one or two languages for the initial implementation / testing.  But, as soon 
| as that is done I think the support should be expanded to at least six or 
| more languages to avoid any perception of bias.

Perfect way to split development effort and get nothing done...

Even:
| This is the same as the concept of GUI independence. 

I do not quite agree, as said the scripting language would be used to
implement _core_ functionality in LyX. IMO there should be _one_
official scripting language that would need to have to be able to run
lyx. The scripting language would preferably we distributed with LyX.
_If_ someone would then like to use a different language with LyX that
could easily be done by having a module for the official scripting
language.

... btw If we are not going to use the scripting language for _core_
functions, then we can just do with the lyx server as it is now.
 
-- 
Lgb

Re: sorting tables?

[Baruch Even]

I understand what you say, but you need to understand the side of the
developers too. If we do not decide that a single language is the
official language than any feature that is moved to the scripting
languages needs to be maintained in several languages, that's too much
work for us to do. We have better things to do than maintain the same
feature with more than one language.

Obviously, it is possible that some X language hacker will step up and
maintain a second language. We have that with GUII, but we still have
the XForms GUI as the officially sanctioned GUI. And maintaining several
GUIs does take a drain on our resources, effectively the non-XForms
development is on hold for now since most frontend developers are in
no-free-time mode. We all need to remember that the developers are doing
it all on their free time and for the fun and feeling of accomplishment
that they get from it, I know that I will not want to maintain some
feature in several scripts, though nobody forbids you or others to
maintain them in equivalent languages.

The script language support is not too hard, once there will be a
complete interface for this in LyX, adding a script language will depend
only on how hard it is to link it into LyX, with smart definitions, most
of the binding definitions can be done automatically. 

This message gets too long and I have a Real Analysis test to learn for. 

* George De Bruin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010527 09:07]:
> On Saturday 26 May 2001 11:11, Baruch Even wrote:
> 
> 
> > The need is for an "Official language" not necessarily a single one, but
> > one that is expected to be available in most installations, possibly it
> > will be available out of the box from packages. This is to make it
> > possible to have a library of scripts, and to allow removing things
> > currently implemented in LyX into the official scripting language.
> 
> And there couldn't be a standard 'library' of scripts in two or three (or 
> more) languages?  Then you would just download the one that you want on your 
> system.  I guess I just look at this and think anytime you select one 
> "official" anything you open up the potential for mis-understanding or 
> mis-interpretation.  Most people see things that are "official" as being an 
> endorsement for, or a bias towards the "official" item.
> 
> > The implementation as I expect it to be, will not force you to use one
> > language over the other, only if you want the official scripts you'll
> > need the official language. There is a need however to make the
> 
> Okay, for arguments sake (from personal experience) here's the reaction this 
> will get:
> 
>   Why is that?  I don't have the "official" language on my system, and you are 
>   telling me that I have to install that language?  Mess around with my stable 
>   system configuration to add scripting support and get full functionality for 
>   an application?  Forget it.
> 
> Another reaction:
> 
>   That language isn't supported at my site.  Guess I can't use it at all.
> 
>   Guess I don't get the full functionality of LyX.
> 
> > scripting language easy enough for as many as users as possible so that
> > most of the users will not need to have multiple languages in LyX.
> 
> Agreed, it needs to be as easy as possible for the "user/administrator*.  
> Therefore, we should support the languages the users and administrators are 
> comfortable with.  The user/administrator can then download the scripts in 
> the language they are comfortable with / want to administer.
> 
> Now, I see from a development point where it will be necessary to focus on 
> one or two languages for the initial implementation / testing.  But, as soon 
> as that is done I think the support should be expanded to at least six or 
> more languages to avoid any perception of bias.
> 
> This is the same as the concept of GUI independence. 
> 
> Just my opinion...with a little experience thrown in
> 
> -- 
> George J. De Bruin
> Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
> 0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

-- 
Baruch Even
http://baruch.ev-en.org/

Re: sorting tables?

[George De Bruin]

On Saturday 26 May 2001 11:11, Baruch Even wrote:


> The need is for an "Official language" not necessarily a single one, but
> one that is expected to be available in most installations, possibly it
> will be available out of the box from packages. This is to make it
> possible to have a library of scripts, and to allow removing things
> currently implemented in LyX into the official scripting language.

And there couldn't be a standard 'library' of scripts in two or three (or 
more) languages?  Then you would just download the one that you want on your 
system.  I guess I just look at this and think anytime you select one 
"official" anything you open up the potential for mis-understanding or 
mis-interpretation.  Most people see things that are "official" as being an 
endorsement for, or a bias towards the "official" item.

> The implementation as I expect it to be, will not force you to use one
> language over the other, only if you want the official scripts you'll
> need the official language. There is a need however to make the

Okay, for arguments sake (from personal experience) here's the reaction this 
will get:

Why is that?  I don't have the "official" language on my system, and you are 
telling me that I have to install that language?  Mess around with my stable 
system configuration to add scripting support and get full functionality for 
an application?  Forget it.

Another reaction:

That language isn't supported at my site.  Guess I can't use it at all.
 
Guess I don't get the full functionality of LyX.

> scripting language easy enough for as many as users as possible so that
> most of the users will not need to have multiple languages in LyX.

Agreed, it needs to be as easy as possible for the "user/administrator*.  
Therefore, we should support the languages the users and administrators are 
comfortable with.  The user/administrator can then download the scripts in 
the language they are comfortable with / want to administer.

Now, I see from a development point where it will be necessary to focus on 
one or two languages for the initial implementation / testing.  But, as soon 
as that is done I think the support should be expanded to at least six or 
more languages to avoid any perception of bias.

This is the same as the concept of GUI independence. 

Just my opinion...with a little experience thrown in

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Languages (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Kathryn Andersen]

On Sat, May 26, 2001 at 07:11:51PM +0300, Baruch Even wrote:
> * George De Bruin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010526 19:05]:
> > On Wednesday 23 May 2001 11:17, Baruch Even wrote:
> > 
> > > To follow up on these comments and enthusiasm (and a developers
> > > discussion), what is the language of choice for such an embedded
> > > scripting language is from your perspective?
> > >
> > > Several options that were raised (and I rememeber) include Icon,
> > > Lisp, Scheme and Python.
> > 
> > Personally, I liked the concept of implementing this to support multiple 
> > languages so you could chose your own.  (Not only do people have personal 
> > preferences, but they may also have existing code bases that they want or 
> > need to integrate new code with.)
> 
> The need is for an "Official language" not necessarily a single one, but
> one that is expected to be available in most installations, possibly it
> will be available out of the box from packages. This is to make it
> possible to have a library of scripts, and to allow removing things
> currently implemented in LyX into the official scripting language.
> 
> The implementation as I expect it to be, will not force you to use one
> language over the other, only if you want the official scripts you'll
> need the official language. There is a need however to make the
> scripting language easy enough for as many as users as possible so that
> most of the users will not need to have multiple languages in LyX.

That's why I'm glad that GIMP now has two scripting languages.  Scheme
was the official one, but they added the perl module after that.  I
admit I haven't yet learnt how to script for GIMP, but it's far more
likely now, because I don't have to learn a whole new language as well
as learning the GIMP-specific things needed to script GIMP.

So as for languages that people are likely to know, you've got Lisp (for
all those emacs-Lisp folks), and Perl, and the next New Thing, Python.
I don't know about the knowledge-base for Scheme... and I've never heard
of Icon.

Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Thanks to the diligence of the FBI,
this particular vaccuum cleaner will not fall into the wrong hands."
-- Howard Hughes(Rocketeer)
-- 
 _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
/  \|   
\_.--.*/|   
  v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

Re: sorting tables?

[George De Bruin]

On Thursday 24 May 2001 07:01, Joao B. Oliveira wrote:

> Before choosing a language that will affect our (happy) LyX lives,
> what requirements are really being made on this language? I

The requirements are going to vary on a user by user basis.  For example, I 
see the examples you listed as being important (although, macro expansion is 
not quite as much a requirement for me as the others).

For me personally, the first thing that I can think of right off is the 
ability to manipulate the buffer that contains a document.  And, I would like 
to be able to manipulate it both as displayed (ie, not reading the internal 
code / structure of the document), and as stored internally (ie, with the 
document structure).  The reason for this is some scripts I would like to 
have look at the displayed text (for items like a word count script, or other 
text manipulation like swapping characters, words, lines...)

The reason for looking at the internal structure would be for things like 
looking at the cvs fields which are stored as comments, or possibly hiding my 
own information in comments that I can manipulate from a script.

So, basically, the way I see it is that we should really look more at what 
needs to be exported and provide that.  Each language should have a way to 
import the commands and structures that we export.

There is another reason that I don't want to limit the language choice: 
integration with pre-existing code bases.  For example, I may already have a 
set of scripts in perl or python that use php and mysql to dynamically 
generate web content.  If want to use LyX to author some of the information 
that I am going to put into my online database, I would like to write an 
interface script that reuses my existing perl or python code as much as 
possible. (Perl and python are only examples here, you can plug in language 
'x' for them.)

> Other question: what about enlarging (if necessary) the language
> already used in the minibuffer? It would be nice to have the same
> language being used twice.

Well, personally, I haven't found the language in the mini-buffer to be all 
that useful at this point.  I haven't found a case where I could really use 
it. However, I think what we are looking at is exporting those commands and 
functions to whatever language, as well as structures so you can 
examine/query LyX's current state, etc.

I guess the major point is to allow both: tailoring and customizing of the 
interactive editing environment, as well as providing an interface to the 
rest of the world.

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Re: sorting tables?

[Baruch Even]

* George De Bruin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010526 19:05]:
> On Wednesday 23 May 2001 11:17, Baruch Even wrote:
> 
> > To follow up on these comments and enthusiasm (and a developers
> > discussion), what is the language of choice for such an embedded
> > scripting language is from your perspective?
> >
> > Several options that were raised (and I rememeber) include Icon,
> > Lisp, Scheme and Python.
> 
> Personally, I liked the concept of implementing this to support multiple 
> languages so you could chose your own.  (Not only do people have personal 
> preferences, but they may also have existing code bases that they want or 
> need to integrate new code with.)

The need is for an "Official language" not necessarily a single one, but
one that is expected to be available in most installations, possibly it
will be available out of the box from packages. This is to make it
possible to have a library of scripts, and to allow removing things
currently implemented in LyX into the official scripting language.

The implementation as I expect it to be, will not force you to use one
language over the other, only if you want the official scripts you'll
need the official language. There is a need however to make the
scripting language easy enough for as many as users as possible so that
most of the users will not need to have multiple languages in LyX.

-- 
Baruch Even
http://baruch.ev-en.org/

Re: sorting tables?

[George De Bruin]

On Wednesday 23 May 2001 11:17, Baruch Even wrote:

> To follow up on these comments and enthusiasm (and a developers
> discussion), what is the language of choice for such an embedded
> scripting language is from your perspective?
>
> Several options that were raised (and I rememeber) include Icon,
> Lisp, Scheme and Python.

Personally, I liked the concept of implementing this to support multiple 
languages so you could chose your own.  (Not only do people have personal 
preferences, but they may also have existing code bases that they want or 
need to integrate new code with.)

However, if we have to chose just one, my vote would go to Python.

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Re: csv2lyx (was Re: sorting tables?)

[Robin Turner]

Just tried running it, but perl -d came out with "unrecognized character \xA0 
at line 60" (which seems to be in the middle of a comment, so shouldn't 
apply, unless perl only numbers lines with instructions - it's been so long I 
can't remember).

Looks pretty nifty if I can make it work though, thanks!

Robin

csv2lyx (was Re: sorting tables?)

[A.Gulino]

"Joao B. Oliveira" wrote:
> Antonio wrote:
>>"Joao B. Oliveira" wrote:
>>> See? Does not look that bad, but an even better solution would be
>>> *other* feature: import .cvs files directly as tables. 
>>I have a little perlscript that produce a floattable (or a simple table) in
>>lyx-format from a tab-separated-value file. (or comma separteded or "!"
>>separated, how you like) (for 4fix1 and 6fix1)
> I really think that such a script for converting tables would be really
> useful! Why don't you publish it on our list? It is always a nice tool
> to have (and if we don't have it, it is nice to know where to find it!)

Hi folks,
I send you my very little perlscript. If you think it is long, its not true.
there are a only 30 codelines, the rest is documentation.

Documentation? 
Yes. pod (perl|poor|pretty old documentation).
on Linux do this: name@host ~/> pod2html csv2lyx > csv2lyx.html

how use it? look the documentation! 
ok, ok. a little help (from the documentation :-)
Sorry for my english (if you want I can translate it to italian, german or
french)

ciao, antonio
(my home e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])

csv2lyx  - converter from csv-file to a LyX table 
===
HOW USE IT (under Linux):
=
 antonio@bidone:~ >cat mycsvfile | csv2lyx > mytmptable.lyx

Then in LyX: Insert->LyXfile mytmptable.lyx

If you don't want a float table, then can you delete the default-title, the word
"Senseless" will are delete.

If you want a float table, then mark the title _and_ the table and then insert a
floattable

 Insert->LyX File mytmptable.lyx
 [mark the title and the table]
 Insert->Float->Float table

the word "Senseless" will change to "Table"

Options
===

 --separator="what you want" (default: "\t" for a tab-sep-value file)
 --title="A pretty title for a pretty table" (default:"Title of the LyX table")

==
==

#! /usr/bin/perl
# csv2lyx
# Copyright (C) 2001 Antonio Gulino
# This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under
# the term of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software
# Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or any later version.

=pod
=head1 NAME

csv2lyx - converter from csv-file to a LyX table

Converts a Comma Separated Value file to a float table in LyX format.
Good for LyX version 1.1.4fix1 and other.

=head1 HOW USE IT

under Linux:

 antonio@bidone:~ >cat mycsvfile | csv2lyx > mytmptable.lyx

Then in LyX: Insert->LyXfile mytmptable.lyx

If you don't want a float table, then can you delete the default-title, the word 
"Senseless"
will are delete.

If you want a float table, then mark the title and the table and then insert a 
floattable

 Insert->LyX File mytmptable.lyx
 [mark the title and the table]
 Insert->Float->Float table

=head2 Options

 --separator="what you want" (default: "\t" for a tab-sep-value file)
 --title="A pretty title for a pretty table" (default:"Title of the LyX table")


=head1 AUTHOR and COPYLEFT

Copyright (C) 2001, Antonio Gulino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under
the term of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software
Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or any later version.

=cut

# l'input non e' il nome di un file, ma il file stesso
# l'output avviene sullo schermo
# dunque l'utilizzo e' cosi:
# antonio@bidone > cat filecsv.csv | csv2lyx | filedioutput

# di default il separatore e' un tabulatore

use Getopt::Long;
$OPT_separator = "\t";
$OPT_title = 'Title of the LyX table';
&GetOptions( "separator=s" => \$OPT_separator,
 "title=s" => \$OPT_title,);

@csv = <>;
chomp(@csv);
# vediamo quante righe ci sono
# how many row (=righe) are there?
$righe = $#csv + 1;

# adesso leggo l'intero array e creo una matrice: @matrix
# contemporaneamente calcolo il numero massimo di campi, per sapere quante colonne mi 
servono
# now i read the whole array and put it into a matrix : @matrix
# at the same time i look how many column (=colonne) have the biggest row
$col = 0;
foreach my $r (@csv) {
my @r = split $OPT_separator, $r;
$colonne = $#r + 1 if $colonne <= $#r;
push @matrix, [@r];
}

# adesso stampo il codice lyx. l'allineamento avviene a destra (immagino che di solito 
siano cifre)
# produco automaticamente una float table,
# versione funzionante per la 1.1.4fix1
# now I print the LyX format. Align=right (I think this is a matrix of numbers)
# dafault: a float table

print <

Re: sorting tables?

[Andre Poenitz]

> Other question: what about enlarging (if necessary) the language
> already used in the minibuffer?

I think it's a safe guess that the languange used in the minibuffer will be
replaced by the Chosen Scripting Language at some point of time...

Andre'


-- 
André Pönitz . [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: sorting tables?

[Joao B. Oliveira]

> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:17:08PM +0300, Baruch Even wrote:
> > To follow up on these comments and enthusiasm (and a developers
> > discussion), what is the language of choice for such an embedded
> > scripting language is from your perspective?
> > 
> > Several options that were raised (and I rememeber) include Icon,
> > Lisp, Scheme and Python.

I have a question on this (and I do not work with any of these
languages, so I cannot be accused of being unfair!!):

Before choosing a language that will affect our (happy) LyX lives,
what requirements are really being made on this language? I
mean, what do we really need? If we can decide what kinds of
things are necessary, we can choose the language best supporting
these capabilities... does anyone can give a few details of the
capabilities that the LyX Behavioral Language should have? Do
we need (easy) string capabilities? Environment descriptions?
Macro expansions like TeX? Other things I do not even dream about?

Other question: what about enlarging (if necessary) the language
already used in the minibuffer? It would be nice to have the same
language being used twice.

j. b. 

Re: sorting tables?

[Baruch Even]

* Kathryn Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010524 09:52]:
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:17:08PM +0300, Baruch Even wrote:
> > To follow up on these comments and enthusiasm (and a developers
> > discussion), what is the language of choice for such an embedded
> > scripting language is from your perspective?
> > 
> > Several options that were raised (and I rememeber) include Icon,
> > Lisp, Scheme and Python.
> 
> So I guess that means that Perl is out of the question?

Not necessarily, just that it's way down in my preferences :-)

-- 
Baruch Even
http://baruch.ev-en.org/

Re: sorting tables?

[Kathryn Andersen]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:17:08PM +0300, Baruch Even wrote:
> To follow up on these comments and enthusiasm (and a developers
> discussion), what is the language of choice for such an embedded
> scripting language is from your perspective?
> 
> Several options that were raised (and I rememeber) include Icon,
> Lisp, Scheme and Python.

So I guess that means that Perl is out of the question?

Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jadie Crane: Eddison!  An off-switch!
Metro Cop: She'll get years for that.  Off-switches are illegal.
(Max Headroom: The Blanks)
-- 
 _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
/  \|   
\_.--.*/|   
  v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Lars Gullik Bjønnes]

Ronald Florence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

| Allan Rae writes:
| 
|   On 23 May 2001, Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
|   > What is .cvs?
|   
|   csv
|   
|   comma separated values
|   
| Isn't .cvs the suffix for non-stable (development) versions of LyX?
| According to the LDN: `... all releases without a suffix are stable
| releases.'[1]  The development versions are shown with a .cvs suffix. 
| 
| csv, the abbreviation for comma-separated-values, is not the same as
| .cvs.

not quite. cvs version have 1.2.0cvs format.
 
-- 
Lgb

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Rem]

Everyone seems to be having the same problem...  The server tried to send
the e-mails through a wormhole, eh?!
R
- Original Message -
From: "Robin Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LyX Users" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]


> On Wednesday 23 May 2001 18:17, Allan Rae wrote:
> > On 23 May 2001, Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
> > > What is .cvs?
> >
> > csv
> >
> > comma separated values
>
> Yup, that's what I meant.  My tendency to reverse keys is one reason I
never
> got very far with Prel scripting ;-)
>
> > Allan. (ARRae)
> > Why is it taking so bloody long for my emails to get back from the
mailing
> > list?  I announced LDN almost half an hour ago and the emails still
> > haven't arrived!
>
> There's something weird going on at the server.  I keep getting
error-mails
> telling me that I couldn't send mail to various people at
> localhost.localdomain (and no, it's not my sendmail program, because I use
> SMTP).
>
>
>

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Robin Turner]

On Wednesday 23 May 2001 16:18, Juergen Vigna wrote:
> On 23-May-2001 Niklas Werner wrote:
> > this would allow for importing database-records as well, since dumping
> > them cvs-split is fairly easy.
> > I'd like to add that to the 2.0-wishlist!
>
> I already told here that this IS already possible. Just select the tsv
> (tab-separated-value) in f.ex. emacs and paste it in a created empty
> tabular!
>
Life is too short for emacs ;-)

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Robin Turner]

On Wednesday 23 May 2001 18:17, Allan Rae wrote:
> On 23 May 2001, Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
> > What is .cvs?
>
> csv
>
> comma separated values

Yup, that's what I meant.  My tendency to reverse keys is one reason I never 
got very far with Prel scripting ;-)

> Allan. (ARRae)
> Why is it taking so bloody long for my emails to get back from the mailing
> list?  I announced LDN almost half an hour ago and the emails still
> haven't arrived!

There's something weird going on at the server.  I keep getting error-mails 
telling me that I couldn't send mail to various people at 
localhost.localdomain (and no, it's not my sendmail program, because I use 
SMTP).

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Ronald Florence]

Allan Rae writes:

  On 23 May 2001, Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
  > What is .cvs?
  
  csv
  
  comma separated values
  
Isn't .cvs the suffix for non-stable (development) versions of LyX?
According to the LDN: `... all releases without a suffix are stable
releases.'[1]  The development versions are shown with a .cvs suffix. 

csv, the abbreviation for comma-separated-values, is not the same as
.cvs.

-- 

Ronald Florence http://members.home.net/18james


Footnotes: 
[1]  http://www.lyx.org/news/20001018.php3#editorial3

Re: sorting tables?

[Baruch Even]

* George De Bruin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010523 18:12]:
> On Wednesday 23 May 2001 06:56, Baruch Even wrote:
> 
> > Hopefully in the future we will have an embedded scripting language in LyX
> > and features like this one will be implementable with it. This will
> > satisfy the feature-bloat proponents and the feature-bloat opponents, you
> > will be able to use such features if you want and you will be able to
> > disable the scripting language altogether if you dont want any of this.
> 
> Even better: you will be able to chose which extension packages you want to 
> use with LyX, if any!  I can see a great deal of power in this...  For 
> example having a scipt that lets me query a database, build and sort a table 
> and insert the results in LyX in a single step.  Certainly this could be done 
> with the many tools available under Unix, however it's certainly going to be 
> more complicated than desirable in some situations (such as building 
> invoices, bills, etc.)

You can do this now with the External Inset, the only problem is that
you need to create the LaTeX code yourself for the included data. The
External inset allows you to run a script of your own choice, in your
language of choice and to emit the latex code needed for your needs.

> Of course there are many more examples where a scripting language would be 
> useful, but I won't get into them. :)

Some of them can use the External Inset, though it is a wish list item
that the developers themselves are pondering and intend to work on, in a
future version, an initial proof of concept was written and shelved
until a more appropriate time, so there is still hope to see your
favourite wish-list item implemented.

-- 
Baruch Even
http://baruch.ev-en.org/

Re: sorting tables?

[Baruch Even]

* Joao B. Oliveira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010523 17:37]:
> > On Wednesday 23 May 2001 14:56, Baruch Even wrote:
> > > Hopefully in the future we will have an embedded scripting language in LyX
> > > and features like this one will be implementable with it. This will
> > > satisfy the feature-bloat proponents and the feature-bloat opponents, you
> > > will be able to use such features if you want and you will be able to
> > > disable the scripting language altogether if you dont want any of this.
> > 
> > Now _that_ would really rock!
> 
> And we could exchange bits of LyX code as today we exchange pieces
> of LaTeX!!!
> 
> The True Light strikes again!!

To follow up on these comments and enthusiasm (and a developers
discussion), what is the language of choice for such an embedded
scripting language is from your perspective?

Several options that were raised (and I rememeber) include Icon,
Lisp, Scheme and Python.

-- 
Baruch Even
http://baruch.ev-en.org/

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Baruch Even]

* Robin Turner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010523 17:37]:
> On Wednesday 23 May 2001 15:28, Baruch Even wrote:
> > * Niklas Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010523 15:25]:
> > > > See? Does not look that bad, but an even better solution would be
> > > > *other* feature: import .cvs files directly as tables. This seems a
> > > > better solution, as data are produced in your favorite spreadsheet,
> > > > exported as cvs and imported in LyX as tables.
> > >
> > > this would allow for importing database-records as well, since dumping
> > > them cvs-split is fairly easy.
> > > I'd like to add that to the 2.0-wishlist!
> >
> > For integrating external input sources we have the "External Inset",
> > this beast can (with the proper configuration) insert everything into
> > your page, all you'll need is a support program and the correct latex
> > code to insert it.
> 
> How exactly do you configure it?  In the menu I see how to change the 
> converters LyX uses for various formats, but nothing to add a format - I 
> could really do with .cvs there.

Check out the file $prefix/share/lyx/external_templates
Where $prefix is /usr or /usr/local depending on your installation.

This file defines the various external formats that are accepted for
inclusion and how to insert them into the output format
(latex/docbook/linuxdoc).

It is a bit cryptic, but you can probably figure it out from the
examples that are already in it.

And as Juergen already said, it is possible to paste a Tab seperated
table into the tabular.

The external inset is useful if the table might change from time to
time, and will be very useful if it changes often.

Obviously, if you create such a template for the external inset, we will
be happy to get it for a possible inclusion in the LyX distribution.

-- 
Baruch Even
http://baruch.ev-en.org/

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Allan Rae]

On 23 May 2001, Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote:
> What is .cvs?

csv

comma separated values

Allan. (ARRae)
Why is it taking so bloody long for my emails to get back from the mailing
list?  I announced LDN almost half an hour ago and the emails still
haven't arrived!

Re: sorting tables?

[George De Bruin]

On Wednesday 23 May 2001 06:56, Baruch Even wrote:

> Hopefully in the future we will have an embedded scripting language in LyX
> and features like this one will be implementable with it. This will
> satisfy the feature-bloat proponents and the feature-bloat opponents, you
> will be able to use such features if you want and you will be able to
> disable the scripting language altogether if you dont want any of this.

Even better: you will be able to chose which extension packages you want to 
use with LyX, if any!  I can see a great deal of power in this...  For 
example having a scipt that lets me query a database, build and sort a table 
and insert the results in LyX in a single step.  Certainly this could be done 
with the many tools available under Unix, however it's certainly going to be 
more complicated than desirable in some situations (such as building 
invoices, bills, etc.)

Of course there are many more examples where a scripting language would be 
useful, but I won't get into them. :)

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Re: sorting tables?

[George De Bruin]

On Wednesday 23 May 2001 04:54, Robin Turner wrote:

> front-end for 'nix hackers, little features like sortable lists will make a
> lot of difference.  I'm not advocating feature-bloat (if I want that, I can
> download Star Office!) just a few bits and bobs to make life easier.

Of course, this is also something that could be implemented with the 
integration of a good scripting language in LyX. :) That way, it could also 
be customized / tailored to the user's specific needs.

Okay, just had to get a word in for my favorite LyX wishlist item. :))

-- 
George J. De Bruin
Check Out 0l0rin's New Age compositions at http://mp3.com/0l0rin
0l0rin's latest recording "Collection" is available now!

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Lars Gullik Bjønnes]

Robin Turner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

| On Wednesday 23 May 2001 15:28, Baruch Even wrote:
| > * Niklas Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010523 15:25]:
| > > > See? Does not look that bad, but an even better solution would be
| > > > *other* feature: import .cvs files directly as tables. This seems a
| > > > better solution, as data are produced in your favorite spreadsheet,
| > > > exported as cvs and imported in LyX as tables.
| > >
| > > this would allow for importing database-records as well, since dumping
| > > them cvs-split is fairly easy.
| > > I'd like to add that to the 2.0-wishlist!
| >
| > For integrating external input sources we have the "External Inset",
| > this beast can (with the proper configuration) insert everything into
| > your page, all you'll need is a support program and the correct latex
| > code to insert it.
| 
| How exactly do you configure it?  In the menu I see how to change the 
| converters LyX uses for various formats, but nothing to add a format - I 
| could really do with .cvs there.

What is .cvs?

-- 
Lgb

Re: sorting tables?

[Joao B. Oliveira]

> On Wednesday 23 May 2001 14:56, Baruch Even wrote:
> > Hopefully in the future we will have an embedded scripting language in LyX
> > and features like this one will be implementable with it. This will
> > satisfy the feature-bloat proponents and the feature-bloat opponents, you
> > will be able to use such features if you want and you will be able to
> > disable the scripting language altogether if you dont want any of this.
> 
> Now _that_ would really rock!

And we could exchange bits of LyX code as today we exchange pieces
of LaTeX!!!

The True Light strikes again!!

j. b. 

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Robin Turner]

On Wednesday 23 May 2001 15:28, Baruch Even wrote:
> * Niklas Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010523 15:25]:
> > > See? Does not look that bad, but an even better solution would be
> > > *other* feature: import .cvs files directly as tables. This seems a
> > > better solution, as data are produced in your favorite spreadsheet,
> > > exported as cvs and imported in LyX as tables.
> >
> > this would allow for importing database-records as well, since dumping
> > them cvs-split is fairly easy.
> > I'd like to add that to the 2.0-wishlist!
>
> For integrating external input sources we have the "External Inset",
> this beast can (with the proper configuration) insert everything into
> your page, all you'll need is a support program and the correct latex
> code to insert it.

How exactly do you configure it?  In the menu I see how to change the 
converters LyX uses for various formats, but nothing to add a format - I 
could really do with .cvs there.

BTW, the External feature seems to work better with fix2 - I have had no 
problems with JPGs etc.

Robin

RE: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Juergen Vigna]

On 23-May-2001 Niklas Werner wrote:

> this would allow for importing database-records as well, since dumping
> them cvs-split is fairly easy.
> I'd like to add that to the 2.0-wishlist!

I already told here that this IS already possible. Just select the tsv
(tab-separated-value) in f.ex. emacs and paste it in a created empty
tabular!

Jürgen

--
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Dr. Jürgen VignaE-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Italienallee 13/N   Tel/Fax: +39-0471-450260 / +39-0471-450253
I-39100 Bozen   Web: http://www.sad.it/~jug
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._

Zippy's brain cells are straining to bridge synapses ...

Re: [Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Baruch Even]

* Niklas Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010523 15:25]:
> > See? Does not look that bad, but an even better solution would be
> > *other* feature: import .cvs files directly as tables. This seems a
> > better solution, as data are produced in your favorite spreadsheet,
> > exported as cvs and imported in LyX as tables.
> 
> this would allow for importing database-records as well, since dumping
> them cvs-split is fairly easy.
> I'd like to add that to the 2.0-wishlist!

For integrating external input sources we have the "External Inset",
this beast can (with the proper configuration) insert everything into
your page, all you'll need is a support program and the correct latex
code to insert it.

This doesn't import it into the document, the data still resides in an
external file, but it will be added to the latex (docbook/linuxdoc) output.

-- 
Baruch Even
http://baruch.ev-en.org/

Re: sorting tables?

[Robin Turner]

On Wednesday 23 May 2001 14:56, Baruch Even wrote:
> Hopefully in the future we will have an embedded scripting language in LyX
> and features like this one will be implementable with it. This will
> satisfy the feature-bloat proponents and the feature-bloat opponents, you
> will be able to use such features if you want and you will be able to
> disable the scripting language altogether if you dont want any of this.

Now _that_ would really rock!

Robin

[Fwd: Re: sorting tables?]

[Niklas Werner]

keep forgetting to reply to the list ;-(, probably getting old...

 Original Message 
Betrifft: Re: sorting tables?
Datum: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:12:38 +0200
Von: Niklas Werner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organisation: WebCrew
An: "Joao B. Oliveira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Verweise: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Hi There!


... about table features ...

> 
> 1) with the *nix tools that everybody should know about (to live
> a happier life under the Church of the True Light of Unix)

;-) 

> See? Does not look that bad, but an even better solution would be
> *other* feature: import .cvs files directly as tables. This seems a
> better solution, as data are produced in your favorite spreadsheet,
> exported as cvs and imported in LyX as tables.

this would allow for importing database-records as well, since dumping
them cvs-split is fairly easy.
I'd like to add that to the 2.0-wishlist!

Have fun*

Niklas

Re: sorting tables?

[Baruch Even]

Hopefully in the future we will have an embedded scripting language in LyX
and features like this one will be implementable with it. This will
satisfy the feature-bloat proponents and the feature-bloat opponents, you
will be able to use such features if you want and you will be able to
disable the scripting language altogether if you dont want any of this.

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Joao B. Oliveira wrote:

> > 
> > > If you have the data from some other application which allows
> > > formatted printing, conditional predicates and sorting functions, this
> > > kind of problem is readily solved by printing in a file the
> > > latex or lyx code and the data as you want it
> > > and inputting it in the document. It may be worth to write
> > > a short piece of code in your favourite tool to do it.
> > 
> > Definitely something to add to the 2.0 wishlist!  If LyX is going to be a 
> > working tool for the average user, rather than just a convenient LaTeX 
> > front-end for 'nix hackers, little features like sortable lists will make a 
> > lot of difference.  I'm not advocating feature-bloat (if I want that, I can 
> > download Star Office!) just a few bits and bobs to make life easier.
> 
> Isn't that a bit of overkill? I mean, it *is* something of a
> feature-bloating to me... it can be done more or less easily:
> 
> 1) with the *nix tools that everybody should know about (to live
> a happier life under the Church of the True Light of Unix)
> 
> 2) with some other tool like Gnumeric or StarOffice or whatever...
> 
> As an "average" user, I do not like the idea of having such a
> feature cluttering menus and being used three times on a lifetime...
> 
> > (BTW, my dirty solution to the ordered table thing is to use a Gnumeric 
> > spreadsheet then import it as EPS.)
> 
> See? Does not look that bad, but an even better solution would be
> *other* feature: import .cvs files directly as tables. This seems a
> better solution, as data are produced in your favorite spreadsheet,
> exported as cvs and imported in LyX as tables.
> 
> This seems more reasonable (as a feature), but I have to admit that I
> am against it for the same reasons as before...  :-)
> 
> j. b. 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: sorting tables?

[Joao B. Oliveira]

> 
> > If you have the data from some other application which allows
> > formatted printing, conditional predicates and sorting functions, this
> > kind of problem is readily solved by printing in a file the
> > latex or lyx code and the data as you want it
> > and inputting it in the document. It may be worth to write
> > a short piece of code in your favourite tool to do it.
> 
> Definitely something to add to the 2.0 wishlist!  If LyX is going to be a 
> working tool for the average user, rather than just a convenient LaTeX 
> front-end for 'nix hackers, little features like sortable lists will make a 
> lot of difference.  I'm not advocating feature-bloat (if I want that, I can 
> download Star Office!) just a few bits and bobs to make life easier.

Isn't that a bit of overkill? I mean, it *is* something of a
feature-bloating to me... it can be done more or less easily:

1) with the *nix tools that everybody should know about (to live
a happier life under the Church of the True Light of Unix)

2) with some other tool like Gnumeric or StarOffice or whatever...

As an "average" user, I do not like the idea of having such a
feature cluttering menus and being used three times on a lifetime...

> (BTW, my dirty solution to the ordered table thing is to use a Gnumeric 
> spreadsheet then import it as EPS.)

See? Does not look that bad, but an even better solution would be
*other* feature: import .cvs files directly as tables. This seems a
better solution, as data are produced in your favorite spreadsheet,
exported as cvs and imported in LyX as tables.

This seems more reasonable (as a feature), but I have to admit that I
am against it for the same reasons as before...  :-)

j. b. 

RE: sorting tables?

[Juergen Vigna]

On 22-May-2001 Dave Brown wrote:
> Is there any sort of Latex command that will automatically sort a table 
>alphabetically
> by, say, the first column, leaving the header at the top?  Barring this, is there any
> way to sort the table automatically or do I have to make sure I'm entering the data 
>in
> alphabetical order?

You probably have to input the data in the right sense (or if you have a file
with tab-separated-values you may consider to sort it with unix-sort and the
cut and paste it into the tabular).

  Jürgen

--
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Dr. Jürgen VignaE-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Italienallee 13/N   Tel/Fax: +39-0471-450260 / +39-0471-450253
I-39100 Bozen   Web: http://www.sad.it/~jug
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._

I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
-- Alexandre Dumas, fils

Re: sorting tables?

[Robin Turner]

On Wednesday 23 May 2001 10:12, Jean-Pierre.Chretien wrote:

> >Is there any sort of Latex command that will automatically sort a table
>> alphabetically by, say, the first column, leaving the header at the top?
>> Barring this, is there any way to sort the table automatically or do I have
>> to make sure I'm entering the data in alphabetical order?

> If you have the data from some other application which allows
> formatted printing, conditional predicates and sorting functions, this
> kind of problem is readily solved by printing in a file the
> latex or lyx code and the data as you want it
> and inputting it in the document. It may be worth to write
> a short piece of code in your favourite tool to do it.

Definitely something to add to the 2.0 wishlist!  If LyX is going to be a 
working tool for the average user, rather than just a convenient LaTeX 
front-end for 'nix hackers, little features like sortable lists will make a 
lot of difference.  I'm not advocating feature-bloat (if I want that, I can 
download Star Office!) just a few bits and bobs to make life easier.

(BTW, my dirty solution to the ordered table thing is to use a Gnumeric 
spreadsheet then import it as EPS.)

Robin

Re: sorting tables?

[Jean-Pierre.Chretien]

>>X-Apparently-From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>From: "Dave Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "LyX Users" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: sorting tables?
>>Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:43:03 -0700
>>
>>Is there any sort of Latex command that will automatically sort a table 
alphabetically by, say, the first column, leaving the header at the top?  
Barring this, is there any way to sort the table automatically or do I have to 
make sure I'm entering the data in alphabetical order?
>>
>>Thanks for any help.
>>
>>Dave Brown

If you have the data from some other application which allows
formatted printing, conditional predicates and sorting functions, this
kind of problem is readily solved by printing in a file the
latex or lyx code and the data as you want it 
and inputting it in the document. It may be worth to write 
a short piece of code in your favourite tool to do it.

Following this line, you deal independently with the table
formatting and the document itself, of course you must re-run
to update, but any change in a whole set of calculated data
is much easier to manage.

-- 
Jean-Pierre

Re: sorting tables?

[Rodrigo Esteves de Lima-Lopes]

i don't know any latex command, but you can do it pretty well under linux
or unix envoirment though 'sort'  command, which is part of
text-utilities.

However, I think you'll have to have pure ask data, what is not hard to
get 

[]s
lima-lopes

R.E. de Lima-Lopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
GNU/Linux Registered User # 182240

On Tue, 22 May 2001, Dave Brown wrote:

> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:43:03 -0700
> From: Dave Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: LyX Users <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: sorting tables?
> 
> Is there any sort of Latex command that will automatically sort a table 
>alphabetically by, say, the first column, leaving the header at the top?  Barring 
>this, is there any way to sort the table automatically or do I have to make sure I'm 
>entering the data in alphabetical order?
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> Dave Brown
>