Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Jim Anderson]

> -Original Message-
> 
> Sadly it is from.an era long before small system standards.  How cool
> would the world be if we could have standardised on a single floppy
> format.
> 
> We couldn't even get RS232 right

Reminds me of a favourite old saying... "Standards are great!  That's why we 
have so many of them!"







jim

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Brian K. White]

On 3/13/20 7:56 PM, James Zeun wrote:
You know what, it's very tempting as I find soldering very cathartic. 
But the cable is ordered now.


I'm gutted the DVI writes floppys in a different format to the TPDD. 
Curse you Tandy!


It's really the TPDD that is weird. It's not just a different data 
layout, it's a different magnetic signal. The TPDD drive really was just 
meant for the knitting machines first, which didn't need to try to 
adhere to any kind of interoperability standard beyond the physical 
media. But the hardware was cheap and the connection was ttl serial, and 
the protocol was easy, and so I guess it was irresistable to try to doll 
it up into a storage device for the M100's because anything was better 
than the cassettes.


But DVI is, not standard, but at least almost standard, or more 
standard. At least normal drives and drive controllers (old ones anyway) 
can at least read the tracks in the normal way without Kryoflux.



On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 6:16 pm Brian K. White, > wrote:


On 3/13/20 5:15 AM, James Zeun wrote:
 > Well of course I knew I could buy a £4 cable and save myself half an
 > hour soldering 40 wires, well 80! What do you take me for some
sort of
 > idiot? *Cough* :-P
 >
 > There's always someone with a bright idea. Well I'm going to make
coffee
 > and try to not feel too disappointed about all that soldering I'm
 > missing out on, now I have a 30cm extension cable ordered.
 >
 > *Goes off grumbling to himself*
 >
 > Thanks Brian! ;-)

Someone else said splice you didn't, but in this same conversation,
so I
just addressed it all in one post.

Are you *sure* you don't want to perform 80 solder and heat-shrink
splices? It can be very zen. :)

-- 
bkw


 > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 5:34 am Brian White, mailto:b.kenyo...@gmail.com>
 > >> wrote:
 >
 >     It's easier than that. If you take pretty much any idc
connector and
 >     put it back to back or hed yo head with another, the end
result is
 >     the "twist" where pin 1 switches places with pin 40, pin 2
switches
 >     places with pin 39, etc.
 >
 >     What I mean by "any idc" is, for instance, a wire-to-board
back to
 >     back with a male pin header. That makes a Model 102 or 200 cable.
 >
 >

http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable#Cable_supporting_models_102_and_200_only
 >
 >     Another form of the same thing is if you put 2 male pin
headers back
 >     to back, that makes an adapter that can serve as the the
twisty part
 >     on a cable set that works on all 3 models.
 >
 > http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable
 >
 >     Or head to head: Mike Stein showed me (well everyone) that if you
 >     just take any standard 40 pin cables and butt two female ends
face
 >     to face with a "gender changer" pin header, that results in
the same
 >     twist.
 >
 >     That page above has links to buy all the odd parts for the
different
 >     ways to do it.
 >
 >     But for a pcb to do the switcheroo, the pcb is nothing more
than 40
 >     straight lines just to make it easier to solder two plugs back to
 >     back. See the "twist adapter" link in that page.
 >
 >     You don't have to splice anything to make the cable longer.
Just buy
 >     or make a bog-standard 40 pin male-female extension cable,
and stick
 >     it on the DVI end of the cable. They are readily available
pre-made
 >     and cheap these days in the form of "gpio" cables for arduino or
 >     raspberry pi.
 >
 >     You can search "male female gpio" or similar on ebay or just
pick a
 >     length here:
 >
 > http://www.cablesonline.com/240pinidedir.html
 >
 >     --
 >     bkw
 >
 >     On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:33 PM RETRO Innovations
 >     mailto:go4re...@go4retro.com>
>> wrote:
 >
 >         On 3/12/2020 4:17 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
 >>         
 >>         Hi Jim,
 >>         I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard'
 >>         40-pin DIP headers have been impossible to find; maybe with
 >>         your resources you can find some somewhere so they can just
 >>         simply be crimped on.
 >
 >         I'm wondering if the switch could be made at the other
end, with
 >         a small PCB and the respective female header attached to
it...
 >
 >


-- 
bkw





--
bkw

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Greg Swallow]

All:

Been crazy business at work, so catching up a bit on this one. Don't 
know how much help this might be, but it is what I have experienced.


I have two M100 as portable and another that stays connected to the DVI 
due to the DVI_DOS vs REX_MGR issue. Am already used to similar DVI 
problems from using PCSG ROMs with the DVI. Lucid at 80 columns and 25 
lines would be so nice. I am presently converting my Windows computers 
to openSuse Linux -- one more to go, and have no target for TS-DOS. 
Could connect M100 to M100, but that is an issue due to limited work 
space. So, I also have a CCR-81 connected to the DVI M100 and carry a 
Sharp when portable. Cassette storage seems to unaffected by anything 
else involved. Was able to find a handful of NOS Maxell UR60 audio 
cassettes at GoodWill for only $1.29 each for quite a bit of portable 
storage. Splicing is the easiest way to get rid of the leader. A little 
bulking, but it works.


Would have preferred the format of diskettes to be the same between 
portable and DVI. Especially since I have swapped out 5.25 for 3.5 inch 
(1.44MB) drives in the DVI. Am thinking I might plunge and get the GoTek 
USB floppy adapter to try in the DVI, but a again portable and DVI would 
be different formats.


As for cable length? I used an old IDE cable and extender -- not EIDE, 
to make a M100 to DVI set using Mike Stein's instruction here: 
http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable . The Male/Male joiner 
allows for easy swapping between M100 & M102 as well. My total cable 
length is something like 18 inches with no foil/shielding, Haven't had 
any dropped bits as of yet.



God bless,

GregS <><

On 3/14/20 3:39 AM, Josh Malone wrote:
On Sat, Mar 14, 2020, 5:22 AM > wrote:


Well the DVI won’t work with REX manager loaded in the computers
memory. Which means, if I write a document and it’s relatively
large. My options are, save it to floppy on the DVI or store it in
memory and hope that there is enough free ram to load REX manager
so I can load in the TS-DOS rom.


You don't need to load REXMGR to load TS-DOS - just load TS-DOS and 
then unload REXMGR before connecting the DVI.

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[B4 Me100]

You may want to take a look at the
http://www.club100.org/library/libdrv.html archive.  It has a few programs
that seem to swap the DVI and TS-DOS.  I have not used any of them but there
might be something of use?

From:  M100  on behalf of

Reply-To:  
Date:  Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 2:22 AM
To:  
Subject:  Re: [M100] DVI cable length

> Well the DVI won’t work with REX manager loaded in the computers memory. Which
> means, if I write a document and it’s relatively large. My options are, save
> it to floppy on the DVI or store it in memory and hope that there is enough
> free ram to load REX manager so I can load in the TS-DOS rom. Then I can
> transfer the document off the computer and on to SD card.
> 
> IF the DVI had saved in a TPDD format, it would have been a piece of cake.
> 1. Save to disk
> 2. Unhook DVI
> 3. Load REX back in to memory
> 4. Connect TPDD2 and retrieve saved file
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 14 Mar 2020, at 1:16 am, Mike Stein  wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> - Original Message -
>> From: James Zeun
>> To: m...@bitchin100.com
>> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 7:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [M100] DVI cable length
>> 
>> 
>>> > I'm gutted the DVI writes floppys in a different format to the TPDD. Curse
>>> you Tandy!
>>  
>> Just curious; what'd you have in mind?
>> 
>> 

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Josh Malone]

On Sat, Mar 14, 2020, 5:22 AM  wrote:

> Well the DVI won’t work with REX manager loaded in the computers memory.
> Which means, if I write a document and it’s relatively large. My options
> are, save it to floppy on the DVI or store it in memory and hope that there
> is enough free ram to load REX manager so I can load in the TS-DOS rom.
>

You don't need to load REXMGR to load TS-DOS - just load TS-DOS and then
unload REXMGR before connecting the DVI.

>

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[james . zeun]

Well the DVI won’t work with REX manager loaded in the computers memory. Which 
means, if I write a document and it’s relatively large. My options are, save it 
to floppy on the DVI or store it in memory and hope that there is enough free 
ram to load REX manager so I can load in the TS-DOS rom. Then I can transfer 
the document off the computer and on to SD card.

IF the DVI had saved in a TPDD format, it would have been a piece of cake. 
1. Save to disk
2. Unhook DVI
3. Load REX back in to memory
4. Connect TPDD2 and retrieve saved file


Sent from my iPad

> On 14 Mar 2020, at 1:16 am, Mike Stein  wrote:
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: James Zeun 
> To: m...@bitchin100.com 
> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 7:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [M100] DVI cable length
> 
> 
> > I'm gutted the DVI writes floppys in a different format to the TPDD. Curse 
> > you Tandy!
>  
> Just curious; what'd you have in mind?
> 
> 

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: James Zeun 
To: m...@bitchin100.com 
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [M100] DVI cable length


> I'm gutted the DVI writes floppys in a different format to the TPDD. Curse 
> you Tandy!

Just curious; what'd you have in mind?

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Doug Jackson]

Sigh...

Sadly it is from.an era long before small system standards.  How cool would
the world be if we could have standardised on a single floppy format.

We couldn't even get RS232 right

On Sat, 14 Mar. 2020, 10:56 am James Zeun,  wrote:

> You know what, it's very tempting as I find soldering very cathartic. But
> the cable is ordered now.
>
> I'm gutted the DVI writes floppys in a different format to the TPDD. Curse
> you Tandy!
>
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 6:16 pm Brian K. White,  wrote:
>
>> On 3/13/20 5:15 AM, James Zeun wrote:
>> > Well of course I knew I could buy a £4 cable and save myself half an
>> > hour soldering 40 wires, well 80! What do you take me for some sort of
>> > idiot? *Cough* :-P
>> >
>> > There's always someone with a bright idea. Well I'm going to make
>> coffee
>> > and try to not feel too disappointed about all that soldering I'm
>> > missing out on, now I have a 30cm extension cable ordered.
>> >
>> > *Goes off grumbling to himself*
>> >
>> > Thanks Brian! ;-)
>>
>> Someone else said splice you didn't, but in this same conversation, so I
>> just addressed it all in one post.
>>
>> Are you *sure* you don't want to perform 80 solder and heat-shrink
>> splices? It can be very zen. :)
>>
>> --
>> bkw
>>
>> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 5:34 am Brian White, > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > It's easier than that. If you take pretty much any idc connector and
>> > put it back to back or hed yo head with another, the end result is
>> > the "twist" where pin 1 switches places with pin 40, pin 2 switches
>> > places with pin 39, etc.
>> >
>> > What I mean by "any idc" is, for instance, a wire-to-board back to
>> > back with a male pin header. That makes a Model 102 or 200 cable.
>> >
>> >
>> http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable#Cable_supporting_models_102_and_200_only
>> >
>> > Another form of the same thing is if you put 2 male pin headers back
>> > to back, that makes an adapter that can serve as the the twisty part
>> > on a cable set that works on all 3 models.
>> >
>> > http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable
>> >
>> > Or head to head: Mike Stein showed me (well everyone) that if you
>> > just take any standard 40 pin cables and butt two female ends face
>> > to face with a "gender changer" pin header, that results in the same
>> > twist.
>> >
>> > That page above has links to buy all the odd parts for the different
>> > ways to do it.
>> >
>> > But for a pcb to do the switcheroo, the pcb is nothing more than 40
>> > straight lines just to make it easier to solder two plugs back to
>> > back. See the "twist adapter" link in that page.
>> >
>> > You don't have to splice anything to make the cable longer. Just buy
>> > or make a bog-standard 40 pin male-female extension cable, and stick
>> > it on the DVI end of the cable. They are readily available pre-made
>> > and cheap these days in the form of "gpio" cables for arduino or
>> > raspberry pi.
>> >
>> > You can search "male female gpio" or similar on ebay or just pick a
>> > length here:
>> >
>> > http://www.cablesonline.com/240pinidedir.html
>> >
>> > --
>> > bkw
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:33 PM RETRO Innovations
>> > mailto:go4re...@go4retro.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On 3/12/2020 4:17 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> Hi Jim,
>> >> I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard'
>> >> 40-pin DIP headers have been impossible to find; maybe with
>> >> your resources you can find some somewhere so they can just
>> >> simply be crimped on.
>> >
>> > I'm wondering if the switch could be made at the other end, with
>> > a small PCB and the respective female header attached to it...
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> bkw
>>
>

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[James Zeun]

You know what, it's very tempting as I find soldering very cathartic. But
the cable is ordered now.

I'm gutted the DVI writes floppys in a different format to the TPDD. Curse
you Tandy!



On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 6:16 pm Brian K. White,  wrote:

> On 3/13/20 5:15 AM, James Zeun wrote:
> > Well of course I knew I could buy a £4 cable and save myself half an
> > hour soldering 40 wires, well 80! What do you take me for some sort of
> > idiot? *Cough* :-P
> >
> > There's always someone with a bright idea. Well I'm going to make coffee
> > and try to not feel too disappointed about all that soldering I'm
> > missing out on, now I have a 30cm extension cable ordered.
> >
> > *Goes off grumbling to himself*
> >
> > Thanks Brian! ;-)
>
> Someone else said splice you didn't, but in this same conversation, so I
> just addressed it all in one post.
>
> Are you *sure* you don't want to perform 80 solder and heat-shrink
> splices? It can be very zen. :)
>
> --
> bkw
>
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 5:34 am Brian White,  > > wrote:
> >
> > It's easier than that. If you take pretty much any idc connector and
> > put it back to back or hed yo head with another, the end result is
> > the "twist" where pin 1 switches places with pin 40, pin 2 switches
> > places with pin 39, etc.
> >
> > What I mean by "any idc" is, for instance, a wire-to-board back to
> > back with a male pin header. That makes a Model 102 or 200 cable.
> >
> >
> http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable#Cable_supporting_models_102_and_200_only
> >
> > Another form of the same thing is if you put 2 male pin headers back
> > to back, that makes an adapter that can serve as the the twisty part
> > on a cable set that works on all 3 models.
> >
> > http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable
> >
> > Or head to head: Mike Stein showed me (well everyone) that if you
> > just take any standard 40 pin cables and butt two female ends face
> > to face with a "gender changer" pin header, that results in the same
> > twist.
> >
> > That page above has links to buy all the odd parts for the different
> > ways to do it.
> >
> > But for a pcb to do the switcheroo, the pcb is nothing more than 40
> > straight lines just to make it easier to solder two plugs back to
> > back. See the "twist adapter" link in that page.
> >
> > You don't have to splice anything to make the cable longer. Just buy
> > or make a bog-standard 40 pin male-female extension cable, and stick
> > it on the DVI end of the cable. They are readily available pre-made
> > and cheap these days in the form of "gpio" cables for arduino or
> > raspberry pi.
> >
> > You can search "male female gpio" or similar on ebay or just pick a
> > length here:
> >
> > http://www.cablesonline.com/240pinidedir.html
> >
> > --
> > bkw
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:33 PM RETRO Innovations
> > mailto:go4re...@go4retro.com>> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/12/2020 4:17 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hi Jim,
> >> I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard'
> >> 40-pin DIP headers have been impossible to find; maybe with
> >> your resources you can find some somewhere so they can just
> >> simply be crimped on.
> >
> > I'm wondering if the switch could be made at the other end, with
> > a small PCB and the respective female header attached to it...
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> bkw
>

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Brian K. White]

On 3/13/20 5:15 AM, James Zeun wrote:
Well of course I knew I could buy a £4 cable and save myself half an 
hour soldering 40 wires, well 80! What do you take me for some sort of 
idiot? *Cough* :-P


There's always someone with a bright idea. Well I'm going to make coffee 
and try to not feel too disappointed about all that soldering I'm 
missing out on, now I have a 30cm extension cable ordered.


*Goes off grumbling to himself*

Thanks Brian! ;-)


Someone else said splice you didn't, but in this same conversation, so I 
just addressed it all in one post.


Are you *sure* you don't want to perform 80 solder and heat-shrink 
splices? It can be very zen. :)


--
bkw

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 5:34 am Brian White, > wrote:


It's easier than that. If you take pretty much any idc connector and
put it back to back or hed yo head with another, the end result is
the "twist" where pin 1 switches places with pin 40, pin 2 switches
places with pin 39, etc.

What I mean by "any idc" is, for instance, a wire-to-board back to
back with a male pin header. That makes a Model 102 or 200 cable.


http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable#Cable_supporting_models_102_and_200_only

Another form of the same thing is if you put 2 male pin headers back
to back, that makes an adapter that can serve as the the twisty part
on a cable set that works on all 3 models.

http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable

Or head to head: Mike Stein showed me (well everyone) that if you
just take any standard 40 pin cables and butt two female ends face
to face with a "gender changer" pin header, that results in the same
twist.

That page above has links to buy all the odd parts for the different
ways to do it.

But for a pcb to do the switcheroo, the pcb is nothing more than 40
straight lines just to make it easier to solder two plugs back to
back. See the "twist adapter" link in that page.

You don't have to splice anything to make the cable longer. Just buy
or make a bog-standard 40 pin male-female extension cable, and stick
it on the DVI end of the cable. They are readily available pre-made
and cheap these days in the form of "gpio" cables for arduino or
raspberry pi.

You can search "male female gpio" or similar on ebay or just pick a
length here:

http://www.cablesonline.com/240pinidedir.html

-- 
bkw


On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:33 PM RETRO Innovations
mailto:go4re...@go4retro.com>> wrote:

On 3/12/2020 4:17 PM, Mike Stein wrote:


Hi Jim,
I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard'
40-pin DIP headers have been impossible to find; maybe with
your resources you can find some somewhere so they can just
simply be crimped on.


I'm wondering if the switch could be made at the other end, with
a small PCB and the respective female header attached to it...





--
bkw

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Jim Anderson]

> -Original Message-
> 
> I'm displaying the DVI through RF or UHF if you prefer and the picture
> while a little fuzzy is perfectly acceptable given the age. I've not
> actually look in to the DVI's other video output option, which I think
> was intended for Tandy branded monitors. 

The video monitor output produces an NTSC compatible composite video signal, so 
it could be fed into any TV which accepts NTSC composite (usually a yellow RCA 
jack).  The RF output is just taking the monitor output signal and modulating 
it to the broadcast TV frequency for US channel 3 or 4 (based on the setting of 
the switch).

> Random question does the DVI save data to floppy disk in the same format
> as the TPDD?

Sorry, it does not.  (Even if you installed a 3.5" disk drive in the DVI.)







jim

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[James Zeun]

Well of course I knew I could buy a £4 cable and save myself half an hour
soldering 40 wires, well 80! What do you take me for some sort of idiot?
*Cough* :-P

There's always someone with a bright idea. Well I'm going to make coffee
and try to not feel too disappointed about all that soldering I'm missing
out on, now I have a 30cm extension cable ordered.

*Goes off grumbling to himself*

Thanks Brian! ;-)






On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, 5:34 am Brian White,  wrote:

> It's easier than that. If you take pretty much any idc connector and put
> it back to back or hed yo head with another, the end result is the "twist"
> where pin 1 switches places with pin 40, pin 2 switches places with pin 39,
> etc.
>
> What I mean by "any idc" is, for instance, a wire-to-board back to back
> with a male pin header. That makes a Model 102 or 200 cable.
>
>
> http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable#Cable_supporting_models_102_and_200_only
>
> Another form of the same thing is if you put 2 male pin headers back to
> back, that makes an adapter that can serve as the the twisty part on a
> cable set that works on all 3 models.
>
> http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable
>
> Or head to head: Mike Stein showed me (well everyone) that if you just
> take any standard 40 pin cables and butt two female ends face to face with
> a "gender changer" pin header, that results in the same twist.
>
> That page above has links to buy all the odd parts for the different ways
> to do it.
>
> But for a pcb to do the switcheroo, the pcb is nothing more than 40
> straight lines just to make it easier to solder two plugs back to back. See
> the "twist adapter" link in that page.
>
> You don't have to splice anything to make the cable longer. Just buy or
> make a bog-standard 40 pin male-female extension cable, and stick it on the
> DVI end of the cable. They are readily available pre-made and cheap these
> days in the form of "gpio" cables for arduino or raspberry pi.
>
> You can search "male female gpio" or similar on ebay or just pick a length
> here:
>
> http://www.cablesonline.com/240pinidedir.html
>
> --
> bkw
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:33 PM RETRO Innovations 
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/12/2020 4:17 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard' 40-pin DIP
>> headers have been impossible to find; maybe with your resources you can
>> find some somewhere so they can just simply be crimped on.
>>
>>
>> I'm wondering if the switch could be made at the other end, with a small
>> PCB and the respective female header attached to it...
>>
>>

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Brian White]

It's easier than that. If you take pretty much any idc connector and put it
back to back or hed yo head with another, the end result is the "twist"
where pin 1 switches places with pin 40, pin 2 switches places with pin 39,
etc.

What I mean by "any idc" is, for instance, a wire-to-board back to back
with a male pin header. That makes a Model 102 or 200 cable.

http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable#Cable_supporting_models_102_and_200_only

Another form of the same thing is if you put 2 male pin headers back to
back, that makes an adapter that can serve as the the twisty part on a
cable set that works on all 3 models.

http://tandy.wiki/Disk/Video_Interface:_Cable

Or head to head: Mike Stein showed me (well everyone) that if you just take
any standard 40 pin cables and butt two female ends face to face with a
"gender changer" pin header, that results in the same twist.

That page above has links to buy all the odd parts for the different ways
to do it.

But for a pcb to do the switcheroo, the pcb is nothing more than 40
straight lines just to make it easier to solder two plugs back to back. See
the "twist adapter" link in that page.

You don't have to splice anything to make the cable longer. Just buy or
make a bog-standard 40 pin male-female extension cable, and stick it on the
DVI end of the cable. They are readily available pre-made and cheap these
days in the form of "gpio" cables for arduino or raspberry pi.

You can search "male female gpio" or similar on ebay or just pick a length
here:

http://www.cablesonline.com/240pinidedir.html

-- 
bkw

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:33 PM RETRO Innovations 
wrote:

> On 3/12/2020 4:17 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
>
> 
> Hi Jim,
>
> I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard' 40-pin DIP
> headers have been impossible to find; maybe with your resources you can
> find some somewhere so they can just simply be crimped on.
>
>
> I'm wondering if the switch could be made at the other end, with a small
> PCB and the respective female header attached to it...
>
>

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Mike Stein]

If the correct DIP plug really can't be found there is my kludge of adding an 
F-F piece of cable connected with an M-M dual header to reverse the pinout; 
there's also a simple pcb on Oshpark to do the same thing, but neater:

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/EoeBHp2k

m
  - Original Message - 
  From: RETRO Innovations 
  To: m100@lists.bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 5:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [M100] DVI cable length


  On 3/12/2020 4:17 PM, Mike Stein wrote:

 
Hi Jim, 

I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard' 40-pin DIP 
headers have been impossible to find; maybe with your resources you can find 
some somewhere so they can just simply be crimped on.

  I'm wondering if the switch could be made at the other end, with a small PCB 
and the respective female header attached to it...

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[RETRO Innovations]

On 3/12/2020 4:17 PM, Mike Stein wrote:


Hi Jim,
I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard' 40-pin 
DIP headers have been impossible to find; maybe with your resources 
you can find some somewhere so they can just simply be crimped on.


I'm wondering if the switch could be made at the other end, with a small 
PCB and the respective female header attached to it...

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Mike Stein]

Hi Jim, 

I wouldn't call it a newbie mistake ;-) Those 'non-standard' 40-pin DIP headers 
have been impossible to find; maybe with your resources you can find some 
somewhere so they can just simply be crimped on.

I did find the original mfg. at one point but they didn't know anything about 
it.

Nice to see you at WoC last year, BTW; glad you could make it.

m


  - Original Message - 
  From: RETRO Innovations 
  To: m100@lists.bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 3:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [M100] DVI cable length


  On 3/12/2020 12:08 PM, James Zeun wrote:

The home made cable that came with the DVI kept dropping connection, as I 
have a replacement I don't feel so bad about experimenting with it. 

  I'm to blame, and I thought I should note it before someone else gets caught

  I have a TANDY cable, and 2 DVIs (package buy, as I recall).  I know how 
useless the DVI is without a cable, so I took a spot of IDE cable and purchased 
a 40 pin IDC header on Digikey to make up a second cable, test it, and then 
sell the unit.

  Notes:

a.. Stupid issue.  Forgot about the key in some IDE cables.  Not all have 
the key, the spare I selected had one.  No major issue, a bit of drill action 
and that's done (the cable has the connector in that spot, just covered with 
plastic) 
b.. More nuanced issue.  The headers from Digikey have the first wire going 
to pin 1, second to pin 40, etc.  But, as I recall, the Model 100 needs the 
first wire to to go to pin 40, then 1, then 39, etc. (might be backwards on the 
numbering, but hopefully the text illustrates the mirroring).  Anyway, I had to 
pull the unit apart, cut the cable into 2 strand sections, twist them, and then 
re-assemble.  

  I assume I made a newbie mistake on the header I needed to buy, but maybe 
this helps the next person wanting to construct a cable (or cable-like item)

  Jim





-- 
RETRO Innovations, Contemporary Gear for Classic Systems
www.go4retro.com
store.go4retro.com

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[James Zeun]

Jim the header you used to connect to the underside of the M100 is pretty
darn sturdy, I'm not sure why it was acting up. Best guess it a loose wire
some where or something like that, I'll check it out with my meter when I
get started on this.
Still I'm going to re-purpose it and try make a new, extended super DVI
cable, which will hopefully allow me to use the DVI the way I want to.

For those who might like to know, thus far using the US DVI here in the UK
has been a breeze. I'm using a step down brick for now, with a new PSU on
the way. See link to new dual output PSU
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32981279958.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.72964c4deypKfb

Hopefully when this arrives, it will be (fingers firmly crossed) an easy
job of swapping out the old US power supply with the new one and thus
eliminating the need for the step down brick.
I'm displaying the DVI through RF or UHF if you prefer and the picture
while a little fuzzy is perfectly acceptable given the age. I've not
actually look in to the DVI's other video output option, which I think was
intended for Tandy branded monitors. I'm slowly figuring out a method for
using the unit for writing, while being able to get the created document on
to my NADSbox. I use the M100 for creative writing and also doing articles
for my blog, so one way or the other the document needs to end up on SD
card.

Random question does the DVI save data to floppy disk in the same format as
the TPDD?



On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 19:21, RETRO Innovations 
wrote:

> On 3/12/2020 12:08 PM, James Zeun wrote:
>
> The home made cable that came with the DVI kept dropping connection, as I
> have a replacement I don't feel so bad about experimenting with it.
>
> I'm to blame, and I thought I should note it before someone else gets
> caught
>
> I have a TANDY cable, and 2 DVIs (package buy, as I recall).  I know how
> useless the DVI is without a cable, so I took a spot of IDE cable and
> purchased a 40 pin IDC header on Digikey to make up a second cable, test
> it, and then sell the unit.
>
> Notes:
>
>- Stupid issue.  Forgot about the key in some IDE cables.  Not all
>have the key, the spare I selected had one.  No major issue, a bit of drill
>action and that's done (the cable has the connector in that spot, just
>covered with plastic)
>- More nuanced issue.  The headers from Digikey have the first wire
>going to pin 1, second to pin 40, etc.  But, as I recall, the Model 100
>needs the first wire to to go to pin 40, then 1, then 39, etc. (might be
>backwards on the numbering, but hopefully the text illustrates the
>mirroring).  Anyway, I had to pull the unit apart, cut the cable into 2
>strand sections, twist them, and then re-assemble.
>
> I assume I made a newbie mistake on the header I needed to buy, but maybe
> this helps the next person wanting to construct a cable (or cable-like item)
>
> Jim
>
>
> --
> RETRO Innovations, Contemporary Gear for Classic 
> Systemswww.go4retro.comstore.go4retro.com
>
>

-- 
My retro tech blog and general ramblings
http://bytemyvdu.wordpress.com/

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[RETRO Innovations]

On 3/12/2020 12:08 PM, James Zeun wrote:
The home made cable that came with the DVI kept dropping connection, 
as I have a replacement I don't feel so bad about experimenting with it.


I'm to blame, and I thought I should note it before someone else gets caught

I have a TANDY cable, and 2 DVIs (package buy, as I recall).  I know how 
useless the DVI is without a cable, so I took a spot of IDE cable and 
purchased a 40 pin IDC header on Digikey to make up a second cable, test 
it, and then sell the unit.


Notes:

 * Stupid issue.  Forgot about the key in some IDE cables.  Not all
   have the key, the spare I selected had one.  No major issue, a bit
   of drill action and that's done (the cable has the connector in that
   spot, just covered with plastic)
 * More nuanced issue.  The headers from Digikey have the first wire
   going to pin 1, second to pin 40, etc.  But, as I recall, the Model
   100 needs the first wire to to go to pin 40, then 1, then 39, etc.
   (might be backwards on the numbering, but hopefully the text
   illustrates the mirroring).  Anyway, I had to pull the unit apart,
   cut the cable into 2 strand sections, twist them, and then re-assemble.

I assume I made a newbie mistake on the header I needed to buy, but 
maybe this helps the next person wanting to construct a cable (or 
cable-like item)


Jim


--
RETRO Innovations, Contemporary Gear for Classic Systems
www.go4retro.com
store.go4retro.com

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Mike Stein]

No, my two foot cable is not shielded; as I said, I think the shielding on the 
original cables is more to satisfy the FCC about RFI than signal integrity.

It's never a good idea to splice a cable if you can avoid it, but I think if 
you're careful you'll probably get away with it.

m
  - Original Message - 
  From: James Zeun 
  To: m...@bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [M100] DVI cable length


  Hi everyone


  I thought I'd reply to this one and reply to MikeS at the same time.


  Again sorry for the double post, I was tired and using my phone, always a bad 
combination.


  So MikeS has a 2ft long cable, I'm not sure if this is shielded or not. Mike 
can you let us know?


  Brian, yes my cable did come from Arcadeshopper, it's a lovely cable, though 
I'll be honest I'm not sure how much I trust myself before bending a pin on 
that connector :-P


  The home made cable that came with the DVI kept dropping connection, as I 
have a replacement I don't feel so bad about experimenting with it. My plan was 
to chop the IDC connector off the end and solder a new length of cable to it. 
MikeS has set the bar with his 2 foot long cable, mine shouldn't be that long 
but it will have a join in it and my experience is that where ever you solder 
two wires together, you get a drop. Whether it is enough to upset communication 
between computer and DVI is something I guess I'm going to find out.




  On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 16:46, Mike Stein  wrote:

The original genuine cables *were* (partially) shielded, although probably 
more for RFI prevention than signal integrity:


  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian White 
  To: m...@bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [M100] DVI cable length


  I saw the post, I just didn't know an answer better than "easy enough to 
just try it" which is not all that helpful, but I guess at least then you would 
have known your post posted. 


  Although part of the cable has special wiring and connectors, once you 
have a proper cable, it doesn't require anything special to add an extension to 
the DVI end of it.


  I'm actually already amazed that a raw system bus going out over an 
unshielded ribbon cable works at all, but I guess the DVI came enough years 
after the Model 1 expansion interface debacle that they learned how to do that 
better. ;)


  If you got a new cable from Arcade Shopper I probably built it.


  I haven't tried any long runs or done any reliability testing to find the 
longest run that not merely appears to work, but is definitely safe from 
corruption. You don't want data you can't trust, and I don't know, and wouldn't 
want to rely on, how much fancy error detection and correction is going on at 
low levels. Like does every block written or read from the disk come along with 
a checksum? Until I knew that, I would want that bus to be as clean as possible.

  -- 

  bkw


  On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 11:04 AM James Zeun  wrote:



Hey everyone 


Think I might have messed up messaging the list last night, so I'm 
sending my post again. My apologies if it did go through.


Just a quick question, how long can a DVI link cable be? My new cable 
arrived today and while it's longer than what I had, I could still do with it 
being 20-30cm longer. I have the DVI sitting at an angle to the left of me on 
the desk, with my TV/Monitor flatscreen sitting on top of it. Using the new 
cable, it seems the intended way to use the DVI is with the M100 sat directly 
in front of it. However that isn't really comfortable nor practical with my 
setup, neither do I really want the monitor directly facing me. I regularly 
clear the center of my desk for soldering which is why the monitor sits in the 
corner out the way. 


I did get a home made cable with my DVI and while it is rather short 
(25cm), I'm wondering if I couldn't extending it another 30cm so the M100 can 
sit in front of me and the DVI to the side. 
  

As always any and all input is welcome, I'm probably going to give it a 
shot either way. I just thought I'd see if anyone new if there was a limit 
before signal loss is to much.


Cheers
James
-- 

My retro tech blog and general ramblings
http://bytemyvdu.wordpress.com/





  -- 

  My retro tech blog and general ramblings
  http://bytemyvdu.wordpress.com/

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[James Zeun]

Hi everyone

I thought I'd reply to this one and reply to MikeS at the same time.

Again sorry for the double post, I was tired and using my phone, always a
bad combination.

So MikeS has a 2ft long cable, I'm not sure if this is shielded or not.
Mike can you let us know?

Brian, yes my cable did come from Arcadeshopper, it's a lovely cable,
though I'll be honest I'm not sure how much I trust myself before bending a
pin on that connector :-P

The home made cable that came with the DVI kept dropping connection, as I
have a replacement I don't feel so bad about experimenting with it. My plan
was to chop the IDC connector off the end and solder a new length of cable
to it. MikeS has set the bar with his 2 foot long cable, mine shouldn't be
that long but it will have a join in it and my experience is that where
ever you solder two wires together, you get a drop. Whether it is enough to
upset communication between computer and DVI is something I guess I'm going
to find out.


On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 16:46, Mike Stein  wrote:

> The original genuine cables *were* (partially) shielded, although probably
> more for RFI prevention than signal integrity:
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Brian White 
> *To:* m...@bitchin100.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:01 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [M100] DVI cable length
>
> I saw the post, I just didn't know an answer better than "easy enough to
> just try it" which is not all that helpful, but I guess at least then you
> would have known your post posted.
>
> Although part of the cable has special wiring and connectors, once you
> have a proper cable, it doesn't require anything special to add an
> extension to the DVI end of it.
>
> I'm actually already amazed that a raw system bus going out over an
> unshielded ribbon cable works at all, but I guess the DVI came enough years
> after the Model 1 expansion interface debacle that they learned how to do
> that better. ;)
>
> If you got a new cable from Arcade Shopper I probably built it.
>
> I haven't tried any long runs or done any reliability testing to find the
> longest run that not merely appears to work, but is definitely safe from
> corruption. You don't want data you can't trust, and I don't know, and
> wouldn't want to rely on, how much fancy error detection and correction is
> going on at low levels. Like does every block written or read from the disk
> come along with a checksum? Until I knew that, I would want that bus to be
> as clean as possible.
>
> --
> bkw
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 11:04 AM James Zeun  wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey everyone
>>
>> Think I might have messed up messaging the list last night, so I'm
>> sending my post again. My apologies if it did go through.
>>
>> Just a quick question, how long can a DVI link cable be? My new cable
>> arrived today and while it's longer than what I had, I could still do with
>> it being 20-30cm longer. I have the DVI sitting at an angle to the left of
>> me on the desk, with my TV/Monitor flatscreen sitting on top of it. Using
>> the new cable, it seems the intended way to use the DVI is with the M100
>> sat directly in front of it. However that isn't really comfortable nor
>> practical with my setup, neither do I really want the monitor directly
>> facing me. I regularly clear the center of my desk for soldering which is
>> why the monitor sits in the corner out the way.
>>
>> I did get a home made cable with my DVI and while it is rather short
>> (25cm), I'm wondering if I couldn't extending it another 30cm so the M100
>> can sit in front of me and the DVI to the side.
>>
>> As always any and all input is welcome, I'm probably going to give it a
>> shot either way. I just thought I'd see if anyone new if there was a limit
>> before signal loss is to much.
>>
>> Cheers
>> James
>> --
>> My retro tech blog and general ramblings
>> http://bytemyvdu.wordpress.com/
>>
>

-- 
My retro tech blog and general ramblings
http://bytemyvdu.wordpress.com/

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Mike Stein]

The original genuine cables *were* (partially) shielded, although probably more 
for RFI prevention than signal integrity:


  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian White 
  To: m...@bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 12:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [M100] DVI cable length


  I saw the post, I just didn't know an answer better than "easy enough to just 
try it" which is not all that helpful, but I guess at least then you would have 
known your post posted.


  Although part of the cable has special wiring and connectors, once you have a 
proper cable, it doesn't require anything special to add an extension to the 
DVI end of it.


  I'm actually already amazed that a raw system bus going out over an 
unshielded ribbon cable works at all, but I guess the DVI came enough years 
after the Model 1 expansion interface debacle that they learned how to do that 
better. ;)


  If you got a new cable from Arcade Shopper I probably built it.


  I haven't tried any long runs or done any reliability testing to find the 
longest run that not merely appears to work, but is definitely safe from 
corruption. You don't want data you can't trust, and I don't know, and wouldn't 
want to rely on, how much fancy error detection and correction is going on at 
low levels. Like does every block written or read from the disk come along with 
a checksum? Until I knew that, I would want that bus to be as clean as possible.

  -- 

  bkw


  On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 11:04 AM James Zeun  wrote:



Hey everyone


Think I might have messed up messaging the list last night, so I'm sending 
my post again. My apologies if it did go through.


Just a quick question, how long can a DVI link cable be? My new cable 
arrived today and while it's longer than what I had, I could still do with it 
being 20-30cm longer. I have the DVI sitting at an angle to the left of me on 
the desk, with my TV/Monitor flatscreen sitting on top of it. Using the new 
cable, it seems the intended way to use the DVI is with the M100 sat directly 
in front of it. However that isn't really comfortable nor practical with my 
setup, neither do I really want the monitor directly facing me. I regularly 
clear the center of my desk for soldering which is why the monitor sits in the 
corner out the way. 


I did get a home made cable with my DVI and while it is rather short 
(25cm), I'm wondering if I couldn't extending it another 30cm so the M100 can 
sit in front of me and the DVI to the side. 
  

As always any and all input is welcome, I'm probably going to give it a 
shot either way. I just thought I'd see if anyone new if there was a limit 
before signal loss is to much.


Cheers
James
-- 

My retro tech blog and general ramblings
http://bytemyvdu.wordpress.com/

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[MikeS]

Mine's 2 feet long, no problems.

You can't see the DVI in this pic but it's off to the left:


  - Original Message - 
  From: James Zeun 
  To: m...@bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 7:11 PM
  Subject: [M100] DVI cable length


  Hey everyone


  Just a quick question, how long can a DVI link cable be? My new cable arrived 
today and while it's longer than what I had, I could still do with it being 
20-30cm longer.

Re: [M100] DVI cable length

[Brian White]

I saw the post, I just didn't know an answer better than "easy enough to
just try it" which is not all that helpful, but I guess at least then you
would have known your post posted.

Although part of the cable has special wiring and connectors, once you have
a proper cable, it doesn't require anything special to add an extension to
the DVI end of it.

I'm actually already amazed that a raw system bus going out over an
unshielded ribbon cable works at all, but I guess the DVI came enough years
after the Model 1 expansion interface debacle that they learned how to do
that better. ;)

If you got a new cable from Arcade Shopper I probably built it.

I haven't tried any long runs or done any reliability testing to find the
longest run that not merely appears to work, but is definitely safe from
corruption. You don't want data you can't trust, and I don't know, and
wouldn't want to rely on, how much fancy error detection and correction is
going on at low levels. Like does every block written or read from the disk
come along with a checksum? Until I knew that, I would want that bus to be
as clean as possible.

-- 
bkw

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 11:04 AM James Zeun  wrote:

>
> Hey everyone
>
> Think I might have messed up messaging the list last night, so I'm sending
> my post again. My apologies if it did go through.
>
> Just a quick question, how long can a DVI link cable be? My new cable
> arrived today and while it's longer than what I had, I could still do with
> it being 20-30cm longer. I have the DVI sitting at an angle to the left of
> me on the desk, with my TV/Monitor flatscreen sitting on top of it. Using
> the new cable, it seems the intended way to use the DVI is with the M100
> sat directly in front of it. However that isn't really comfortable nor
> practical with my setup, neither do I really want the monitor directly
> facing me. I regularly clear the center of my desk for soldering which is
> why the monitor sits in the corner out the way.
>
> I did get a home made cable with my DVI and while it is rather short
> (25cm), I'm wondering if I couldn't extending it another 30cm so the M100
> can sit in front of me and the DVI to the side.
>
> As always any and all input is welcome, I'm probably going to give it a
> shot either way. I just thought I'd see if anyone new if there was a limit
> before signal loss is to much.
>
> Cheers
> James
> --
> My retro tech blog and general ramblings
> http://bytemyvdu.wordpress.com/
>