Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[drieux]

On Mar 3, 2005, at 1:48 AM, Andy Holyer wrote:
[..]
Personally, because I learned Emacs in 1986,
so the control keys are hard-coded in my brain :-)
[..]
Given that ted, you don't mind me calling you ted,
had asked about coding in perl - and on an OSX box,
then the obvious first choice is BBedit. They have
done a lovely job of being Darwin Aware and Perl Friendly.
When I am not on my darwin box, I use 'vi'.
I will confess that learning emacs to use on 1200 baud
modems was just all the rage in the 80's - but then we
got real networked computers. So basically I 'vi' on
the other boxes only when I can use NFS/SMB to mount
the directory onto my Darwin Box.
And not meaning to pick on you Andy, but of course
one has to, where ever do you hide the extra digits
required to do Emac's in it's Native Mode where one
only needs to do a chord combo of some n-gagillion keys.
Most of the Terran's I have meet have problems with that.
cf:

ciao
drieux
---
Fun is having the CTO decide that we need to shift
to 17" Powerbooks so we can run BBedit for creating code.

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Ian" == Ian Ragsdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Ian> "Keep" pushing free?

Sorry, the collective "you". :)

Ian>   I'd guess that
Ian> anybody who learned vi or emacs after 2000 wouldn't suggest it.  I
Ian> personally learned it in '94 and still don't feel that productive in
Ian> it.

What happens if I s/vi or emacs/perl/ to that sentence?

Makes just about as much non-sense.

I spend about half my day typing into an editor.  If it wasn't for all
the power of Emacs, I'd be lost by now.

I suppose if you edit for only 15 minutes a day, you could afford
to learn only as much as a GUI editor will let you do. :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Joseph Alotta]

I think there is a version of TSO that runs in unix, and on Windoze.
This is for the very strong only.
Joe.
On Mar 3, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Charlie Root wrote:

On Mar 02, 2005, at 17:15, John Delacour wrote:
At 9:45 pm + 2/3/05, Phil Dobbin wrote:
I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is 
not the best idea...
I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
would use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. 
I can imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and 
either a nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but 
maybe that's because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)


Easy.  You're ssh'ed into a box.  Emacs makes the ONLY sense.  (OK I 
suppose you could use pico or that one that starts with the letter 
after U.
--
Lou Moran
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ellem.is-a-geek.org:5280/
http://homepage.mac.com/ellem52/

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Charlie Root]

On Mar 02, 2005, at 17:15, John Delacour wrote:
At 9:45 pm + 2/3/05, Phil Dobbin wrote:
I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is 
not the best idea...
I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
would use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. 
I can imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and 
either a nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but 
maybe that's because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)


Easy.  You're ssh'ed into a box.  Emacs makes the ONLY sense.  (OK I 
suppose you could use pico or that one that starts with the letter 
after U.
--
Lou Moran
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ellem.is-a-geek.org:5280/
http://homepage.mac.com/ellem52/

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Walt Pawley]

Mostly just because no one else mentioned it, I rather like to use Mahon's
"ee" or "aee". Almost no learning curve but much superior to pico, IMHO. If
you must use a GUI version, and can tolerate X-windows, there's even an
"xee". I believe FreeBSD includes it as part of a nominal install. Rather wish
that OS-X did too.
-- 

Walter M. Pawley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Wump Research & Company
676 River Bend Road, Roseburg, OR 97470
 541-672-8975

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Pete Prodoehl]

The Ghost wrote:
I would urge all of you that have spoken so far to try out jEdit 
(http://jedit.org).

What kind of geek would I be if I ignored an editor thread? ;)
I also like jEdit, here are a few of the reasons:
* Open-source (free as in speech)
* Lots of nice plugins
* Very customizable
* Multi-platform (Java-based)
* Active & responsive developers
Out of the box many people are not wowed, but if you look under the 
hood, and really customized it to your needs, it can do a whole heck of 
a lot. Like many open-source apps, it may require an investment of time 
to get what you are after, but for me it was well worth it.

Pete

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Ian Ragsdale]

On Mar 3, 2005, at 7:04 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
"Ian" == Ian Ragsdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Ian> If you want to stay with something free, I'd suggest TextWrangler 
from
Ian> Bare Bones:

Ian> http://www.barebones.com/products/textwrangler/index.shtml
Ian> It has good syntax coloring, and integrates well with the 
command-line
Ian> perl - you can set a keyboard shortcut to run scripts & check 
their
Ian> syntax, and you can write filters and other scripts in perl.  
Pretty
Ian> sweet for a free product.

Again, if you keep pushing "free", I'm going to say "emacs". :)
Emacs has all that.  And more.
"Keep" pushing free?  I was the first response! :)  I like vi better 
than emacs personally, but mainly cause I know it a lot better.  For 
someone on OS X, that wishes to use a GUI (which was my assumption), 
would you really suggest they spend the time learning emacs or vi?  My 
guess is that most people who suggest such things don't realize how 
long they spent learning how to be productive in it.  I'd guess that 
anybody who learned vi or emacs after 2000 wouldn't suggest it.  I 
personally learned it in '94 and still don't feel that productive in 
it.

Ian

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Wiggins d'Anconia]

Phil Dobbin wrote:
On 02/03/2005 @ 22:25 GMT, Wiggins d'Anconia, [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

John Delacour wrote:

I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
would 
use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. I can 
imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and either a 
nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but maybe that's 
because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)

They aren't free (well BBedit and Affrus), they aren't cross platform 
(why learn a different editor for each platform), and they require lots 
of clicky.

I have never logged into a system where I couldn't use vi. (well maybe a 
windows box, but it didn't take long to install gvim or cygwin.)

In the case in point though he's using OS X so why not use the best tools for 
the platform you're on? If one day he gets stuck on Atari he'll have to learn 
vim/emacs/whatever.
Convince me they are the best tools. I gave you two other reasons why 
they aren't as good. On top of the fact that it is cross platform.

No point suffering til then :-)
I'm not suffering in vim, I would be in those others.
Cheers,
Regards,
Phil.
--
Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day
Show a man grep and you'll never see him again

Give a man a fish, and he will grill it and drink a beer.
Teach a man to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day long.
http://danconia.org

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Ian" == Ian Ragsdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Ian> If you want to stay with something free, I'd suggest TextWrangler from
Ian> Bare Bones:

Ian> http://www.barebones.com/products/textwrangler/index.shtml

Ian> It has good syntax coloring, and integrates well with the command-line
Ian> perl - you can set a keyboard shortcut to run scripts & check their
Ian> syntax, and you can write filters and other scripts in perl.  Pretty
Ian> sweet for a free product.

Again, if you keep pushing "free", I'm going to say "emacs". :)
Emacs has all that.  And more.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Peter" == Peter N Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Peter> This has been mentioned a few times, but of course TextWrangler/BBEdit
Peter> both support Edit via FTP/SFTP, so presuming you are SSHing to your
Peter> target machine, then you can easily edit remote files with
Peter> TextWrangler/BBEdit.

And of course Emacs can do this as well.  For a very long time. :)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Andy Holyer]

On 2 Mar 2005, at 22:15, John Delacour wrote:
At 9:45 pm + 2/3/05, Phil Dobbin wrote:
I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is 
not the best idea...
I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
would use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. 
I can imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and 
either a nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but 
maybe that's because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)

Personally, because I learned Emacs in 1986, so the control keys are 
hard-coded in my brain :-)

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Matthew Langford]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, John Delacour wrote:

> Both TextWrangler and BBEdit, which for Perl purposes are virtually
> identical (it's the html stuff that's missing in TW) are configurable
> to the nth degree as regards keystrokes and can be customised, I am
> sure, to emulate the behaviour of vim or whatever as regards
> keystrokes.  Any key combination can be used to perform any operation
> within the document, the application or beyond.  Pods can be
> displayed for selected terms of module names at a single keystroke
> etc. etc.  The most involved sequences of tasks can be performed with
> a single keystroke. In a short time a user can set up the application
> to respond as he chooses to commands that he chooses, which might be
> vim-like or might not.

 I should let this thread die a natural death, but...this post
illustrates the silliness to which editor wars always stray.

First, a response to the "anything vi can do, BBEdit can do better": I
suspect the hardest commands to replicate would be the simplest:  move the
cursor to the next word, line, block, or backwards, move to end of line or
paragraph, etc.  Even things that can be sort of replicated, like a
search-and-replace sequence over the next 10 lines, would require a bunch
of extra tabs to move from dialog field to dialog field, even assuming the
entire search-and-replace dialog can be navigated mouseless (I don't know
or care).  Making the process as quick as vi (assuming a skilled operator
of vi) would likely be impossible.  For you, no doubt BBEdit is quicker,
which explains why you might prefer it.

But, even if you could make BBEdit look like vi, why?  If I love vi so
much, would I buy a commercial program and spend hours (it would take it)
configuring it to look like another program I could have for free and
without the work?

Furthermore, let's say I ssh into some remote box and want to edit some
quick Perl or shell script or config file on the remote box.  I'm back to
using vi.  Yes, in some cases I could run X or VNC or RemoteDesktop or
some other remote GUI tool, but it's often overkill, like hopping in your
SUV and driving twenty feet to your mailbox to check the mail.

I own BBEdit and love it.  For me personally, I prefer editing code with a
mouse-based editor, and I don't feel the need for editor consistency.  But
for some tasks, you can do it in vi before BBEdit could even launch, even
if it were an option.  And I've seen people with greater skills in vi, for
whom it is the best choice in many more situations.

Bottom line:  people have their preferences, and their preferences may
actually make sense (ie be optimal) for their circumstances and usage.
If you are annoyed with your current editor, check out some of the editors
mentioned.   Let's get back to Perl and MacOS X.  



--
MattLangford

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Chris Nandor]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter N Lewis) wrote:

> >Some friends have recommended vim and emacs to me. And one of the 
> >reasons is he can remotely edit a text file very easily.
> 
> This has been mentioned a few times, but of course 
> TextWrangler/BBEdit both support Edit via FTP/SFTP, so presuming you 
> are SSHing to your target machine, then you can easily edit remote 
> files with TextWrangler/BBEdit.
> 
> For example, on the target machine while logged in via ssh, you can do this:
> 
> ssh [EMAIL PROTECTED] bbedit sftp://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/perl/Peter/Tools.pm

I should here plug cenotaph.  It's something Matthias Neeracher wrote, and 
then I ported it to Mac OS X.

It's a client-server.  The server, cenotaph, runs on your local Mac, and the 
client, ceno, runs on the remote boxes you're using as your editor.  So you 
type:

   ceno somefile

on the remote box, and somefile pops up on your local box, in your editor.  
When you're done editing it, cenotaph sends it back through the open 
connection to the client, where it is then saved.

Any editor works, in theory: cenotaph will execute the editor and wait for 
it to return, so it pretty much requires an editor that runs in your GUI.  
By default, it uses BBEdit (via '/usr/bin/bbedit -w').

It's a useful tool to have, especially when you can't get direct scp/sftp 
access to a machine (such as in my work environment, where I have to go 
through a gateway first to get to any of the other machines, so I either use 
a remote command line editor, or this).

There's no security, because I've never needed it and no one else seems to 
be using this and therefore no one really cares, but in theory if someone 
knew your IP address and that you were running cenotaph, they could open any 
number of files to your editor.  :-)

Anyway, it's on SourceForge.net if you care.

   http://sf.net/projects/pudge/

-- 
Chris Nandor  [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://pudge.net/
Open Source Technology Group   [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ostg.com/

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Joel Rees]

Apologies for fanning the fires, but this hits kind of close to home ...
On 2005.3.3, at 07:39 AM, David Cantrell wrote:
[...]
>  and either a
nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but maybe 
that's because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)
If you put non-ASCII in your code you're doing something wrong. 
Language-specific stuff - including English - belongs in a seperate 
resource file if you care about internationalisation.
Resources have to be edited with something, and it is often useful to 
be able to use REs on them.

Also, making systems and apps universal is trying to solve a problem 
that shouldn't be solved, even if the tools are useful. Even if the 
core engines of, say, a medical system can be universal, there are huge 
pieces of functionality that should _not_ be so. If you try to run a 
Japanese clinic the way an American hospital or clinic is run, you're 
not going to help very many patients. Likely to scare a number of them, 
in fact.

The guys that build the local stuff should work in their own language 
as much as possible, and that includes not just comments, but, if 
possible, identifiers, syntax, and grammar. Otherwise, they tend less 
to understand what they are doing and more to think it's all just a 
mathematical game. And they tend not to really understand re-factoring 
if it doesn't work on symbols in their own language.

Right now, comments are about all that can be dependably worked with in 
non-Latin characters, but even those, it's useful to have a full and 
accessible set of RE-type tools to work with.

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[John Delacour]

At 5:33 pm -0800 2/3/05, Aaron Priven wrote:
The one real advantage to vi-type editors compared to other editors 
is that they enable you to edit without taking your hands off the 
home keys.
Both TextWrangler and BBEdit, which for Perl purposes are virtually 
identical (it's the html stuff that's missing in TW) are configurable 
to the nth degree as regards keystrokes and can be customised, I am 
sure, to emulate the behaviour of vim or whatever as regards 
keystrokes.  Any key combination can be used to perform any operation 
within the document, the application or beyond.  Pods can be 
displayed for selected terms of module names at a single keystroke 
etc. etc.  The most involved sequences of tasks can be performed with 
a single keystroke. In a short time a user can set up the application 
to respond as he chooses to commands that he chooses, which might be 
vim-like or might not.

JD

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Joel Rees]

On 2005.3.3, at 07:15 AM, John Delacour wrote:
At 9:45 pm + 2/3/05, Phil Dobbin wrote:
I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is 
not the best idea...
I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
would use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. 
I can imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and 
either a nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but 
maybe that's because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)
Two points, or maybe three --
One, vim can be customized to handle mult-byte characters. Emacs, can, 
too, from what I hear. I'm personally not satisfied with the results, 
but it does "work", even if it's rather clumsy.

I have the impression that pico can also be customized, since there are 
a number of Japanese people who use it.

The other, vi is, as has been mentioned, almost always there, and it's 
much easier to use than ed.

Also, vi inherits a lot of powerful macro processing capabilities from 
ex/ed that are somewhat arcane, but still useable. If you're 
comfortable with vi and can keep track of the arcane syntax, it pretty 
much lets you do everything you can do in mpw.

I personally use whatever's handy, but when I edit the files under 
/etc, I usually don't really want to waste the time fiddling with 
permissions and such. And if I have to type the file path in by hand 
anyway, I might as well open up a terminal and use vi.

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Peter N Lewis]

Some friends have recommended vim and emacs to me. And one of the 
reasons is he can remotely edit a text file very easily.
This has been mentioned a few times, but of course 
TextWrangler/BBEdit both support Edit via FTP/SFTP, so presuming you 
are SSHing to your target machine, then you can easily edit remote 
files with TextWrangler/BBEdit.

For example, on the target machine while logged in via ssh, you can do this:
ssh [EMAIL PROTECTED] bbedit sftp://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/perl/Peter/Tools.pm
I'll leave as an exercise to the perl hacker as to how to have to set 
up[ an alias and script to do this by typing

rbbedit Tools.pm
Enjoy,
   Peter.
--
  

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[The Ghost]

I would urge all of you that have spoken so far to try out jEdit 
(http://jedit.org).

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Aaron Priven]

"vim" is "vi improved", a rewritten version of the original vi editor 
written many many years ago.

http://www.vim.org/about.php
The one real advantage to vi-type editors compared to other editors is 
that they enable you to edit without taking your hands off the home 
keys. They are, however, extremely difficult to learn. I have never 
recommended vi to anyone who wanted to learn a new editor from scratch. 
But for those of us who did learn vi back in ancient days and are 
comfortable with it, vim does have that advantage, and also advanced 
(to me) features like syntax coloring.

The only integrated development environment I ever used was the one in 
QuickBASIC, but even that was extremely useful. I haven't tried Affrus 
yet, but I am tempted. Even if I do have to use cursor keys.

I think it's probably a mistake to base a choice of tool on its 
availability in an environment you're not using. Perl is not just for 
professional programmers who expect to learn lots of different 
operating systems and work on them all. If someday one finds oneself 
programming seriously in some way on another system, one can learn the 
tools that are appropriate then - tools which may not even exist today.

On Mar 2, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Joseph Alotta wrote:
It seems to me, that vi and vim are very similiar.  I actually thought 
they
were the same.  What is the difference?
--
Aaron Priven, [EMAIL PROTECTED],com, http://www.priven.com/aaron

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Chris Devers]

[mangled quotation style revised :-) c.d.]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Joseph Alotta wrote:

> On Mar 2, 2005, at 5:20 PM, Ted Zeng wrote:
> 
> > I have downloaded TextWrangler and used it for a short while. It 
> > satisfies all my need right now. In fact, I feel it is better than 
> > the shareware I used to use for editing Perl scripts on Windows. 
> > TextWrangler is free from Bare Bone Software, which also sells 
> > BBEdit.

TextWrangler seems to be a very good editor, and if you grow out of it, 
BBEdit will be there waiting for you as a superset of TW. 

It's also worth taking a look at SubEthaEdit though, if only for the 
extremely clever & useful collaborative editing feature that allows 
multiple SEE users to work on the same document at the same time. 

The people working on the document can discover each other automatically 
if you're on the same local network, or you can connect to remote users 
over the internet if you have their address. As an example, I've used 
SEE to edit a shared document from home and at work at the same time 
(with help from VNC) or asynchronously (to work on the file at work, 
then pick up where I was when I get home).

This isn't a capbility I'm aware of in any other editor, on any 
platform, and it's pretty much the only thing that would ever make me 
want to switch away from usign Vim as my main text editor. If you're 
collaborating on documents with other OSX users, this can be a great way 
to assist that. At my job, we've got half a dozen OSX users that have 
switched away from BBEdit to SEE just so they can collaborate this way, 
and they've been really happy with for the past few months.

> It seems to me, that vi and vim are very similiar.  I actually thought 
> they were the same.  What is the difference?

Vi was a very early full-screen UNIX editor going back to the 70s or so. 
Vi today is basically the same program it wass 20 or more years ago.

Vim is "Vi IMproved", a completely new program that both implements all 
the functionality of classic Vi while extending it with lots of features 
that came along later with editors like Emacs: multiple levels of undo, 
command history in the ex subshell, etc. Plus, it includes an optional 
graphical mode that runs natively on X11, Windows, and OSX; it doesn't 
make Vim as simple to use as TextWrangler / BBEdit / SubEthaEdit / etc, 
but it's a lot more friendly than the original Vi ever was...
 

-- 
Chris Devers

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[John Delacour]

At 12:02 am + 3/3/05, David Cantrell wrote:
If it's for your convenience, that's fine.  If you want to 
contribute your code to someone elses project, or you want others to 
work with you on your project, then insisting that everyone else use 
your choice of encoding, which may not render at all on their 
hardware even if they were to jump through the appropriate settings 
hoops, is just plain rude.
At least I have never been offensive to an expectant mother whale :-) 
and the encoding I use, without exception, is the default encoding of 
the Perl language, so I have the honour to share my manners with 
Larry Wall and other very nice people a long way from England.

JD

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Joseph Alotta]

It seems to me, that vi and vim are very similiar.  I actually thought 
they
were the same.  What is the difference?

Joe.
On Mar 2, 2005, at 5:20 PM, Ted Zeng wrote:
Hi, all,
Thanks for all the replies. They are all very useful to me.
I have downloaded TextWrangler and used it for a short while. It 
satisfies all my need right now.
In fact, I feel it is better than the shareware I used to use for 
editing Perl scripts on Windows.
TextWrangler is free from Bare Bone Software, which also sells BBEdit.

I have learnt vi before. Than I used MPW shell. I never get really 
comfortable with vi.
But I can still edit a file when it is needed on a UNIX. But it is 
clumsy for me.

Some friends have recommended vim and emacs to me. And one of the 
reasons is he can
remotely edit a text file very easily. Maybe one day I will learn 
emacs or vim
as a challenge. One more thing that I feel uncomfortable with is 
X-window stuff.

ted zeng
Adobe Systems

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[David Cantrell]

John Delacour wrote:
At 10:39 pm + 2/3/05, David Cantrell wrote:
If you put non-ASCII in your code you're doing something wrong. 
Language-specific stuff - including English - belongs in a seperate 
resource file if you care about internationalisation.
Uhm, the Perl I use uses UTF-8 by default.  UTF-8 and Unicode have 
nothing at all to do with language, whatever you mean by that;
Fair point - I don't believe any language uses the SNOWMAN character 
that some moron thought should exist in a character set.

>and if
I'm using a text editor that allows me to include Chinese and Ancient 
Greek in a perl script, as I do, and have them displayed as such for my 
convenience I am doing nothing wrong at all, since the script is all in 
UTF-8.  I think you are talking of a different century.
If it's for your convenience, that's fine.  If you want to contribute 
your code to someone elses project, or you want others to work with you 
on your project, then insisting that everyone else use your choice of 
encoding, which may not render at all on their hardware even if they 
were to jump through the appropriate settings hoops, is just plain rude. 
 You also open yourself up to confusion between o and Î - on which 
subject, see recent security advisories.

--
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information
  emacs: for a brave GNU Word
 -- cdevers, in #london.pm

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Doug McNutt]

At 15:20 -0800 3/2/05, Ted Zeng wrote:
>Then I used MPW shell.

If you liked the MPW shell you should purchase the full BBEdit package. Their 
worksheets are the closest thing you can get, on OS neXt, to MPW with 
executable shell commands from within the worksheet.  Two differences are 
frustrating:  You can't redirect output to another open worksheet the way MPW 
did and environment variables set from one worksheet will not be recognized in 
another. But it beats running MPW in classic mode.

-- 

Applescript syntax is like English spelling:
Roughly, but not thoroughly, thought through.

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[John Fraser]

It also has a stationary feature, which enables you to create templates for
various Perl files you may create.  I have one for object oriented package
files, and one for regular Perl scripts - both complete with POD stuff.

Very nice.

Cheers,

John

> From: Ian Ragsdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:50:01 -0600
> To: OSX Group Perl 
> Subject: Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?
> 
> If you want to stay with something free, I'd suggest TextWrangler from
> Bare Bones:
> 
> http://www.barebones.com/products/textwrangler/index.shtml
> 
> It has good syntax coloring, and integrates well with the command-line
> perl - you can set a keyboard shortcut to run scripts & check their
> syntax, and you can write filters and other scripts in perl.  Pretty
> sweet for a free product.
> 
> Ian
> 
> On Mar 2, 2005, at 11:38 AM, Ted Zeng wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> Thanks for the help here. I am almost finishing my first tool on OS X.
>> 
>> I am using TextEdit as the editor. I sometime use Pico, but I am still
>> not comfortable with Unix editor. I know there must be some good
>> editors for Perl. Do you have any recommendation?
>> 
>> ted zeng
>> Adobe Systems
> 

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[John Delacour]

At 10:39 pm + 2/3/05, David Cantrell wrote:
If you put non-ASCII in your code you're doing something wrong. 
Language-specific stuff - including English - belongs in a seperate 
resource file if you care about internationalisation.
Uhm, the Perl I use uses UTF-8 by default.  UTF-8 and Unicode have 
nothing at all to do with language, whatever you mean by that; and if 
I'm using a text editor that allows me to include Chinese and Ancient 
Greek in a perl script, as I do, and have them displayed as such for 
my convenience I am doing nothing wrong at all, since the script is 
all in UTF-8.  I think you are talking of a different century.

JD

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Phil Dobbin]

On 02/03/2005 @ 23:10 GMT, David Cantrell, [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

>Phil Dobbin wrote:

[...]

>> If so it's kind of lame seeing as we know have alternatives that work
> > very well and more intuitively on their given platform (i.e. OS X)
>
>OS X is only one of many platforms I use.  This is the case for most 
>programmers whose opinions I respect.  I want my most important tool, 
>the one in which I write the code that earns me the money I need for 
>buying whisky, to work consistently everywhere that I work (OS X, 
>Linux/x86, Linux/Sparc, Solaris, Unicos, Irix, OpenBSD).  Until 
>TextWrangler, BBEdit, and Affrus work consistently in all those places - 
>and yes, that includes over slow network connections - they are unworthy 
>of consideration.
>
>But if you want to limit yourself to just one platform, you go right 
>ahead.

As with most editor wars this is going off on a tangent. This one platform is 
OS X with which this list concerns itself and the original questioner was 
expressing doubts about using command line editors and therefore asked about 
alternative GUI ones. Whether or not they are worthy of your consideration 
because they don't work on Linux/x86, Linux/Sparc, Solaris, Unicos, Irix, 
OpenBSD or Playstation is neither here or there in this context although I very 
much enjoyed hearing your opinion.

Also I *can* use vim...

Cheers,

Regards,

Phil.

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Ted Zeng]

Hi, all,
Thanks for all the replies. They are all very useful to me.
I have downloaded TextWrangler and used it for a short while. It 
satisfies all my need right now.
In fact, I feel it is better than the shareware I used to use for 
editing Perl scripts on Windows.
TextWrangler is free from Bare Bone Software, which also sells BBEdit.

I have learnt vi before. Than I used MPW shell. I never get really 
comfortable with vi.
But I can still edit a file when it is needed on a UNIX. But it is 
clumsy for me.

Some friends have recommended vim and emacs to me. And one of the 
reasons is he can
remotely edit a text file very easily. Maybe one day I will learn emacs 
or vim
as a challenge. One more thing that I feel uncomfortable with is 
X-window stuff.

ted zeng
Adobe Systems

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[David Cantrell]

Phil Dobbin wrote:
On 02/03/2005 @ 22:39 GMT, David Cantrell, [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:
John Delacour wrote:
I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
would 
use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. I can 
imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii
You imagine wrong.  There's a reason that emacs and vi have been popular 
for so many years, and since long before OS X was even thought of.
I sense the perennial 'when I was a lad and that's all we had' hypothesis
> coming up but was this the reason for their popularity?
The reasons that they were popular and still are have already been 
listed.  All to do with utility and nothing to do with the fact that I 
used to have to work 25 hours a day down pit for nowt but a bag of 
gravel AND I WAS GRATEFUL FOR WHAT I GOT.

If so it's kind of lame seeing as we know have alternatives that work
> very well and more intuitively on their given platform (i.e. OS X)
OS X is only one of many platforms I use.  This is the case for most 
programmers whose opinions I respect.  I want my most important tool, 
the one in which I write the code that earns me the money I need for 
buying whisky, to work consistently everywhere that I work (OS X, 
Linux/x86, Linux/Sparc, Solaris, Unicos, Irix, OpenBSD).  Until 
TextWrangler, BBEdit, and Affrus work consistently in all those places - 
and yes, that includes over slow network connections - they are unworthy 
of consideration.

But if you want to limit yourself to just one platform, you go right ahead.
--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age
   It doesn't matter to me if someone else's computer is faster because
   I know my system could smash theirs flat if it fell over on it.
-- (with apologies to Brian Chase)

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Phil Dobbin]

On 02/03/2005 @ 22:39 GMT, David Cantrell, [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

>John Delacour wrote:

>> I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
>>would 
>> use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. I can 
>> imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii
>
>You imagine wrong.  There's a reason that emacs and vi have been popular 
>for so many years, and since long before OS X was even thought of.

[...]

I sense the perennial 'when I was a lad and that's all we had' hypothesis 
coming up but was this the reason for their popularity?

If so it's kind of lame seeing as we know have alternatives that work very well 
and more intuitively on their given platform (i.e. OS X)

Cheers,

Regards,

Phil.

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[David Cantrell]

John Delacour wrote:
At 9:45 pm + 2/3/05, Phil Dobbin wrote:
I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is not 
the best idea...
I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone would 
use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. I can 
imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii
You imagine wrong.  There's a reason that emacs and vi have been popular 
for so many years, and since long before OS X was even thought of.

>  and either a
nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but maybe that's 
because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)
If you put non-ASCII in your code you're doing something wrong. 
Language-specific stuff - including English - belongs in a seperate 
resource file if you care about internationalisation.

--
David Cantrell | Hero of the Information Age
 Nuke a disabled unborn gay baby whale for JESUS!

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Phil Dobbin]

On 02/03/2005 @ 22:25 GMT, Wiggins d'Anconia, [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

>John Delacour wrote:

>> I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
>>would 
>> use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. I can 
>> imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and either a 
>> nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but maybe that's 
>> because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)

>They aren't free (well BBedit and Affrus), they aren't cross platform 
>(why learn a different editor for each platform), and they require lots 
>of clicky.
>
>I have never logged into a system where I couldn't use vi. (well maybe a 
>windows box, but it didn't take long to install gvim or cygwin.)

In the case in point though he's using OS X so why not use the best tools for 
the platform you're on? If one day he gets stuck on Atari he'll have to learn 
vim/emacs/whatever.

No point suffering til then :-)

Cheers,

Regards,

Phil.
--
Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day
Show a man grep and you'll never see him again

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Wiggins d'Anconia]

Wiggins d'Anconia wrote:
John Delacour wrote:
At 9:45 pm + 2/3/05, Phil Dobbin wrote:
I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is 
not the best idea...

I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
would use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. 
I can imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and 
either a nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but 
maybe that's because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)

JD

They aren't free (well BBedit and Affrus), they aren't cross platform 
(why learn a different editor for each platform), and they require lots 
of clicky.

I have never logged into a system where I couldn't use vi. (well maybe a 
windows box, but it didn't take long to install gvim or cygwin.)

http://danconia.org

p.s. forgot one, they require some sort of "X" like display, have you 
ever edited a text file on a remote machine with no remote display? or a 
remote display over a modem? no thanks

http://danconia.org

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Wiggins d'Anconia]

John Delacour wrote:
At 9:45 pm + 2/3/05, Phil Dobbin wrote:
I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is not 
the best idea...

I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone would 
use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. I can 
imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and either a 
nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but maybe that's 
because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)

JD

They aren't free (well BBedit and Affrus), they aren't cross platform 
(why learn a different editor for each platform), and they require lots 
of clicky.

I have never logged into a system where I couldn't use vi. (well maybe a 
windows box, but it didn't take long to install gvim or cygwin.)

http://danconia.org

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[John Delacour]

At 9:45 pm + 2/3/05, Phil Dobbin wrote:
I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is 
not the best idea...
I'd love to hear a convincing explanation from someone why anyone 
would use such tools in preference to TextWrangler, BBEdit or Affrus. 
I can imagine they'd make it a chore to write code in us-ascii and 
either a nightmare or an impossibility to deal with non-ascii, but 
maybe that's because I'm just an unreformed Mac user :-)

JD

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Phil Dobbin]

On 02/03/2005 @ 21:28 GMT, Tommy Nordgren, [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

>There is a double clickable version of emacs available. There is a link 
>to it at Apple's sight.

I'm thinking that if he's not comfortable with pico maybe emacs is not the best 
idea...

Cheers,

Regards,

Phil.

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Tommy Nordgren]

There is a double clickable version of emacs available. There is a link 
to it at Apple's sight.

Mar 2, 2005 kl. 6:38 PM skrev Ted Zeng:
Hi,
Thanks for the help here. I am almost finishing my first tool on OS X.
I am using TextEdit as the editor. I sometime use Pico, but I am still
not comfortable with Unix editor. I know there must be some good
editors for Perl. Do you have any recommendation?
ted zeng
Adobe Systems

"Home is not where you are born, but where your heart finds peace" -
Tommy Nordgren, "The dying old crone"

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Mike Schienle]

On Wed, March 2, 2005 12:43 pm, Wiggins d'Anconia said:
> Ted Zeng wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Thanks for the help here. I am almost finishing my first tool on OS X.

> Vim. Steep learning curve, learn once, use forever, anywhere.
>
> http://danconia.org
>

I'm a vim and BBEdit user. If you're interested in a collaborative
environment, you can check out SubEthaEdit at
http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/

-- 
Mike Schienle

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Wiggins d'Anconia]

Ted Zeng wrote:
Hi,
Thanks for the help here. I am almost finishing my first tool on OS X.
I am using TextEdit as the editor. I sometime use Pico, but I am still
not comfortable with Unix editor. I know there must be some good
editors for Perl. Do you have any recommendation?
ted zeng
Adobe Systems

Vim. Steep learning curve, learn once, use forever, anywhere.
http://danconia.org

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Phil Dobbin]

On 02/03/2005 @ 17:38 GMT, Ted Zeng, [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote:

>I am using TextEdit as the editor. I sometime use Pico, but I am still
>not comfortable with Unix editor. I know there must be some good
>editors for Perl. Do you have any recommendation?

BBEdit  and Affrus  
spring to mind.

Both cost money but are well worth it.

Cheers,

Regards,

Phil.

Re: What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Ian Ragsdale]

If you want to stay with something free, I'd suggest TextWrangler from 
Bare Bones:

http://www.barebones.com/products/textwrangler/index.shtml
It has good syntax coloring, and integrates well with the command-line 
perl - you can set a keyboard shortcut to run scripts & check their 
syntax, and you can write filters and other scripts in perl.  Pretty 
sweet for a free product.

Ian
On Mar 2, 2005, at 11:38 AM, Ted Zeng wrote:
Hi,
Thanks for the help here. I am almost finishing my first tool on OS X.
I am using TextEdit as the editor. I sometime use Pico, but I am still
not comfortable with Unix editor. I know there must be some good
editors for Perl. Do you have any recommendation?
ted zeng
Adobe Systems

What Perl editor do you recommend?

[Ted Zeng]

Hi,
Thanks for the help here. I am almost finishing my first tool on OS X.
I am using TextEdit as the editor. I sometime use Pico, but I am still
not comfortable with Unix editor. I know there must be some good
editors for Perl. Do you have any recommendation?
ted zeng
Adobe Systems