Re: A couple Terminal questions

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Thanks for the reminder, Greg. I'm just now starting the install of
TDSR. For me that means an update of homebrew, followed by an upgrade of
python3, and that is taking quite some time.

Hopeing the result will truly be easier to use than VO in the terminal,
as you suggest. That would be a good thing, imo.

Best,

Janina

Greg Wocher writes:
> Hello,
> You might want to try the TDSR console screen reader for Mac. It makes 
> working with the terminal a bit easier. It can be found at:
> https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
> 
> Greg Wocher
> 
> > On Mar 29, 2020, at 10:21 AM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > When working in Terminal and command line, is it possible to examine the 
> > window content with Voiceover?  Say , ls -l command produces a list of 
> > files in the directory I am in.  How can I examine each file and maybe even 
> > copy their names to clipboard or details about them if I were to use the -l 
> > flag, which would produce long information about each item.
> > 
> > Secondly, reading a book on Command Line, one of the shortcut techniques 
> > the author teaches is to start typing the name of a directory to which one 
> > wishes to change and then pressing tab, which would result in Terminal 
> > completing the name or else giving a list of available names if there 
> > should be more than one.  This doesn’t seem to work.  When I press the tab, 
> > I hear the ominous bong bong.  So this technique doesn’t work.  Any 
> > thoughts on this?
> > 
> > andrew
> > 
> > -- 
> > The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> > Visionaries list.
> > 
> > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
> > or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> > 
> > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
> >  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> > caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> > 
> > The archives for this list can be searched at:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> > --- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/BB072597-FDA8-4971-B666-361890504466%40me.com.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/0FFD2285-C62A-4115-B8FD-1DEE44486FA8%40gwocher.com.

-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200330053201.GM2206%40rednote.net.

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Andrew:

I will attempt my own answer to your questions. Karen will likely have
her own answer for you.

I'm unaccustomed to hearing that term applied to a machine running a
Linux as it's one and only OS; however, it is true that you can do a lot
from the Linux CLI. Looking at the items in your list one by one:

email

Absolutely. Current best choice, imo, would be mutt for your user agent.
That's what I'm using write now to write this email to you.

You can run your complete email solution, in fact. You'll notice my
emails don't come from some third party, but rather from my own personal
domain, rednote.net, where I accept emails from the Internet and send
out via the Internet. I happen to use an application called sendmail as
my MTA, my "mail transfer agent." Were I starting from scratch today,
I'd probably rather go with postfix than sendmail.

Web browser

I still use lynx all the time. However, there's much it can't do today
for which a graphical-based browser is essential.

So the answer here is, "no."

document creation

Absolutely yes.

You will soon need to decide whether you're a vim or an emacs kind of
person. Those are the two top choices for character based editing tools
on the cli. There are a few others, but you really want to settle one
one or the other of these. The choice between these two is very much
about personal preference. Ask for advice and you risk retriggering the
oldest flame war in starnixland: i.e. star nix for *nix meaning all the
various flavors of unix like systems including Linux, and including the
BSD on which Apple is based.

You'll also use tools like pandoc and markdown.

Your senior level thesis will be written in latex, which you can then
use for the remainder of your days.

PS: I am also my own phone company via my Linux server. Yet another
story for another day.

Best,

Janina

'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries writes:
> I’m going to show my utter ignorance.  What do you mean by virgin only linux 
> machine?  I don’t lack education but in computers/operating systems, I’m a 
> baby so I need little steps.  So do you mean pure Linux?  And does this 
> exist?  Can we therefore run email, web browser, document creation like in an 
> office suite only from command line? I’d like to think that and would happily 
> work hard to attempt to learn.  Is this what’s meant?
> 
> Andrew
> > On 29 Mar 2020, at 19:07, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> > 
> > If I follow, that would not be the case  if one created a virgin Linux only 
> > machine  though correct?
> > having never been a windows user, I was simply  wondering if one could use 
> > the   Linux command line platform in its entirety, but it seems that is not 
> > the case.
> > These days even DOS has Links the chain.
> > And   as you did not include elinks I am guessing that browser tool is no 
> > longer an option?
> > 
> > Kare
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> > 
> >> Karen:
> >> 
> >> It would be the same as you're already familiar with from other Linux
> >> situations. It's just the plain old Linux console, so the two likely
> >> options are lynx the cat or links the chain.
> >> 
> >> Of course, you still have the option to Alt-TAB your way to the Windows
> >> desktop for Chrome, Firefox, or Edge.
> >> 
> >> Best,
> >> 
> >> Janina
> >> 
> >> Karen Lewellen writes:
> >>> Enjoying this exchange.
> >>> I am wondering what browsers are used in  either this command line
> >>> environment, or the one you illustrated for Andrew?
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> >>> 
>  Hi, Simon:
>  
>  Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device
>  drivers either. Just the command line environment.
>  
>  Learn more here:
>  
>  https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
>  
>  
>  Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.
>  
>  Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that
>  many people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
>  Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X
>  Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a
>  boring utility, why would I ever want it?
>  
>  Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and
>  it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix)
>  environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point
>  and click environments.
>  
>  Best,
>  
>  Janina
>  
>  Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > Hang on what?
> > 
> > Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> > 
> > That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install
> > 
> > How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone 
> > who really hasn't touched linux in years?
> > 
> > 

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Karen:

You are correct. Linux under Microsoft's WSL is not a complete
replacement for a fully capable Linux machine. It's not trying to be
that. It's providing access to tools software developers need.

When early beta versions of WSL were first made available, my
heavyweight programmer friends were saying things like: "Oh cool! I
don't have to have two computers anymore!"

The fact that some ordinary mortals, like yours truly, find WSL useful
is just icing on the cake, but we're not the cake Microsoft baked up.

Best,

Janina

Karen Lewellen writes:
> If I follow, that would not be the case  if one created a virgin Linux only
> machine  though correct?
> having never been a windows user, I was simply  wondering if one could use
> the   Linux command line platform in its entirety, but it seems that is not
> the case.
> These days even DOS has Links the chain.
> And   as you did not include elinks I am guessing that browser tool is no
> longer an option?
> 
> Kare
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> 
> > Karen:
> > 
> > It would be the same as you're already familiar with from other Linux
> > situations. It's just the plain old Linux console, so the two likely
> > options are lynx the cat or links the chain.
> > 
> > Of course, you still have the option to Alt-TAB your way to the Windows
> > desktop for Chrome, Firefox, or Edge.
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > Karen Lewellen writes:
> > > Enjoying this exchange.
> > > I am wondering what browsers are used in  either this command line
> > > environment, or the one you illustrated for Andrew?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hi, Simon:
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device
> > > > drivers either. Just the command line environment.
> > > > 
> > > > Learn more here:
> > > > 
> > > > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.
> > > > 
> > > > Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that
> > > > many people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
> > > > Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X
> > > > Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a
> > > > boring utility, why would I ever want it?
> > > > 
> > > > Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and
> > > > it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix)
> > > > environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point
> > > > and click environments.
> > > > 
> > > > Best,
> > > > 
> > > > Janina
> > > > 
> > > > Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > > > > Hang on what?
> > > > > 
> > > > >  Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> > > > > 
> > > > > That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install
> > > > > 
> > > > > How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone 
> > > > > who really hasn't touched linux in years?
> > > > > 
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
> > > > > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> > > > > separate machine? Pls answer off list
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hi, Simon:
> > > > > 
> > > > > I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't 
> > > > > know that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just 
> > > > > don't actually know.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by 
> > > > > trying. The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow 
> > > > > up and start over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to 
> > > > > gain knowledge. Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No 
> > > > > problem, start over. You lose nothing.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on 
> > > > > that machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now 
> > > > > supporting running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the 
> > > > > best supported of them is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a 
> > > > > Ubuntu shell to ssh into my Linux server. Works well these days now 
> > > > > that someone fixed NVDA focus in the terminal.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device 
> > > > > and application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove 
> > > > > software.
> > > > > Here's an example to install mplayer:
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Debian and Ubuntu:
> > > > > apt-get install mplayer
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Arch (which uses pacman):
> > > > > 
> > > > > pacman -S 

Re: A couple Terminal questions

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Hi, Andrew:

Glad to hear you're giving the CLI the old college try. Hope it becomes
a very comfortable environment for you!

I want to suggest it's important you focus on zsh as Apple now defaults
to zsh.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208050.

Since you're a beginning command line user, you don't want to waste time
learning something you would need to unlearn soon. While bash isn't all
that different, it's different enough yours truly has yet to take the
plunge herself. But, that's my problem. I'm just saying don't make it
your problem.

To check which shell you're using type:

env |grep -i shell

Unpacking the above command for you:

env is shorthand for "environment. Type just 'env' plus return to learn
about your environment.

The vertical bar, which is entered by shift-backslash, the key
immediately above return,  is known in the cli world as the pipe symbol.
In our example above it indicates that the output of the 'env' command
is to be run through a second command, grep.

grep is an ancient Unixism better known to the unwashed as find.
Literally, it derives from "get repetition." If you hear someone saying,
"grep" in ordinary conversation, they might be showing off or something.

The dash i means ignore case as you look through the output of the env
command.

Lastly, the word we're looking for, 'shell' is entered in our command.

Thus, the voluminous output of env is reduced to the one item you're
interested in.

If the answer is something other than:

SHELL=/bin/zsh

Stop everything you're doing and switch to zsh by simply typing zsh and
pressing return.

You'll notice your ordinary user gives you the percentage symbol as your
shell prompt. That's yet another way to know you're in zsh.

To make the change permanent do:

chsh /bin/zsh

You guessed it, 'chsh' means "change shell."

PS: One kind of snobish impercation involving the pipe symbel and 
understandable by programmers and
other cli mayvens is to say: "Pipe it to dev null."

If you should enter:

ls -l /dev/null

You'll discover a writable/readable device (that's the crw' part)
called, "null." As you might guess, 'null' is nothing, nowhere. It's
were garbage goes when programming.

So, the impercation is a more polite way of saying: "go to h**l."

PPS: Your zsh skills are transferrable. You can use them on any Unix
like system, including Linux.

Best,

Janina


'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries writes:
> Jonathan,
> 
> You are so kind.  Thank you for your response.  I’m new to the command line, 
> but I’m very serious in learning.  So your kind attitude and response in 
> non-technical terms is very welcome.  As to the 2nd point, I was surprised 
> because I’m following Joe Kissel’s from TitBits Take Control of the Command 
> Line in Mac OS book and that’s what he recommends: use of the tab key.
> 
> If you were happy/had the time to point me towards any materials on command 
> line/linux, i’d be very grateful.  Or if you know of anyone who’d be happy to 
> give some tutorials on Linux, paid of course, I’d appreciate that too.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Andrew 
> > On 29 Mar 2020, at 20:14, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> > 
> > Well, for the first question just interact a few times with the window and 
> > you should be able to use the voiceover cursor to review and select things. 
> > VO-return should start selecting and vo-return a second time should finish 
> > the selection operation. Also, double  tapping with mouse will select a 
> > word. I thought that triple tapping would select a line but had no luck 
> > with that. Of course make sure your mouse is where your VO cursor is before 
> > using the VO shift space to do the tapping.
> > 
> > Your second question was related to file completion.
> > This might depend on the shell you are using accounts created in Mojave or 
> > earlier use bash  and Catalina created account default to zsh.  Also, it 
> > will depend on what the behavior is for partial completions. If you have 
> > the files 
> > dar1 dar2 dar3 and dar4 
> > Pressing d followed by escape will fill in "dar" and then I believe beep. 
> > If you press tap a second time then you should get a list of possible 
> > matches. Note this behavior is strictly related to the shell you are 
> > running and its options set in the  shell default / profile / login files.
> > Jonathan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> On Mar 29, 2020, at 10:21 AM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
> >> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> When working in Terminal and command line, is it possible to examine the 
> >> window content with Voiceover?  Say , ls -l command produces a list of 
> >> files in the directory I am in.  How can I examine each file and maybe 
> >> even copy their names to clipboard or details about them if I were to use 
> >> the -l flag, which would produce long information about each item.
> >> 
> >> Secondly, reading a book on Command Line, one of the shortcut techniques 
> >> the author teaches is 

Re: A couple Terminal questions

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Hi Jonathan, Andrew, All:

With respect to using the tab key in the terminal ...

Jonathan Cohn writes:
> Your second question was related to file completion.

This says too little. Yes, filename completion, but also command
completion.

In fact the strategy is widely implemented because it helps us all avoid
making mistakes that cause us to retype stuff.

It should work. If you're hearing a sound, it's because there are more
than one completions. Hit tab a second time and you'll get a list of
possible completions.

Type a few more chars and you'll get either the entire command/filename,
or another sound.

This feature is common to shells these days. Every shell has it across
all platforms. You can use it in Windows Power Shell, for instance.
Everybody has it because it's so darn useful. Like I said, retyping a
long complex command isn't fun. So, use tab early and often to get it
right the first time.

PS: The feature is called "tab completion."

Best,

Janina


> This might depend on the shell you are using accounts created in Mojave or 
> earlier use bash  and Catalina created account default to zsh.  Also, it will 
> depend on what the behavior is for partial completions. If you have the files 
> dar1 dar2 dar3 and dar4 
> Pressing d followed by escape will fill in "dar" and then I believe beep. If 
> you press tap a second time then you should get a list of possible matches. 
> Note this behavior is strictly related to the shell you are running and its 
> options set in the  shell default / profile / login files.
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
> > On Mar 29, 2020, at 10:21 AM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > When working in Terminal and command line, is it possible to examine the 
> > window content with Voiceover?  Say , ls -l command produces a list of 
> > files in the directory I am in.  How can I examine each file and maybe even 
> > copy their names to clipboard or details about them if I were to use the -l 
> > flag, which would produce long information about each item.
> > 
> > Secondly, reading a book on Command Line, one of the shortcut techniques 
> > the author teaches is to start typing the name of a directory to which one 
> > wishes to change and then pressing tab, which would result in Terminal 
> > completing the name or else giving a list of available names if there 
> > should be more than one.  This doesn’t seem to work.  When I press the tab, 
> > I hear the ominous bong bong.  So this technique doesn’t work.  Any 
> > thoughts on this?
> > 
> > andrew
> > 
> > -- 
> > The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> > Visionaries list.
> > 
> > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
> > or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> > 
> > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
> >  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> > caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> > 
> > The archives for this list can be searched at:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> > --- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/BB072597-FDA8-4971-B666-361890504466%40me.com.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/A4BCF15C-9CD0-44CD-84BA-402532821C3A%40gmail.com.

-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the 

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

[Karen Lewellen]

 My understanding from the suggested idea is for you to secure hardware, 
and install Linux only.  a console rather than desktop edition.

If I am mistaken   by the suggestion I will certainly stand corrected.
I personally  use Linux Ubuntu via shell services, reaching them via ssh 
TELNET.
At least in one  service case, there are many options for  mail, browsing, 
document 
creation etc., but in this case the services are configured and maintained 
by others.

I reach them as outlined, from my home computer.
that home computer runs  one of the more recent, comparatively speaking, 
editions of DOS, from about 2005, instead of freedos, which is current 
enough  to be installed on commercially available hardware.


My choices  may 
not be a structure that  is suitable for others, but it works for 
me.
I have yet to discover a distribution of Linux  which  I could have 
installed  as its own operating system that would provide me with the 
quality of speech, and functionality

 of screen reader, surpassing what I am  using now.
Again, though that is my  individual preference.  since no two people 
access computers  the same,  your mileage  will vary as it should.


 Kare



On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries wrote:


I’m going to show my utter ignorance.  What do you mean by virgin only linux 
machine?  I don’t lack education but in computers/operating systems, I’m a baby 
so I need little steps.  So do you mean pure Linux?  And does this exist?  Can 
we therefore run email, web browser, document creation like in an office suite 
only from command line? I’d like to think that and would happily work hard to 
attempt to learn.  Is this what’s meant?

Andrew

On 29 Mar 2020, at 19:07, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

If I follow, that would not be the case  if one created a virgin Linux only 
machine  though correct?
having never been a windows user, I was simply  wondering if one could use the  
 Linux command line platform in its entirety, but it seems that is not the case.
These days even DOS has Links the chain.
And   as you did not include elinks I am guessing that browser tool is no 
longer an option?

Kare



On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:


Karen:

It would be the same as you're already familiar with from other Linux
situations. It's just the plain old Linux console, so the two likely
options are lynx the cat or links the chain.

Of course, you still have the option to Alt-TAB your way to the Windows
desktop for Chrome, Firefox, or Edge.

Best,

Janina

Karen Lewellen writes:

Enjoying this exchange.
I am wondering what browsers are used in  either this command line
environment, or the one you illustrated for Andrew?



On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:


Hi, Simon:

Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device
drivers either. Just the command line environment.

Learn more here:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10


Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.

Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that
many people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X
Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a
boring utility, why would I ever want it?

Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and
it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix)
environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point
and click environments.

Best,

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:

Hang on what?

Ubuntu will install in to windows ?

That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install

How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who really 
hasn't touched linux in years?

-Original Message-
From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate 
machine? Pls answer off list

Hi, Simon:

I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know that 
for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't actually know.

The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by trying. 
The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and start over 
on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain knowledge. Unhappy with 
the choices you made installing? No problem, start over. You lose nothing.

It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.

Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now supporting 
running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best supported of them 
is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to ssh into my Linux 

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

I’m going to show my utter ignorance.  What do you mean by virgin only linux 
machine?  I don’t lack education but in computers/operating systems, I’m a baby 
so I need little steps.  So do you mean pure Linux?  And does this exist?  Can 
we therefore run email, web browser, document creation like in an office suite 
only from command line? I’d like to think that and would happily work hard to 
attempt to learn.  Is this what’s meant?

Andrew
> On 29 Mar 2020, at 19:07, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> If I follow, that would not be the case  if one created a virgin Linux only 
> machine  though correct?
> having never been a windows user, I was simply  wondering if one could use 
> the   Linux command line platform in its entirety, but it seems that is not 
> the case.
> These days even DOS has Links the chain.
> And   as you did not include elinks I am guessing that browser tool is no 
> longer an option?
> 
> Kare
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> 
>> Karen:
>> 
>> It would be the same as you're already familiar with from other Linux
>> situations. It's just the plain old Linux console, so the two likely
>> options are lynx the cat or links the chain.
>> 
>> Of course, you still have the option to Alt-TAB your way to the Windows
>> desktop for Chrome, Firefox, or Edge.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Janina
>> 
>> Karen Lewellen writes:
>>> Enjoying this exchange.
>>> I am wondering what browsers are used in  either this command line
>>> environment, or the one you illustrated for Andrew?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>>> 
 Hi, Simon:
 
 Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device
 drivers either. Just the command line environment.
 
 Learn more here:
 
 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
 
 
 Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.
 
 Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that
 many people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
 Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X
 Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a
 boring utility, why would I ever want it?
 
 Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and
 it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix)
 environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point
 and click environments.
 
 Best,
 
 Janina
 
 Simon A Fogarty writes:
> Hang on what?
> 
> Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> 
> That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install
> 
> How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who 
> really hasn't touched linux in years?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> separate machine? Pls answer off list
> 
> Hi, Simon:
> 
> I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't 
> know that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't 
> actually know.
> 
> The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by 
> trying. The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up 
> and start over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain 
> knowledge. Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, 
> start over. You lose nothing.
> 
> It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
> machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.
> 
> Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now 
> supporting running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best 
> supported of them is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell 
> to ssh into my Linux server. Works well these days now that someone fixed 
> NVDA focus in the terminal.
> 
> Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
> application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
> Here's an example to install mplayer:
> 
> On Debian and Ubuntu:
> apt-get install mplayer
> 
> On Arch (which uses pacman):
> 
> pacman -S mplayer
> Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
> yay -S mplayer
> 
> On Fedora:
> dnf install mplayer
> 
> The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not 
> be all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash 
> (or zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but 

Re: A couple Terminal questions

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

Jonathan,

You are so kind.  Thank you for your response.  I’m new to the command line, 
but I’m very serious in learning.  So your kind attitude and response in 
non-technical terms is very welcome.  As to the 2nd point, I was surprised 
because I’m following Joe Kissel’s from TitBits Take Control of the Command 
Line in Mac OS book and that’s what he recommends: use of the tab key.

If you were happy/had the time to point me towards any materials on command 
line/linux, i’d be very grateful.  Or if you know of anyone who’d be happy to 
give some tutorials on Linux, paid of course, I’d appreciate that too.

With best wishes

Andrew 
> On 29 Mar 2020, at 20:14, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> Well, for the first question just interact a few times with the window and 
> you should be able to use the voiceover cursor to review and select things. 
> VO-return should start selecting and vo-return a second time should finish 
> the selection operation. Also, double  tapping with mouse will select a word. 
> I thought that triple tapping would select a line but had no luck with that. 
> Of course make sure your mouse is where your VO cursor is before using the VO 
> shift space to do the tapping.
> 
> Your second question was related to file completion.
> This might depend on the shell you are using accounts created in Mojave or 
> earlier use bash  and Catalina created account default to zsh.  Also, it will 
> depend on what the behavior is for partial completions. If you have the files 
> dar1 dar2 dar3 and dar4 
> Pressing d followed by escape will fill in "dar" and then I believe beep. If 
> you press tap a second time then you should get a list of possible matches. 
> Note this behavior is strictly related to the shell you are running and its 
> options set in the  shell default / profile / login files.
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 10:21 AM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> When working in Terminal and command line, is it possible to examine the 
>> window content with Voiceover?  Say , ls -l command produces a list of files 
>> in the directory I am in.  How can I examine each file and maybe even copy 
>> their names to clipboard or details about them if I were to use the -l flag, 
>> which would produce long information about each item.
>> 
>> Secondly, reading a book on Command Line, one of the shortcut techniques the 
>> author teaches is to start typing the name of a directory to which one 
>> wishes to change and then pressing tab, which would result in Terminal 
>> completing the name or else giving a list of available names if there should 
>> be more than one.  This doesn’t seem to work.  When I press the tab, I hear 
>> the ominous bong bong.  So this technique doesn’t work.  Any thoughts on 
>> this?
>> 
>> andrew
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>> 
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/BB072597-FDA8-4971-B666-361890504466%40me.com.
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> 

Re: Keychain

[Lorie McCloud]

ok. that explains why I can't find it. thanks.

> On Mar 28, 2020, at 10:40 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Yes.  In order to use iCloud Keychain on your iOS device, you must have a 
> passcode enabled.  Once you have a passcode, you may use either TouchID or 
> FaceID, but this is optional.
> Keychain will not work without security enabled.
> 
> HTH
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 28, 2020, at 19:47, Lorie McCloud  > wrote:
> 
> are you saying that you have to have security code and/or fingerprint enabled 
> in order to use keychain on your IOS device? 
> 
>> On Mar 28, 2020, at 6:17 PM, 'Kawal Gucukoglu' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I like my keychain to be simple.  If Mark’s wonderful keychain can keep my 
>> passwords safe especially if I rely on the keychain to remember my passwords 
>> for the websites I visit, then I am a happy person as I can’t remember 
>> generated passwords so I keep my passwords simple but strong for me to 
>> remember.  So Mark, how much is your wonderful keychain?
>> 
>> Kawal.
>> 
>>> On 28 Mar 2020, at 15:14, 'Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> When in Safari, double-tap either the username entry field, or the password 
>>> entry field.  This will activate your cursor and bring up the on-screen 
>>> keyboard.  This next part isn't consistent, as sometimes it takes more 
>>> swipes than others, but, if you have a keychain entry for this item, there 
>>> will either be a suggestion or a "Password" button as you swipe right from 
>>> the entry fields.
>>> 
>>> So, for example, if you were on www.fitbit.com , 
>>> and you double-tapped in the username field, then swiped right listening to 
>>> the various elements announced by VO, you might get an item announced such 
>>> as "Use Lori with such and such eMail address for fitbit.com 
>>> ?".  If that is the one you wish to use, then 
>>> double-tap it.  If it is not, or if the keychain is having difficulties 
>>> figuring out which entry to use, there will also be a Password button that 
>>> you can use that will open up all entries in your keychain.  Your 
>>> fingerprint or FaceID will be required in both cases to access the keychain 
>>> entries.  Also, the actual passwords are not displayed, just the site and 
>>> username possibilities.  If you do not get a specific suggestion, then 
>>> simply swipe through the choices until you find the one you wish to use.  
>>> Double-tap on it and its credentials will be entered for you.  You will 
>>> usually still need to double-tap the Sign-In or LogIn buttons to proceed, 
>>> but this is also a little inconsistent.  I'm not sure if the 
>>> inconsistencies are due to Apple or due to the inconsistent nature of 
>>> web-page coding.
>>> 
>>> HTH.
>>> 
>>> Later...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Jamf Certified Tech
>>> Apple Teacher
>>> (with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
>>> On Mar 28, 2020, at 00:15, Lorie McCloud >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mark,
>>> 
>>> you're right. it's complicated. Safari is the only browser I use but I was 
>>> expecting it to be as easy to use as the saved credentials are on a Mac. 
>>> not that I don't have all my passwords written down but since they're 
>>> already saved in Safari on my Mac I was hoping to use a few of them on my 
>>> phone. oh well... I'll play around with it and see what happens.
>>> 
>>> Lorie
>>> 
 On Mar 27, 2020, at 8:12 PM, M. Taylor >>> > wrote:
 
 Hello Lorie,
 
 You ask a simple question but, I’m afraid, the answer is not so simple.
 
 Let me start by saying that I think the Apple Key Chain, as a password 
 manager, is an excellent alternative to some third-party password managers.
 
 It's safe, easy to use, consistent across all of your Apple devices, and 
 free, as it were.
 
 In short, there are two general methods for using Apple Key Chain, as a 
 password manager.  The first method, which is what I suspect you wish to 
 learn how to use, is to have the Key Chain automatically enter your login 
 credentials when prompted by an app or a website.
 
 The second method is to open the Key Chain password manager and lookup the 
 login credentials, manually.
 
 I suggest that you read the Apple user manuals and search for relative 
 topics via Google as, in my opinion, there are just too many variables and 
 nuances of Key Chain, as a password manager, to cover in one succinct 
 reply.
 
 However, I will list the following points that you should keep in mind 
 when exploring the Apple Key Chain as a password manager.
 
 Please keep in mind that I am referring to the automatic entry feature of 
 the Apple Key Chain, as a password manager, 

Re: A couple Terminal questions

[Jonathan Cohn]

Well, for the first question just interact a few times with the window and you 
should be able to use the voiceover cursor to review and select things. 
VO-return should start selecting and vo-return a second time should finish the 
selection operation. Also, double  tapping with mouse will select a word. I 
thought that triple tapping would select a line but had no luck with that. Of 
course make sure your mouse is where your VO cursor is before using the VO 
shift space to do the tapping.

Your second question was related to file completion.
This might depend on the shell you are using accounts created in Mojave or 
earlier use bash  and Catalina created account default to zsh.  Also, it will 
depend on what the behavior is for partial completions. If you have the files 
dar1 dar2 dar3 and dar4 
Pressing d followed by escape will fill in "dar" and then I believe beep. If 
you press tap a second time then you should get a list of possible matches. 
Note this behavior is strictly related to the shell you are running and its 
options set in the  shell default / profile / login files.
Jonathan



> On Mar 29, 2020, at 10:21 AM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> When working in Terminal and command line, is it possible to examine the 
> window content with Voiceover?  Say , ls -l command produces a list of files 
> in the directory I am in.  How can I examine each file and maybe even copy 
> their names to clipboard or details about them if I were to use the -l flag, 
> which would produce long information about each item.
> 
> Secondly, reading a book on Command Line, one of the shortcut techniques the 
> author teaches is to start typing the name of a directory to which one wishes 
> to change and then pressing tab, which would result in Terminal completing 
> the name or else giving a list of available names if there should be more 
> than one.  This doesn’t seem to work.  When I press the tab, I hear the 
> ominous bong bong.  So this technique doesn’t work.  Any thoughts on this?
> 
> andrew
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/BB072597-FDA8-4971-B666-361890504466%40me.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/A4BCF15C-9CD0-44CD-84BA-402532821C3A%40gmail.com.

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

[Karen Lewellen]

If I follow, that would not be the case  if one created a virgin Linux 
only machine  though correct?
having never been a windows user, I was simply  wondering if one could use 
the   Linux command line platform in its entirety, but it seems that is 
not the case.

These days even DOS has Links the chain.
And   as you did not include elinks I am guessing that browser tool is no 
longer an option?


Kare



On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:


Karen:

It would be the same as you're already familiar with from other Linux
situations. It's just the plain old Linux console, so the two likely
options are lynx the cat or links the chain.

Of course, you still have the option to Alt-TAB your way to the Windows
desktop for Chrome, Firefox, or Edge.

Best,

Janina

Karen Lewellen writes:

Enjoying this exchange.
I am wondering what browsers are used in  either this command line
environment, or the one you illustrated for Andrew?



On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:


Hi, Simon:

Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device
drivers either. Just the command line environment.

Learn more here:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10


Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.

Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that
many people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X
Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a
boring utility, why would I ever want it?

Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and
it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix)
environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point
and click environments.

Best,

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:

Hang on what?

 Ubuntu will install in to windows ?

That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install

How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who really 
hasn't touched linux in years?

-Original Message-
From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate 
machine? Pls answer off list

Hi, Simon:

I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know that 
for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't actually know.

The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by trying. 
The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and start over 
on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain knowledge. Unhappy with 
the choices you made installing? No problem, start over. You lose nothing.

It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.

Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now supporting 
running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best supported of them 
is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to ssh into my Linux 
server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA focus in the terminal.

Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
Here's an example to install mplayer:

On Debian and Ubuntu:
apt-get install mplayer

On Arch (which uses pacman):

pacman -S mplayer
Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
yay -S mplayer

On Fedora:
dnf install mplayer

The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be all 
that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or zsh) 
commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, software 
management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac (where the 
terminal is essentially BSD Unix).

hth

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:

Hi Janina,

Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested,

What about ubuntu these days?

-Original Message-
From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries

Sent: Friday, 27 March 2020 6:55 PM
To: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries

Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a
separate machine? Pls answer off list

OK, Andrew, I understand your situation. I'll give you my advice. But, as 
you've undoubtedly already learned, advice is cheap and various people will be 
passionate about their views.

So, let me give you a first things first approach as my top suggestion.
Keep it simple, and keep the main thing the main thing. Linux is a "some 
assembly" required kind of environment. If you break it, you get to keep both pieces.

So, forget vmware or any other virtualization. Not because they're unworthy, 
they're perfect for their task, but they're complicating 

Re: Mac Mini Now On Order

['Tim Kilburn' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

To add to Brad's info, for the mouse, when bottom up so that you have access to 
the charging port, the port would be at six o'clock and the power switch would 
be at about 1 o'clock.  move the switch up to power on and down to power off.  
Similar to the keyboard as Brad explained, the initial pairing of the mouse can 
be done by plugging in the charge cable to your Mac.

HTH.

Later...


Tim Kilburn
Jamf Certified Tech
Apple Teacher
(with Swift Playgrounds Recognition)
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Mar 29, 2020, at 01:29, Brad Snyder  wrote:

The bluetooth keyboard is powered by an internal rechargeable battery.  A 
Lightning to USB-A cable is included with the keyboard for charging, just like 
an iPhone.  This cable can also be used for initial pairing with the mac mini.
The Lightning port is located dead-center along the top edge of the keyboard.  
The little slide switch you feel is used to turn power on/off.

If you purchased a Magic Bluetooth mouse, it also comes with a Lightning to 
USB-A cable for charging and initial pairing.  The Lightning port on the mouse 
is on the bottom side of the mouse.  It is hard to find, but it is located a 
little forward of center.  There may also be a power switch on the mouse, but 
I’m not sure where it is.  My wife has one of these units, but I don’t use one 
myself because I prefer to use a trackpad.

Battery life on both is pretty good.  Depending on your use, you may only need 
to charge the keyboard and mouse about once a month, of course your mileage may 
vary.

HTH

- Brad -


On Mar 29, 2020, at 01:46, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
wrote:

Thanks, Brad. This is incredibly valuable info to me.


Do you know about powering the bluetooth keyboard? I would imagine
there's some kind of batteries involved, but I can find nothing that
feels like a compartment for them. I feel the tiny little slide switch
on the upper right hand outer corner. But, my Airbook doesn't offer the
keyboard for pairing whichever slide position I have the keyboard switch
in.

Thanks!

Janina

Brad Snyder writes:
> Janina,
> 
> The Mac mini’s power button is on the right rear corner.  You should have no 
> trouble finding it.
> 
> I use an older Mac USB keyboard from 2006 on my mini, but my wife has a newer 
> version on her iMac with the same layout as the newer full-size bluetooth 
> keyboards.
> The Qwerty area is pretty much the same as on your MB Air, with a few 
> exceptions:
> 1.  The Fn key is relocated to the upper left corner of the “six pack” 
> extended key area, where the Insert key is normally located.
> 2.  There are 3 keys on either side of the spacebar, so you get a second CTRL 
> key.
> 3.  the Eject key is located to the right of the F12 key, same as on the MB 
> Air's keyboard.
> 4.  There are additional F-keys located above the six-pack area and the 
> NumPad area.  I have never found a use for these keys.
> 
> You can of course turn on VO’s keyboard help to explore the keyboard.
> If you connect the USB keyboard to the Mac mini with the included USB to  
> Lightning cable, it will automatically pair.  Same is true for a bluetooth 
> mouse.
> 
> HTH
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 28, 2020, at 05:37, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi, Bard:
> 
> I got the full ekyboard with numeric keypad. Despite that, it's still
> quite compellingly compact.
> 
> I'm not sure I know what all the keys are. Do you know of a writeup
> somewhere about the physical key layout?
> 
> Frankly, I have the same question about the Mini itself. I'm wondering
> whether I'll guess it's various ports. I imagine I'l get most of them,
> but there may still be some uncertainty. For instance, how does one turn
> it on?
> 
> When I got my Airbook back in 2014 I literally had to call a Mac using
> friend to say: "How do you turn this thing on?"
> 
> It also took me a bit to figure out how the power supply came apart and
> then back together in particular combinations.
> 
> Apple builds awesome hardware, but sometimes these details can be
> unclear to the uninitiated.
> 
> PS: Delivery is scheduled for next Friday, April 3. I've got my fingers
> crossed that it will be afternoon. I've medical appointments in the AM
> both Thursday and Friday I can't skip.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Janina
> 
> Brad Snyder writes:
>> Hi Janina,
>> 
>> Did you get the smaller (laptop layout) bluetooth keyboard or the full size 
>> model with NumPad.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 27, 2020, at 00:04, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hey, Matthew. I bet you forgot to mention a network connection? Surely
>> your Mini isn't off the grid? 
>> 
>> Just teasing you a little!
>> 
>> PS: My bluetooth keyboard arrived today. What an elegant unit. However,
>> I may not be comfortable with it as my main board, though I am likely to
>> pack it for travel on longer trips 

Re: A couple Terminal questions

[Greg Wocher]

Hello,
You might want to try the TDSR console screen reader for Mac. It makes working 
with the terminal a bit easier. It can be found at:
https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 

Greg Wocher

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 10:21 AM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> When working in Terminal and command line, is it possible to examine the 
> window content with Voiceover?  Say , ls -l command produces a list of files 
> in the directory I am in.  How can I examine each file and maybe even copy 
> their names to clipboard or details about them if I were to use the -l flag, 
> which would produce long information about each item.
> 
> Secondly, reading a book on Command Line, one of the shortcut techniques the 
> author teaches is to start typing the name of a directory to which one wishes 
> to change and then pressing tab, which would result in Terminal completing 
> the name or else giving a list of available names if there should be more 
> than one.  This doesn’t seem to work.  When I press the tab, I hear the 
> ominous bong bong.  So this technique doesn’t work.  Any thoughts on this?
> 
> andrew
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/BB072597-FDA8-4971-B666-361890504466%40me.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/0FFD2285-C62A-4115-B8FD-1DEE44486FA8%40gwocher.com.

A couple Terminal questions

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

When working in Terminal and command line, is it possible to examine the window 
content with Voiceover?  Say , ls -l command produces a list of files in the 
directory I am in.  How can I examine each file and maybe even copy their names 
to clipboard or details about them if I were to use the -l flag, which would 
produce long information about each item.

Secondly, reading a book on Command Line, one of the shortcut techniques the 
author teaches is to start typing the name of a directory to which one wishes 
to change and then pressing tab, which would result in Terminal completing the 
name or else giving a list of available names if there should be more than one. 
 This doesn’t seem to work.  When I press the tab, I hear the ominous bong 
bong.  So this technique doesn’t work.  Any thoughts on this?

andrew

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/BB072597-FDA8-4971-B666-361890504466%40me.com.

Re: Question please regarding the option-t time check

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Anytime, Maurice. I'm not as good as Bill, but I'm still here! 

Still miss that guy bunches. Hardly a week goes by I don't want to pick
up the phone and call Bill.

Best,

Janina

maurice mines writes:
> Yes I do live in California, but I do have a memory. I don’t think I’ll ever 
> forget the person who taught me UNIX/Linux I am trying to decide which 
> distribution I’m going to install in the virtual machine on my Mac. It’s 
> either going to be  Ubuntu, or talking arch  Lenox.
> 
> All the best smile. Your friend Maurice.
> Amateur callsign kd0iko.
> Note the text of my comments have been dictated to the computer by means of 
> dictation software. If there are errors and were there something you can’t 
> understand, please – me what my original intent was. I will do my very best 
> to try to clear up any misunderstandings.
> 
> 
> 
> > On Mar 28, 2020, at 23:50, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Ah, Maurice, that's about enough reason to move back to California, imo!
> > 
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > maurice mines writes:
> >> Dear Dave, slight correction here. California voters voted to leave at 
> >> daylight savings time and a statewide ballot measure in 2018. The state 
> >> must apply to the federal government to leave daylight savings time and/or 
> >> standard time and pick one time. But the boat, ballot measure at that time 
> >> stated clearly that the state wished to leave daylight savings time. I 
> >> don’t know about Oregon, and I don’t know about Washington state. I can 
> >> only tell you what we voted on in 2018. For the record the measure passed 
> >> by a two to one margin.
> >> 
> >> Sincerely Maurice Mines.
> >> 
> >>> On Mar 27, 2020, at 20:42, Dave Carlson  >>> > wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> We in Washington, Oregon, and California are seriously considering 
> >>> applying to the Federal Government to stop the madness and just go to 
> >>> Daylight Savings Time all year round. I’m looking forward to it happening 
> >>> in my lifetime.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Dave Carlson
> >>> Engineer, Pioneer, Farfar, Woodworker, Musician, and Oregonian
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> -- 
> >>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> >>> Visionaries list.
> >>> 
> >>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
> >>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
> >>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> >>> 
> >>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
> >>> at: mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
> >>> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> >>> 
> >>> --- 
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> >>> "MacVisionaries" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> >>> .
> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/5C471548-F843-4DA5-B596-D195DF3524FC%40sbcglobal.net
> >>>  
> >>> .
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> >> Visionaries list.
> >> 
> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
> >> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
> >> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> >> 
> >> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
> >> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> >> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> >> 
> >> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> >> --- 
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> >> "MacVisionaries" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/9573CFEC-7362-4E97-B1EA-3EF3DF1371BC%40maurice-amines.com.
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Janina Sajka
> > 
> > Linux Foundation Fellow
> > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org
> > 
> > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> > 
> > -- 

Re: Mac Mini Now On Order

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Thanks again, Brad!

I can be such a dunce sometimes! Good thing I still had the packaging
the keyboard came in! 

Best,

Janina

Brad Snyder writes:
> The bluetooth keyboard is powered by an internal rechargeable battery.  A 
> Lightning to USB-A cable is included with the keyboard for charging, just 
> like an iPhone.  This cable can also be used for initial pairing with the mac 
> mini.
> The Lightning port is located dead-center along the top edge of the keyboard. 
>  The little slide switch you feel is used to turn power on/off.
> 
> If you purchased a Magic Bluetooth mouse, it also comes with a Lightning to 
> USB-A cable for charging and initial pairing.  The Lightning port on the 
> mouse is on the bottom side of the mouse.  It is hard to find, but it is 
> located a little forward of center.  There may also be a power switch on the 
> mouse, but I’m not sure where it is.  My wife has one of these units, but I 
> don’t use one myself because I prefer to use a trackpad.
> 
> Battery life on both is pretty good.  Depending on your use, you may only 
> need to charge the keyboard and mouse about once a month, of course your 
> mileage may vary.
> 
> HTH
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 29, 2020, at 01:46, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Brad. This is incredibly valuable info to me.
> 
> 
> Do you know about powering the bluetooth keyboard? I would imagine
> there's some kind of batteries involved, but I can find nothing that
> feels like a compartment for them. I feel the tiny little slide switch
> on the upper right hand outer corner. But, my Airbook doesn't offer the
> keyboard for pairing whichever slide position I have the keyboard switch
> in.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Janina
> 
> Brad Snyder writes:
> > Janina,
> > 
> > The Mac mini’s power button is on the right rear corner.  You should have 
> > no trouble finding it.
> > 
> > I use an older Mac USB keyboard from 2006 on my mini, but my wife has a 
> > newer version on her iMac with the same layout as the newer full-size 
> > bluetooth keyboards.
> > The Qwerty area is pretty much the same as on your MB Air, with a few 
> > exceptions:
> > 1.  The Fn key is relocated to the upper left corner of the “six pack” 
> > extended key area, where the Insert key is normally located.
> > 2.  There are 3 keys on either side of the spacebar, so you get a second 
> > CTRL key.
> > 3.  the Eject key is located to the right of the F12 key, same as on the MB 
> > Air's keyboard.
> > 4.  There are additional F-keys located above the six-pack area and the 
> > NumPad area.  I have never found a use for these keys.
> > 
> > You can of course turn on VO’s keyboard help to explore the keyboard.
> > If you connect the USB keyboard to the Mac mini with the included USB to  
> > Lightning cable, it will automatically pair.  Same is true for a bluetooth 
> > mouse.
> > 
> > HTH
> > 
> > - Brad -
> > 
> > 
> > On Mar 28, 2020, at 05:37, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi, Bard:
> > 
> > I got the full ekyboard with numeric keypad. Despite that, it's still
> > quite compellingly compact.
> > 
> > I'm not sure I know what all the keys are. Do you know of a writeup
> > somewhere about the physical key layout?
> > 
> > Frankly, I have the same question about the Mini itself. I'm wondering
> > whether I'll guess it's various ports. I imagine I'l get most of them,
> > but there may still be some uncertainty. For instance, how does one turn
> > it on?
> > 
> > When I got my Airbook back in 2014 I literally had to call a Mac using
> > friend to say: "How do you turn this thing on?"
> > 
> > It also took me a bit to figure out how the power supply came apart and
> > then back together in particular combinations.
> > 
> > Apple builds awesome hardware, but sometimes these details can be
> > unclear to the uninitiated.
> > 
> > PS: Delivery is scheduled for next Friday, April 3. I've got my fingers
> > crossed that it will be afternoon. I've medical appointments in the AM
> > both Thursday and Friday I can't skip.
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > Brad Snyder writes:
> >> Hi Janina,
> >> 
> >> Did you get the smaller (laptop layout) bluetooth keyboard or the full 
> >> size model with NumPad.
> >> 
> >> - Brad -
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Mar 27, 2020, at 00:04, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hey, Matthew. I bet you forgot to mention a network connection? Surely
> >> your Mini isn't off the grid? 
> >> 
> >> Just teasing you a little!
> >> 
> >> PS: My bluetooth keyboard arrived today. What an elegant unit. However,
> >> I may not be comfortable with it as my main board, though I am likely to
> >> pack it for travel on longer trips (when travel is again routine).
> >> 
> >> Best,
> >> 
> >> Janina
> >> 
> >> matthew dyer writes:
> >>> Brad,
> >>> 
> >>> I hhsave nothing connected at the moment.  Just a wierles apple keyboard 
> >>> and my external HD for backups.  HTH.
> >>> 
> >>> Matthew
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> 

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Karen:

It would be the same as you're already familiar with from other Linux
situations. It's just the plain old Linux console, so the two likely
options are lynx the cat or links the chain.

Of course, you still have the option to Alt-TAB your way to the Windows
desktop for Chrome, Firefox, or Edge.

Best,

Janina

Karen Lewellen writes:
> Enjoying this exchange.
> I am wondering what browsers are used in  either this command line
> environment, or the one you illustrated for Andrew?
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> 
> > Hi, Simon:
> > 
> > Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device
> > drivers either. Just the command line environment.
> > 
> > Learn more here:
> > 
> > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
> > 
> > 
> > Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.
> > 
> > Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that
> > many people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
> > Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X
> > Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a
> > boring utility, why would I ever want it?
> > 
> > Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and
> > it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix)
> > environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point
> > and click environments.
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > > Hang on what?
> > > 
> > >  Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> > > 
> > > That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install
> > > 
> > > How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who 
> > > really hasn't touched linux in years?
> > > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> > > Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
> > > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> > > separate machine? Pls answer off list
> > > 
> > > Hi, Simon:
> > > 
> > > I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't 
> > > know that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't 
> > > actually know.
> > > 
> > > The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by 
> > > trying. The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up 
> > > and start over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain 
> > > knowledge. Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, 
> > > start over. You lose nothing.
> > > 
> > > It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
> > > machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.
> > > 
> > > Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now 
> > > supporting running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best 
> > > supported of them is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell 
> > > to ssh into my Linux server. Works well these days now that someone fixed 
> > > NVDA focus in the terminal.
> > > 
> > > Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
> > > application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
> > > Here's an example to install mplayer:
> > > 
> > > On Debian and Ubuntu:
> > > apt-get install mplayer
> > > 
> > > On Arch (which uses pacman):
> > > 
> > > pacman -S mplayer
> > > Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
> > > yay -S mplayer
> > > 
> > > On Fedora:
> > > dnf install mplayer
> > > 
> > > The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not 
> > > be all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash 
> > > (or zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but 
> > > configuration, software management, and such is as different among Linux 
> > > flavors as on Mac (where the terminal is essentially BSD Unix).
> > > 
> > > hth
> > > 
> > > Janina
> > > 
> > > Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > > > Hi Janina,
> > > > 
> > > > Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested,
> > > > 
> > > > What about ubuntu these days?
> > > > 
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Friday, 27 March 2020 6:55 PM
> > > > To: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
> > > > 
> > > > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a
> > > > separate machine? Pls answer off list
> > > > 
> > > > OK, Andrew, I understand your situation. I'll give you my advice. But, 
> > > > as you've undoubtedly already learned, advice is cheap and various 
> > > > people will be passionate about their views.
> > > > 
> > > > So, let me give you a first things first approach as my top suggestion.
> > > > Keep it simple, and keep the main thing the main thing. Linux is a 
> > > > "some assembly" 

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

All right, Simon. I had a feeling you were a man after my own heart!


Power Shell rocks, actually. I like how it's database driven. That's a
solid step up over bash and zsh.

But, like everything else, it only slows you down if you haven't learned
enoth commands to move fast, and I haven't.

Installing Ubuntu under Microsoft WSL will give you a powerful cli with
NVDA (or whichever) as your screen reader.

NVDA wasn't working all that well last September, but the next NVDA
upgrade fixed things up nicely. Someone via Google Summer of Code pushed
some nice enhancements to NVDA's support for the terminal, and the WSL
Ubuntu benefits.

PS: I can't get clipboard access from it. Might be me, or might be NVDA.
I don't know. Mostly, I simply get around that by redirecting output
into a file.

Best,

Janina


Simon A Fogarty writes:
> Hi Janina,
> 
> Yeah I really like the command line interface,
> 
> I've got former colleagues who can't work without a mouse which I think is 
> stupid but hey they's the ones with the issues.
> 
> I use powershell when I can as it's both nicer and more powerful and in a lot 
> of cases quicker to use.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries  
> Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 7:34 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate 
> machine? Pls answer off list
> 
> Hi, Simon:
> 
> Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device 
> drivers either. Just the command line environment.
> 
> Learn more here:
> 
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
> 
> 
> Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.
> 
> Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that many 
> people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
> Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X Utilities 
> folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a boring 
> utility, why would I ever want it?
> 
> Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and it's a 
> powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix) environments. 
> That's where the power users hang out, not in the point and click 
> environments.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Janina
> 
> Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > Hang on what?
> > 
> >  Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> > 
> > That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install
> > 
> > How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who 
> > really hasn't touched linux in years?
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> > 
> > Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
> > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> > separate machine? Pls answer off list
> > 
> > Hi, Simon:
> > 
> > I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know 
> > that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't 
> > actually know.
> > 
> > The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by 
> > trying. The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and 
> > start over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain 
> > knowledge. Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, start 
> > over. You lose nothing.
> > 
> > It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
> > machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.
> > 
> > Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now 
> > supporting running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best 
> > supported of them is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to 
> > ssh into my Linux server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA 
> > focus in the terminal.
> > 
> > Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
> > application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
> > Here's an example to install mplayer:
> > 
> > On Debian and Ubuntu:
> > apt-get install mplayer
> > 
> > On Arch (which uses pacman):
> > 
> > pacman -S mplayer
> > Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
> > yay -S mplayer
> > 
> > On Fedora:
> > dnf install mplayer
> > 
> > The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be 
> > all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or 
> > zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, 
> > software management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac 
> > (where the terminal is essentially BSD Unix).
> > 
> > hth
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > > Hi Janina,
> > > 
> > > Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested,
> > > 
> > > What about ubuntu these days?
> > > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: 'Janina 

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Hi, Simon:

Absolutely. You don't get the desktop version this way in any case. All
those graphical widgets aren't supported. They didn't build that much of
a virtual machine environment. Only the command line stuff, which is
another meaning of "server" anyway. And, not even all of those as you
can't play audio from an Ubuntu session under Windows 10. They didn't
build those driver interfaces, either.

I say go for it. You can always back it out if it doesn't work out for
some reason.

And, the choice you get via the Microsoft WSL isn't between server and
desktop, it's between specific versions of Ubuntu. I choose the generic
Ubuntu, meaning keep the updates coming, baby. I'm not locking in on a
particular version for some developer-style reason.

Best,

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:
> Hi Janina,
> 
> That might be the way to get around it,
> 
> I'd prefer the commandline interface if I could as it's something I'm more 
> comfortable with.
> 
>  Interesting twist on this though,
> 
> Could you install the ubuntu server os version of the operating system rather 
> than the desktop?
> 
> An from what I've been told the server version is pretty much the same as the 
> desktp but without the built in gui interface and everything already done for 
> you.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries  
> Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 7:34 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate 
> machine? Pls answer off list
> 
> Hi, Simon:
> 
> Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device 
> drivers either. Just the command line environment.
> 
> Learn more here:
> 
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10
> 
> 
> Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.
> 
> Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that many 
> people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
> Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X Utilities 
> folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a boring 
> utility, why would I ever want it?
> 
> Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and it's a 
> powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix) environments. 
> That's where the power users hang out, not in the point and click 
> environments.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Janina
> 
> Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > Hang on what?
> > 
> >  Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> > 
> > That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install
> > 
> > How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who 
> > really hasn't touched linux in years?
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> > 
> > Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
> > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> > separate machine? Pls answer off list
> > 
> > Hi, Simon:
> > 
> > I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know 
> > that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't 
> > actually know.
> > 
> > The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by 
> > trying. The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and 
> > start over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain 
> > knowledge. Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, start 
> > over. You lose nothing.
> > 
> > It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
> > machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.
> > 
> > Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now 
> > supporting running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best 
> > supported of them is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to 
> > ssh into my Linux server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA 
> > focus in the terminal.
> > 
> > Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
> > application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
> > Here's an example to install mplayer:
> > 
> > On Debian and Ubuntu:
> > apt-get install mplayer
> > 
> > On Arch (which uses pacman):
> > 
> > pacman -S mplayer
> > Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
> > yay -S mplayer
> > 
> > On Fedora:
> > dnf install mplayer
> > 
> > The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be 
> > all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or 
> > zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, 
> > software management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac 
> > (where the terminal is essentially BSD Unix).
> > 
> > hth
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > > Hi Janina,
> > > 
> > > Your knowledge and expertise has got 

RE: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

[Simon A Fogarty]

Hi Janina,

That might be the way to get around it,

I'd prefer the commandline interface if I could as it's something I'm more 
comfortable with.

 Interesting twist on this though,

Could you install the ubuntu server os version of the operating system rather 
than the desktop?

An from what I've been told the server version is pretty much the same as the 
desktp but without the built in gui interface and everything already done for 
you.

-Original Message-
From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries  
Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 7:34 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate 
machine? Pls answer off list

Hi, Simon:

Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device drivers 
either. Just the command line environment.

Learn more here:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10


Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.

Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that many 
people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X Utilities 
folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a boring utility, 
why would I ever want it?

Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and it's a 
powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix) environments. That's 
where the power users hang out, not in the point and click environments.

Best,

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:
> Hang on what?
> 
>  Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> 
> That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install
> 
> How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who 
> really hasn't touched linux in years?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> 
> Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> separate machine? Pls answer off list
> 
> Hi, Simon:
> 
> I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know 
> that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't actually 
> know.
> 
> The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by trying. 
> The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and start 
> over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain knowledge. 
> Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, start over. You 
> lose nothing.
> 
> It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
> machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.
> 
> Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now supporting 
> running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best supported of them 
> is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to ssh into my Linux 
> server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA focus in the 
> terminal.
> 
> Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
> application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
> Here's an example to install mplayer:
> 
> On Debian and Ubuntu:
> apt-get install mplayer
> 
> On Arch (which uses pacman):
> 
> pacman -S mplayer
> Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
> yay -S mplayer
> 
> On Fedora:
> dnf install mplayer
> 
> The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be 
> all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or 
> zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, 
> software management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac 
> (where the terminal is essentially BSD Unix).
> 
> hth
> 
> Janina
> 
> Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > Hi Janina,
> > 
> > Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested,
> > 
> > What about ubuntu these days?
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> > 
> > Sent: Friday, 27 March 2020 6:55 PM
> > To: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> > separate machine? Pls answer off list
> > 
> > OK, Andrew, I understand your situation. I'll give you my advice. But, as 
> > you've undoubtedly already learned, advice is cheap and various people will 
> > be passionate about their views.
> > 
> > So, let me give you a first things first approach as my top suggestion.
> > Keep it simple, and keep the main thing the main thing. Linux is a "some 
> > assembly" required kind of environment. If you break it, you get to keep 
> > both pieces.
> > 
> > So, forget vmware or any other virtualization. Not because they're 
> > unworthy, they're perfect for their task, but they're complicating factors 
> > that will only frustrate you. After you have experience and some 

RE: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

[Simon A Fogarty]

Hi Janina,

Yeah I really like the command line interface,

I've got former colleagues who can't work without a mouse which I think is 
stupid but hey they's the ones with the issues.

I use powershell when I can as it's both nicer and more powerful and in a lot 
of cases quicker to use.



-Original Message-
From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries  
Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 7:34 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate 
machine? Pls answer off list

Hi, Simon:

Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device drivers 
either. Just the command line environment.

Learn more here:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10


Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.

Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that many 
people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X Utilities 
folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a boring utility, 
why would I ever want it?

Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and it's a 
powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix) environments. That's 
where the power users hang out, not in the point and click environments.

Best,

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:
> Hang on what?
> 
>  Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> 
> That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install
> 
> How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who 
> really hasn't touched linux in years?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> 
> Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> separate machine? Pls answer off list
> 
> Hi, Simon:
> 
> I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know 
> that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't actually 
> know.
> 
> The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by trying. 
> The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and start 
> over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain knowledge. 
> Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, start over. You 
> lose nothing.
> 
> It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
> machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.
> 
> Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now supporting 
> running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best supported of them 
> is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to ssh into my Linux 
> server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA focus in the 
> terminal.
> 
> Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
> application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
> Here's an example to install mplayer:
> 
> On Debian and Ubuntu:
> apt-get install mplayer
> 
> On Arch (which uses pacman):
> 
> pacman -S mplayer
> Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
> yay -S mplayer
> 
> On Fedora:
> dnf install mplayer
> 
> The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be 
> all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or 
> zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, 
> software management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac 
> (where the terminal is essentially BSD Unix).
> 
> hth
> 
> Janina
> 
> Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > Hi Janina,
> > 
> > Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested,
> > 
> > What about ubuntu these days?
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> > 
> > Sent: Friday, 27 March 2020 6:55 PM
> > To: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> > separate machine? Pls answer off list
> > 
> > OK, Andrew, I understand your situation. I'll give you my advice. But, as 
> > you've undoubtedly already learned, advice is cheap and various people will 
> > be passionate about their views.
> > 
> > So, let me give you a first things first approach as my top suggestion.
> > Keep it simple, and keep the main thing the main thing. Linux is a "some 
> > assembly" required kind of environment. If you break it, you get to keep 
> > both pieces.
> > 
> > So, forget vmware or any other virtualization. Not because they're 
> > unworthy, they're perfect for their task, but they're complicating factors 
> > that will only frustrate you. After you have experience and some knowledge, 
> > you can always go back there. But learning linux management under some vm 
> > isn't the next thing, it's getting a unfctioning linux in the first 

Re: Mac Mini Now On Order

[Brad Snyder]

The bluetooth keyboard is powered by an internal rechargeable battery.  A 
Lightning to USB-A cable is included with the keyboard for charging, just like 
an iPhone.  This cable can also be used for initial pairing with the mac mini.
The Lightning port is located dead-center along the top edge of the keyboard.  
The little slide switch you feel is used to turn power on/off.

If you purchased a Magic Bluetooth mouse, it also comes with a Lightning to 
USB-A cable for charging and initial pairing.  The Lightning port on the mouse 
is on the bottom side of the mouse.  It is hard to find, but it is located a 
little forward of center.  There may also be a power switch on the mouse, but 
I’m not sure where it is.  My wife has one of these units, but I don’t use one 
myself because I prefer to use a trackpad.

Battery life on both is pretty good.  Depending on your use, you may only need 
to charge the keyboard and mouse about once a month, of course your mileage may 
vary.

HTH

- Brad -


On Mar 29, 2020, at 01:46, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Thanks, Brad. This is incredibly valuable info to me.


Do you know about powering the bluetooth keyboard? I would imagine
there's some kind of batteries involved, but I can find nothing that
feels like a compartment for them. I feel the tiny little slide switch
on the upper right hand outer corner. But, my Airbook doesn't offer the
keyboard for pairing whichever slide position I have the keyboard switch
in.

Thanks!

Janina

Brad Snyder writes:
> Janina,
> 
> The Mac mini’s power button is on the right rear corner.  You should have no 
> trouble finding it.
> 
> I use an older Mac USB keyboard from 2006 on my mini, but my wife has a newer 
> version on her iMac with the same layout as the newer full-size bluetooth 
> keyboards.
> The Qwerty area is pretty much the same as on your MB Air, with a few 
> exceptions:
> 1.  The Fn key is relocated to the upper left corner of the “six pack” 
> extended key area, where the Insert key is normally located.
> 2.  There are 3 keys on either side of the spacebar, so you get a second CTRL 
> key.
> 3.  the Eject key is located to the right of the F12 key, same as on the MB 
> Air's keyboard.
> 4.  There are additional F-keys located above the six-pack area and the 
> NumPad area.  I have never found a use for these keys.
> 
> You can of course turn on VO’s keyboard help to explore the keyboard.
> If you connect the USB keyboard to the Mac mini with the included USB to  
> Lightning cable, it will automatically pair.  Same is true for a bluetooth 
> mouse.
> 
> HTH
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 28, 2020, at 05:37, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Bard:
> 
> I got the full ekyboard with numeric keypad. Despite that, it's still
> quite compellingly compact.
> 
> I'm not sure I know what all the keys are. Do you know of a writeup
> somewhere about the physical key layout?
> 
> Frankly, I have the same question about the Mini itself. I'm wondering
> whether I'll guess it's various ports. I imagine I'l get most of them,
> but there may still be some uncertainty. For instance, how does one turn
> it on?
> 
> When I got my Airbook back in 2014 I literally had to call a Mac using
> friend to say: "How do you turn this thing on?"
> 
> It also took me a bit to figure out how the power supply came apart and
> then back together in particular combinations.
> 
> Apple builds awesome hardware, but sometimes these details can be
> unclear to the uninitiated.
> 
> PS: Delivery is scheduled for next Friday, April 3. I've got my fingers
> crossed that it will be afternoon. I've medical appointments in the AM
> both Thursday and Friday I can't skip.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Janina
> 
> Brad Snyder writes:
>> Hi Janina,
>> 
>> Did you get the smaller (laptop layout) bluetooth keyboard or the full size 
>> model with NumPad.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 27, 2020, at 00:04, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hey, Matthew. I bet you forgot to mention a network connection? Surely
>> your Mini isn't off the grid? 
>> 
>> Just teasing you a little!
>> 
>> PS: My bluetooth keyboard arrived today. What an elegant unit. However,
>> I may not be comfortable with it as my main board, though I am likely to
>> pack it for travel on longer trips (when travel is again routine).
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Janina
>> 
>> matthew dyer writes:
>>> Brad,
>>> 
>>> I hhsave nothing connected at the moment.  Just a wierles apple keyboard 
>>> and my external HD for backups.  HTH.
>>> 
>>> Matthew
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 
>>> 10
>>> 
>>> From: Brad Snyder
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 11:16 AM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Mac Mini Now On Order
>>> 
>>> To clarify, you are using a 2018 Mac mini without a monitor.  Are you using 
>>> a DVI or VGA to HDMI adapter plugged 

Re: Question please regarding the option-t time check

[maurice mines]

Yes I do live in California, but I do have a memory. I don’t think I’ll ever 
forget the person who taught me UNIX/Linux I am trying to decide which 
distribution I’m going to install in the virtual machine on my Mac. It’s either 
going to be  Ubuntu, or talking arch  Lenox.

All the best smile. Your friend Maurice.
Amateur callsign kd0iko.
Note the text of my comments have been dictated to the computer by means of 
dictation software. If there are errors and were there something you can’t 
understand, please – me what my original intent was. I will do my very best to 
try to clear up any misunderstandings.



> On Mar 28, 2020, at 23:50, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ah, Maurice, that's about enough reason to move back to California, imo!
> 
> 
> Janina
> 
> maurice mines writes:
>> Dear Dave, slight correction here. California voters voted to leave at 
>> daylight savings time and a statewide ballot measure in 2018. The state must 
>> apply to the federal government to leave daylight savings time and/or 
>> standard time and pick one time. But the boat, ballot measure at that time 
>> stated clearly that the state wished to leave daylight savings time. I don’t 
>> know about Oregon, and I don’t know about Washington state. I can only tell 
>> you what we voted on in 2018. For the record the measure passed by a two to 
>> one margin.
>> 
>> Sincerely Maurice Mines.
>> 
>>> On Mar 27, 2020, at 20:42, Dave Carlson >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> We in Washington, Oregon, and California are seriously considering applying 
>>> to the Federal Government to stop the madness and just go to Daylight 
>>> Savings Time all year round. I’m looking forward to it happening in my 
>>> lifetime.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dave Carlson
>>> Engineer, Pioneer, Farfar, Woodworker, Musician, and Oregonian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
>>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>> 
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/5C471548-F843-4DA5-B596-D195DF3524FC%40sbcglobal.net
>>>  
>>> .
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/9573CFEC-7362-4E97-B1EA-3EF3DF1371BC%40maurice-amines.com.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka
> 
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org
> 
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures  http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner 

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

[Karen Lewellen]

Enjoying this exchange.
I am wondering what browsers are used in  either this command line 
environment, or the one you illustrated for Andrew?




On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:


Hi, Simon:

Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device
drivers either. Just the command line environment.

Learn more here:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10


Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.

Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that
many people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X
Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a
boring utility, why would I ever want it?

Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and
it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix)
environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point
and click environments.

Best,

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:

Hang on what?

 Ubuntu will install in to windows ?

That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install

How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who really 
hasn't touched linux in years?

-Original Message-
From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate 
machine? Pls answer off list

Hi, Simon:

I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know that 
for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't actually know.

The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by trying. 
The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and start over 
on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain knowledge. Unhappy with 
the choices you made installing? No problem, start over. You lose nothing.

It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.

Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now supporting 
running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best supported of them 
is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to ssh into my Linux 
server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA focus in the terminal.

Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
Here's an example to install mplayer:

On Debian and Ubuntu:
apt-get install mplayer

On Arch (which uses pacman):

pacman -S mplayer
Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
yay -S mplayer

On Fedora:
dnf install mplayer

The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be all 
that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or zsh) 
commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, software 
management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac (where the 
terminal is essentially BSD Unix).

hth

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:

Hi Janina,

Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested,

What about ubuntu these days?

-Original Message-
From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries

Sent: Friday, 27 March 2020 6:55 PM
To: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries

Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a
separate machine? Pls answer off list

OK, Andrew, I understand your situation. I'll give you my advice. But, as 
you've undoubtedly already learned, advice is cheap and various people will be 
passionate about their views.

So, let me give you a first things first approach as my top suggestion.
Keep it simple, and keep the main thing the main thing. Linux is a "some 
assembly" required kind of environment. If you break it, you get to keep both pieces.

So, forget vmware or any other virtualization. Not because they're unworthy, 
they're perfect for their task, but they're complicating factors that will only 
frustrate you. After you have experience and some knowledge, you can always go 
back there. But learning linux management under some vm isn't the next thing, 
it's getting a unfctioning linux in the first place. I can't stress this point 
enough.

That seems to leave us with a 13 year old laptop. Forget about running Orca or 
any graphical Linux desktop on 13 year old hardware. It ain't happening--not 
with your level of Linux skills (no offense intended).

Could I, with my decades of Linux experience get an accessible desktop working 
on that machine? Maybe, but not very likely. So, a word to the wise, and all 
that.

You can expect to run the text console environment, though, and that's where 
the real power and attractiveness of Linux resides, actually. Yes, Orca is cool 
and 

Re: Question please regarding the option-t time check

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Ah, Maurice, that's about enough reason to move back to California, imo!


Janina

maurice mines writes:
> Dear Dave, slight correction here. California voters voted to leave at 
> daylight savings time and a statewide ballot measure in 2018. The state must 
> apply to the federal government to leave daylight savings time and/or 
> standard time and pick one time. But the boat, ballot measure at that time 
> stated clearly that the state wished to leave daylight savings time. I don’t 
> know about Oregon, and I don’t know about Washington state. I can only tell 
> you what we voted on in 2018. For the record the measure passed by a two to 
> one margin.
> 
> Sincerely Maurice Mines.
> 
> > On Mar 27, 2020, at 20:42, Dave Carlson  > > wrote:
> > 
> > We in Washington, Oregon, and California are seriously considering applying 
> > to the Federal Government to stop the madness and just go to Daylight 
> > Savings Time all year round. I’m looking forward to it happening in my 
> > lifetime.
> > 
> > 
> > Dave Carlson
> > Engineer, Pioneer, Farfar, Woodworker, Musician, and Oregonian
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> > Visionaries list.
> >  
> > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
> > or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> >  
> > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> > mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
> > can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> >  
> > The archives for this list can be searched at:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> > 
> > --- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> > .
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/5C471548-F843-4DA5-B596-D195DF3524FC%40sbcglobal.net
> >  
> > .
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/9573CFEC-7362-4E97-B1EA-3EF3DF1371BC%40maurice-amines.com.

-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200329065026.GC2206%40rednote.net.

Re: Mac Mini Now On Order

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Thanks, Brad. This is incredibly valuable info to me.


Do you know about powering the bluetooth keyboard? I would imagine
there's some kind of batteries involved, but I can find nothing that
feels like a compartment for them. I feel the tiny little slide switch
on the upper right hand outer corner. But, my Airbook doesn't offer the
keyboard for pairing whichever slide position I have the keyboard switch
in.

Thanks!

Janina

Brad Snyder writes:
> Janina,
> 
> The Mac mini’s power button is on the right rear corner.  You should have no 
> trouble finding it.
> 
> I use an older Mac USB keyboard from 2006 on my mini, but my wife has a newer 
> version on her iMac with the same layout as the newer full-size bluetooth 
> keyboards.
> The Qwerty area is pretty much the same as on your MB Air, with a few 
> exceptions:
> 1.  The Fn key is relocated to the upper left corner of the “six pack” 
> extended key area, where the Insert key is normally located.
> 2.  There are 3 keys on either side of the spacebar, so you get a second CTRL 
> key.
> 3.  the Eject key is located to the right of the F12 key, same as on the MB 
> Air's keyboard.
> 4.  There are additional F-keys located above the six-pack area and the 
> NumPad area.  I have never found a use for these keys.
> 
> You can of course turn on VO’s keyboard help to explore the keyboard.
> If you connect the USB keyboard to the Mac mini with the included USB to  
> Lightning cable, it will automatically pair.  Same is true for a bluetooth 
> mouse.
> 
> HTH
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Mar 28, 2020, at 05:37, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Bard:
> 
> I got the full ekyboard with numeric keypad. Despite that, it's still
> quite compellingly compact.
> 
> I'm not sure I know what all the keys are. Do you know of a writeup
> somewhere about the physical key layout?
> 
> Frankly, I have the same question about the Mini itself. I'm wondering
> whether I'll guess it's various ports. I imagine I'l get most of them,
> but there may still be some uncertainty. For instance, how does one turn
> it on?
> 
> When I got my Airbook back in 2014 I literally had to call a Mac using
> friend to say: "How do you turn this thing on?"
> 
> It also took me a bit to figure out how the power supply came apart and
> then back together in particular combinations.
> 
> Apple builds awesome hardware, but sometimes these details can be
> unclear to the uninitiated.
> 
> PS: Delivery is scheduled for next Friday, April 3. I've got my fingers
> crossed that it will be afternoon. I've medical appointments in the AM
> both Thursday and Friday I can't skip.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Janina
> 
> Brad Snyder writes:
> > Hi Janina,
> > 
> > Did you get the smaller (laptop layout) bluetooth keyboard or the full size 
> > model with NumPad.
> > 
> > - Brad -
> > 
> > 
> > On Mar 27, 2020, at 00:04, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Hey, Matthew. I bet you forgot to mention a network connection? Surely
> > your Mini isn't off the grid? 
> > 
> > Just teasing you a little!
> > 
> > PS: My bluetooth keyboard arrived today. What an elegant unit. However,
> > I may not be comfortable with it as my main board, though I am likely to
> > pack it for travel on longer trips (when travel is again routine).
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > matthew dyer writes:
> >> Brad,
> >> 
> >> I hhsave nothing connected at the moment.  Just a wierles apple keyboard 
> >> and my external HD for backups.  HTH.
> >> 
> >> Matthew
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 
> >> 10
> >> 
> >> From: Brad Snyder
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 11:16 AM
> >> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: Mac Mini Now On Order
> >> 
> >> To clarify, you are using a 2018 Mac mini without a monitor.  Are you 
> >> using a DVI or VGA to HDMI adapter plugged into the HDMI port to simulate 
> >> the presents of a monitor?
> >> I have been under the belief that either a monitor must be connected to a 
> >> Mac mini, or an adapter must be plugged into the HDMI port to simulate the 
> >> presents of a monitor.  I have been told this was the case on 2012 and 
> >> 2014 minis.  Perhaps this is no longer the case with the 2018 model.
> >> - Brad -
> >> 
> >> On Mar 25, 2020, at 09:48, matthew dyer 
> >> mailto:ilovecountrymusic...@outlook.com>>
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> Alsa, a slite correction, you do not need to connect a monitor.  I am 
> >> using a mac mini 2018 just fine without one.  As for a usb keyboard, yes 
> >> you should be fine.  The windows key is your command key and your ault key 
> >> is your opsion key.  Outside of that, it will work.
> >> 
> >> Matthew
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Sent from 
> >> 

Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Hi, Simon:

Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device
drivers either. Just the command line environment.

Learn more here:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10


Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work.

Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that
many people don't grok the import of command line interface only.
Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X
Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a
boring utility, why would I ever want it?

Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and
it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix)
environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point
and click environments.

Best,

Janina

Simon A Fogarty writes:
> Hang on what?
> 
>  Ubuntu will install in to windows ?
> 
> That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install 
> 
> How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who 
> really hasn't touched linux in years?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries  
> Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate 
> machine? Pls answer off list
> 
> Hi, Simon:
> 
> I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know 
> that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't actually 
> know.
> 
> The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by trying. 
> The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and start 
> over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain knowledge. 
> Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, start over. You 
> lose nothing.
> 
> It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that 
> machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files.
> 
> Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now supporting 
> running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best supported of them 
> is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to ssh into my Linux 
> server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA focus in the 
> terminal.
> 
> Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and 
> application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software.
> Here's an example to install mplayer:
> 
> On Debian and Ubuntu:
> apt-get install mplayer
> 
> On Arch (which uses pacman):
> 
> pacman -S mplayer
> Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay:
> yay -S mplayer
> 
> On Fedora:
> dnf install mplayer
> 
> The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be 
> all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or 
> zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, 
> software management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac 
> (where the terminal is essentially BSD Unix).
> 
> hth
> 
> Janina
> 
> Simon A Fogarty writes:
> > Hi Janina,
> > 
> > Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested,
> > 
> > What about ubuntu these days?
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> > 
> > Sent: Friday, 27 March 2020 6:55 PM
> > To: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a 
> > separate machine? Pls answer off list
> > 
> > OK, Andrew, I understand your situation. I'll give you my advice. But, as 
> > you've undoubtedly already learned, advice is cheap and various people will 
> > be passionate about their views.
> > 
> > So, let me give you a first things first approach as my top suggestion.
> > Keep it simple, and keep the main thing the main thing. Linux is a "some 
> > assembly" required kind of environment. If you break it, you get to keep 
> > both pieces.
> > 
> > So, forget vmware or any other virtualization. Not because they're 
> > unworthy, they're perfect for their task, but they're complicating factors 
> > that will only frustrate you. After you have experience and some knowledge, 
> > you can always go back there. But learning linux management under some vm 
> > isn't the next thing, it's getting a unfctioning linux in the first place. 
> > I can't stress this point enough.
> > 
> > That seems to leave us with a 13 year old laptop. Forget about running Orca 
> > or any graphical Linux desktop on 13 year old hardware. It ain't 
> > happening--not with your level of Linux skills (no offense intended).
> > 
> > Could I, with my decades of Linux experience get an accessible desktop 
> > working on that machine? Maybe, but not very likely. So, a word to the 
> > wise, and all that.
> > 
> > You can expect to run the text console environment, though, and that's 
> > where