RE: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
Is there some specific reason why instructions tell to select CPU-transparency in the devkits when creating a i386 target? I think that shouldn't be needed, but it should cause any problems either since no CPU-transparency method is selected. No. It really should not be needed. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
Hi Klassjan, On 11/30/06, *Carlos Guerreiro* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Hildon Application Framework that is being polished in Herring will be used in the next major 3.0 release of Maemo which will be called Bora. By porting your application to Herring and testing it in the Herring environment you can cover a lot the ground to port it to Bora. Since you state applications have to be ported to Maemo 3, will Maemo 3 be backward compatible with Maemo 2.x applications? No. The gap is not large but it is non-trivial. However, some simple applications will work unmodified. We are working on documenting the changes and on a porting guide. Stay tuned. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On 11/30/06, Carlos Guerreiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Klassjan, Since you state applications have to be ported to Maemo 3, will Maemo 3 be backward compatible with Maemo 2.x applications? [snip] We are working on documenting the changes and on a porting guide. Stay tuned. How far off is Bora? If it's next week, there's little point in continuing to port existing applications; if it's 6 months, then I'll carry on :-) Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Flegg schreef: On 11/30/06, Carlos Guerreiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Klassjan, Since you state applications have to be ported to Maemo 3, will Maemo 3 be backward compatible with Maemo 2.x applications? [snip] We are working on documenting the changes and on a porting guide. Stay tuned. How far off is Bora? If it's next week, there's little point in continuing to port existing applications; if it's 6 months, then I'll carry on :-) You mean like the 'Roadmap' we both have been asking for in the past? regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFbrLVMkyGM64RGpERAkrAAKCZAC6E0uNaxbvVo8PYALQEQhmA5QCgvA8I YJ/GHaibKo3NxRsqAIgOiY8= =er+W -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
Andrew Flegg schreef: On 11/30/06, Carlos Guerreiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Klassjan, Since you state applications have to be ported to Maemo 3, will Maemo 3 be backward compatible with Maemo 2.x applications? [snip] We are working on documenting the changes and on a porting guide. Stay tuned. How far off is Bora? If it's next week, there's little point in continuing to port existing applications; if it's 6 months, then I'll carry on :-) Probably a month or so after they announce the 870.. You mean like the 'Roadmap' we both have been asking for in the past? You mean the one that Nokia can't comment on? Peter (who's now running off to hide)... :-D ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On 11/30/06, Koen Kooi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew Flegg schreef: How far off is Bora? If it's next week, there's little point in continuing to port existing applications; if it's 6 months, then I'll carry on :-) You mean like the 'Roadmap' we both have been asking for in the past? I didn't want to use the scary R word, since tko confirmed there is no public roadmap to be announced. Asking, at least, when the next Maemo release is going to be should be independent of that. If Maemo is to be an open and community participated effort, rather than just an open source Nokia SDK[1], the leaders of the project (i.e. Nokia) need to start informing the community of their plans for the platform. Carlos' original email is a part of that, however there's no meat as to what will change (apart from herring-type HAF-level changes), and nothing at all yet as to *how* things are changing. Cheers, Andrew [1] There's nothing wrong with an open source Nokia SDK - it's just not what Maemo is pitched as. -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On 11/30/06, Carlos Guerreiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Klassjan, Since you state applications have to be ported to Maemo 3, will Maemo 3 be backward compatible with Maemo 2.x applications? [snip] We are working on documenting the changes and on a porting guide. Stay tuned. How far off is Bora? If it's next week, there's little point in continuing to port existing applications; if it's 6 months, then I'll carry on :-) Something in between. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the target date for Bora. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On tor, 2006-11-30 at 10:36 +, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: [snip] If Maemo is to be an open and community participated effort, rather than just an open source Nokia SDK[1], the leaders of the project (i.e. Nokia) need to start informing the community of their plans for the platform. When did Linus last announce the release date of the next kernel (and actually follow it)? Ohhh, but I guess you don't regard that as an open and community participated effort either. =) [snip] Regards: David ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On 11/30/06, Carlos Guerreiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Andrew Flegg wrote: How far off is Bora? If it's next week, there's little point in continuing to port existing applications; if it's 6 months, then I'll carry on :-) Something in between. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the target date for Bora. OK, how about if existing Maemo end-user devices will be able to run Maemo 3.0-based OSes? i.e. will us as developers moving to Maemo 3.0 cut off our existing user base? I don't expect this to be answerable, but when a Maemo 3.0-based OS is released by Nokia for its internet tablets, will it be a free upgrade to existing 770 users? If not, even if a Bora-based end-user image works on the 770, we may have to take into account takeup. Thanks for anything you're able to share. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On 11/30/06, David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On tor, 2006-11-30 at 10:36 +, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: [snip] If Maemo is to be an open and community participated effort, rather than just an open source Nokia SDK[1], the leaders of the project (i.e. Nokia) need to start informing the community of their plans for the platform. When did Linus last announce the release date of the next kernel (and actually follow it)? Ohhh, but I guess you don't regard that as an open and community participated effort either. =) Touché, however I said plans not release date (although I did ask about the release date as well). Plans involve other stuff related to frameworks, component versions, capabilities etc. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On 11/30/06, Koen Kooi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew Flegg schreef: How far off is Bora? If it's next week, there's little point in continuing to port existing applications; if it's 6 months, then I'll carry on :-) You mean like the 'Roadmap' we both have been asking for in the past? I didn't want to use the scary R word, since tko confirmed there is no public roadmap to be announced. Asking, at least, when the next Maemo release is going to be should be independent of that. If Maemo is to be an open and community participated effort, rather than just an open source Nokia SDK[1], the leaders of the project (i.e. Nokia) need to start informing the community of their plans for the platform. Carlos' original email is a part of that, however there's no meat as to what will change (apart from herring-type HAF-level changes), and nothing at all yet as to *how* things are changing. The documentation about what will change and how will come soon (matter of days), you don't need to wait for Bora. Please be patient. Cheers, Andrew [1] There's nothing wrong with an open source Nokia SDK - it's just not what Maemo is pitched as. Maemo was started as an application development platform, with SDKs released for specific products. Many people who got excited about Maemo have wanted to see it as an openly developed platform and so have many people inside Nokia. This has influenced the Maemo message or at least colored how it is perceived. Officially Maemo is still that, an application development platform with SDKs, but we are experimenting with community development and eventually Maemo might develop into a community effort. I hope people will understand the difficulty of doing this, unfortunately it can't happen overnight. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
I think it's natural that, at first, the platform and the products that use it will be tightly bound. When the platform and products are more mature, it'll be easier to separate their schedules. But as long as they are bound, we can't expect companies to indirectly announce their product release plans too far ahead of time. In the meantime, we can at least see what's happening as it happens, and that's pretty good. And at least Maemo is largely built on other open-source projects that do have independent schedules. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On tor, 2006-11-30 at 10:53 +, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On 11/30/06, David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On tor, 2006-11-30 at 10:36 +, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: [snip] If Maemo is to be an open and community participated effort, rather than just an open source Nokia SDK[1], the leaders of the project (i.e. Nokia) need to start informing the community of their plans for the platform. When did Linus last announce the release date of the next kernel (and actually follow it)? Ohhh, but I guess you don't regard that as an open and community participated effort either. =) Touché, however I said plans not release date (although I did ask about the release date as well). Plans involve other stuff related to frameworks, component versions, capabilities etc. OK, our release plans for the next maemo release: We will try to fix as many bugs as we can, updating the components to newer versions where feasible, and do so within the next 6 months. This is pretty much what we can tell you at this point. We cannot specify component versions, because we don't know that ourselves (bugs or performance issues might force us to up- or downgrade). As far as capabilities go (I assume you mean features rather than the security related kind), that's something we simply cannot divulge without top management decisions, since that would commit us to a direction we might have reason to deviate from. We can of course express expected directions of development though, and I suspect that Carlos will announce such things fairly soon. Oh, and we will release the alarm framework within the same time frame. That will have version 0.4.x. As for people asking whether forthcoming releases will be free or not: all our releases have been free (as in gratis) so far. I don't know of any plans to change this, and I suspect that our management realises that such a move could kill the platform. It wouldn't surprise me if Nokia some day started selling add-on software; I haven't heard of any such plans, but it would make sense (and I cannot see how that could be objectionable). If/when new hardware is released, the software released with that hardware might not necessarily work on older hardware, although the Maemo parts likely should be easy enough to back port (and the handy hacker might even manage do disassemble the software images for the new hardware and use some of the proprietary software from those on the 770). The reason is simple -- making new software images work on old hardware would mean that some hardware upgrades would simply never be feasible. And believe it or not, Nokia doesn't make any money from giving away software for free. It makes money from selling hardware. So if we cannot leave the option open for hardware upgrades now and then, we don't have a feasible business case at all. The Internet Tablet concept isn't as simple as an mp3-player, where the same features can be sold forever on and on with just a change of plastic covers and/or storage capacity. Now all of this should be fairly evident, and I'm sure that if you sit down and think for a while, you'll realise that a company like Nokia simply cannot commit to a five-year plan (or even one-year plan) for something like this. What if someone suddenly came up with an idea that would render the Internet Tablet concept totally dead in the water? What if someone launched this really cool and new cpu that required 1/10th of the current power consumption but required rewrites of the software? What if upstream development of some component we're using suddenly stops -- we cannot maintain everything ourselves. What if... If the 770 had been Nokia's only product, or at least one of our major products, we might have been able to make this kind of promises, since we would've had a far bigger workforce, and could have easily hired several hundred developers just to maintain the SDK (I'm pretty sure the Symbian SDK numbers are in that ballpark, though I'm not sure, since I've never worked in the Symbian division, nor ever developed for that platform). But face it, the Nokia 770 is a drop in the ocean. Nokia is the largest cellphone manufacturer in the world. But we're not even a blimp on the radar screen when it comes to handheld devices. And the market for cellphones is gigantic, the market for Internet Tablets is, so far, minuscule. Until this changes, any medium- and long-term platform commitments will, I suspect, remain impossible to make. Then again, all of this are my own ramblings (even though I'm posting them from my Nokia account), so apart from the commitment on releasing the alarm framework, you'll have to take it with a grain of salt. Regards: David ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [I'm subscribed to this list, so quit with the reply-all nonsense] Carlos Guerreiro schreef: Officially Maemo is still that, an application development platform with SDKs, but we are experimenting with community development and eventually Maemo might develop into a community effort. I hope people will understand the difficulty of doing this, unfortunately it can't happen overnight. As mentioned on #maemo: the cynic could argue how about over a year? regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFbsc+MkyGM64RGpERAu4PAJ9HtuilAfj5lHa/p0lixaSTaRENVgCguCzq 0nhAQyII6daTpg9d0J6lqJE= =RUrp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 12:57:50PM +0100, ext Koen Kooi wrote: [I'm subscribed to this list, so quit with the reply-all nonsense] http://www.google.com/search?q=mail-followup-to Carlos Guerreiro schreef: Officially Maemo is still that, an application development platform with SDKs, but we are experimenting with community development and eventually Maemo might develop into a community effort. I hope people will understand the difficulty of doing this, unfortunately it can't happen overnight. As mentioned on #maemo: the cynic could argue how about over a year? David's mail is pretty good. Carlos is obviously doing his best, so all I can do is suggest to you that maybe doing your best to irritate the people trying to help you despite a large corporate structure that has never attempted this sort of open community development before, is a poor idea. Daniel, speaking for myself, not involved with SDK, etc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On 11/30/06, Daniel Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David's mail is pretty good. Carlos is obviously doing his best, so all I can do is suggest to you that maybe doing your best to irritate the people trying to help you despite a large corporate structure that has never attempted this sort of open community development before, is a poor idea. David's email is pretty good. Especially the news about the alarm framework. This is exactly the kind of thing we want to know, and the frustration is that it takes a few emails which could/are perceived as grumbling by Nokia to find it out. If you perceive us as grumbling, that's going to erect a wall between them/us which is never going to be good for getting a community. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On tor, 2006-11-30 at 13:05 +, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On 11/30/06, Daniel Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David's mail is pretty good. Carlos is obviously doing his best, so all I can do is suggest to you that maybe doing your best to irritate the people trying to help you despite a large corporate structure that has never attempted this sort of open community development before, is a poor idea. David's email is pretty good. Especially the news about the alarm framework. Well, I'm pretty sure that I've announced that before already. This is exactly the kind of thing we want to know, and the frustration is that it takes a few emails which could/are perceived as grumbling by Nokia to find it out. Well, the amount of people working on this project isn't exactly staggering. Each day we face the choice - spend a few hours on reading the maemo-developers list and answering to questions about our schedule, thereby delaying future releases furthere, or spend the same few hours working on the things that Nokia actually pays us to do. For some reason most people pick the latter option. To increase the likelihood of actually receiving answers to your questions on this list, try reading the list archive, don't ask questions that we've already said that we cannot answer, and try not to assume that we're doing everything out of malice. Because we're not. We're doing the best we can to produce a good product, both the thing we sell (the 770 with Internet Tablet Software Edition bla bla bla or whatever the name is) and the Maemo developer platform. But all of us only have so many hours per day, and the number of people actually hired to work just on Maemo is very low (I'm not, for instance). If you perceive us as grumbling, that's going to erect a wall between them/us which is never going to be good for getting a community. Communication is a two-way street. Try reading through some of your own posts lately (especially in light of my explanations in the aforementioned e-mail) and maybe you'll realise that you *are* grumbling quite a lot. Grumbling will probably get an answer from me eventually, but by that time I'll be quite pissed off. Regards: David ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On Thu, 2006-11-30 at 01:30 +0200, Carlos Guerreiro wrote: Hi, Like Sardine, Herring is meant for application developers, hackers and tinkerers, not for end-users. To taste it, follow the step by step instructions in http://maemo.org/maemowiki/SardineGettingStarted replacing 'sardine' with 'herring' in the 'sources.list' file. Hi, Is there some specific reason why instructions tell to select CPU-transparency in the devkits when creating a i386 target? I think that shouldn't be needed, but it should cause any problems either since no CPU-transparency method is selected. Sincerely, -- Miko Nieminen [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Taste the Herring!
On Thu, 2006-11-30 at 15:35 +0200, David Weinehall wrote: Well, the amount of people working on this project isn't exactly staggering. Each day we face the choice - spend a few hours on reading the maemo-developers list and answering to questions about our schedule, thereby delaying future releases furthere, or spend the same few hours working on the things that Nokia actually pays us to do. For some reason most people pick the latter option. [snip] That's understandable. Hence the need for a person who can dedicate time to the community, to deal with issues on the mailing lists, and the simple patches in Maemo's bugzilla. So that Nokia can benefit from them. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
