[Mageia-dev] How will be the realese cycle?
I'm just wondering if we follow Mandriva's release cycle model. Every 6th months a release or one year and one release. I think we should make one release in one year. By doing so devs and translators won't be in rush in every 6 months. Also there are major changes like systemd/upstart; those system related things will be more mature in a year to use. It makes the distro more stable and decraese mirrors space waste. One more thing. Do we follow Mandriva's release naming scheme? I.e. do we call our first release 2011.x ? I don't like this naming scheme and suggesting using number of release as naming like Mageia 1.0 or using code names. What's your opinion?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Pascal Terjan wrote: > Well the complexity of the protocol is to allow firefox to download > only needed part of the blacklist, without sending the url to google > and without downloading a huge list periodically. > All the information passed by firefox to google is which chunk of the > list it wants do download, this being determined by the beginning of > the hash of the url. > It would indeed be simpler to send the url. Can you state as a fact that Google has no way to reproduce the url or at least the domain name of the site the user is visiting based on the information passed on by this Firefox feature to Google? I don't think this can be said with certainty, thanks to the complexity of the protocol. In any case, regardless what data gets passed on, I think we should follow the principle of making sure that apps only interact with remote services when the user is aware of it, i.e. INFORMED CONSENT, like I mentioned in the previous mail. Therefore any features that interact automatically with remote services without the informed consent of the user should be disabled by default. (the user is still free to enable them at any time, so we are not limiting the user in any way) The following article makes it very clear why this is always a good practice to follow: http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2010/09/some-android-apps-found-to-covertly-send-gps-data-to-advertisers.ars
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
I love FireFox for its plethora of add-ons. I wouldn't give it up for any other browser, although it eats up a lot of memory.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 21:27, Tux99 wrote: > What I did though is read the specs of the protocol that implements this > 'feature' and I must say that it's not entirely clear what information > Firefox passes on to Google when contacting the Google 'safe-browsing' > databse. The current version of the protocol seems very complicated to > me, I'd say unnecessarily complicated, which is not what you would want > from a potentially privacy-sensitive feature. Well the complexity of the protocol is to allow firefox to download only needed part of the blacklist, without sending the url to google and without downloading a huge list periodically. All the information passed by firefox to google is which chunk of the list it wants do download, this being determined by the beginning of the hash of the url. It would indeed be simpler to send the url.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Ahmad Samir wrote: > A bit off-topic, but first you should answer pterjan's question > here[1]: Look at the code and show me a place where any URL is sent > to Google. > > [1] http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2010-08/msg00461.php Well, given the size of the source code of Firefox and the fact that I'm not familiar with it, that would be like searching for a needle in a haystack. What I did though is read the specs of the protocol that implements this 'feature' and I must say that it's not entirely clear what information Firefox passes on to Google when contacting the Google 'safe-browsing' databse. The current version of the protocol seems very complicated to me, I'd say unnecessarily complicated, which is not what you would want from a potentially privacy-sensitive feature. ( http://code.google.com/p/google-safe-browsing/wiki/Protocolv2Spec ) The fact remains that when this feature is enabled, Firefox interacts with a Google service, without the user being aware of it. My main point is, any program (not just Firefox) that contacts a remote service (where it's not obvious for the user) should notify the user about this with a dialog box before doing so the first time, asking for the informed consent of the user. In fact this could be a strong unique selling point of Mageia, if we make sure that all Mageia packages are configured by default to respect the user's privacy and to always request consent from the user before connecting to remote services. A slogan could be: "Mageia the Linux distro that takes your privacy seriously" Drakrpm is a good example on how to do it correctly, since before setting up the list of mirrors it asks the user for consent to contact the Mandriva site to download the list of mirrors.
[Mageia-dev] Hello
Hello, i am glad to be a contributor of the Mandriva _fork_. zieduz
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Graham Lauder a écrit : On Friday 01 Oct 2010 02:04:26 Marc Paré wrote: Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get our heads around Vision and Mission Statement. Everyone brainstormed what they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the Projects Vision and mission statement could head. The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our primary target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should be aimed. A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic. If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular Demographics. For instance: OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits Fedora at the Computing Professional Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the whole family could use it. This seems to be an excellent target market. The relative ease-of-use of Mandriva should have been targeted here. In the past, without realising it, I've targeted such users myself for Mandriva. And Mageia has the advantage of not being tied to a commercial market. So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. Such applications don't have to be installed by default. They just have to be available on the installation DVD, with a selectable Educational group of applications, much like the Internet and Server groups available on existing Mandriva DVD's. It could even be called "Young Family". Note that in the past (at least about 10 years ago), RedHat CD's had many selectable installation groups, many of which overlapped. So using this approach, there could be groups called "Educational", "Young Family", and "Home Office", for example, all containing the go-openoffice office suite, among other applications. I believe that the current Mandriva DVD doesn't have any overlap between installation groups. Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and how to make it Net safe. I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of branding. Comments? I think you are right on the mark. Cheers GL I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.For example, when marketing the OS, emphasis on the distro that can carry your kids through their educational paths with such packages as OpenOffice (soon to be LibreOffice -- make sure the MSWorks plug-in is also included) compatible with MSOffice; GIMP similar to Photoshop and some plugins are compatible; Freemind mindmapping; etc. If Mageia concentrated on making these software packages work solidly then you could have a good run at competing with other linux distros in the educational field. Indeed, that's why I suggest OOo4Kids. The go-oo.org version is pretty much essential right now because of it's GoogleDocs/Zoho integration. Schools are using the cloud as an educational tool more and more. BTW, in Canada, many school boards still use the Novel Netware setups and they are just now in the midst of planning out its replacement. My school board for example will have to replace close to 10,000 units if they were to move to a Linux setup. I sat in on a meeting about 5 years ago to hear out a RehHat re-seller's pitch. Most school boards are almost at the break point and will be actively looking for new networking/desktop solutions. Mageia to the rescue :) Common all over the world and if the school can see that the software used at school is as friendly on the home computer... The big plus : no extra cost for exactly what is used at school. So, compatibility with educational software. The distro should also be an easy install for everyone and GUI run. If we are going to make it and contend with other distros, the majority of users wa
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 1 October 2010 04:47, Tux99 wrote: > On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam R E Quin wrote: > >> Possibly, but then you don't get the ads... which, like it or not, are >> funding an awful lot of Web sites. > > The business model of web site owners shouldn't be our concern, > otherwise we should also stop using FOSS since it's all lost sales for > proprietary software and we should stop reading news online since it > hurts newspaper sales, etc. > >> There's always the myth that Linux users have no money, and/or just want >> things without paying for them... > > It has nothing to do with money, it's about blocking annoying flashing > ads, pop-overs, pop-unders, user-tracking scripts, etc. > >> Better to make AdBlock scripts easy to install (e.g. via >> MageiaControlCentre?), and maybe include them (so no download needed) >> but not enabled. > > Ok, we could keep it disabled by default, but it should be installed so > that anyone can easily enable it, if desired. > > On the other hand we should keep the following two options in Firefox > DISABLED by default, since they are nothing but Google tracking devices > disguised as security features: > > Preferences>Security: > - Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected attack site > - Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected forgery > > With these two options enabled, Firefox contacts a Google DB for every > site you visit, telling Google the site you are visiting (Google > claims they don't use this info to track users, but given Google's > attitude to privacy, I do not believe their claim at all). > Also these two options are really meant to protect Windows users, on > Linux they are fairly useless from a security POV. > > A bit off-topic, but first you should answer pterjan's question here[1]: “Look at the code and show me a place where any URL is sent to Google.” [1] http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2010-08/msg00461.php -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mailman idiot defaults
Michael Scherer wrote: > That's not the same setting, there is first_strip_reply_to and > reply_goes_to_list . The second was enabled, not the former. I have > activated it, and I think i will need to review -i18n for that too Thanks, Michael.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam R E Quin wrote: > Possibly, but then you don't get the ads... which, like it or not, are > funding an awful lot of Web sites. The business model of web site owners shouldn't be our concern, otherwise we should also stop using FOSS since it's all lost sales for proprietary software and we should stop reading news online since it hurts newspaper sales, etc. > There's always the myth that Linux users have no money, and/or just want > things without paying for them... It has nothing to do with money, it's about blocking annoying flashing ads, pop-overs, pop-unders, user-tracking scripts, etc. > Better to make AdBlock scripts easy to install (e.g. via > MageiaControlCentre?), and maybe include them (so no download needed) > but not enabled. Ok, we could keep it disabled by default, but it should be installed so that anyone can easily enable it, if desired. On the other hand we should keep the following two options in Firefox DISABLED by default, since they are nothing but Google tracking devices disguised as security features: Preferences>Security: - Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected attack site - Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected forgery With these two options enabled, Firefox contacts a Google DB for every site you visit, telling Google the site you are visiting (Google claims they don't use this info to track users, but given Google's attitude to privacy, I do not believe their claim at all). Also these two options are really meant to protect Windows users, on Linux they are fairly useless from a security POV.
Re: [Mageia-dev] So?
On Sep 30, 2010, at 8:16 PM, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 19:37 -0400, SinnerBOFH a écrit : >> >> >> On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:41 PM, Anne nicolas wrote: >> >>> Just to mention: we will tomorrow evening send a review on all work >>> currently done: infrastructures, association, global organization >>> -- >>> Anne >> >> Any news on this front? > > I guess Anne forgot, thanks for reminding us. Wow! Exciting news! Can't wait for the surprise! :D Salut, Sinner
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Michael Scherer wrote: Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is better. Well, saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at newbies. I think Mageia should be marketed/presented on the basis of its tools and hardware recognition. It lends itself to easy configuration and administration with the Mageia Control Center and its many excellent individual tools, like the partitioner, so is newbie friendly, but is also power user and system controller friendly, and person who wants to learn computers friendly, if you want to use cli. We should talk about our assets and explain what individuals/groups those assets might be relevant to. Mandriva's/Mageia's unique set of tools is what differentiate's it/them from other distros. Dale Huckeby
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 04:07 +0200, Tux99 wrote: [...] > While we are at it, why don't we rather include AdblockPlus enabled by > default with EasyList+EasyPrivacy filters for Firefox? > Blocking off ads and tracking scripts makes Firefox a lot faster too! Possibly, but then you don't get the ads... which, like it or not, are funding an awful lot of Web sites. There's always the myth that Linux users have no money, and/or just want things without paying for them... Better to make AdBlock scripts easy to install (e.g. via MageiaControlCentre?), and maybe include them (so no download needed) but not enabled. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Mailman idiot defaults
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:00 -0400, Frank Griffin a écrit : > Could the admin for this list please change the Reply-To default to the > list itself ? The other Mageia lists appear to have done this, but this > one still sends replies to both the sender and the list. That's not the same setting, there is first_strip_reply_to and reply_goes_to_list . The second was enabled, not the former. I have activated it, and I think i will need to review -i18n for that too. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, sorteal wrote: > I'm curious if Chromium has been considered as the default browser? > With KDE seeming to be the DE of choice and Firefox having a less than > stellar record with KDE integration I find Chromium to be an appealing > alternative to Firefox. Just curious. I'd much prefer to keep Firefox as default, it is still much more popular than Chromium and since Google as a company is considered highly controversial because of their attitude to privacy, using Chromium as default would antagonize a part of our potential users. Also while Chromium is technically open source, in practice Google discourages community collaboration, see this blog entry from the Fedora Chromium packager: http://spot.livejournal.com/314645.html While we are at it, why don't we rather include AdblockPlus enabled by default with EasyList+EasyPrivacy filters for Firefox? Blocking off ads and tracking scripts makes Firefox a lot faster too! ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 14:50:52 Frank Griffin wrote: > Graham Lauder wrote: > > In a phrase: Horse Doo doo > > [] > > > Mageia has a donation system > > [] > > > We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing > > costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, > > which is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev > > on contract and so on and so forth. > > > > Now our problem is that in these days of "everything free off the > > Internet" getting Koha is problematic. However there is, obviously, a > > proportion of the market that is willing to give Koha. That proportion > > in a market is generally but arguably fixed, so the bigger the market > > the greater the Koha. Our advantage is that our "costs" vary little > > with the size of the market. > > I'm not exactly ignorant of Economics 101, having been in this business > (on the commercial side) for about 35 years. :-) 42 for me, I started with NCR in August of 1968 and eventually went on to be MD of my own company for eighteen years, these days retired on my little country estate, wonderful lifestyle, bloody awful internet connection. :) And this is not economics this is Marketing 101 > > You make my point exactly. The infrastructure costs are fixed, and the > donor pool will be larger if the user base is larger. > [] If MDV had trumpeted itself as a KDE-only Family (or Education, > or whatever) distro, and reinforced that by excluding packages and > infrastructure support for other stuff, I wouldn't have given a dime. And you miss my point entirely, there is NO trumpeting, that's advertising, there is no exclusion, rather inclusion of a missed market > > > There is already a way of doing that, it's called OBS (OpenSUSE Build > > service, it's free software, install it or in fact use it) and with that > > and SUSE Studio, OpenSUSE have that corner of the market targeted and > > nailed. > > Except that they don't have the tools that we have. The software > packages are common to every distro. The tools aren't. The key to > whether someone would use OBS or ours (or even OBS ported to use our > packages) is the quality of the packages (currency, stability) and the > quality of the distro tools. I'm a marketing guy not a hacker and I haven't been part of the marketing of OBS, but I seem to remember that OBS packages for a whole heap of distros including even deb based ones. However I may be wrong talk to Jos Poortvliet or Andreas Jaeger on the opensuse lists > > "Focus" is all about excluding "non-essential" activities so that a > company can focus its limited resources on the desires of a specific > market. Focus in this case is about establishing branding, nothing else [] > Cheers, > Frank Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
[Mageia-dev] Mailman idiot defaults
Could the admin for this list please change the Reply-To default to the list itself ? The other Mageia lists appear to have done this, but this one still sends replies to both the sender and the list. I've just had one experience where the reply goes to the sender and *not* to the list. I'm aware of the prejudices of the Mailman developers, but let's please adhere to standards. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Graham Lauder wrote: > In a phrase: Horse Doo doo [] > Mageia has a donation system > [] > We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing > costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, which > is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev on > contract > and so on and so forth. > > Now our problem is that in these days of "everything free off the Internet" > getting Koha is problematic. However there is, obviously, a proportion of the > market that is willing to give Koha. That proportion in a market is > generally > but arguably fixed, so the bigger the market the greater the Koha. Our > advantage is that our "costs" vary little with the size of the market. > I'm not exactly ignorant of Economics 101, having been in this business (on the commercial side) for about 35 years. :-) You make my point exactly. The infrastructure costs are fixed, and the donor pool will be larger if the user base is larger. You can either choose to entice people to donate because of their perception of the slant (market vision) of the distro, or you can entice people to donate because they find the distro useful to them personally (otherwise known as pseudo-shareware). If you narrow the audience using the former approach, you're excluding potential contributors. I was a member of Mandriva Club for years because I thought Mandriva worth supporting; I never bought a PowerPack or a Box Set because I never needed that stuff. If MDV had trumpeted itself as a KDE-only Family (or Education, or whatever) distro, and reinforced that by excluding packages and infrastructure support for other stuff, I wouldn't have given a dime. > There is already a way of doing that, it's called OBS (OpenSUSE Build > service, > it's free software, install it or in fact use it) and with that and SUSE > Studio, OpenSUSE have that corner of the market targeted and nailed. > Except that they don't have the tools that we have. The software packages are common to every distro. The tools aren't. The key to whether someone would use OBS or ours (or even OBS ported to use our packages) is the quality of the packages (currency, stability) and the quality of the distro tools. "Focus" is all about excluding "non-essential" activities so that a company can focus its limited resources on the desires of a specific market. A community distro is about servicing the largest possible community and providing a base from which others (including ourselves) can specialize. The assumption is that the community will supply the manpower needed to achieve the objectives they want achieved, and if you think that the potential developer contributor pool gives a rat's whatever about targeted "image" distros that don't satisfy their specific needs, then you don't know developers. And I would seriously question the assumption that 20-something families looking for commodity computing are going to become a significant donor base; that might happen if they were required to pay for it up front, and if their desire to buy it was great enough, but if they can get it and install it for free, they're outta there after that. Your contributions are going to come from people who have a longer-term view or an investment in the health of the distro. Cheers, Frank ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 05:03:25 Thorsten van Lil wrote: > Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] > Im Auftrag von Gustavo Giampaoli > > > Every distro, with the > > > > right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. > > > >From a logical point of you, your right. But people aren't logical. Ship a > > distribution with a background with balloons and some fancy window > decoration and kids will love it, while other will never try it. > > It's stupid, because you can easily change it but nevertheless, that's it > like it work. So for me the question of our main market is a question of > who we want to attract. And I think Graham aims at this to, because we > need a logo, main colors, a website, ... . All these parts should attract > the people of our main market. YodaMan, Yo all hear dis: HEdaMan :D Sorry sleep deprivation and I watched Martin Lawrence last night! ;) > > What packages we ship doesn't really matters, because as you said "Linux is > Linux". > > So, who do we want to attract? > > Regards, > TeaAge > > ___ > Mageia-dev mailing list > Mageia-dev@mageia.org > https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 10:11:18 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > Reading all this one thing comes to my mind: the world is not the same > all over the world. Same applies to your assessments of school > decisions, families and the Linux/WIndows issue. > > Over here the public office of a state controlls what computers and > operating systems are used in schools, money is not a criteria there. > It is, of course, in the sense that many schools can not have > computers at all or just 10 machines for a school of 500 students. Ah, > yes, I'm talking about Germany, not somewhere in central Africa. > The public office makes deals with Microsoft (sometimes Mr. Gates > himself came to visit before a new contract was signed), the largest > local t-com provider sponsors the internet access and the schools have > no say in that. It used to be like that here too, but governments don't like exclusivity and given the option they will contract other players with the right sort of pressure. Novell did it here in NZ, got the same deal as MickySoft. Education departments respond to pressure from industry, simple > > The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new > one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no > say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know > anything about computers. Nonsense, It's interesting I know quite a few German families here in NZ, perhaps that's why they migrated, so the wife could make the majority of the purchasing decisions. ;) I'm afraid that your impressions fly in the face of all the real marketing intelligence. Dad or kids buy the computers because Mum has been left out of the demographic, typical given the number of women in the industry, but target that demographic and Mum becomes decision maker. In this day and age everyone knows about computers even if they don't know how to operate them. They also know the significance of computers in modern society and In this target group they would invariably know how to work them. I'm talking young parents here, they've likely had computers to work and play with right through their Secondary school career and now they have school age kids of their own who demand technology > > One of the largest and fastest growing groups of computer users over > here are people of age, retired persons who visit computer courses in > the neighborhood center (I'm teaching there sometimes). They are a > target group also. Agreed wholeheartedly and guess what, many have Grandchildren and families > > I think the one you picked (young couples with kids) are those who are > the unlikeliest targets - Mom and Dad are working, perhaps with > computers, most times with Windows. Kids will learn their computer > knowledge in school, not at home because Mom and Dad have no time for > that. Nonsense, this group understands that education is nonstop process and for their children to make the most of their educational opportunities then they need the tools at home to do it. It is a market that is ripe for the plucking because the only people targeting them right now is Microsoft. > > See, this is quite different to the picture you are painting, and I > can imagine that it may be still different in other areas of the > world. Every place is unique, but not as unique as we'd all like to believe, one thing that marketing tells you. A good example is Micky Ds, the same everywhere, with slight local variations. > > Therefore picking one target group for a worldwide project like this > is the wrong way IMHO. I am not picking one target group, I am identifying an untapped market and a potentially large one. It's also a small network of 4.2 people and more when you include a third generation, and personal network is our weakest link and MS's strongest > > wobo cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 07:41:01 Michael Scherer wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > > better. > > Well, > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. Kira is being positive and you have spent the rest of the mail arguing a way to agree with her. :) But thanks anyway for the reinforcement > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others > distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using > another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear > as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at > newbies. > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to > report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to > basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting > in less quality, and a less sustainable community. > > Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". > See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ > "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest > technology" "software you love". Neither are we saying that, in fact what we would possibly be saying is "Mageia has the tools to allow your Genius (tm) to achieve their place in the world" or something of that nature. What you are talking about is an advertising approach not a marketing demographic and so is somewhat premature We haven't stated how we would approach the market only that we identified this as a possible target. Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
Marcello Anni wrote on 09/29/2010 05:28 AM: https://qa.mandriva.com/attachment.cgi?id=17504 I don't like it because there is no end in sight. It would be better to look like the OP, then under what you see with the OP, you could have something like yours with the above item highlighted showing where you are and what is next. Wayne Sallee wa...@waynesallee.com ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] So?
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 19:37 -0400, SinnerBOFH a écrit : > > > > On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:41 PM, Anne nicolas wrote: > > > Just to mention: we will tomorrow evening send a review on all work > > currently done: infrastructures, association, global organization > > -- > > --- > > Anne > > Any news on this front? I guess Anne forgot, thanks for reminding us. I can make a brief summary from what I remind : - a sysadmin team have been created, except we do not have yet servers to manage ( ok, 1 ). I will let nicolas (boklm) explain, as he was in charge of this - we have a vm offered by gandi.net, to host secondary dns + blog + www + secondary mx + temporary svn. It is not installed yet ( besides the os ) - damien(damsweb), raphael(rapsys) and anne (ennael) are taking care of getting a hoster for the 5 servers that were offered by a donor who wish to stay anonymous, and for the missing hardware ( mainly hard drives ). - the statuts of the association should be sent on friday or at the beginning of the week, published 1 month later roughly ( once reviewed by administration ), by severine ( sevalienor ) - olivier (Nanar) should soon annonce plan for mirrors ( and a perl web application to take care of this, so if people want to help him on anything ). - afaik, we will also soon post a FAQ on the website, written by damien and severine, and proofread by anssi and ahmad - I am working on a planning for the deployment of the buildsystem ( roughly, 4/5 days from scratch without server installation if all goes well ), when I am not answering to mails or taking care of servers. - romain is still working on the manifesto, among others ( like helping for statuts, organisation rules, getting contacts, etc ) - we have been contacted by various newspapers, podcasts, etc, which have took lots of time. I will not spoil the surprise however to tell where we answered :p - buchan ( bgmilne) is taking care of the ldap part to store accounts I may have forgot some parts, and some people, but I think that summarizing everything that was since a few days. Of course, you can also add the work of AUFML for donation, the part about blog done by damien, etc. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] So?
On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:41 PM, Anne nicolas wrote: > Just to mention: we will tomorrow evening send a review on all work > currently done: infrastructures, association, global organization > -- > --- > Anne Any news on this front? Salut, Sinner ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le vendredi 01 octobre 2010 à 00:28 +0300, P. Christeas a écrit : > On Thursday 30 September 2010, Michael Scherer wrote: > > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > > > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > > > better. > > > > Well, > > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. > > > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use > > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > > newbie". ... > > > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > > community > > ++ > What about the "easy to learn distro" as a concept? Yup, the distro that make you become expert, something like that. One thing we must not forget is that we need people that contribute if we want to survive. A commercial distribution requires money ( and therefore users that can bring money , either directly, or either indirectly ( service, ads, etc )) to survive. We are not a commercial distribution, so the pressure is lower with regard to money. But we still to have people that develop it, and if we cannot pay people for that directly ( since we are not a company, even if maybe some companies will help us later ), we need to directly use contributions as a way to ensure our own sustainability. SO IMHO, this is what we should seek if we want to survive. Gathering contributions should be one of our goals. The second point is that we are here because we want community empowerment. So community also must be a strong point, especially since it will appeal to people that would allow the community to survive. So again, I think that empowerment should be another one of the goals. Now, we must ask ourself "what is pushing people to contribute". There is various papers, like this one http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1113/1033 ( I let the analysis as a exercise for the moment ). And we need to find a way to combine this with others goals. While a traditional motivation in free software is to solve our own problem ( and that's also part of community empowerment ), this is not enough. We also need to think to more than us. And I think that's the complex part. We have 2 choices. Either we try to find a market where no one went, or a market where someone went, and try to be better. Or maybe both. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 18:34, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 18:32 -0400, sorteal a écrit : >> I'm curious if Chromium has been considered as the default browser? >> With KDE seeming to be the DE of choice and Firefox having a less than >> stellar record with KDE integration I find Chromium to be an appealing >> alternative to Firefox. Just curious. > > Chromium is a pain to properly package, imho. > Some alternatives could include Epiphany for GTK desktops and ReKonq for KDE... While this mess is being sorted out. -- later, Robert Xu ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 18:32 -0400, sorteal a écrit : > I'm curious if Chromium has been considered as the default browser? > With KDE seeming to be the DE of choice and Firefox having a less than > stellar record with KDE integration I find Chromium to be an appealing > alternative to Firefox. Just curious. Chromium is a pain to properly package, imho. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
[Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
I'm curious if Chromium has been considered as the default browser? With KDE seeming to be the DE of choice and Firefox having a less than stellar record with KDE integration I find Chromium to be an appealing alternative to Firefox. Just curious. -Jason A. Turner ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 03:05:26 Kira wrote: > > Just saying that Mageia can do anything would make new comers wonder: > > So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? > > We can still list out what Mageia can do, but some personality is > > definitely needed, Cool Kira, I love the concept of "Personality", that's what branding should do: Highlight the Personality and Personality is a strong attractor in this market Define that personality and that guides branding elements such as Logo and mascot. Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 02:34:08 Thorsten van Lil wrote: > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] > Im Auftrag von Graham Lauder > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. September 2010 13:21 > An: Mageia development mailing-list > Betreff: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets > >>A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when >>in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new >>demographic. >> >>If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our >> principle point of difference and again this influences our branding >> choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. > > This point is a bit difficult to me, as we (as the community) are the > internal and external in one. We create the distribution for us (the whole > community) and try enlarge the community. There is a balancing act of course and all one can do is reiterate the concept so that when people make a decision they take it into account. But then that's my job, because at first the marketing is always aimed inward. For this concept it's actually not that hard, all I'm asking people to think about is: "Would your Mother like this branding?" because at the end of the day that's who the target is, the vast majority of family purchase decisions are made by the mother. > > For example, afaik nearly 75% of the mandriva user (and there for Mageia > user) use KDE. If we for example aim an group of people which KDE doesn't > fit, we will probably loose more users the win new users. That's the tricky > part of a community distro I think ;) Ubuntu has done well, being focused on Gnome. I do like the suggestion that we should be the Best KDE OS, it's a good focus. > >>The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be >>marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference >>when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. > > Although I don't count myself to this group, I'm totally fine with the idea > and see that it is a nearly untapped market. But on the otherside: how big > could this market be? Huge. > > >So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes > > would > > >be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids > > installed > > >as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. > > Here I see some problems: > If we release a LiveCD and a DVD (like Mandriva does), there will be enough > space on the LiveCD for extra software. On the DVD there is enough space I > think, but is it for example really necessary to ship to office suits, just > to define our aimed market? On a DVD there would be room, especially we concentrated on a single major DE, but that is a packaging issue > > >Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids > >and > > > >how to make it Net safe. > > That's a really cool idea! As we also debate about a welcome center, there > should definitely be a link in it, to that kind of documentation. > > I think that the normal home user and a young family have nearly the same > requirements. Both need an easy to install and maintain and use system (yes > I know: who doesn't want this). Maybe we can create a distribution which > fits such requirements and specialize to the family with meta-packages, > special documentation and tools for them? > > Regards, > TeaAge > Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
atilla ontas a écrit : 2010/9/30 Robert Xu: On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer wrote: Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit : I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive it will be fine. Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable it. Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear? -- later, Robert Xu Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies. If we' re talking about a Welcome Center, we should decide if it is only an informative html page or an assistance to configure basic things or both. Don't forget that (under Mandriva) there already is a routine to configure the system when one installs or upgrades. I see it every 6 months, with a new version of Mandriva. However, it is not very user-friendly for a novice, and doesn't have very complete help for advanced users. My initial reaction to this idea was that the existing functions would be improved by a welcome centre. But the more I think about it, I'm reminded of the "Bob" routine and the "What do you want to do today" slogan of Microsoft. Neither lasted very long. The last think we want to do is "dumb down" Mageia. That will turn off a lot more people than it will attract, in my view. What will help is a more complete help system on install, much like Ubuntu already has. Mandriva has many assets, this is just one of the weaker points. The way Mandriva works now, all the applications listed in the suggested "welcome centre" can be readily installed (at least an equivalent by default in most cases), and the default menu system lists every gui application installed. Maybe a guided tour is a good idea, but with the large variety of applications available and the various desktops, it is a lot more complicated than the one-size-fits-all environnement of Microsoft. An idea just came to mind -- instead of a "welcome centre", having an option to show the descriptions with the name of each item in a menu page. Currently the description (or comment) only appears on hovering over the item name, which is fine for those already familiar with their Mageia installation. However being able to see all the descriptions at once in the menu page would be really useful for novices. And it wouldn't be "dumbing down" Mageia. As well as being very easy to implement, as the descriptions are normally already there and localised. (That is part of the XDG menu specs, the norm used by Mandriva, and many other distros.) Just an idea ... - André (andre999) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 03:09:25 Frank Griffin wrote: > Marc Paré wrote: > > Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : > >> The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia > >> could be > >> marketed as the "Family Distro". > > > > I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible > > with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we > > could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia. > > I think that these are endeavors for an entity which is exactly what > we've just got done saying Mageia *isn't*, namely a commercial venture. In a phrase: Horse Doo doo (not exactly what I wanted to say but I wanted to protect the "G" rating! :) ) This is not about commercial, it's about market. Mageia has a donation system, in my culture the nearest thing is called Koha (Yes the name of the open source Library Management Software) It is a sort of open source value assignation system, it's not that it is "cost free" but more that it's "Cost optional" and the simple fact that we have a donation system in place means we follow this model. Branding is also about this but we'll come back to that. We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, which is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev on contract and so on and so forth. Now our problem is that in these days of "everything free off the Internet" getting Koha is problematic. However there is, obviously, a proportion of the market that is willing to give Koha. That proportion in a market is generally but arguably fixed, so the bigger the market the greater the Koha. Our advantage is that our "costs" vary little with the size of the market. There could be an argument made that "Cost Optional" is a commercial model, but a commercial model demands profit margins and I don't think that's where we're at. > > Currently, the package inventory of Mandriva is fairly all-inclusive, > and I don't think we should abandon any specific interest group. > Mandriva may have to do this to remain commercially viable - we do not. > > However, let me try to translate your desires into a more technical > objective that would meet the need.. > > Traditionally, the MDV ISO-building process has been complex, not > well-documented, and difficult for anyone outside of MDV to use. [.] > You want it, you design it, you press the button > and build it. > > It should not be too difficult to write a utility that goes through a > content list and automatically updates the package names to newer > versions, so maintenance could be minimal. Of course, you'd need to > fire up the build utility to see if there are new package requirements > or if you've exceeded your space constraint. There is already a way of doing that, it's called OBS (OpenSUSE Build service, it's free software, install it or in fact use it) and with that and SUSE Studio, OpenSUSE have that corner of the market targeted and nailed. [] Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
On Thursday 30 September 2010, André Machado wrote: > Honestly, do a poll with the user before he or she uses the system for the > first time is a shot in the foot. I think some should appear in the > taskbar notification inviting the user to answer some questions when he > was online a few days after you have installed the system. Agreed, a survey is not a welcome. >From a statistics point of view, IMHO, the best results would come if you could get the user to answer _2_ short (as in non-boring) questionaires: one just before he/she has any experience with the distro, and one a few days later. The first would tell if marketing got the message right and the second would indicate if the distro lives up to its hype. -- Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows! ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
Le 2010-09-30 15:55, Anne nicolas a écrit : As a note, I spoke with Pascal Chevrel today from Mozilla Europe. He told me that Debian was going back to use Firefox. Legal issues are solved --- Anne I believe even at the time that Debian had issues with the Firefox brand, that Mozilla didn't really consider it an issue. Mozilla had a harder issues with the Debian re-branding of Firefox. The message they tried to send to the debian community is that there was really not such a big issue over this. Nice to see its fixed as it takes a little work from the dev's to remove the "brand" out of software and, normally, if you have made it a big deal, then it all has to come out totally. Just imagine the work the Mageia dev's have to go through to remove the "Mandriva" mention from the distro before working on it. I am sure the debian devs are breathing a sigh of relief and shaking their heads over this one. Marc ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Thursday 30 September 2010, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > > better. > > Well, > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > newbie". ... > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > community ++ What about the "easy to learn distro" as a concept? -- Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows! ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
2010/9/30 andré : > > The MCC (Mandriva Control Centre, to become Mageia Control Centre) already > has most if not all the hardware configuration elements. > How about adding an information page to the MCC ? More like a Documentation&Help section like the other sections. You can have an icon for the main Mageia site, one for the local wiki page according to the selected language, one for the local forum, etc. whatever fits in there. You can even add an icon for the donation page :) This is IMHO the most attraccting idea I have read so far. Then the MCC should be renamed to "Mageia Central". Like a one-stop shopping mall for configuration, information and help. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Reading all this one thing comes to my mind: the world is not the same all over the world. Same applies to your assessments of school decisions, families and the Linux/WIndows issue. Over here the public office of a state controlls what computers and operating systems are used in schools, money is not a criteria there. It is, of course, in the sense that many schools can not have computers at all or just 10 machines for a school of 500 students. Ah, yes, I'm talking about Germany, not somewhere in central Africa. The public office makes deals with Microsoft (sometimes Mr. Gates himself came to visit before a new contract was signed), the largest local t-com provider sponsors the internet access and the schools have no say in that. The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know anything about computers. One of the largest and fastest growing groups of computer users over here are people of age, retired persons who visit computer courses in the neighborhood center (I'm teaching there sometimes). They are a target group also. I think the one you picked (young couples with kids) are those who are the unlikeliest targets - Mom and Dad are working, perhaps with computers, most times with Windows. Kids will learn their computer knowledge in school, not at home because Mom and Dad have no time for that. See, this is quite different to the picture you are painting, and I can imagine that it may be still different in other areas of the world. Therefore picking one target group for a worldwide project like this is the wrong way IMHO. wobo ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
André Machado a écrit : - Display on the welcome screen basic hardware information : Processor, RAM, video card and the driver currently activated. Can this be done using HTML pages or need some extra tool? - A link to sysinfo:// that offers some hardware information that could fit inside the welcome center as it is a simple HTML layout. On that page, there can be a link directly to Harddrake to get even more information. Getting system information easily is actually a thing many distros miss, apparently. Is this sysinfo:// default or is implemented by any special tool? But there should be a warning light on such a welcome center : beware the windows-like thing. We really need to think about a new and useful design. Indeed. I guess that Windows Vista/7 has a simmilar tool called Wellcome Center. So, we need think on a better name to avoid lawsuits... Lawsuits ? Unlikely. It's a pretty generic name for the function. However, it seems to me to be the worst thing we can do is emulate Microsoft. We are not a "Microsoft bon marché". We must find another name for such a tool. The more I think of it, the more I think that we should develop the tools we already have (with Mandriva). The MCC (Mandriva Control Centre, to become Mageia Control Centre) already has most if not all the hardware configuration elements. How about adding an information page to the MCC ? This information page could be the default load page, with entry of a password delayed until the user progresses further. As you may not know, the MCC is just a script which calls the various configuration pages. As well, the MCC could use more complete documentation at various points. Something not very difficult to add, with a bit of work. - André (andre999) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 02:04:26 Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : > > A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get > > our heads around Vision and Mission Statement. Everyone brainstormed > > what they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the > > Projects Vision and mission statement could head. > > > > The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our primary > > target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should > > be aimed. > > > > A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when > > in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new > > demographic. If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point > > toward our principle point of difference and again this influences our > > branding choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. > > > > The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could > > be marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of > > difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to > > run. > > > > Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a > > whole but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular > > Demographics. For instance: > > OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market > > Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market > > CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits > > Fedora at the Computing Professional > > > > Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, > > being the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared > > so that the whole family could use it. > > > > So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes > > would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids > > installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. > > > > Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids > > and how to make it Net safe. > > > > I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the > > project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of > > branding. > > > > Comments? > > > > Cheers > > GL > > I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible > with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we > could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.For > example, when marketing the OS, emphasis on the distro that can carry > your kids through their educational paths with such packages as > OpenOffice (soon to be LibreOffice -- make sure the MSWorks plug-in is > also included) compatible with MSOffice; GIMP similar to Photoshop and > some plugins are compatible; Freemind mindmapping; etc. If Mageia > concentrated on making these software packages work solidly then you > could have a good run at competing with other linux distros in the > educational field. Indeed, that's why I suggest OOo4Kids. The go-oo.org version is pretty much essential right now because of it's GoogleDocs/Zoho integration. Schools are using the cloud as an educational tool more and more. > > BTW, in Canada, many school boards still use the Novel Netware setups > and they are just now in the midst of planning out its replacement. My > school board for example will have to replace close to 10,000 units if > they were to move to a Linux setup. I sat in on a meeting about 5 years > ago to hear out a RehHat re-seller's pitch. Most school boards are > almost at the break point and will be actively looking for new > networking/desktop solutions. Common all over the world and if the school can see that the software used at school is as friendly on the home computer... > > So, compatibility with educational software. The distro should also be > an easy install for everyone and GUI run. If we are going to make it and > contend with other distros, the majority of users want a GUI run install > where everything works right away. There should be as little fiddling > around as possible. Install (15-20 minutes), then, register user > accounts, shares for accounts, re-name the computer to instill a sense > of ownership to the user (rather than having your computer called > "localhost" all the time, and then you are done! (Cups and 3d should be > installed automatically during the install phase). Make the install as > easy as possible. When I started using Linux (Mandrake was my first distro and the reason I abandoned Windows) MCC to me, a nongeek, was the killer app. OpenSuSE's Yast is/was the only real competition. The ability to administer everything from a GUI is killer for the Ex-windows user. > > The next is a distro with games and solid multi-player game setups that > work. Get the distro to play nice with WOW and other popular games. This > will kill the competition and grab kids attention. Have a Mageia
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
2010/9/30 Oliver Burger : > Graham Lauder schrieb am 2010-09-30 >> That is an interesting question, from a personal point of view I would like >> the Mageia team to throw developer weight behind Konqueror, my favourite >> browser, especially if we aim at "Best KDE OS". With Opera as a non-free >> alternative. > That is not a good idea. As a web-developer I can teel you, there's only one > browser, which can compete with Firefox's rendering of html and javascript. > And that's Chromium. I agree to Oliver. While I'm working with Chromium browser I do a lot of testing of web pages with html/php/js with many different browsers on different systems, even Windows 7. Konqueror has never been a friend of mine and it is not going to be. Too slow, too many hickups with pages all other browsers have no problems with, etc. I know that personal preferences are not the same as reasonable arguments but those preferences have grown because of reasons. BTW: Anne wrote earlier in this thread that the problems with Mozilla are solved, if so then this issue is not an issue any more, wobo ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)
As long as you want to install all the updates, and even if your connection fluctuates and stops during the download, the order doesn't matter much. If you can't download all the packages at the first attempt, you just have to download the packages in several steps. Rare are the cases when you urge to update the smallest package and can't wait for the others to be downloaded. And when that's the case, you just have to select the interesting package first, install it and then download the other packages. 2010/9/30 Oliver Burger > André Machado schrieb am 2010-09-30 > > I'm asking if is possible "force" > > or "make" URPMI create this "groups", elect the smaller one and download > > it, from the smaller to bigger package, install it and download the > second > > smaller package group in this same order. > The question is: why? > > Oliver > ___ > Mageia-dev mailing list > Mageia-dev@mageia.org > https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev > ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
Graham Lauder schrieb am 2010-09-30 > That is an interesting question, from a personal point of view I would like > the Mageia team to throw developer weight behind Konqueror, my favourite > browser, especially if we aim at "Best KDE OS". With Opera as a non-free > alternative. That is not a good idea. As a web-developer I can teel you, there's only one browser, which can compete with Firefox's rendering of html and javascript. And that's Chromium. Oliver ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 08:19:11 André Machado wrote: > Years ago, the GNU project recompiled Firefox with a new name - Iceweasel - > what is now used on Debian-based distros. Now, the GNU project has your > own navigator: IceCat. > > Reason was a issue with Firefox logo and names, what are trademarks of > Mozilla Foundation. > > So, my question: Mageia may use the original Firefox? or will we leave for > any of these "alternative" compilations? That is an interesting question, from a personal point of view I would like the Mageia team to throw developer weight behind Konqueror, my favourite browser, especially if we aim at "Best KDE OS". With Opera as a non-free alternative. >From a marketing POV however, Firefox has brand power, one does not throw that away lightly. -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
> > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > > better. > > Well, > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, > use > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others > distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using > another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will > appear > as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at > newbies. > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users > to > report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to > basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting > in less quality, and a less sustainable community. > > Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". > See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ > "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest > technology" "software you love". > > Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can > be. > > Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/ > they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used > by > a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast", > which is more positive. > > And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the > start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community. > > -- > Michael Scherer Oh my god you're damn right on this one Michael. I agree and +1000 on this one. You see how perception is really important and we must send the right message to future and potential contributors because every new user is a potential contributor. Let's not forget that fact. Patrick Dubeau (alias DaaX) - Webmaster MLO http://www.mandrivalinux-online.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)
André Machado schrieb am 2010-09-30 > I'm asking if is possible "force" > or "make" URPMI create this "groups", elect the smaller one and download > it, from the smaller to bigger package, install it and download the second > smaller package group in this same order. The question is: why? Oliver ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
> > As a note, I spoke with Pascal Chevrel today from Mozilla Europe. He > told me that Debian was going back to use Firefox. Legal issues are > solved > WOW! STOP THE MACHINES!!! Have you more details? :D Whell, the e-mail is: trademarks at mozilla dot com . Sorry ;) . ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)
I guess what current Mandriva downloads and installs by "dependency groups", eg: if a package A must be updated and A depends of B and C, what will be updated too, URPMI downloads B, C and A and install them. (Someone to packaging team can explain better?) I'm asking if is possible "force" or "make" URPMI create this "groups", elect the smaller one and download it, from the smaller to bigger package, install it and download the second smaller package group in this same order. Of course, it won't install a group with incomplete dependences. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
As a note, I spoke with Pascal Chevrel today from Mozilla Europe. He told me that Debian was going back to use Firefox. Legal issues are solved --- Anne ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
I wasn't reading well X Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
>From what I understand, to use the name and official logo, we can not change the binaries. So far so good, but this part caught my attention: "In addition, if you are distributing Mozilla binaries yourself, and wish to use the Mozilla Mark(s), you may not (a) disable, modify or otherwise interfere with any installation mechanism contained in a Mozilla product; (b) use any such installation mechanism to install any plug-ins, themes, extensions, software, or items other than the Mozilla product; or (c) _use or provide any program, mechanism or process (other than an installation mechanism contained in the Mozilla product) to install such product_. Any use of a meta-installer would require our prior written permission." Considering that the browser will be packaged in an RPM, I believe that we should seek permission for the Mozilla Foundation. Fortunately, the very FAQ points to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Marketing&format=trademark and has a e-mail adress: tradema...@mozilla.com . So, I guess that one of project maintainers should oficially send them a message asking about this. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)
André Machado wrote: > Can you reprogram URPMI to download packages from smaller to larger? > > Given that you want to be installing them as they are downloaded, won't the inter-package dependencies dictate the real order ? I mean, you can try installing the smaller ones first, but the first one that requires a really large one is going to have to download that before continuing. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
> Ease of use should not be restricted to newbies. People use to think that being advance user or a "hacker" is the same to be masochistic X I mean, no matter how advance you are, why will you want to type a houndred lines of text in a console if you can point and click 5 times in a beautiful window with buttons, icons, colors and maybe animations? "Easy" doesn't mean "made for stupid people". For me, "easy" is "more time enjoying, less suffering" XD Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 30/09/2010 20:41, Michael Scherer a écrit : > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > >> "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is >> better. > > Well, > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others > distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using > another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear > as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at > newbies. > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to > report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to > basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting > in less quality, and a less sustainable community. > > Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". > See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ > "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest > technology" "software you love". > > Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can > be. > > Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/ > they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used by > a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast", > which is more positive. > > And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the > start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community. > +1 Ease of use should not be restricted to newbies. Sometimes, you just want a standard system that work, can connect to the internet in many different situations, etc. (because you use it every day for your business, and all your colleagues too). In other times, you require a system much more tailored (e.g. server or developer computer), on which you can afford to spend some time to configure/maintain it. Mageia should accomodate both. Daniel ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
[Mageia-dev] An idea for improve URPMI ;)
one of the great advantages that I see that has URPMI about APT-GET is that while the updater downloads all the Debian packages first and then install them, the updater will Mandriva downloading and installing the package groups while , which makes the process faster. However, we know that the download speed of connections is never constant and is full of ups and downs. Thus, if a connection can download 100MB in one hour, this does not mean that this will be downloaded at this period. The connection may even hang during the download process. There goes my idea: Can you reprogram URPMI to download packages from smaller to larger? Let me explain: imagine there is 100MB of updates that need to be downloaded. Say the user takes 1 hour to download everything. Suppose that the connection hangs after 20 minutes of downloading. Suppose further that the packages to be downloaded there is one of 32MB. If download process starts to this bigger package, when connection hangs, user will have only one - or part of one - package downloaded. But if downloading starts from smaller packages - those with a few KB - when he become offline, he'll have downloaded more packages and, perhaps, installed a lot of stuff. Of course, should be an option to user chooses how he wants download updates. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 19:19 +, André Machado a écrit : > Years ago, the GNU project recompiled Firefox with a new name - Iceweasel - > what > is now used on Debian-based distros. Now, the GNU project has your own > navigator: IceCat. > > Reason was a issue with Firefox logo and names, what are trademarks of Mozilla > Foundation. > > So, my question: Mageia may use the original Firefox? or will we leave for any > of these "alternative" compilations? I think the question is more for the mozilla corporation than us, so I think you should ask them and tell us what they think ? -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
If I'm reading well, Mozilla allows distribution of Firefox as "Firefox" if you don't change it (I mean, code). https://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html Software Distributions Unaltered Binaries You may distribute unchanged official binaries (i.e., the installer file available for download for each platform (code + config) and not the program executable) downloaded from www.mozilla.com or www.mozilla.org to anyone in any way, subject to governing law, without receiving any further permission from Mozilla. If you want to distribute the unchanged official binaries using the Mozilla Marks, you may do so, without receiving any further permission from Mozilla, as long as you comply with this Trademark Policy and you distribute them without charge. However, you must not remove or change any part of the official binary, including the Mozilla Marks. On your website or in other materials, you may truthfully state that the software you are providing is an unmodified version of a Mozilla application, keeping in mind the overall guidelines for the use of Mozilla Marks in printed materials, detailed above. We suggest that, if you choose to provide visitors to your website the opportunity to download Mozilla product, you do so by means of a link to our site, to help ensure faster, more reliable downloads. (See the section on Linking, below.) If you choose to distribute Mozilla binaries yourself, you should make the latest stable version available (of course, you probably want to do so as well). If you compile Mozilla unmodified source code (including code and config files in the installer) and do not charge for it, you do not need additional permission from Mozilla to use the relevant Mozilla Mark(s) for your compiled version. So that users get the latest code and security releases, we encourage you to always distribute the most current official release. The notification requirements of the Mozilla Public License have been met for our binaries, so although it's a good idea to do so, you are not required to ship the source code along with the binaries. In addition, if you are distributing Mozilla binaries yourself, and wish to use the Mozilla Mark(s), you may not (a) disable, modify or otherwise interfere with any installation mechanism contained in a Mozilla product; (b) use any such installation mechanism to install any plug-ins, themes, extensions, software, or items other than the Mozilla product; or (c) use or provide any program, mechanism or process (other than an installation mechanism contained in the Mozilla product) to install such product. Any use of a meta-installer would require our prior written permission. If you are using the Mozilla Mark(s) for the unaltered binaries you are distributing, you may not charge for that product. By not charging, we mean the Mozilla product must be without cost and its distribution (whether by download or other media) may not be subject to a fee, or tied to subscribing to or purchasing a service, or the collection of personal information. If you want to sell the product, you may do so, but you must call that product by another name—one unrelated to Mozilla or any of the Mozilla Marks (see the sections on "Modifications" and "Related Software" below). Remember that we do not want the public to be confused. Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
[Mageia-dev] Can Firefox be included in Mageia?
Years ago, the GNU project recompiled Firefox with a new name - Iceweasel - what is now used on Debian-based distros. Now, the GNU project has your own navigator: IceCat. Reason was a issue with Firefox logo and names, what are trademarks of Mozilla Foundation. So, my question: Mageia may use the original Firefox? or will we leave for any of these "alternative" compilations? ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > better. Well, saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at newbies. In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting in less quality, and a less sustainable community. Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest technology" "software you love". Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can be. Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/ they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used by a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast", which is more positive. And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
> So the first time survey will likely disappear for now ( and maybe > forever, depending on the need and suggestions of marketing ). > Since 1st time what I installed Mandriva Free, system performs a survey at 1st boot and put two icons at desktop to sign up to Mandriva Club and to buy PowerPack version and I do not know if someone complains that. Honestly, do a poll with the user before he or she uses the system for the first time is a shot in the foot. I think some should appear in the taskbar notification inviting the user to answer some questions when he was online a few days after you have installed the system. Anyway, this is not the goal of the Welcome Center. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?
atilla ontas a écrit : 2010/9/29 André Machado: I'd say that Gustavo is right on this one. What do we really want : a setup/configuration tool to help newbies or a welcome page to help newbies recognized what the different apps in linux are for? Maybe both: we can start showing a page with information and put it an "Advanced options" button what leads to other page with setup/configuration tools. But: place setup/configurations tools in Mageia Welcome Center won't does not become redundant MCC? Or maybe Mageia Welcome center should be a part of MCC? _ Welcome Center or Kaptan should more desktop/application assistance tool and not replace MCC. This tool should be limited to network connection and screen resolution configuration on system level. But should i.e. change theme, icons, default web browser setting etc. _ I would say that the welcome centre should be informational, with links to the MCC (or subpage of the MCC) where appropriate. (To be renamed to the "Mageia" Configuration Centre.) Kaptan would remain useful for configuration of the desktop for KDE users, just as the Gnome configuration tool would be useful the Gnome users. It might be useful for the welcome centre to have a link to the appropriate desktop configuration tool, but I would suggest letting such tools handle any detailed information/configuration associated with their respective environnement. This would provide a better user experience : no conflicts between the welcome centre, not necessarily up to date, and the desktop configuration tool. And enhance the MCC where it would be useful. Like this, no matter what the desktop is chosen (KDE, Gnome, or a lighter variety), the new user would have full access to common configuration tools. There should also be links to the wiki for more details, and to the support forums. Note that the user will not necessarily have Internet access when using the welcome centre, so that the welcome centre should be complete enough to enable basic configuration. Also note that already the Mandriva installation cd/dvd's have a fairly complete set of basic configuration options, which are not necessarily fully understood at this point. So the welcome centre should be an opportunity to refine such configuration, with all the information necessary for both beginner and advanced users, for basic configuration. But again, with the actual configuration handled by the existing MCC. Note that the different desktops favour different applications, and users may have different applications installed. So the welcome centre should adapt to the differences, so this tool should be carefully developped with this in mind. The Linux environnement is one of choice, not the "one-size-fits-all" mentality of the Microsoft world. my 2 cents :) - André (andre999) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?
2010/9/30 Gustavo Giampaoli : > > You can go to MCC anytime, but Kaptan should appear just once after > the first boot. For me this is the key reason to implement Kaptan. After first boot it is the right start for the newbie, it can be clicked away by the advanced user and it will not annoy you by popping up all the time. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?
2010/9/30 Gustavo Giampaoli : >> Here's Kaptan page (SVN link is wrong) > > Sorry: http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/masaustu/kaptan/index.html > > > > Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) > ___ > Mageia-dev mailing list > Mageia-dev@mageia.org > https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev > It written in python and i think it should easly ported to GTK for GNOME or XFCE desktops. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] Im Auftrag von Gustavo Giampaoli > Every distro, with the > right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. >From a logical point of you, your right. But people aren't logical. Ship a distribution with a background with balloons and some fancy window decoration and kids will love it, while other will never try it. It's stupid, because you can easily change it but nevertheless, that's it like it work. So for me the question of our main market is a question of who we want to attract. And I think Graham aims at this to, because we need a logo, main colors, a website, ... . All these parts should attract the people of our main market. What packages we ship doesn't really matters, because as you said "Linux is Linux". So, who do we want to attract? Regards, TeaAge ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?
> Here's Kaptan page (SVN link is wrong) Sorry: http://www.pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/masaustu/kaptan/index.html Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?
> I think the welcome centre is a great idea, but I don't see how this Kaptan > tool would differ from the Mandriva configuration centre (MCC), long > available in Mandriva for easy gui configuration. > Since Mageia is a fork, we will already have that. (At least initially.) Kaptan doesn't replace MCC. See, you always can go to MCC and change whatever you want. But you must know what you are looking for. Kaptan starts after the very first boot, and takes you step-by-step to configure most common / basic settings so you can feel comfortable and ready after Kaptan's steps are finished. And everything without leaving Kaptan's window. You can go to MCC anytime, but Kaptan should appear just once after the first boot. Here's Kaptan page (SVN link is wrong) Here's the right SVN link: http://websvn.pardus.org.tr/uludag/trunk/kde/kaptan/ Eventually, could be ported to Mageia. Or at least, developers could take a look and evaluate if it's "portable" to Mageia. Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia WelcomeCenter?
Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit : I found both aproaches really atractive and useful. Kaptan looks very intuitive, easy and centralize most (if not all) the most common and basic settings that a person with basic knowledge could need after the first boot. However, wobo's aproach is also important. What happends if Kaptan-like-tool hangs in the first boot and close? That's where info page will be really really useful. This is an extreme example, but I think I presents the idea well. A newbie will be almost "naked and screaming" without to know where to go for help. But, if Kaptan-like-tool doesn't hang and works fine, it's always important to let people know where they have to go if anything goes wrong or where to meet other user. You never know when a user could become an important contributor. Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) _ I think the welcome centre is a great idea, but I don't see how this Kaptan tool would differ from the Mandriva configuration centre (MCC), long available in Mandriva for easy gui configuration. Since Mageia is a fork, we will already have that. (At least initially.) As well, there is an easy tool for minor configuration of the Gnome desktop, which I presume has an equivalent under KDE. Is the idea essentially equivalent to enhancing the MCC for a more complete range of settings to configure ? - André (andre999) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 17:03:30, Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit : > > > We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care > > > > about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is > > unfamiliar > > > > to our distro: > > > > It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength. > > I agree. If you have being in linux for a little time, you learn that > all distros are Linux are Linux are Linux. Every distro, with the > right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. Maybe some > uses DEB, other RPM, Gentoo uses ports, Pardus Pisi. But these are > small differences. The truth is any linux-based OS can be whatever > user whants. > > So, Mageia should say "this is is my target, my zone. I can do all, > but this is what I do best" > > Cheers! > > The names Mandrake, and now Mageia, make me think about ease of use : "everything works like magic". The Mandriva Control Center is one of the strength of Mandriva and now Mageia. I hope it will remains such. You change a parameter, and "voilà", it works like expected. (Of course you still can tweak configuration files by yourself, but you can do that in any distribution). One of the tools we use most is "drakconnect" in console, for our customers (hospitals). They want to change the gateway, or IP address, and we don't have to make them tweak any configuration file (many wouldn't know how to do !) : just issue the drakconnect command, follow the steps, and everything works like a charm. Want to open a new port in the firewall ? Just run drakfirewall and type in the port you have to open. The drakxtools, and the ability to chose between different desktops (KDE, GNOME, XFCE...), are what I value most in Mandriva. Sure, many will have different opinions, now you have mine. I saw people on forums say "at last we don't have to use the command line to configure everything. I went to ubuntu forums and they always give commands like 'sudo this', 'sudo that' to solve various problems". Don't get me wrong : I use the command line very often. But I like that in Mandriva if you don't want to, often you don't have to use it. Don't know if it makes the discussion about marketing position go forward... Regards Samuel Verschelde ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] A new office suite ?
Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit : we can have both packages :) +1 Of course. It's the most "logical" decision. But I think Graham means which office suite will be the "default" one shipped in the installation media. I like the idea of supporting LibreOffice. If anything goes wrong, you always can do an "urpmi openoffice". It should be fast if LibreOffice and OpenOffice are, right now almost the same thing. Packages for both should be almost the same. Am I right? Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) Correct me if I'm wrong, but the go-openoffice version was the default and only version available on Mandriva, and not the officiel version from Sun (and now Oracle). Admittedly, the officiel version corrected bugs more quickly, but the go- version seemed to add more enhancements. I think that a large part of the problem with the officiel version was that Sun insisted on having a signed copyright assignment before any contribution - even for bug reports. So my bug reports went to the go- version (or via Mandriva). - André (andre999), long-time user of Openoffice (usually the officiel version). ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
> We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care > > about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is > unfamiliar > > to our distro: > > It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength. I agree. If you have being in linux for a little time, you learn that all distros are Linux are Linux are Linux. Every distro, with the right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. Maybe some uses DEB, other RPM, Gentoo uses ports, Pardus Pisi. But these are small differences. The truth is any linux-based OS can be whatever user whants. So, Mageia should say "this is is my target, my zone. I can do all, but this is what I do best" Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia, Welcome Center?
Just a remark. I think It can configure users desktop to it's needs. It's not a everyday task, its application of one perhaps several launches but it's usefull. So if it will setup keyboard\network\mouse\workspace for me I would be happy. And if this app will ask me to comment do I like it I will write no matter only bad or good feelings I have. Is it a good feedback and welcome? -- Cheers, Dante. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia, Welcome Center?
Great idea! As I see it, it could be a start for everything and everyone, not only new users. I think good ideas of this is: - to associate user on application\action - to provide offline\online help - to have all updates on one hand (new e-mails, RSS, weather, package updates, etc.) So I think it could be one configurable application that provide some blocks. It can be easily autostarted or not, just as user wants. And it can help us improving distro providing feedback. And I have an idea of creating something like first-time-tour. New people have different wills of their new OS. They have different potential and knowledges about IT and etc. So application can ask a few questions to deside where to start a tour. So if you are a hacker you can go down exact to core, and if you just want to know how to browse internet and listen to music you will not see suck a geek stuff. -- Cheers, Dante. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Choosing a target market is more than making a listing of your competitors' markets and combining some words to create a unique-sounding market. And it's more that guessing that some as-yet-unidentified market can be grepped from the imagination. For Mageia, it's an expression of leadership. It won't be found in a mail list survey or a popularity poll; it will be found in the Mageia leadership. There are many, many Linux distros in existence. Each has its own take on kernel patches, packaging managers, desktops, multimedia, programming languages, management tools, color schemes and so on. These things are superficial since once installed, every Linux distro is doing essentially the same thing. The choice of those little pieces and their development is what excites and motivates the people that put together the distro The effectiveness of all these pieces is what excites and motivates the user of the distro. Meeting the needs of the end user determines if the distro will be popular or not. But it's picking the correct end user to target that determines the ultimate success of the distro. Mandriva never figured out who its end user was or what its market was and as a result tried to be everything to everybody and failed, not because it was a bad distro (it remains one of the best), but because it never had focus, it never knew its market. One of the most important things that the Mageia leadership needs to determine is the focus, the goal, the entire point of the existence of Mageia. The leadership needs to decide. They need to do it because they need the investment in order to be motivated to lead, manage and build the distro. They need to do it because it demonstrates that they are capable of leading us and are worth investing in. They need to do it because it needs to be done now. -- Hoyt ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Kira wrote: > Yes, Mageia or Mandrake/Mandriva is for all purpose, but every distro > can be all-purpose. The point is: There's no distinctive difference > toward other distribution. The failure of Mandriva SA business can be > connected to many factor, which I believe part of the problem is that > the product don't stands out Kira, Exactly my thoughts. That's why the point proposed by Graham is so important. to start product differentiation. And because it is Linux, it was/is/will be all-purpose. Salut, Sinner ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
在 Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:18:08 +0800, Samuel Verschelde 寫道: Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:05:26, Kira a écrit : So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? "Simple to use yet powerful" : - newbie-friendly (yes ubuntu is on this market, but to me Mandriva does it better) - powerful - comprehensive (many packages available in many fields) Then nothing prevents from saying also, for example : "Mageia, ideal for music making", with news, screenshots, people sharing their experience, howtos... "Mageia, easy yet powerful on servers", ... You said nothing about my concern that Mandriva may be seen only as, say, a distribution for education. What about that ? All purpose means no one knows what the distro wants to do. Making a specific version for education/small business or whatever won't makes the distro seems only focus on one thing, but a proof of full feature OS. The point is: you have to emphasis something different, not something others also owns/easily achieved/already well-implemented/advertised. I don't agree with the way ubuntu flushing the whole board of different purpose but actually same thing strategy, but it does makes people knows what to choose to fit their need, which is important to makes people accept your product. We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is unfamiliar to our distro: It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Samuel Verschelde wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:09:25, Frank Griffin a écrit : > >> These need not all be available on the same release date. Whatever we >> decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the >> others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them. >> >> > And then we advertise them as much as we can, without forgetting to stress > that those are just specialized versions of the core "all-purpose" Mageia > distribution. The "family targeted" distribution may be one major sub-project > in Mageia if this is seen as a real "market" to target. > > A follow-on idea is to expand the "Install Updates" portion of the install to allow the installation over the network of "task-"-type virtual RPMs intended to customize the system for specific purposes. This would be a network version of the same idea. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:09:25, Frank Griffin a écrit : > These need not all be available on the same release date. Whatever we > decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the > others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them. > And then we advertise them as much as we can, without forgetting to stress that those are just specialized versions of the core "all-purpose" Mageia distribution. The "family targeted" distribution may be one major sub-project in Mageia if this is seen as a real "market" to target. Regards Samuel Verschelde ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:05:26, Kira a écrit : > So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? "Simple to use yet powerful" : - newbie-friendly (yes ubuntu is on this market, but to me Mandriva does it better) - powerful - comprehensive (many packages available in many fields) Then nothing prevents from saying also, for example : "Mageia, ideal for music making", with news, screenshots, people sharing their experience, howtos... "Mageia, easy yet powerful on servers", ... You said nothing about my concern that Mandriva may be seen only as, say, a distribution for education. What about that ? Regards Samuel Verschelde ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : >> >> The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia >> could be >> marketed as the "Family Distro". > I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible > with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we > could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia. I think that these are endeavors for an entity which is exactly what we've just got done saying Mageia *isn't*, namely a commercial venture. Currently, the package inventory of Mandriva is fairly all-inclusive, and I don't think we should abandon any specific interest group. Mandriva may have to do this to remain commercially viable - we do not. However, let me try to translate your desires into a more technical objective that would meet the need.. Traditionally, the MDV ISO-building process has been complex, not well-documented, and difficult for anyone outside of MDV to use. I think Mageia should have a simplified process for package selection that would enable community users to assemble install ISOs geared to specific needs, such as those you mention. This should be as easy as constructing an ISO using k3b or brasero, but would need to be driven by the RPM information (e.g. requires). Actually, a lot of the RPMDrake design could be used (if not much of the actual code) to allow a user to drag and drop Application Categories or specific packages. As with any CD/DVD burner, the GUI would keep track of whether you were over the limit for the volume size, so that you could then pare the package list. This would allow us to have as many ISOs (or ISO sets) as there are people interested in maintaining the individual content lists. You could have a server version, an office desktop version, a games version, an education version, a power-user version, etc. It would also end the endless bickering among those who want every media combination from a stub-based full network install to a fully self-contained multi-DVD or even Blu-Ray install. You want it, you design it, you press the button and build it. It should not be too difficult to write a utility that goes through a content list and automatically updates the package names to newer versions, so maintenance could be minimal. Of course, you'd need to fire up the build utility to see if there are new package requirements or if you've exceeded your space constraint. These need not all be available on the same release date. Whatever we decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them. Another idea that fits with this is the concept of a two-tiered install: create a single general-purpose bare-bones ISO that installs a common baseline of packages, and create a variety of secondary install ISOs geared to specific audiences. People would download the common one plus whichever other(s) they wanted. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
I also think that it's not that Mageia will lose the ability to be a power server, or a development platform. It's more about "which will be the default installation" or "who will Mageia target with the standard installation". You always can, during installation, change for the packages custom selection, or mark on the different options like "server" or "development platform", etc. Or after installation, with urpmi and repos you can build whatever you need / want. In Mandriva, you always could build a desktop or a power server. It all depends of the user. Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
在 Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:34:26 +0800, Samuel Verschelde 寫道: I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that to me Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution. Which means : - suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category, Mandriva is my desktop of choice) - suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux) - suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've got more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french hospitals, and several workstations here) I know there is a difference between saying that the distro is "suitable" for something and its marketing targeting , but I still remember people telling me "Mandriva is a distro for newbies, not for power users or businesses". I want to avoid this at all prices. If I were to choose right now, I would say : advertise Mageia as a generalist distro suitable for many needs just like Mandriva is/was, and then have specific compaigns to highlight some specific usages : in educationnal fields, server usage, workstation usage, etc. I think what Graham want to express is that Mageia got to find her own position in the market, if we hope Mageia could be better promoted. Yes, Mageia or Mandrake/Mandriva is for all purpose, but every distro can be all-purpose. The point is: There's no distinctive difference toward other distribution. The failure of Mandriva SA business can be connected to many factor, which I believe part of the problem is that the product don't stands out among competitors. All- purpose is good, but some personality is also important. "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is better. We have to find a specific portion of the market to survive, with something stands out among other competitors like educational/small business/suited for... blah, blah, blah. Just saying that Mageia can do anything would make new comers wonder: So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? We can still list out what Mageia can do, but some personality is definitely needed, not just "All-purpose", that's confusing and would makes Mageia no difference comparing to other distro, since you can't speak out your major difference in aspect of Market share. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Hi, I am a Windows/MS based web apps and software developer. When I have chosen Mandriva (about 10 years ago) for my home PC, my criteria was related to usability and reliability, and the community was a very important criterion. Also easy setup and forget was in my mind and I was pleased by its plenty of packages. I will always look at Linux from the software developer point of view though... ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
I like very much the professional approach and analysis of Graham. And I agree pretty much. However, a "family" distro means, for me, the married man / woman + kids. And that's where I find Marc's approach correct. If you wan that the whole family could enjoy the experience, you must provide to the distro the "tools-for-common-tasks" like office suite, Internet, IM, etc etc, educational software and security-for-kids tools, and of course, solid game experience. If you don't include games, probably you'll have dual-boot PC's instead of Megaia-only PCs. There will be cases where dual-boot will be inevitable (maybe because dad needs a particular tool and Wine is not an option), but we're talking about the majority. Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 15:34:26, Samuel Verschelde a écrit : > > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 13:21:04, Graham Lauder a écrit : > > Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole > > but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular > > Demographics. For instance: > > OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market > > Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market > > CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits > > Fedora at the Computing Professional > > > > Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being > > the > > Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the > > whole family could use it. > > I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that to me > Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution. > > Which means : > - suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category, Mandriva is > my desktop of choice) > - suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux) > - suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've got > more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french hospitals, and > several workstations here) + suitable for family of course : parental control in MCC, my wife uses it without any problem... Regards Samuel ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] Im Auftrag von Graham Lauder Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. September 2010 13:21 An: Mageia development mailing-list Betreff: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets >A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in >fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic. >If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle >point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of >Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. This point is a bit difficult to me, as we (as the community) are the internal and external in one. We create the distribution for us (the whole community) and try enlarge the community. For example, afaik nearly 75% of the mandriva user (and there for Mageia user) use KDE. If we for example aim an group of people which KDE doesn't fit, we will probably loose more users the win new users. That's the tricky part of a community distro I think ;) >The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be >marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference >when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. Although I don't count myself to this group, I'm totally fine with the idea and see that it is a nearly untapped market. But on the otherside: how big could this market be? >So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would >be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed >as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. Here I see some problems: If we release a LiveCD and a DVD (like Mandriva does), there will be enough space on the LiveCD for extra software. On the DVD there is enough space I think, but is it for example really necessary to ship to office suits, just to define our aimed market? >Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and >how to make it Net safe. That's a really cool idea! As we also debate about a welcome center, there should definitely be a link in it, to that kind of documentation. I think that the normal home user and a young family have nearly the same requirements. Both need an easy to install and maintain and use system (yes I know: who doesn't want this). Maybe we can create a distribution which fits such requirements and specialize to the family with meta-packages, special documentation and tools for them? Regards, TeaAge ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 13:21:04, Graham Lauder a écrit : > Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole > but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular > Demographics. For instance: > OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market > Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market > CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits > Fedora at the Computing Professional > > Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being > the > Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the > whole family could use it. I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that to me Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution. Which means : - suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category, Mandriva is my desktop of choice) - suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux) - suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've got more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french hospitals, and several workstations here) I know there is a difference between saying that the distro is "suitable" for something and its marketing targeting , but I still remember people telling me "Mandriva is a distro for newbies, not for power users or businesses". I want to avoid this at all prices. If I were to choose right now, I would say : advertise Mageia as a generalist distro suitable for many needs just like Mandriva is/was, and then have specific compaigns to highlight some specific usages : in educationnal fields, server usage, workstation usage, etc. Regards Samuel Verschelde ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
2010/9/30 Michael Scherer > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 13:56 +0300, Marek Laane a écrit : > > I rather think that if at all the survey should be an option not > > something > > you inevitably get - something for people who feel they are ready to > > contribute, give back; otherwise it'd be just a nuisance. > > Of course. IIRC there was a checkbox "do not answer" on Mandriva survey. > I think I remember that fcrozat told me there was a problem on small > screen as the checkbox was hidden, but that was clearly a bug. > > Anyway, I think that without server side interface, this will not work, > and before asking who our users are, we need to have softwares and > users :) > > So the first time survey will likely disappear for now ( and maybe > forever, depending on the need and suggestions of marketing ). > > -- > Michael Scherer > > Yeah but what I meant was that Mandriva shows survey and lets user to decline. That I called nuisance. IMHO much better is to let user decide if s/he wants to take it at all, e.g. having on welcome screen "Let me take survey" or something. Marek Laane ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get our heads around Vision and Mission Statement. Everyone brainstormed what they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the Projects Vision and mission statement could head. The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our primary target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should be aimed. A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic. If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular Demographics. For instance: OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits Fedora at the Computing Professional Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the whole family could use it. So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and how to make it Net safe. I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of branding. Comments? Cheers GL I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.For example, when marketing the OS, emphasis on the distro that can carry your kids through their educational paths with such packages as OpenOffice (soon to be LibreOffice -- make sure the MSWorks plug-in is also included) compatible with MSOffice; GIMP similar to Photoshop and some plugins are compatible; Freemind mindmapping; etc. If Mageia concentrated on making these software packages work solidly then you could have a good run at competing with other linux distros in the educational field. BTW, in Canada, many school boards still use the Novel Netware setups and they are just now in the midst of planning out its replacement. My school board for example will have to replace close to 10,000 units if they were to move to a Linux setup. I sat in on a meeting about 5 years ago to hear out a RehHat re-seller's pitch. Most school boards are almost at the break point and will be actively looking for new networking/desktop solutions. So, compatibility with educational software. The distro should also be an easy install for everyone and GUI run. If we are going to make it and contend with other distros, the majority of users want a GUI run install where everything works right away. There should be as little fiddling around as possible. Install (15-20 minutes), then, register user accounts, shares for accounts, re-name the computer to instill a sense of ownership to the user (rather than having your computer called "localhost" all the time, and then you are done! (Cups and 3d should be installed automatically during the install phase). Make the install as easy as possible. The next is a distro with games and solid multi-player game setups that work. Get the distro to play nice with WOW and other popular games. This will kill the competition and grab kids attention. Have a Mageia games advocate(s) who periodically send out "snazzy" e-newsletters and a "Magei Games Korner" on the website to foster gamesmanship on the distro. Get the kids talking about the "rock-solid" install of WOW (for example) using Wine -- the distro should come "hard wired" to play! and rock! Have a great advocacy group that will stand up to Mageia bashing and hand out comparative studies on the distro's performance and keep the name in the headlines with such sites as LinuxToday.com. Be proactive rather reactive to Linux possibilities of use where it can rationalized as a good replacement desktop distro. Sorry for the long note. Cheers Marc ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 14:53 +0300, atilla ontas a écrit : > 2010/9/30 Wolfgang Bornath : > > Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway. > > 1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth. > > 2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any > > real information anyway. > > 3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user > > satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the > > forums earlier than by surveys. > > > > So, at the end of the day, > > What do you get by surveys to take away? > > More work to implement and to read them, that's all. > I mean what wobo has written. Besides, forum posts are more effective > way to track users opinions about distro and applications. Well, this depend on the question. A survey could simply give data about "do you use it in professional environment" or not, and therefor see where people use the distribution, and where they don't use and try to do some effort to fix problem in the area where they don't use. This could also help to decide on the type of features that must be prioritized. As I said, that's (imho) also listening to community to know this. This can also help to get information about country, ie, if we see there is almost no user in some country, is there a reason, should we try to help the community there ? > I always > hated this survey thing on Mandriva. Also it feels something like a > registration to a propierty application or validate a windows install. > Many users in Mandriva Turkiye community asked me if they *must* fill > survey and register their e-mails. Most of them were new to GNU Linux. For sure, if such survey is used ( and again, that's just a possibility ), we will have to keep in mind that it must be clearer on the survey what it the goal, and it must be clear that most people do not see it is optional. I do not advocate to have it by default and forcing user, but I think that restricting feedback to forum will miss lots of people. And the lack of feedback was something people were complaining for at Mandriva. There is a balance between waiting that people come with us, and potentially lose some without knowing why, or asking to everybody, and basically annoy people because we asked feedback. And that's not easy to find the right spot. > I think we should decide if we will implement a Welcome Center/Kaptan > to distro and if it is an informative screen or basic configuration > tool or both for newbies. I' m not interested in filling the blanks on > a survey. Also a survey would be introduced in main web site. Any > interested user should fill it. Such survey on computer side could also help to get data about hardware. For example, I think kernel developers would love to have a list of people who are registered testers, with their hardware, to contact them to say "here is a bug, but I do not have the hardware, I think this rpm can fix it, can you give me feedback". This would solve the future problem of hardware QA, because while Mandriva had a labs with lots of stuff, we don't. But this requires that people register, ie give their email and their hardware data. And I think it will be more maybe more effective to ask at install time than to wait for people to register by themselves each computer. But of course, this can be seen as too intrusive so great care must be taken. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
[Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get our heads around Vision and Mission Statement. Everyone brainstormed what they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the Projects Vision and mission statement could head. The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our primary target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should be aimed. A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic. If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular Demographics. For instance: OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits Fedora at the Computing Professional Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the whole family could use it. So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and how to make it Net safe. I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of branding. Comments? Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 08:06, Thorsten van Lil wrote: > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] Im > Auftrag von Wolfgang Bornath > >>2010/9/30 atilla ontas : >>> >>> Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a >>> company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is >>> about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies. >>> > >>Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway. >>1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth. >>2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any >>real information anyway. >>3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user >>satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the >>forums earlier than by surveys. >> >>So, at the end of the day, >>What do you get by surveys to take away? >>More work to implement and to read them, that's all. > > Surveys are quite reasonable. You get a standardized conclusion. Many people > use a distribution without ever being registered at a forum. In a forum you > will only get the extremes (good and bad) but not the small papercuts that > may disturb the user, ... . There are many reasons for surveys (ask some > marketing guys or psychologists). > > But that’s for the fine tuning. We can think about such things, if we > released some versions. And I think it never should bother the user. Maybe a > button in the welcome center "Your opinion is important for use" but not > with a autostart after the first boot. > > Regards, > TeaAge > Ok, so no survey, because they're a pain. How about that Welcome Center now? I mentioned the Linux Mint example earlier, it seems flexible to me... They use HTML and WebKit, i think, to render it. We could probably include links to applications too. -- later, Robert Xu ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] Im Auftrag von Wolfgang Bornath >2010/9/30 atilla ontas : >> >> Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a >> company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is >> about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies. >> >Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway. >1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth. >2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any >real information anyway. >3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user >satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the >forums earlier than by surveys. > >So, at the end of the day, >What do you get by surveys to take away? >More work to implement and to read them, that's all. Surveys are quite reasonable. You get a standardized conclusion. Many people use a distribution without ever being registered at a forum. In a forum you will only get the extremes (good and bad) but not the small papercuts that may disturb the user, ... . There are many reasons for surveys (ask some marketing guys or psychologists). But thats for the fine tuning. We can think about such things, if we released some versions. And I think it never should bother the user. Maybe a button in the welcome center "Your opinion is important for use" but not with a autostart after the first boot. Regards, TeaAge ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
2010/9/30 Wolfgang Bornath : > Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway. > 1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth. > 2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any > real information anyway. > 3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user > satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the > forums earlier than by surveys. > > So, at the end of the day, > What do you get by surveys to take away? > More work to implement and to read them, that's all. I mean what wobo has written. Besides, forum posts are more effective way to track users opinions about distro and applications. I always hated this survey thing on Mandriva. Also it feels something like a registration to a propierty application or validate a windows install. Many users in Mandriva Turkiye community asked me if they *must* fill survey and register their e-mails. Most of them were new to GNU Linux. I think we should decide if we will implement a Welcome Center/Kaptan to distro and if it is an informative screen or basic configuration tool or both for newbies. I' m not interested in filling the blanks on a survey. Also a survey would be introduced in main web site. Any interested user should fill it. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 13:56 +0300, Marek Laane a écrit : > I rather think that if at all the survey should be an option not > something > you inevitably get - something for people who feel they are ready to > contribute, give back; otherwise it'd be just a nuisance. Of course. IIRC there was a checkbox "do not answer" on Mandriva survey. I think I remember that fcrozat told me there was a problem on small screen as the checkbox was hidden, but that was clearly a bug. Anyway, I think that without server side interface, this will not work, and before asking who our users are, we need to have softwares and users :) So the first time survey will likely disappear for now ( and maybe forever, depending on the need and suggestions of marketing ). -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
2010/9/30 atilla ontas : > > Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a > company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is > about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies. > > If we' re talking about a Welcome Center, we should decide if it is > only an informative html page or an assistance to configure basic > things or both. Agreed. Surveys are a nuisance anyway. 1. A large part of survey participants do not tell the truth. 2. A large part of users do not participate so you will not get any real information anyway. 3. If something is wrong with the project, the distribution, user satisfaction or whatever you will know it by user postings in the forums earlier than by surveys. So, at the end of the day, What do you get by surveys to take away? More work to implement and to read them, that's all. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
2010/9/30 Michael Scherer > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 13:38 +0300, atilla ontas a écrit : > > 2010/9/30 Robert Xu : > > > On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer wrote: > > > > > >> Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit > : > > >>> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because > if > > >>> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like > go > > >>> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not > invasive > > >>> it will be fine. > > >> > > >> Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable > > >> it. > > > > > > Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should > appear? > > > > > > -- later, Robert Xu > > > > Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a > > company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is > > about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies. > > You do not have to be a company to want to know who use your software. > And I think knowing who use the software can be important in term of > communication. And that's the first step toward listening users. > > Now, a automatic survey as done by mdv may not be the best way for us, > but this should not be ditched based on "we are not a company, we do not > need to know who us the software". > > > I rather think that if at all the survey should be an option not something you inevitably get - something for people who feel they are ready to contribute, give back; otherwise it'd be just a nuisance. Marek Laane > -- > Michael Scherer > > ___ > Mageia-dev mailing list > Mageia-dev@mageia.org > https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev > ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 13:38 +0300, atilla ontas a écrit : > 2010/9/30 Robert Xu : > > On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer wrote: > > > >> Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit : > >>> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if > >>> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go > >>> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive > >>> it will be fine. > >> > >> Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable > >> it. > > > > Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear? > > > > -- later, Robert Xu > > Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a > company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is > about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies. You do not have to be a company to want to know who use your software. And I think knowing who use the software can be important in term of communication. And that's the first step toward listening users. Now, a automatic survey as done by mdv may not be the best way for us, but this should not be ditched based on "we are not a company, we do not need to know who us the software". -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
2010/9/30 Robert Xu : > On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer wrote: > >> Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit : >>> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if >>> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go >>> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive >>> it will be fine. >> >> Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable >> it. > > Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear? > > -- later, Robert Xu Why we' re talking about a survey? Do we need this? We are not a company and think about customer happiness. I thought this thread is about a informational and/or assistance application for newbies. If we' re talking about a Welcome Center, we should decide if it is only an informative html page or an assistance to configure basic things or both. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:23, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit : >> I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if >> you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go >> to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive >> it will be fine. > > Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable > it. Maybe the first time connected to the internet the survey should appear? -- later, Robert Xu ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] What do you think about create a Mageia Welcome Center?
Le mercredi 29 septembre 2010 à 20:53 -0400, Ireneusz Gierlach a écrit : > I just hope there won't be a survey when you first install, because if > you have no internet it doesn't let you do anything. You have to like go > to console and do not cool stuff. I guess as long as it is not invasive > it will be fine. Then we need to fix it so it cope with no internet access, not disable it. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
[Mageia-dev] test
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