Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Le 21/11/2011 01:51, Maarten Vanraes a écrit : in short: let rpmdrake show this short description (which looks more or less like the current name, but clearer) where the current name is now and i'm ok with this proposal. Better formulation: let's use different strings for different purposes, instead of a single generic media 'name' with unclear semantic: - an identifier for computer, without any metacharacter, to be used in command line - a description for humans, to be displayed in GUIs, without any kind of character restriction -- BOFH excuse #368: Failure to adjust for daylight savings time.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Le lundi 21 novembre 2011 09:57:20, Guillaume Rousse a écrit : Le 21/11/2011 01:51, Maarten Vanraes a écrit : in short: let rpmdrake show this short description (which looks more or less like the current name, but clearer) where the current name is now and i'm ok with this proposal. Better formulation: let's use different strings for different purposes, instead of a single generic media 'name' with unclear semantic: - an identifier for computer, without any metacharacter, to be used in command line - a description for humans, to be displayed in GUIs, without any kind of character restriction That's it :) Samuel
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Samuel Verschelde wrote: Le lundi 21 novembre 2011 09:57:20, Guillaume Rousse a écrit : Le 21/11/2011 01:51, Maarten Vanraes a écrit : in short: let rpmdrake show this short description (which looks more or less like the current name, but clearer) where the current name is now and i'm ok with this proposal. Better formulation: let's use different strings for different purposes, instead of a single generic media 'name' with unclear semantic: - an identifier for computer, without any metacharacter, to be used in command line - a description for humans, to be displayed in GUIs, without any kind of character restriction That's it :) Ok, so everybody agree with changing the names with the proposal I made, and adding an optional description line in media.cfg on the mirrors and /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg for each media, to be displayed by rpmdrake in a description column in drakrpm-edit-media near the name ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
2011/11/21 nicolas vigier bo...@mars-attacks.org: Ok, so everybody agree with changing the names with the proposal I made, and adding an optional description line in media.cfg on the mirrors and /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg for each media, to be displayed by rpmdrake in a description column in drakrpm-edit-media near the name ? +1
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Le lundi 21 novembre 2011 à 10:32 +0100, nicolas vigier a écrit : On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Samuel Verschelde wrote: Le lundi 21 novembre 2011 09:57:20, Guillaume Rousse a écrit : Le 21/11/2011 01:51, Maarten Vanraes a écrit : in short: let rpmdrake show this short description (which looks more or less like the current name, but clearer) where the current name is now and i'm ok with this proposal. Better formulation: let's use different strings for different purposes, instead of a single generic media 'name' with unclear semantic: - an identifier for computer, without any metacharacter, to be used in command line - a description for humans, to be displayed in GUIs, without any kind of character restriction That's it :) Ok, so everybody agree with changing the names with the proposal I made, and adding an optional description line in media.cfg on the mirrors and /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg for each media, to be displayed by rpmdrake in a description column in drakrpm-edit-media near the name ? Yeah, let's stop abusing identifier as a user friendly description. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Le lundi 21 novembre 2011 10:32:11, nicolas vigier a écrit : Ok, so everybody agree with changing the names with the proposal I made, and adding an optional description line in media.cfg on the mirrors and /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg for each media, to be displayed by rpmdrake in a description column in drakrpm-edit-media near the name ? Yes.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Luc Menut wrote: Le 20/11/2011 19:43, nicolas vigier a écrit : I suggest we replace them on Cauldron and later versions with names like this : cauldron/x86_64/core/release cauldron/x86_64/debug/core/release cauldron/x86_64/core/updates cauldron/x86_64/debug/core/updates cauldron/x86_64/core/backports cauldron/x86_64/nonfree/release cauldron/i586/core/release cauldron/i586/core/updates ... I assume that they are only templates and not the real unique identifiers. If not, how do you plan to manage multiple servers for a same media? This is the default names that will be used when using urpmi.addmedia --distrib. If the name is already used, urpmi.addmedia currently prepend a number to the name. It is also possible to specify a name when using urpmi.addmedia --distrib. In that case, a string like this is prepended : (nameN) with N a number incremented for each media. Maybe this could be changed to prefix with name- instead.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, nicolas vigier wrote: On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Luc Menut wrote: Le 20/11/2011 19:43, nicolas vigier a écrit : I suggest we replace them on Cauldron and later versions with names like this : cauldron/x86_64/core/release cauldron/x86_64/debug/core/release cauldron/x86_64/core/updates cauldron/x86_64/debug/core/updates cauldron/x86_64/core/backports cauldron/x86_64/nonfree/release cauldron/i586/core/release cauldron/i586/core/updates ... I assume that they are only templates and not the real unique identifiers. If not, how do you plan to manage multiple servers for a same media? This is the default names that will be used when using urpmi.addmedia --distrib. If the name is already used, urpmi.addmedia currently prepend a number to the name. It is also possible to specify a name when using urpmi.addmedia --distrib. In that case, a string like this is prepended : (nameN) with N a number incremented for each media. Maybe this could be changed to prefix with name- instead. s/prepend/append/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Op maandag 21 november 2011 10:32:11 schreef nicolas vigier: [...] Ok, so everybody agree with changing the names with the proposal I made, and adding an optional description line in media.cfg on the mirrors and /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg for each media, to be displayed by rpmdrake in a description column in drakrpm-edit-media near the name ? yes.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
nicolas vigier bo...@mars-attacks.org writes: Ok, so everybody agree with changing the names with the proposal I made, and adding an optional description line in media.cfg on the mirrors and /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg for each media, to be displayed by rpmdrake in a description column in drakrpm-edit-media near the name ? Also, we could probably use tabs to make the default interface for drakrpm-edit-media simpler: - one tab for release + updates media (i.e. the most useful for average users) - one tab for backports media - one tab for testing media - one tab for debug + sources media This would remove a lot of clutter from the current interface -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Olivier Blin a écrit : nicolas vigierbo...@mars-attacks.org writes: Ok, so everybody agree with changing the names with the proposal I made, and adding an optional description line in media.cfg on the mirrors and /etc/urpmi/urpmi.cfg for each media, to be displayed by rpmdrake in a description column in drakrpm-edit-media near the name ? +1 Also, we could probably use tabs to make the default interface for drakrpm-edit-media simpler: - one tab for release + updates media (i.e. the most useful for average users) - one tab for backports media - one tab for testing media - one tab for debug + sources media This would remove a lot of clutter from the current interface Good idea :) A lot better than having to scroll though what seems like 100 lines. -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
On Sunday 20 November 2011 19:43, nicolas vigier wrote: What do you think ? I think it's a good idea. -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Le dimanche 20 novembre 2011 à 19:43 +0100, nicolas vigier a écrit : Hello, The media names on Mageia 1 and Cauldron currently look like this, when added with urpmi.addmedia --distrib : Core Release Core Release Debug Core Updates Core Updates Debug Core Backports Nonfree Release Core 32bit Release Core 32bit Updates ... I suggest we replace them on Cauldron and later versions with names like this : cauldron/x86_64/core/release cauldron/x86_64/debug/core/release cauldron/x86_64/core/updates cauldron/x86_64/debug/core/updates cauldron/x86_64/core/backports cauldron/x86_64/nonfree/release cauldron/i586/core/release cauldron/i586/core/updates ... I think it's better because : - it doesn't have spaces, so doesn't need to be quoted in urpmi command lines - doesn't have capitals, so easier to type right - includes version of Mageia, so you can quickly see which version(s) you're using - match the paths on the mirrors, so I think it's more clear what the media is and easier to remember What do you think ? Look also at this one: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2021 I'am sure we can improve it -- Manuel Hiebel http://netiquette.fr/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Le dimanche 20 novembre 2011 19:43:55, nicolas vigier a écrit : I think it's better because : - it doesn't have spaces, so doesn't need to be quoted in urpmi command lines - doesn't have capitals, so easier to type right Yes, but it looks much less human... at least with underscores it would be readable. In fact, the problem is our GUI : edit-urpm-media should be reworked to have less lines, with several checkboxes to edit medias.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Le dimanche 20 novembre 2011 19:43:55, nicolas vigier a écrit : Hello, The media names on Mageia 1 and Cauldron currently look like this, when added with urpmi.addmedia --distrib : Core Release Core Release Debug Core Updates Core Updates Debug Core Backports Nonfree Release Core 32bit Release Core 32bit Updates ... I suggest we replace them on Cauldron and later versions with names like this : cauldron/x86_64/core/release cauldron/x86_64/debug/core/release cauldron/x86_64/core/updates cauldron/x86_64/debug/core/updates cauldron/x86_64/core/backports cauldron/x86_64/nonfree/release cauldron/i586/core/release cauldron/i586/core/updates ... I think it's better because : - it doesn't have spaces, so doesn't need to be quoted in urpmi command lines - doesn't have capitals, so easier to type right - includes version of Mageia, so you can quickly see which version(s) you're using - match the paths on the mirrors, so I think it's more clear what the media is and easier to remember What do you think ? I'm not sure about it. I see the benefits, but to me there is a major drawback: they are not user-friendly : - current names are readable, new ones aren't, they're just technical - current naming scheme doesn't bother you with arch information, except on 64 bits system and only for 32 bits media - the order of items in current scheme is better : first you see whether it's Core, Nonfree or Tainted, then if it's Release/Updates/Backports/Updates Testing/Backports Testing, and then debug media have some more information. Release and arch are important but many media share the same release and arch on a given system, so the information should be more discreet. This proposal looks good for CLI but not for GUI. I share the objectives, but am not entirely convinced by the current proposal, unless it comes with improvements on the UI side. Some ideas : - change the naming scheme but translate it into human readable names in UI - Implement item 40 for mageia 2 specs : really use media tags in the package managers, CLI and GUI: testing, backport, update, etc. Currently, apart from a hack for media which name contain “backport”, the nature of the media is not used in urpmi and rpmdrake whereas it could be used to improve usability a lot. Instead of talking about core-updates, core-updates_testing, etc., talk about the root media (“core”, “non-free”, “tainted”) and let users choose whether they want to use updates, backports, updates_testing, backports_testing flavors of this root media. I haven't had the time to write a complete spec for that, but if needed I could try to put it higher on my TODO list. Best regards Samuel Verschelde
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Op zondag 20 november 2011 21:18:01 schreef Samuel Verschelde: [...] Some ideas : - change the naming scheme but translate it into human readable names in UI - Implement item 40 for mageia 2 specs : really use media tags in the package managers, CLI and GUI: testing, backport, update, etc. Currently, apart from a hack for media which name contain “backport”, the nature of the media is not used in urpmi and rpmdrake whereas it could be used to improve usability a lot. Instead of talking about core-updates, core-updates_testing, etc., talk about the root media (“core”, “non-free”, “tainted”) and let users choose whether they want to use updates, backports, updates_testing, backports_testing flavors of this root media. I haven't had the time to write a complete spec for that, but if needed I could try to put it higher on my TODO list. Best regards Samuel Verschelde i agree. Also, one problem i see is that naming them like the paths, will give strange errors if you have more than one repos like that. One idea could be: have --*media tags also match the local paths: - cauldron/x86_64/core/release - ... also tab completion doesn't work well with all the spaces, definately not if you want to specify more repos...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, Samuel Verschelde wrote: I'm not sure about it. I see the benefits, but to me there is a major drawback: they are not user-friendly : - current names are readable, new ones aren't, they're just technical Adding capitals and replacing / with spaces does not make the name more user-friendly. If we want to be friendly with users, we should not confuse them by calling the same thing with different names all the time. The naming scheme for medias that is used almost everywhere including on mirrors is i586/core/release, not Core 32bit Release. - current naming scheme doesn't bother you with arch information, except on 64 bits system and only for 32 bits media That's the problem. Sometimes the arch is included, sometimes it is not. And sometimes two names can refer to different things (Core Release is not the same thing on x86_64 and i586 installs), or two different names can refer to the same thing (Core Release on i586 is the same as Core 32bit Release on x86_64 installs). And 32bit is not more user-friendly than i586. Sources is not more user-friendly than SRPMS. We should call the same thing with the same name all the time. - the order of items in current scheme is better : first you see whether it's Core, Nonfree or Tainted, then if it's Release/Updates/Backports/Updates Testing/Backports Testing, and then debug media have some more information. The order of items in current scheme is totally random : Core Release Core 32bit Release Core Release Sources Core Release Debug Sometimes the arch is not included, sometimes the arch is included as 2nd word (32bit), sometimes the arch is the last word (Sources). Debug is last, while on mirrors it is not. If we want to be user-friendly, we should use the same names all the time, so use the same order all the time. Release and arch are important but many media share the same release and arch on a given system, so the information should be more discreet. Release and arch in the name is needed to avoid having different medias with the same name. This proposal looks good for CLI but not for GUI. I share the objectives, but am not entirely convinced by the current proposal, unless it comes with improvements on the UI side. Some ideas : - change the naming scheme but translate it into human readable names in UI I think we should not confuse people by displaying a different name for the same thing. We can add a description text explaining what the media is, but this should not be the name. - Implement item 40 for mageia 2 specs : really use media tags in the package managers, CLI and GUI: testing, backport, update, etc. Currently, apart from a Using media tags does not replace using consistent media names.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Op zondag 20 november 2011 22:36:06 schreef nicolas vigier: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, Samuel Verschelde wrote: I'm not sure about it. I see the benefits, but to me there is a major drawback: they are not user-friendly : - current names are readable, new ones aren't, they're just technical Adding capitals and replacing / with spaces does not make the name more user-friendly. If we want to be friendly with users, we should not confuse them by calling the same thing with different names all the time. The naming scheme for medias that is used almost everywhere including on mirrors is i586/core/release, not Core 32bit Release. - current naming scheme doesn't bother you with arch information, except on 64 bits system and only for 32 bits media That's the problem. Sometimes the arch is included, sometimes it is not. And sometimes two names can refer to different things (Core Release is not the same thing on x86_64 and i586 installs), or two different names can refer to the same thing (Core Release on i586 is the same as Core 32bit Release on x86_64 installs). And 32bit is not more user-friendly than i586. Sources is not more user-friendly than SRPMS. We should call the same thing with the same name all the time. [...] I disagree with you here, I'm all for consistent media names that are easy to complete, but Core Release Source is more userfriendly than SRPMS/core/release . i'm pretty sure my dad would get even more lost than he is right now. imho Cauldron Core Release (source) is more userfriendly than cauldron/SRPM/core/release. at least to people who don't even know what a path is. it's acceptable for me to: - no caps - better ordering - consistent arch adding but using pathnames, albeit the best consistency, is not good. imho we should be able in cli to use a unique identifier, but it doesn't have to be the name as seen. if we can use urpm* commands with the path name as identifier, that's ok for me too.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, Maarten Vanraes wrote: Op zondag 20 november 2011 22:36:06 schreef nicolas vigier: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, Samuel Verschelde wrote: I'm not sure about it. I see the benefits, but to me there is a major drawback: they are not user-friendly : - current names are readable, new ones aren't, they're just technical Adding capitals and replacing / with spaces does not make the name more user-friendly. If we want to be friendly with users, we should not confuse them by calling the same thing with different names all the time. The naming scheme for medias that is used almost everywhere including on mirrors is i586/core/release, not Core 32bit Release. - current naming scheme doesn't bother you with arch information, except on 64 bits system and only for 32 bits media That's the problem. Sometimes the arch is included, sometimes it is not. And sometimes two names can refer to different things (Core Release is not the same thing on x86_64 and i586 installs), or two different names can refer to the same thing (Core Release on i586 is the same as Core 32bit Release on x86_64 installs). And 32bit is not more user-friendly than i586. Sources is not more user-friendly than SRPMS. We should call the same thing with the same name all the time. [...] I disagree with you here, I'm all for consistent media names that are easy to complete, but Core Release Source is more userfriendly than SRPMS/core/release . i'm pretty sure my dad would get even more lost than he is right now. For someone who doesn't know anything about our media policy, both names are equaly meaningless. If we want them to understand something, what is needed is a description text of the medias. imho Cauldron Core Release (source) is more userfriendly than cauldron/SRPM/core/release. at least to people who don't even know what a path is. it's acceptable for me to: - no caps - better ordering - consistent arch adding but using pathnames, albeit the best consistency, is not good. Why ? imho we should be able in cli to use a unique identifier, but it doesn't have to be the name as seen. if we can use urpm* commands with the path name as identifier, that's ok for me too. Having multiple unique identifiers for each media is not what I would call user-friendly. We already have the name as unique identifier, there is no need to add an other one.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Op zondag 20 november 2011 23:48:26 schreef nicolas vigier: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, Maarten Vanraes wrote: [..] I disagree with you here, I'm all for consistent media names that are easy to complete, but Core Release Source is more userfriendly than SRPMS/core/release . i'm pretty sure my dad would get even more lost than he is right now. For someone who doesn't know anything about our media policy, both names are equaly meaningless. If we want them to understand something, what is needed is a description text of the medias. no need to assume judge me, i know pretty well that the name i supplied is not a name we have. imho Cauldron Core Release (source) is more userfriendly than cauldron/SRPM/core/release. at least to people who don't even know what a path is. it's acceptable for me to: - no caps - better ordering - consistent arch adding but using pathnames, albeit the best consistency, is not good. Why ? it's imho and because of the reason and example above. imho we should be able in cli to use a unique identifier, but it doesn't have to be the name as seen. if we can use urpm* commands with the path name as identifier, that's ok for me too. Having multiple unique identifiers for each media is not what I would call user-friendly. We already have the name as unique identifier, there is no need to add an other one. noone said anything about multitple unique identifiers. be that as it may, from a user pov: if we have name + unique_id and GUI shows name, or we have name + description and GUI shows description is more or less the same if 1st name is similar to 2nd description. in short, if rpmdrake shows a short description instead of where name is now and name is mentioned of lesser importance, i'm ok with this. that would indeed make urpmi commands use path and rpmdrake still show (descriptive name/description) if that's what you mean, maybe you should've been more clear on this. then i'm sure even Stormi agrees...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011, Maarten Vanraes wrote: Op zondag 20 november 2011 23:48:26 schreef nicolas vigier: On Sun, 20 Nov 2011, Maarten Vanraes wrote: [..] I disagree with you here, I'm all for consistent media names that are easy to complete, but Core Release Source is more userfriendly than SRPMS/core/release . i'm pretty sure my dad would get even more lost than he is right now. For someone who doesn't know anything about our media policy, both names are equaly meaningless. If we want them to understand something, what is needed is a description text of the medias. no need to assume judge me, i know pretty well that the name i supplied is not a name we have. I'm not judging anyone. Just saying that Core Release Source is as meaningless as SRPMS/core/release for someone who doesn't know media policy. imho Cauldron Core Release (source) is more userfriendly than cauldron/SRPM/core/release. at least to people who don't even know what a path is. it's acceptable for me to: - no caps - better ordering - consistent arch adding but using pathnames, albeit the best consistency, is not good. Why ? it's imho and because of the reason and example above. imho we should be able in cli to use a unique identifier, but it doesn't have to be the name as seen. if we can use urpm* commands with the path name as identifier, that's ok for me too. Having multiple unique identifiers for each media is not what I would call user-friendly. We already have the name as unique identifier, there is no need to add an other one. noone said anything about multitple unique identifiers. be that as it may, from a user pov: if we have name + unique_id and GUI shows name, or we have name + description and GUI shows description is more or less the same if 1st name is similar to 2nd description. in short, if rpmdrake shows a short description instead of where name is now and name is mentioned of lesser importance, i'm ok with this. that would indeed make urpmi commands use path and rpmdrake still show (descriptive name/description) if that's what you mean, maybe you should've been more clear on this. then i'm sure even Stormi agrees... I don't understand what you're talking about ...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Changing default media names
Op maandag 21 november 2011 01:00:35 schreef nicolas vigier: [...] I'm not judging anyone. Just saying that Core Release Source is as meaningless as SRPMS/core/release for someone who doesn't know media policy. oh, sorry, i seem to have misinterpreted it. well, that _is_ true. allthough i would argue that if people know media policy (because they can find that on the wiki), it would be different, _IF_ they are noobish enough not to really understand paths... (difference between acquiring information or acquiring a 'skill') [...] noone said anything about multitple unique identifiers. be that as it may, from a user pov: if we have name + unique_id and GUI shows name, or we have name + description and GUI shows description is more or less the same if 1st name is similar to 2nd description. in short, if rpmdrake shows a short description instead of where name is now and name is mentioned of lesser importance, i'm ok with this. that would indeed make urpmi commands use path and rpmdrake still show (descriptive name/description) if that's what you mean, maybe you should've been more clear on this. then i'm sure even Stormi agrees... I don't understand what you're talking about ... ok, so much for clarity -_-' . in short: let rpmdrake show this short description (which looks more or less like the current name, but clearer) where the current name is now and i'm ok with this proposal.
