[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Barry Warsaw]

I admit I haven’t been following this thread very closely, and don’t intend to 
do so.  (There’s a reason I turned over project management a few years ago :).

Just a couple of points.

> On Sep 15, 2020, at 18:11, Brian Carpenter  wrote:
> 
> When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make mm2 
> python 3 compatible?

I think that will be pretty challenging actually.  At least, it was when I did 
it years ago.  And unless you’re *really* careful to avoid the temptation to 
“fix" things along the way, you’ll probably end up with something not too far 
away from Mailman 3. ;)   But hey, it’ll definitely be fun.

The only other point to make is to remember that Mailman is “GNU Mailman”.  2 
or 3, it’s still a GNU project, which means more than just being covered under 
some flavor of the GPL.  Just saying that if responsibility for MM2 is 
transferred, you’ll need to coordinate with the GNU project.

Cheers, and good luck!
-Barry




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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 21:11 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> On 9/15/20 8:18 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
> > are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
> > all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
> > on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
> > testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
> > the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.
> 
> When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make 
> mm2 python 3 compatible?

yes.

> 
> So this labor you and your group are looking to do for MM2, how is this 
> not going to take more time then just migrating to MM3? One of your 
> criticism is that MM3 is complex and it is difficult to install. How is 
> all of this effort you are making staying with a version of Mailman that 
> has been updated (MM2 to MM3), and uses an interface that is over 15 
> years old productive? 

How old is the technology and tools used to steer the vehicle you drive,
or the mechanics behind the blades that wipe the windshield?

> I don't see this path you are trying to take as 
> one that is less complex and difficult than just moving to a MM3 
> environment. 

Fair point.

> At this point, those who use MM2 via cPanel will most 
> likely not benefit from your efforts. Especially if you port MM2 to 
> python 3 (this is an assumption I am making). I don't think cPanel will 
> touch such a version at all.

I'm no fan of cpanel as I have stated many times before. This isn't for
them.

> By the way, with all the problems I have seen with some folks having a 
> difficult time with installing MM2 on this list, I think the arguments 
> that MM3 is too difficult to install (it's not) 

says the guy who paid someone to re-craft 2/3rds of it. O_o   :)


> weakens considerably. I 
> still think non-cPanel MM2 users' time is better spent learning to 
> install MM3 and using it. Or better yet use a Mailman 3 host provider 
> such as myself to make their lives considerably easier.
> 

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/15/20 8:18 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.


When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make 
mm2 python 3 compatible?


So this labor you and your group are looking to do for MM2, how is this 
not going to take more time then just migrating to MM3? One of your 
criticism is that MM3 is complex and it is difficult to install. How is 
all of this effort you are making staying with a version of Mailman that 
has been updated (MM2 to MM3), and uses an interface that is over 15 
years old productive? I don't see this path you are trying to take as 
one that is less complex and difficult than just moving to a MM3 
environment. At this point, those who use MM2 via cPanel will most 
likely not benefit from your efforts. Especially if you port MM2 to 
python 3 (this is an assumption I am making). I don't think cPanel will 
touch such a version at all.


By the way, with all the problems I have seen with some folks having a 
difficult time with installing MM2 on this list, I think the arguments 
that MM3 is too difficult to install (it's not) weakens considerably. I 
still think non-cPanel MM2 users' time is better spent learning to 
install MM3 and using it. Or better yet use a Mailman 3 host provider 
such as myself to make their lives considerably easier.


--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 16:51 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/15/20 12:41 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
> > all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
> > support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad. 
> 
> I told you to make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org. I suggested
> what I thought it should include. I don't think I said it had to include
> all that. See my follow=up at
> ;.
> 

Thank you Mark.  I did read your followup when you posted a few days
back, I've read and followed every email in this thread.

A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.

-Jim P.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Mark Sapiro]

On 9/15/20 8:59 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I went to the last link at the bottom of this list's posts and clicked
> on the (first) item with the same Subject as this email.  I paged down
> into that long page to find the single post that I wanted to link to.
> After a while I gave up trying to find it because I was distracted by
> all the out-of-order posts that were displayed there.  Go try it
> yourself, look at how the past post of "I'm done Jim" is listed right
> after your most recent post today.  I get that HK is different than
> Pipermail, but there's something stylish and simplistic about Pipermail
> that make it easy to use.


I admit, it isn't easy to find a single post on a page containing over
80 posts, but you might find it easier to "Search this list" for
"mailman v2.x" and "sort by latest first, or use your browser's find in
page function.

It doesn't seem that difficult for me if I know what I'm looking for.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Mark Sapiro]

On 9/15/20 12:41 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
> all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
> support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad. 


I told you to make a proposal to mailman-ca...@python.org. I suggested
what I thought it should include. I don't think I said it had to include
all that. See my follow=up at
.


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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Mark Sapiro]

On 9/15/20 12:28 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> On 9/15/2020 3:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> If you are in the directory that you unpacked the Mailman 2.1.34 tarball
>> into, do
>>
>> patch -p1 < /path/to/mailman-FHS.patch
>>
>>
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I guess there is still something wrong:
> 
> # patch -p1 <../mailman-FHS.patch
> patching file bin/check_perms
> Hunk #1 succeeded at 183 with fuzz 1 (offset 19 lines).
> patching file configure.in
> Hunk #1 succeeded at 321 (offset 141 lines).
> Hunk #2 succeeded at 348 with fuzz 2 (offset 141 lines).
> Hunk #3 succeeded at 821 (offset 147 lines).
> patching file Mailman/Defaults.py.in
> Hunk #1 succeeded at 1751 (offset 553 lines).
> Hunk #2 succeeded at 1766 (offset 553 lines).
> Hunk #3 succeeded at 1780 (offset 553 lines).
> patching file Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py
> Hunk #1 FAILED at 32.
> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py.rej
> patching file Makefile.in
> patching file misc/mailman.in
> Hunk #1 FAILED at 24.
> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file misc/mailman.in.rej
> patching file misc/Makefile.in
> Hunk #1 succeeded at 27 (offset 1 line).
> Hunk #2 succeeded at 94 with fuzz 1 (offset 4 lines).


These warnings/errors are all because that patch is against the 2.1.5
base and you're patching 2.1.34.

The succeeded at (offset) and succeeded at with fuzz messages are
warnings. They will have created '.orig' files, but the patches were
applied and should be OK.

The FAILED patches will have to be applied manually.


> # cat Postfix.py.rej
> --- Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py    2003-03-31 16:49:43.0 -0500
> +++ Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py    2004-10-08 16:02:20.0 -0400
> @@ -32,8 +32,8 @@
>  from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog
>  
>  LOCKFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.LOCK_DIR, 'creator')
> -ALIASFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.DATA_DIR, 'aliases')
> -VIRTFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.DATA_DIR, 'virtual-mailman')
> +ALIASFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.CONFIG_DIR, 'aliases')
> +VIRTFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.CONFIG_DIR, 'virtual-mailman')
>  
>  try:
>  True, False

E.g., for this one, just find the

ALIASFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.DATA_DIR, 'aliases')
VIRTFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.DATA_DIR, 'virtual-mailman')

lines in Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py  and change them to

ALIASFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.CONFIG_DIR, 'aliases')
VIRTFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.CONFIG_DIR, 'virtual-mailman')


The other failure is the patch to misc/mailman.in. The rejected patch is

--- mailman-2.1.5.orig/misc/mailman.in  2003-09-25 18:13:26.0 -0400
+++ mailman-2.1.5.FHS/misc/mailman.in   2004-10-06 16:15:28.0 -0400
@@ -24,13 +24,13 @@
 # On Debian, type "update-rc.d mailman defaults"
 # On RedHat, and derivatives, install with "chkconfig --add mailman"
 #
-# chkconfig: 2345 98 12
+# chkconfig: - 98 12
 # description: Mailman is the GNU Mailing List Manager, a program that \
 #  manages electronic mail discussion groups.  For more \
 #  on GNU Mailman see http://www.list.org
 # processname: mailmanctl
 # config: @prefix@/Mailman/mm_cfg.py
-# pidfile: @prefix@/data/master-qrunner.pid
+# pidfile: @PID_DIR@/master-qrunner.pid

 PYTHON=@PYTHON@
 MAILMANHOME=@prefix@

It fails because

# pidfile: @prefix@/data/master-qrunner.pid

is

# pidfile: @VAR_PREFIX@/data/master-qrunner.pid

in 2.1.34. Again, just make the changes manually, but in this case,
misc/mailman.in is just a template for building misc/mailman which in
turn is a sample init.d script for starting Mailman and is probably
already installed from your 2.1.15 installation.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/15/20 4:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
If only this were a meeting conducted under Robert's Rules, the Chair 
would have invoked cloture, or at least referred this issue back to 
committee.  All interested parties have made their arguments, 
positions have hardened, and debate has become unrevealing.


Insofar as anything ever dies on the Internet, this abused equine is 
pinin' for the grassy fjords.


Please, can we convert this into a three-way private conversation, and 
consign this nearly ninety-entry email thread to history?  My screen 
isn't wide enough to handle the indentation required. 


Please don't make this private. Chip doesn't have to read it. That is 
why email programs contain a delete button.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Chip Davis]

If only this were a meeting conducted under Robert's Rules, the Chair 
would have invoked cloture, or at least referred this issue back to 
committee.  All interested parties have made their arguments, 
positions have hardened, and debate has become unrevealing.


Insofar as anything ever dies on the Internet, this abused equine is 
pinin' for the grassy fjords.


Please, can we convert this into a three-way private conversation, and 
consign this nearly ninety-entry email thread to history?  My screen 
isn't wide enough to handle the indentation required.


-Chip-

On 9/15/2020 3:41 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

On Wed, 2020-09-16 at 03:51 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

  > I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
  > any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
  > umbrella.

Digging??  Wake up, Jim!  It's *official policy* that Mailman 2 will
not receive new features under the Mailman umbrella.  It has been so
for *years*.  And the reasons have been the same for just as long:
It's because we don't want to support them.  Mark and I have both been
quite clear about that.

If you will support Mailman 2 going forward as we (ie, mostly Mark)
have supported it to date, that would be fine.  But you've explicitly
denied that you want to do that work.  You don't think it's necessary.
We think it addresses the needs of the users who need us most, so
we'll keep doing it our way, ie, we will support no new features.

Wait, so you do want to continue to support mm2 users, but you don't
want to support them in any fashion if someone else other than you and
Mark manages just the new features? (BTW, NEWS lists New Features were
added as recently as 2020-April) Do you feel that you would be obligated
to support something that was added to mm2 that you didn't feel should
be added or that you couldn't provide support for?  Is that what this is
all about?



  > Obstruction much?

There you go with the abuse again.  But I'll answer you politely.

Mailman is free software.  There's no "obstruction" at all, it's
almost impossible to obstruct you -- you have the code, it's easy to
find well-known places to host your releases and issue tracker, and
we're not going to stop you from announcing them here or on the wiki.
You don't need anything else.

You demand a bunch of perks: use of the Mailman brand, commit rights
in the official Mailman 2 repository, manager access to the tracker (I
assume), a seat in the cabal, etc.

I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad.


You also apparently think you have
the right to tell Mark and me which releases we should support.

No I don't, and I don't know why you can't differentiate between Mailman
and yourself.  Mailman should, and can, support multiple versions.  You
and Mark should feel free to contribute wherever you feel comfortable;
but I draw the line at you saying mm2 should die because you don't want
to support it under the parameters and guidelines designed and
established by yourself (and Mark).  I think the genuine problem here is
that it's a 2 man show when it should be a much larger body.

Now, no one should be shielded from criticism when they attempt to
abandon an installed base of users.  Remember, we are at this juncture
today because several people spoke up, over the past year, about all the
repeated "Final Release" warnings. It took at least 2 days of back-n-
forth emails just to get someone to say publicly that mm2 security
issues would indeed still be addressed going forward (why was it so
difficult to come to that reasoning?).   Also, don't forget that this
time last Summer there were some discussions on this list about how mm2
would be eol on 1/1/2020 because that was the Python team's v2 eol.


My question is: what do our users get in return?  If they wanted "bright!
new! shiny!", they'd migrate to Mailman 3.  I don't see much in the
plus column.  On the minus side, Mark and I will spend time supporting
your new features, time we can't spend on "classic" Mailman 2 issues,
Python 2 EOL issues, or on Mailman 3 development, which is what the
project is committed to, as Mark and I are.

I don't see that as a good deal for Mark and me, or for the great
majority of Mailman 2 users.

Why just you and Mark?  What about any of the other many people who
contribute and help in various ways?

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Wed, 2020-09-16 at 03:51 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
>  > any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
>  > umbrella.
> 
> Digging??  Wake up, Jim!  It's *official policy* that Mailman 2 will
> not receive new features under the Mailman umbrella.  It has been so
> for *years*.  And the reasons have been the same for just as long:
> It's because we don't want to support them.  Mark and I have both been
> quite clear about that.
> 
> If you will support Mailman 2 going forward as we (ie, mostly Mark)
> have supported it to date, that would be fine.  But you've explicitly
> denied that you want to do that work.  You don't think it's necessary.
> We think it addresses the needs of the users who need us most, so
> we'll keep doing it our way, ie, we will support no new features.

Wait, so you do want to continue to support mm2 users, but you don't
want to support them in any fashion if someone else other than you and
Mark manages just the new features? (BTW, NEWS lists New Features were
added as recently as 2020-April) Do you feel that you would be obligated
to support something that was added to mm2 that you didn't feel should
be added or that you couldn't provide support for?  Is that what this is
all about?  


>  > Obstruction much?
> 
> There you go with the abuse again.  But I'll answer you politely.
> 
> Mailman is free software.  There's no "obstruction" at all, it's
> almost impossible to obstruct you -- you have the code, it's easy to
> find well-known places to host your releases and issue tracker, and
> we're not going to stop you from announcing them here or on the wiki.
> You don't need anything else.
> 
> You demand a bunch of perks: use of the Mailman brand, commit rights
> in the official Mailman 2 repository, manager access to the tracker (I
> assume), a seat in the cabal, etc.  

I demanded nothing. I was told by Mark that I would need to apply for
all those perks (sans the Cabal seat) when all I offered to do was
support/test/debug/evaluate/approve new features in launchpad. 

> You also apparently think you have
> the right to tell Mark and me which releases we should support.

No I don't, and I don't know why you can't differentiate between Mailman
and yourself.  Mailman should, and can, support multiple versions.  You
and Mark should feel free to contribute wherever you feel comfortable;
but I draw the line at you saying mm2 should die because you don't want
to support it under the parameters and guidelines designed and
established by yourself (and Mark).  I think the genuine problem here is
that it's a 2 man show when it should be a much larger body.

Now, no one should be shielded from criticism when they attempt to
abandon an installed base of users.  Remember, we are at this juncture
today because several people spoke up, over the past year, about all the
repeated "Final Release" warnings. It took at least 2 days of back-n-
forth emails just to get someone to say publicly that mm2 security
issues would indeed still be addressed going forward (why was it so
difficult to come to that reasoning?).   Also, don't forget that this
time last Summer there were some discussions on this list about how mm2
would be eol on 1/1/2020 because that was the Python team's v2 eol. 

> My question is: what do our users get in return?  If they wanted "bright! 
> new! shiny!", they'd migrate to Mailman 3.  I don't see much in the
> plus column.  On the minus side, Mark and I will spend time supporting
> your new features, time we can't spend on "classic" Mailman 2 issues,
> Python 2 EOL issues, or on Mailman 3 development, which is what the
> project is committed to, as Mark and I are.
> 
> I don't see that as a good deal for Mark and me, or for the great
> majority of Mailman 2 users.

Why just you and Mark?  What about any of the other many people who
contribute and help in various ways? 

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Dennis Putnam]

On 9/15/2020 3:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> If you are in the directory that you unpacked the Mailman 2.1.34 tarball
> into, do
>
> patch -p1 < /path/to/mailman-FHS.patch
>
>
Hi Mark,

I guess there is still something wrong:

# patch -p1 <../mailman-FHS.patch
patching file bin/check_perms
Hunk #1 succeeded at 183 with fuzz 1 (offset 19 lines).
patching file configure.in
Hunk #1 succeeded at 321 (offset 141 lines).
Hunk #2 succeeded at 348 with fuzz 2 (offset 141 lines).
Hunk #3 succeeded at 821 (offset 147 lines).
patching file Mailman/Defaults.py.in
Hunk #1 succeeded at 1751 (offset 553 lines).
Hunk #2 succeeded at 1766 (offset 553 lines).
Hunk #3 succeeded at 1780 (offset 553 lines).
patching file Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py
Hunk #1 FAILED at 32.
1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py.rej
patching file Makefile.in
patching file misc/mailman.in
Hunk #1 FAILED at 24.
1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file misc/mailman.in.rej
patching file misc/Makefile.in
Hunk #1 succeeded at 27 (offset 1 line).
Hunk #2 succeeded at 94 with fuzz 1 (offset 4 lines).

# cat Postfix.py.rej
--- Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py    2003-03-31 16:49:43.0 -0500
+++ Mailman/MTA/Postfix.py    2004-10-08 16:02:20.0 -0400
@@ -32,8 +32,8 @@
 from Mailman.Logging.Syslog import syslog
 
 LOCKFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.LOCK_DIR, 'creator')
-ALIASFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.DATA_DIR, 'aliases')
-VIRTFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.DATA_DIR, 'virtual-mailman')
+ALIASFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.CONFIG_DIR, 'aliases')
+VIRTFILE = os.path.join(mm_cfg.CONFIG_DIR, 'virtual-mailman')
 
 try:
 True, False





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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Dmitri Maziuk]

On 9/15/2020 2:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 9/15/20 10:44 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:



I guess I don't know how to use patch. Better documentation would be
helpful.


man patch?



In all fairness, as I recall "-p" isn't explained all that well.

The diff file has paths to file(s) to patch, something like
--- foo/bar/baz.py.orig
+++ foo/bar/baz.py

and you (and the diff) need to be in foo's parent directory when you run 
patch. If you're in "bar" you'll get that error and you'll need to tell 
it to strip "foo" -- or however many levels of subdirs -- from the paths.


Dima
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Mark Sapiro]

On 9/15/20 10:44 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:

> 
> I guess I don't know how to use patch. Better documentation would be
> helpful.


man patch?


> # patch --verbose -i ../mailman-FHS.patch
> 
> Hmm...  Looks like a unified diff to me...
> can't find file to patch at input line 5
> Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option?
> The text leading up to this was:
> --
> |Only in mailman-2.1.5.FHS: autom4te.cache
> |diff -r -u mailman-2.1.5.orig/bin/check_perms
> mailman-2.1.5.FHS/bin/check_perms
> |--- mailman-2.1.5.orig/bin/check_perms    2003-03-31 15:07:55.0
> -0500
> |+++ mailman-2.1.5.FHS/bin/check_perms    2004-10-08 16:05:09.0
> -0400
> --
> File to patch:
> 
> Before I screw it up, is it wanting to patch the file listed in the diff
> command (i.e. check_perms)? I also assume I need to use -u.


If you are in the directory that you unpacked the Mailman 2.1.34 tarball
into, do

patch -p1 < /path/to/mailman-FHS.patch

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

 > I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
 > any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
 > umbrella.

Digging??  Wake up, Jim!  It's *official policy* that Mailman 2 will
not receive new features under the Mailman umbrella.  It has been so
for *years*.  And the reasons have been the same for just as long:
It's because we don't want to support them.  Mark and I have both been
quite clear about that.

If you will support Mailman 2 going forward as we (ie, mostly Mark)
have supported it to date, that would be fine.  But you've explicitly
denied that you want to do that work.  You don't think it's necessary.
We think it addresses the needs of the users who need us most, so
we'll keep doing it our way, ie, we will support no new features.

 > Obstruction much?

There you go with the abuse again.  But I'll answer you politely.

Mailman is free software.  There's no "obstruction" at all, it's
almost impossible to obstruct you -- you have the code, it's easy to
find well-known places to host your releases and issue tracker, and
we're not going to stop you from announcing them here or on the wiki.
You don't need anything else.

You demand a bunch of perks: use of the Mailman brand, commit rights
in the official Mailman 2 repository, manager access to the tracker (I
assume), a seat in the cabal, etc.  You also apparently think you have
the right to tell Mark and me which releases we should support.  My
question is: what do our users get in return?  If they wanted "bright! 
new! shiny!", they'd migrate to Mailman 3.  I don't see much in the
plus column.  On the minus side, Mark and I will spend time supporting
your new features, time we can't spend on "classic" Mailman 2 issues,
Python 2 EOL issues, or on Mailman 3 development, which is what the
project is committed to, as Mark and I are.

I don't see that as a good deal for Mark and me, or for the great
majority of Mailman 2 users.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Dennis Putnam]

On 9/15/2020 1:13 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/15/20 9:02 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Thanks again. I thought if I was already at 2.1.15 the patch was not
>> necessary. However, reading the article it is not clear to me when/where
>> to run that patch. Does it get run after the install or before running
>> ./config?
>
> It needs to be applied before running configure as it patches configure.
>
>
Hi Mark,

I guess I don't know how to use patch. Better documentation would be
helpful.

# patch --verbose -i ../mailman-FHS.patch

Hmm...  Looks like a unified diff to me...
can't find file to patch at input line 5
Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option?
The text leading up to this was:
--
|Only in mailman-2.1.5.FHS: autom4te.cache
|diff -r -u mailman-2.1.5.orig/bin/check_perms
mailman-2.1.5.FHS/bin/check_perms
|--- mailman-2.1.5.orig/bin/check_perms    2003-03-31 15:07:55.0
-0500
|+++ mailman-2.1.5.FHS/bin/check_perms    2004-10-08 16:05:09.0
-0400
--
File to patch:

Before I screw it up, is it wanting to patch the file listed in the diff
command (i.e. check_perms)? I also assume I need to use -u.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Mark Sapiro]

On 9/15/20 9:02 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> 
> Thanks again. I thought if I was already at 2.1.15 the patch was not
> necessary. However, reading the article it is not clear to me when/where
> to run that patch. Does it get run after the install or before running
> ./config?


It needs to be applied before running configure as it patches configure.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/15/20 11:59 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

Ok, that makes sense. I wonder if we can get him to license/allow a copy
for use by Python.org.


Only if they agree to use it on a server on my network with no root 
access allowed. Since Affinity and Empathy are not python apps, I doubt 
they would ever agree to that, especially since Postorius and HK are 
developed with python, howbeit Django projects.




I went to the last link at the bottom of this list's posts and clicked
on the (first) item with the same Subject as this email.  I paged down
into that long page to find the single post that I wanted to link to.
After a while I gave up trying to find it because I was distracted by
all the out-of-order posts that were displayed there.  Go try it
yourself, look at how the past post of "I'm done Jim" is listed right
after your most recent post today.  I get that HK is different than
Pipermail, but there's something stylish and simplistic about Pipermail
that make it easy to use.


I am not sure if Empathy would be any better but feel free to try:

https://harmonylists.io/empathy/list/affinity-beta.harmonylists.io

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Dennis Putnam]

On 9/15/2020 10:26 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/15/20 6:56 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply. Your article is not much help as I am already at
>> 2.1.15 so the paths are already correct. I turned off SELinux to see if
>> that helps but there is another issue after the reboot. I'll let you
>> know when I get the machine back online. That may fix the permission
>> problem but probably not the missing site list.
>
> The point is that without applying the patch attached to the post linked
> from the article, running configure and make install as you did will not
> install things according to the RHEL FHS layout.
>
> At a minimum, you need to configure with the options
> `--prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman`, but
> there are other things changed in configure itself by the patch to get
> things installed in the proper places.
>
>
Hi Mark,

Thanks again. I thought if I was already at 2.1.15 the patch was not
necessary. However, reading the article it is not clear to me when/where
to run that patch. Does it get run after the install or before running
./config?



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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 08:45 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/15/20 4:40 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > I'd use the new MM3 archive of this list to link to your posts, but
> > interacting with it is an abysmal time waste.  At a minimum someone
> > should put Brian's HK replacement on python.org?
> 
> Brian's Affinity and Empathy are his proprietary work and he has valid
> reasons for not licensing their use by others.

Ok, that makes sense. I wonder if we can get him to license/allow a copy
for use by Python.org.

> Would you care to elaborate on why you think interacting with HK is "an
> abysmal time waste"?

I went to the last link at the bottom of this list's posts and clicked
on the (first) item with the same Subject as this email.  I paged down
into that long page to find the single post that I wanted to link to.
After a while I gave up trying to find it because I was distracted by
all the out-of-order posts that were displayed there.  Go try it
yourself, look at how the past post of "I'm done Jim" is listed right
after your most recent post today.  I get that HK is different than
Pipermail, but there's something stylish and simplistic about Pipermail
that make it easy to use.

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Mark Sapiro]

On 9/15/20 4:40 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I'd use the new MM3 archive of this list to link to your posts, but
> interacting with it is an abysmal time waste.  At a minimum someone
> should put Brian's HK replacement on python.org?


Brian's Affinity and Empathy are his proprietary work and he has valid
reasons for not licensing their use by others.

Would you care to elaborate on why you think interacting with HK is "an
abysmal time waste"?

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Mark Sapiro]

On 9/15/20 6:56 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply. Your article is not much help as I am already at
> 2.1.15 so the paths are already correct. I turned off SELinux to see if
> that helps but there is another issue after the reboot. I'll let you
> know when I get the machine back online. That may fix the permission
> problem but probably not the missing site list.


The point is that without applying the patch attached to the post linked
from the article, running configure and make install as you did will not
install things according to the RHEL FHS layout.

At a minimum, you need to configure with the options
`--prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman`, but
there are other things changed in configure itself by the patch to get
things installed in the proper places.


-- 
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Manual Update on Centos 7 (RH)

[Dennis Putnam]

On 9/14/2020 9:11 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 9/14/20 9:59 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> On 8/29/2020 2:11 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>>> Since Centos 7 is way behind on mailman rpm (2.1.15 is the only
>>> available rpm) and mailman is currently at 2.1.34 I need to do a manual
>>> update. While I know how to install software, I am concerned that just
>>> doing a manual install from the tarball will mess up current settings,
>>> lists and members. Does anyone have experience doing this that can
>>> advise about pitfalls or has a cookbook document to do a safe update? TIA.
>>>
>> After additional attempts and some research I am stuck upgrading mailman
>> 2.1.5 to 2.1.34 and get the same results I had reported here earlier. I
>> followed these instructions:
>>
>> https://wiki.list.org/DOC/How%20do%20I%20upgrade%20a%20Debian/Ubuntu%20Mailman%20package%20from%20source.
>
> This FAQ (note period is part of URL) is not relevant.
>
> The relevant FAQ is https://wiki.list.org/x/8486953> which references
> the post at
> 
> (also now at
> 
> which contains a patch which enables Mailman to install in the
> RHEL/Centos way.
>
> (more below)
>
>> And made, what I thought were, the appropriate changes to the configure
>> parameters:
>>
>> ./configure --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --with-username=mailman
>> --with-groupname=mailman --with-cgi-gid=apache --with-mail-gid=mailman
>>
>> If anyone sees anything wrong please point it out. Anyway, after doing
>> the make and install, I start mailman and get this status:
>>
>> ● mailman.service - GNU Mailing List Manager
>>    Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/mailman.service; disabled;
>> vendor preset: disabled)
>>    Active: failed (Result: exit-code) since Mon 2020-09-14 10:31:12 MDT;
>> 20min ago
>>   Process: 20030 ExecStart=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s start
>> (code=exited, status=1/FAILURE)
>>   Process: 20028 ExecStartPre=/bin/chmod 660 /var/log/mailman/error
>> (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
>>   Process: 20024 ExecStartPre=/bin/chown mailman:mailman
>> /var/log/mailman/error (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
>>   Process: 20021 ExecStartPre=/bin/touch /var/log/mailman/error
>> (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
>>   Process: 20018 ExecStartPre=/usr/bin/install -m644 -o root -g root
>> /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in /etc/cron.d/mailman (code=exited,
>> status=0/SUCCESS)
>>   Process: 20014 ExecStartPre=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailman-update-cfg
>> (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
>>
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[20030]: File
>> "/usr/lib64/python2.7/codecs.py", line 881, in open
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[20030]: file =
>> __builtin__.open(filename, mode, buffering)
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[20030]: IOError: [Errno 13]
>> Permission denied: '/usr/lib/mailman/logs/error'
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[20030]: Original log message:
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[20030]: [Errno 13]
>> Permission denied: '/usr/lib/mailman/logs/error'
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net mailmanctl[20030]: Sep 14 10:31:12 2020
>> (20030) Site list is missing: mailman
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: mailman.service: control
>> process exited, code=exited status=1
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: Failed to start GNU Mailing
>> List Manager.
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: Unit mailman.service
>> entered failed state.
>> Sep 14 10:31:12 harmonia.csd.net systemd[1]: mailman.service failed.
>>
>> I don't understand the permissions denied error.
>
> I suspect this is a SELinux issue. That's what the RHEL FHS patch is
> for. Is SELinux enabled? If yoiu disable it does Mailman start?
>
>
>
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply. Your article is not much help as I am already at
2.1.15 so the paths are already correct. I turned off SELinux to see if
that helps but there is another issue after the reboot. I'll let you
know when I get the machine back online. That may fix the permission
problem but probably not the missing site list.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2020-09-15 at 16:10 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > See Stephens previous comments about how there was no way he could
>  > or would work with anyone working on mm2 because it was against his
>  > objectives,
> 
> Correction: I will not work with someone who repeatedly misrepresents my
> positions in the way that the quoted passage does.


Fine. I'll leave it up to the reader to bisect what you and I have both
said on the issue, including your other comments today about how you (a
member of the Mailman Cabal) will only support Mark's Mailman releases.

I personally think that you, Stephen, are digging high and low to find
any reason for Mailman2 to not continue forward under the Mailman
umbrella.  Obstruction much?

I'd use the new MM3 archive of this list to link to your posts, but
interacting with it is an abysmal time waste.  At a minimum someone
should put Brian's HK replacement on python.org?

-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

 > See Stephens previous comments about how there was no way he could
 > or would work with anyone working on mm2 because it was against his
 > objectives,

Correction: I will not work with someone who repeatedly misrepresents my
positions in the way that the quoted passage does.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users writes:

 > As long as cPanel bundles MM2, I need from time to time some
 > support from the real experts. And even if MM2 would not be
 > improved at all in the future, I hope that this list will stay
 > alive.

The existence of this list, and of support for Mark's releases of
Mailman 2, is not in question (subject to health of experienced
developers and users).  As long as I'm alive and well and people are
posting to this list, I will be supporting Mark's releases (even if
they're a decade old).  To the extent that people aren't posting,
there's no burden, the list will remain.

As proof of credibility, I offer the fact that during Mark's recent
vacation, I requested, received, and used moderation privilege on this
list.  And of course you know Mark.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Steven Jones writes:

 > I dont know what planet this user lives on,

Please, don't.  This conversation is painful enough on all sides.

 > > Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple:
 > >   1.  MM2 must continue to work,
 > >   2.  support must continue to be provided."

Read literally, he said "these are *my* requirements".  That's a
perfectly fair statement!  He didn't claim there was an obligation on
the Mailman developers, nor did he say what he would do if Mark and I
decided to completely abandon MM2 support -- but I doubt it involves
putting prices on our heads. :-)

Sure, you could take it as a statement of obligation, and indeed it
often is.  I prefer to hear it as a forecast of a cry of pain, and to
do what I can (within the effort that I have committed) to deal with
it in that spirit.
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