Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
JC == JC Dill Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane? Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:45:44 -0800 JC When we first asked Gmane to not gateway this list, one of the JC issues was that while our own archives munge the email address JC of list posters, the Gmane feed didn't do any munging. Did you consider selecting the option to have Gmane do address obfuscation? I suppose that would require someone at Gmane to intervene if your list had been subscribed by a third party. JC Taken together (gatewaying the list without permission, and JC exposing the email addresses to spammers) we were not very JC happy with Gmane's actions. The without permission bit is I think a bit misplaced. Any subscriber can do what they will with list mail they receive. They can (and do in other venues) put list mail to public and private archives, send it to other lists, and expose it to search engines anywhere. In fact Gmane removes lists when there objections. I don't know what more it is reasonable to expect from Gmane. From what has been said it seems that Lars agreed to remove the lists but later it appeared either the removal was not done or that the lists had been subscribed again. Whatever the case it seems that Lars acknowledged, in http://article.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/9291, that something had apparently gone wrong a long, long time ago. If Gmane was such a menace to the lists why was it a long, long time before the issue was brought to Lars attention again? jam pgp5JHErRXs6g.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
sjt == Stephen J Turnbull Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane? Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:56:46 +0900 jam == John A Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: sjt I missed at least one of your posts, receiving Brad's reply sjt to it almost 24 hours in advance of your post. Even today sjt this is common for netnews. Sorry, Gmane is not netnews. Gmane is not Usenet. The Mailman-* lists were removed from Gmane at least two days before I sent anything (recently) to this list. By what mechanism do you suppose Gmane could have caused mail to be delayed or received out of order after the list was removed? JFTR after the first two mails I sent this list Wednesday, To: mailman-users@python.org References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:24:33 -0500 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: John Swartzentruber [EMAIL PROTECTED], mailman-users@python.org References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:46:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Knowles's message of Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:21:08 +0100) Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] did not appear on the list for some time, I poked around saved monthly reminders and realized that I was subscribed to this list with an address at which I currently receive mail but at which I have not sent mail for some time. I changed my subscription on the list web interface and eventually received the mail confirmation request and did the confirmation on the web interface. Using my newly subscribed sending address I resent the first mail indicated above which carried the following pertinent header fields to the list. Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from bag.python.org (bag [127.0.0.1]) by bag.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893591E400A for mailman-users@python.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:51:15 +0100 (CET) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:51:11 -0500 Resent-Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: John A. Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailman-users@python.org References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:24:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Swartzentruber's message of Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:41:02 -0500) Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not wishing to annoy Brad Knowles or John Swartzentruber with additional copies of my second mail to the list I made a new mail (new Message-ID (and new PGP signature)) with a single Header-Recipient and the same Header-Date and the same content as the mail I had sent about five hours and 10 minutes earlier. Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from bag.python.org (bag [127.0.0.1]) by bag.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7171E4024 for mailman-users@python.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:56:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from athene.jamux.com (athene.jamux.com [65.222.215.34]) by bag.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP for mailman-users@python.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:56:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by athene.jamux.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027472F445 for mailman-users@python.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:56:36 -0500 (EST) From: John A. Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailman-users@python.org In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Knowles's message of Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:21:08 +0100) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:46:23 -0500 References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The above are I believe the most pertinent header fields but I expect that any subscriber to this list can see the full header if they wish. I expect also that anybody who cares to look will see that Brad's response to my Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (not a response to my [EMAIL PROTECTED]) was received by bag.python.org at Feb 2006 18:58:30 +0100 (CET) which, by my calculation is about two minutes shy of being five hours ahead of when my Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED] was received. Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from bag.python.org (bag [127.0.0.1]) by bag.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D4C1E4007 for mailman-users@python.org; Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:58:30 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:57:24 +0100 To: John A. Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
Brad == Brad Knowles Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane? Thu, 16 Feb 2006 04:27:41 +0100 Brad At 10:06 PM -0500 2006-02-15, John A. Martin wrote: Absent a searchable archive, would you like to give a pointer for someone that does not read every article every day in every group to which he is subscribed? Brad We've had an official searchable archive for many Brad years. It is one of the many things that is discussed in Brad the Mailman FAQ Wizard. Looking in what might be viewed as the canonical place I saw: ,[ Header of list mail ] List-Archive: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users ` You would have one look at a FAQ Wizard after seeing the specific unqualified assertion above? Last time I looked, the Mailman FAQs 1.11 and 1.18 recommend Gmane along with Mail-archive while 1.11 notes that the latter runs Google ads. If you are so proud of the Mail-archive archive, why not include it in the List-Archive: header field? (It will take a comma separated list, no?) Brad Please try checking the Mailman FAQ Wizard before accusing Brad us of not providing some sort of functionality that you find Brad to be critical. Perhaps it is lost on those who are not accustomed to it, but reading current or archived mail as if it were news is vastly more convenient than reading mail through a web interface, IMHO. jam pgpIwMtHQCUzj.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
Brad == Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Brad Clearly, there is a benefit here to the Gmane users, Brad potentially even a commercial benefit. But what do they Brad contribute back to the larger Mailman community? I don't think that's a useful question to ask. Open source is not about paybacks. (Although copyleft clearly is, to many people.) Open source is about payforwards. I do something for you, and you do something for somebody else. What goes around, comes around, eventually. I think Gmane qualifies on that score: I know a lot of contributors to open source projects who think Gmane makes their work more effective. In the case of Gmane, I know the [EMAIL PROTECTED] address; I can't think of any code contributions off the top of my head, but John has impressed me as someone who makes good contributions to discussion on several lists. I'd be sorry to lose his contributions, even though I'm not willing to follow his lead in this case. Isn't his support (along with others like him) enough to qualify Gmane as a contributor? IMHO, it should be. Brad If they were to actually operate by the rules they Brad espouse, [...]. But we know they're not operating by those Brad rules. Aye, there's the rub. I don't much like the rules that they actually play by. The procedures are biased toward producing mistakes of this kind. And by the nature of their service they tend to impose their standards for privacy protection etc on the lists that they gateway. The combination is not appealing for Mailman, I'm afraid. -- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of TsukubaTennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can do free software business; ask what your business can do for free software. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
jam == John A Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: sjt I missed at least one of your posts, receiving Brad's reply sjt to it almost 24 hours in advance of your post. Even today sjt this is common for netnews. jam Sorry, Gmane is not netnews. Gmane is not Usenet. OK, so that's not due to Gmane, it's due to the fact that you have been using Gmane. Different mechanism, same result. jam I am at a loss however to understand any of this being jam attributable to or in any way related to netnews or to Gmane. jam Perhaps you would be kind enough to show the evidence upon jam which you base this connection? The circumstantial evidence. Be thankful nobody's in a hanging mood. :-) (Yes, I know about the post hoc fallacy.) sjt Gmane started its service for no apparent reason without sjt notifying anyone, jam Lars should have consulted you in 2002 before offering a jam mailing list archive to The Net, right? Of any lists I administer, yes. I was a bit peeved when I found out months after the fact that they had been subscribed, despite having no objection in principle. sjt they stopped it for no apparent reason jam ?!? jam You mean Gmane stopped carrying the mailman-* lists? Yes. jam Lars said, The mailman people requested that they be jam removed, see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/9291. Brad says he didn't, at least not in the past week. There are others who can speak for Mailman, but Lars apparently doesn't see the need to identify who he's listening to. So maybe he acted on the rumor that Brad was _going_ to ask him. Is that any way to run a railroad? sjt without notifying anyone. jam See http://article.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/9293. No, I'm not going to look, and you're way out of bounds for suggesting that anybody *should* look. It's the other way around; those who want the Gmane service should take it up here (more precisely, with [EMAIL PROTECTED]). Also, Gmane should get confirmation from the list owner whenever it subscribes or unsubscribes, for exactly the same reason that Mailman gets confirmation from a user when it subscribes or unsubscribes. sjt They have a history of being an attractive nuisance sjt (publishing email addresses and other spam-facilitating sjt activities). It's fundamentally irresponsible, but that is sjt the way they operate. jam Did you have a similar view of Altavista ten years or so ago? Yes and no. Yes; of course I support the robots.txt protocol, and that is because there were a number of incidents of undesired indexing. On the other hand, no. First, at the time there was no protocol for saying don't index. This isn't true for finding list owners, the informal use of LIST-owner and/or LIST-admin goes back to early majordomo at least, maybe back to UCSD listserv. Second, Altavista et al simply link to what is publically available anyway, which is part of the advertised functioning of the web, and is a practice that goes back to the earliest days of writing. Gmane on the other hand copies and retransmits (specifically forbidden by copyright law, unless you have explicit permission from the copyright holder) and can also _change_ what is publically available on the web. The potential problems with those behaviors have been known since ancient times, too (which is part of why copyright exists, and and most of why many jurisdictions have inalienable author's rights as well). Third, if third parties subscribe a list to Gmane, the list-owner's membership-management prerogatives are usurped. This is not true of indexing. jam List owners (or more accurately, whoever subscribes a list to jam Gmane) have a number of choices (Posting allowed, Read only, jam List member only posting, No posting through Gmane, Encrypt jam addresses, Spam tagging, and more). ISTM choosing the jam appropriate posting option and encrypted address would go a jam long way toward reducing the nuisances. I agree 100%. The problem is your parenthetical remark. The Mailman admins are on the record as not wanting these lists on Gmane. I think it reasonable to suppose they did not subscribe Gmane to the lists. Therefore somebody else did, and since they are not the admins, they are far too likely to be careless about such nuances. jam Gmane is a Free Public Service. Like the man said, If it jam cannot be abused, it is not free. Such is the world. jam Blame Gmane because bad people use it. :) No, I blame Gmane because they don't care enough whether it is used for bad purposes. If I were running Gmane, the subscription process would only be open to list owners. Evidently it is not so restricted. In other words, Gmane is asking those who do _not_ want to be subscribed to correct any mistakes and bear the burden of any harm done. jam I have suggested to list owners that sooner or later someone jam will likely subscribe their list to
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
All this discussion is starting to sound like a game of Who struck John? (BTW, before this, I'd never heard of Gmane.) Taking what everyone's said a face value, Gmane provides a service that some people like. The admins/owners of the MM list don't like Gmane's policies, thus don't want to participate. Seems kind of simple. For my money ($0.02), there's seldom any utility in gate'ing a mailing list to a usenet group, they operate in fundementally different ways and are used in different ways. For this list, which is fairly low traffic as lists go and which has a good archive, what features of newsgroup distribution enhance it's usability. We already know that there are propagation delays between usenet and lists. If you want to see threads, you can use a MUA that does them (I don't bother, no need). [I also wonder if Gmane is the reason that my spam at this address has gone up by a factor of 5-7x in the last month] z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
Just to try to clear the record here. I noticed in a roughly 24 hour period beginning yesterday morning and ending this morning, there were delays of many hours in delivering my email copies of my posts and some other posts. These delays were between bag.python.org and servers named smtp-*.xs4all.nl (which is I think where python.org is hosted). So missing posts, posts out of sequence etc. from approximately noon GMT on FEB 16 to about noon GMT on Feb 17 appear to be due to an outgoing mail issue at xs4all.nl and not due to anyone's particular method of reading them (unless you read the pipermail archive which I think has been current throughout). -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 10:17 AM -0800 2006-02-17, Mark Sapiro wrote: These delays were between bag.python.org and servers named smtp-*.xs4all.nl (which is I think where python.org is hosted). So missing posts, posts out of sequence etc. from approximately noon GMT on FEB 16 to about noon GMT on Feb 17 appear to be due to an outgoing mail issue at xs4all.nl and not due to anyone's particular method of reading them (unless you read the pipermail archive which I think has been current throughout). This is correct. I just found out this morning that they've been doing some maintenance on their systems, and depending on the precise circumstances of when a particular message came in and what was happening at that time, there may have been an attempt to deliver a given outgoing message which was temporarily rejected, causing that message to be re-queued and retried at a later time. The issue is that we do enough volume that this caused a fairly significant backlog of messages, which I believe is now mostly cleared up. Of course, I've been away from my computer all day, so I was not able to help work on resolving the problem at a time when that would have done some good. I will tweak our configuration so that we should be more immune to these kinds of problems in the future, and we try to guarantee that we retry delivery on each and every message faster than we had done in the past. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Python.org Postmaster Team -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 2:34 PM +0900 2006-02-17, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I don't think that's a useful question to ask. Open source is not about paybacks. (Although copyleft clearly is, to many people.) Open source is about payforwards. I do something for you, and you do something for somebody else. I'll accept that premise, at least for the moment. I think Gmane qualifies on that score: I know a lot of contributors to open source projects who think Gmane makes their work more effective. I'm not convinced. They appear to be running a pretty fast and loose operation, without much care being paid to what they're doing (or risking) to projects such as ours. They're not even abiding by the rules that they had promised us they would honor, the last time we spoke to them -- something like about a year ago. Aye, there's the rub. I don't much like the rules that they actually play by. The procedures are biased toward producing mistakes of this kind. And by the nature of their service they tend to impose their standards for privacy protection etc on the lists that they gateway. The combination is not appealing for Mailman, I'm afraid. The combination is not appealing in general, I'm afraid. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 1:32 AM -0500 2006-02-17, John A. Martin wrote: You would have one look at a FAQ Wizard after seeing the specific unqualified assertion above? Last time I looked, the Mailman FAQs 1.11 and 1.18 recommend Gmane along with Mail-archive while 1.11 notes that the latter runs Google ads. The Mailman FAQ Wizard can be edited by anyone, as you well know. If you were to search again for Gmane, you would find that the references were considerably less favourable. Most recently, it looks like we got FAQ spam from someone pumping the nabble.com gateway/archive service, and you damn well better believe I'm going to be looking really close at this. If you are so proud of the Mail-archive archive, why not include it in the List-Archive: header field? (It will take a comma separated list, no?) Yes, it would take a comma separated list, and I don't believe that is allowed by the RFCs. If you were to check the FAQ Wizard again, you would note that mail-archive.com is listed as being the official gateway/searchable archive service. Brad Please try checking the Mailman FAQ Wizard before accusing Brad us of not providing some sort of functionality that you find Brad to be critical. Perhaps it is lost on those who are not accustomed to it, but reading current or archived mail as if it were news is vastly more convenient than reading mail through a web interface, IMHO. Perhaps it is lost on those who are not accustomed to it, but common courtesy requires that you check the FAQ before you post a question that is answered in the FAQ. We work very hard to create the best FAQ we can, and try to keep things as up-to-date as we can manage, and we don't deserve to be abused by people like you for our failure to deliver a 100% perfect service -- for free (as in free beer), in our so-called spare time, no less. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 1:34 AM -0500 2006-02-17, John A. Martin wrote: Lars said, The mailman people requested that they be removed, see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/9291. IIRC, we requested that they be removed over a year ago, the last time we ran into this issue -- and when Lars found out that someone had nominated these lists for inclusion at Gmane without getting our approval, and when he found out that this was done in violation of his own policies of checking to make sure that this was approved by the listowner. So, we come back to this issue again, and what do we find? Just what exactly do you think our response should have been, once we discovered that our request to keep our lists out of Gmane had been violated a second time? Did you have a similar view of Altavista ten years or so ago? Before the existence of the ROBOTS.TXT standard, yes. Good web indexing sites will follow the rules that you set out for your website, and bad ones don't follow those rules. Hell yes, I will definitely work to prohibit bad web indexing sites from being able to access any site that I have any influence over. List owners (or more accurately, whoever subscribes a list to Gmane) have a number of choices (Posting allowed, Read only, List member only posting, No posting through Gmane, Encrypt addresses, Spam tagging, and more). ISTM choosing the appropriate posting option and encrypted address would go a long way toward reducing the nuisances. Not really. My problem is only partly with the technical matters in question. My problem really has more to do with the fact that Gmane is repeatedly violating their own policies for proper behaviour, and setting up gateways of our mailing lists without our approval, and this leads me to seriously question everything they do. Gmane is a Free Public Service. Like the man said, If it cannot be abused, it is not free. Such is the world. Blame Gmane because bad people use it. :) No, blame Gmane because it is either run poorly or is run in bad faith by bad people who pretend to be good. There's a saying which goes: Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Well, there's certainly either a fair amount of incompetence here, or a good amount of malice. You choose which you wish to believe in. I choose to believe that this most recent incidence is a result of incompetence and not outright malice, but at the end of the day I don't see that this really makes a difference. I have suggested to list owners that sooner or later someone will likely subscribe their list to Gmane. This is because it is there and there are folks that like to use it. To make the best of it I suggest that list owners might want to subscribe their lists themselves and perhaps get a better place (name) in the Gmane hierarchy but, most importantly, so they can choose the options themselves. Also they can more easily copy old archives to Gmane. Right, so everyone should go down to the local police station and get an RFID chip implanted and registered, because sooner or later that's what's going to happen anyway. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Do you really think anyone at Gmane subscribed the mailman-* lists? Don't you imagine that someone, probably a subscriber, subscribed the list? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 1:35 AM -0500 2006-02-17, John A. Martin wrote: Gmane offers a public service, available to anyone, not just to some private community. It's the community of their users. It doesn't matter that anyone could theoretically join this community, the fact of the matter is that most people do not currently belong to this community, and therefore the benefit in question is being provided to a very small group and the risk is being paid by someone else. If you read much in the way of Bruce Schneier's work, you will note that this is a cost externality, which is the same factor which leads to the current situation with spam. The fact that folks subscribe lists and use Gmane suggests that folks find it to be a service there that they prefer enough to take the trouble to use it. Fair enough. You may not prefer to read mail as if it were news but there are those that do. Granted. List owners may appreciate that Gmane makes their list more attractive but it also provides redundancy and diversity making the list archives mare robust. Gmane gathers statistics and makes charts that can be displayed on a list's web pages. We already have plenty of diversity. I'm not worried about that. If anything, there is a bit too much diversity, which helps to guarantee that the community stays fractured and isolated into multiple different groups, each focused around their own personal gateway/archive/forum site, and there is a resulting cost that is paid to the potential greater community which could only be realized if it were more organized and centralized. It would seem undeniable that Gmane provides a service that by some measure enhances the mailing lists that it carries. In the view of some, yes. But I see lots of potential risks here, and I see that most of those risks will be paid by us and our members and not Gmane. As such, I don't see an overall benefit being given to us or the greater Mailman community, and I am opposed to this so-called service that Gmane offers. I fail to understand how Gmane can have taken your content without your permission. Gmane must have complied with whatever you required for subscription to your lists, and their subscription would seem to entitle them to take exactly the same content that you send, or make available, to them or any other subscriber. You speak as if you view what you give any other subscriber as theft when you give it to Gmane. We give individuals the right to read messages posted to the list, and to post their own questions to the list, along being able to read the FAQ and all the associated documentation, but we don't give them a right to redistribute this content. If this is not made clear in your subscription notice, then I will work with the other listowners to try to clarify this. According to Lars, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/9291, he must have made a mistake. Where did he say he had fixed a procedural problem? That would be the procedural problem that he supposedly fixed something like a year ago, the last time we ran into this problem with Gmane. Have you been as uneasy that Altavista and Google and everyone between might turn a profit in part because they facilitate access to your not-for profit material? No, because they're simply pointing at the content which I make freely available. They may have cached a local copy, but my copy on my site is the one that is primarily referenced. As for the rest, the more I discuss this subject, and the more I look at what they did to us last time, and what they've done to us this time, the more opposed I am to the way that Gmane operates, and the more opposed I am to having them gateway or archive any mailing lists that I am associated with anywhere. You're not likely to convince as a result of continuing to harangue me on this topic. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 1:37 AM -0500 2006-02-17, John A. Martin wrote: I'm not sure I follow you here. How do you think Gmane should know _a priori_ whether someone subscribing a list to Gmane is actually acting for the list owner? Yes, either acting directly on behalf of the list owner(s), or at least with their explicit approval. No gateway or archive should be set up without meeting this minimal test. Or are you saying that anyone anywhere should be able to spam you for any reason, and have you bear the costs of receiving those messages? If you are speaking of the last few days and one time in the past then perhaps you haven't seen http://article.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/9291. No, I was speaking of the previous incident, not this one. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 1:38 AM -0500 2006-02-17, John A. Martin wrote: Did you consider selecting the option to have Gmane do address obfuscation? I suppose that would require someone at Gmane to intervene if your list had been subscribed by a third party. Considering the rest of the things that Gmane has gotten wrong on this most recent incidence, I am not at all convinced that they would be capable of adequately meeting all our technical concerns. Or, even if they can meet them today, I am not at all convinced that they would continue to meet those technical concerns in the future -- they could just as easily go back to a previous configuration where various undesirable activities were performed or allowed. They need to prove to me that they can operate by certain minimum rules of net.decency, and that they can continue to uphold these standards of operation for an extended period of time, before I would be willing to consider whether or not they could meet the technical requirements. The without permission bit is I think a bit misplaced. Any subscriber can do what they will with list mail they receive. They can (and do in other venues) put list mail to public and private archives, send it to other lists, and expose it to search engines anywhere. In fact Gmane removes lists when there objections. I don't know what more it is reasonable to expect from Gmane. And good spammers remove your name from their lists when you request that they do so. I see very little difference here. If Gmane was such a menace to the lists why was it a long, long time before the issue was brought to Lars attention again? Dunno. Why did this ever have to be an issue to begin with? -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 3:56 PM +0900 2006-02-16, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: For what it's worth, although I don't use Gmane and consider their operation to be irresponsible, I'm moderately in favor of allowing them to gateway the Mailman lists for the convenience it apparently affords many users. I'm of two minds when it comes to Gmane. On the one hand, they take our content, store a copy locally, index that local content, and then make that available to their user base. Clearly, there is a benefit here to the Gmane users, potentially even a commercial benefit. But what do they contribute back to the larger Mailman community? I don't see anything -- they take and take and take, and they give to their own private community, but I don't see them giving anything back to us. On the other hand, I understand that there are some people in this community who like to use Gmane, and I would not be generally opposed to them being able to read our content and participate in our discussions through a news gateway solution. And Gmane has a news gateway solution. But the problem is that it is out of our control, and I have personal experience in the kind of spewage that can occur when these sorts of things go haywire. Okay, maybe it's a private news spool so these kinds of spewage are less likely, but I still don't know enough about their internal operations to help guarantee that these sorts of things don't happen to us. Given our past history with Gmane and the fact that they take our content without our permission, and that they've supposedly fixed this procedural problem and yet they did it again, I believe that we have good reason to distrust them. Personally, all code I write gets published under a BSD-style license. And all the slides I create for all the invited talks I do at various conferences, gets published under a Creative Commons 2.0 Non-commercial/share-alike license. So, I don't mind too much if someone takes my own personal content and makes that available somewhere else -- but they had better not be making a profit on doing so. However, I am extremely uncomfortable with taking the content created by an entire community and then leeching off that. Taking the content of a single person is one thing, taking the content of an entire community is quite something else. Yet, I find myself holding back. I want to like Gmane. I get their concept, and I understand the benefit to their members. I would like to be able to allow them to continue gatewaying these lists. If they were to actually operate by the rules they espouse, and they were to provide some sort of benefit back to the communities whose content they are taking, I would support their gateway service. But we know they're not operating by those rules, and I don't see their benefit back to the larger Mailman community. Unless I'm missing something pretty big, I don't see a way out of this situation with a positive outcome for Gmane. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
Brad == Brad Knowles Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane? Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:21:13 +0100 Brad I'm of two minds when it comes to Gmane. Brad On the one hand, they take our content, store a copy Brad locally, index that local content, and then make that Brad available to their user base. Clearly, there is a benefit Brad here to the Gmane users, potentially even a commercial Brad benefit. But what do they contribute back to the larger Brad Mailman community? I don't see anything -- they take and Brad take and take, and they give to their own private community, Brad but I don't see them giving anything back to us. Gmane offers a public service, available to anyone, not just to some private community. I think one would be hard put to it to find evidence of commercial interests other than good will (in the economic sense) at Gmane. It is also perhaps a fair bet that Gmane is unlikely to assist a tyrannical regime in policing who uses Gmane or for what purpose. The fact that folks subscribe lists and use Gmane suggests that folks find it to be a service there that they prefer enough to take the trouble to use it. You may not prefer to read mail as if it were news but there are those that do. Beyond that some folks like the web interfaces that offer frames and threads and a blog-like flat interface while others like the four kinds of RSS feeds besides the NNTP interface. Users also have access to a couple of small handy features like what amounts to a pseudo-anonymous (obfuscated) mail forwarding service (using Gmane's archive address encryption scheme) and having an 'Archived-At:' field in each article header (at least on the NNTP side). List owners may appreciate that Gmane makes their list more attractive but it also provides redundancy and diversity making the list archives mare robust. Gmane gathers statistics and makes charts that can be displayed on a list's web pages. It would seem undeniable that Gmane provides a service that by some measure enhances the mailing lists that it carries. What are you looking for Gmane to do for the larger Mailman community? Provide some benefit to lists than do not use Gmane? What does Gmane take and take and take from lists that do not use Gmane? And what, precisely, does Gmane take and take and take from subscribed lists that is not given freely to any list subscriber? While we are at it, what does Mailman do for the larger community that does not use its software? Do we consider different standards for a service that is offered freely to the public than for software so offered? BTW all the Gmane software and all of the web pages are freely available, see http://gmane.org/dist.php. Brad Gmane has a news gateway solution. But the problem is that Brad it is out of our control, and I have personal experience in Brad the kind of spewage that can occur when these sorts of Brad things go haywire. Can you be mare specific? Haven't you lost control as soon as you send a mail to any address you do not control? What kind of spewage? What sorts of things go haywire. How many boogiemen are hiding in one sentence? Brad I still don't know enough about their internal operations to Brad help guarantee that these sorts of things don't happen to Brad us. You have perused the www.gmane.org, presumably? Have you asked questions on gmane.discuss? What sorts of things? Guarantees against unspecified hazards are unimpressive, IMHO. Brad Given our past history with Gmane and the fact that Brad take our content without our permission I fail to understand how Gmane can have taken your content without your permission. Gmane must have complied with whatever you required for subscription to your lists, and their subscription would seem to entitle them to take exactly the same content that you send, or make available, to them or any other subscriber. You speak as if you view what you give any other subscriber as theft when you give it to Gmane. Brad and that they've supposedly fixed this procedural problem Brad and yet they did it again, I believe that we have good Brad reason to distrust them. According to Lars, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/9291, he must have made a mistake. Where did he say he had fixed a procedural problem? Brad Personally, all code I write gets published under a Brad BSD-style license. And all the slides I create for all the Brad invited talks I do at various conferences, gets published Brad under a Creative Commons 2.0 Non-commercial/share-alike Brad license. So, I don't mind too much if someone takes my own Brad personal content and makes that available somewhere else -- Brad but they had better not be making a profit on doing so. Have you been as uneasy that Altavista and Google and everyone between might turn a profit in part because they facilitate access to your not-for profit material
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
Brad == Brad Knowles Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane? Thu, 16 Feb 2006 04:29:55 +0100 Brad At 10:07 PM -0500 2006-02-15, John A. Martin wrote: Heaven forfend! What harm will Gmane do. Brad Well, the fact that these mailing lists were gatewayed Brad to Gmane without the nominator getting our approval, and Brad without Gmane confirming that this was an approved action, Brad is pretty clear evidence to me that they don't bother to Brad follow their own rules regarding the intellectual property Brad of others. I'm not sure I follow you here. How do you think Gmane should know _a priori_ whether someone subscribing a list to Gmane is actually acting for the list owner? I'm not sure what rules you are referring to. Can you point me to something? Brad The fact that they personally promised me that this Brad problem had been fixed after the last time I dealt with Brad them, and yet we find that this has happened yet once again, Brad is simply more fuel for the fire. If you are speaking of the last few days and one time in the past then perhaps you haven't seen http://article.gmane.org/gmane.discuss/9291. I've been subscribed to four news.gmane.org/gmane.mail.mailman.* groups for some time (months or years) and hadn't noticed them go defunct before a few days ago. I'd like to understand better what has happened. Could you please tell me when you first asked to have the lists removed. What was the response? When did you notice again that they were on Gmane? jam pgp0jESMnqz6t.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] GMane?
It appears that the mailman lists have disappeared from GMane. That's a bit inconvenient. Are there any other newsgroups that mirror this mailing list? I looked around some, but didn't see any. In the meantime, I've re-enabled email delivery, but that's not nearly as convenient as using newsgroup access for a list like this. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 9:41 AM -0500 2006-02-15, John Swartzentruber wrote: It appears that the mailman lists have disappeared from GMane. That's a bit inconvenient. Are there any other newsgroups that mirror this mailing list? I looked around some, but didn't see any. I'm not aware of any. Moreover, if there are such gateways, we would work actively to shut them down for the same reasons that we wish to prevent Gmane from gatewaying them. But I still have to have my official talk with Barry and the other postmasters/listowners to see what we want our consensus policy to be. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 12:46 PM -0500 2006-02-15, John A. Martin wrote: BradBut I still have to have my official talk with Barry Bradand the other postmasters/listowners to see what we Bradwant our consensus policy to be. Do you care what your subscribers prefer? Yes. We also care that others having their own gateways will be doing things that are out of our control, and may cause much more damage to the mailing list and all mailing list recipients, than the few who might potentially be served by a properly run gateway. We have to balance the potential risk against the potential benefit, both with the current operators and their operations, and with any potential future operators and their operations. This is a potentially slippery slope here, and we need to make sure of our footing. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
John == John Swartzentruber [Mailman-Users] GMane? Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:41:02 -0500 John It appears that the mailman lists have disappeared from John GMane. That's a bit inconvenient. Are there any other John newsgroups that mirror this mailing list? I looked around John some, but didn't see any. In the meantime, I've re-enabled John email delivery, but that's not nearly as convenient as using John newsgroup access for a list like this. Agreed. Not only is this list, Mailman-Users, but also Mailman-Announce and Mailman-Developers appear to have simultaneously disappeared from Gmane. Is there someone who doesn't like Gmane? If so, please explain your objections. Many lists use Gmane with satisfaction. Why should the Mailman lists be different? It is IMHO better for list owners, rather than random users, to subscribe lists to Gmane because owners can better choose names and options and coordinate old archives. I should think the Gmane archives alone would make Gmane attractive to owners of lists with public archives, to say nothing about the convenience of News and RSS for subscribers. jam pgpuKrMgaKaze.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, John A. Martin wrote: Not only is this list, Mailman-Users, but also Mailman-Announce and Mailman-Developers appear to have simultaneously disappeared from Gmane. Is there someone who doesn't like Gmane? If so, please explain your objections. Many lists use Gmane with satisfaction. Why should the Mailman lists be different? Actually you are answering your own question. This was discussed on the list BEFORE they were removed. However since you were reading via newsgroups -- you missed it. I always wondered how people could possibly post a question that had been beated to death on a list all day, and I'm starting to think newsgroup reading mode is the reason. == Chris Candreva -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
Brad == Brad Knowles Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane? Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:21:08 +0100 Brad At 9:41 AM -0500 2006-02-15, John Swartzentruber wrote: It appears that the mailman lists have disappeared from GMane. That's a bit inconvenient. Are there any other newsgroups that mirror this mailing list? I looked around some, but didn't see any. Brad I'm not aware of any. Moreover, if there are such Brad gateways, we would work actively to shut them down for Brad the same reasons that we wish to prevent Gmane from Brad gatewaying them. And why is that? Brad But I still have to have my official talk with Barry Brad and the other postmasters/listowners to see what we Brad want our consensus policy to be. Do you care what your subscribers prefer? jam pgp1dwWbMqgeO.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
CC == Christopher X Candreva Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane? Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:53:37 -0500 (EST) CC On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, John A. Martin wrote: Not only is this list, Mailman-Users, but also Mailman-Announce and Mailman-Developers appear to have simultaneously disappeared from Gmane. Is there someone who doesn't like Gmane? If so, please explain your objections. Many lists use Gmane with satisfaction. Why should the Mailman lists be different? CC Actually you are answering your own question. This was CC discussed on the list BEFORE they were removed. However since CC you were reading via newsgroups -- you missed it. No. I read mailing lists and News the same. I read selectively based primarily upon the Subject. I noticed nothing in recent Subjects that suggested to me that action to block this list from Gmane was being discussed. I have read many mailing lists as newsgroups on Gmane for several years and have been unaware of missing anything substantial from a subscribed list. CC I always wondered how people could possibly post a question CC that had been beated to death on a list all day, and I'm CC starting to think newsgroup reading mode is the reason. Lay it perhaps instead to the disappearance of the conveniently searchable Gmane archive. A couple of days ago I noticed that the Mailman lists had disappeared From my display of Gmane groups. I did not react immediately thinking this might be corrected. After I discovered that the Mailman lists had apparently disappeared from Gmane I looked in the most recent python.org/pipermail archive and saw the article John Swartzentruber [Mailman-Users] GMane? Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:41:02 -0500 to which I responded, having noted the absence of a 'Re:' in the subject indicating that it was the start of a thread. In the absence of other articles on the subject of 'Gmane' in the same archive back a couple of weeks about an event of recent days, I believe my response to that article was appropriate. After seeing your criticism I looked at the python.org/pipermail archive of this list for January and February (to date) and used my browser to search those two pages for 'gmane' and for 'news'. The only thing I found was a thread of three articles starting at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-February/049127.html discussing an issue that I take te be involved with Mailman's News gateway which has nothing to do with a mailing list subscribed to Gmane using the facilities at the Gmane web site. Please consider the likelihood that searching the Gmane archive, were it available, would have searched the entire articles in the archive and I would likely have seen at the outset where the question had been beaten to death all day. Absent a searchable archive, would you like to give a pointer for someone that does not read every article every day in every group to which he is subscribed? jam pgp35jq1chRyB.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
Brad == Brad Knowles Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane? Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:57:24 +0100 Brad Yes. We also care that others having their own Brad gateways will be doing things that are out of our control, Brad and may cause much more damage to the mailing list and all Brad mailing list recipients, than the few who might potentially Brad be served by a properly run gateway. Heaven forfend! What harm will Gmane do. Why does doing Gmane mean doing others? What do you fear from others that would follow from doing Gmane. Brad We have to balance the potential risk against the Brad potential benefit, both with the current operators and their Brad operations, and with any potential future operators and Brad their operations. What risk? Brad This is a potentially slippery slope here, and we need Brad to make sure of our footing. Many lists including same of the largest, and including some you are probably subscribed to' are on Gmane. What harm has come as a result? jam pgpnidxaGRtQi.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
At 10:06 PM -0500 2006-02-15, John A. Martin wrote: Absent a searchable archive, would you like to give a pointer for someone that does not read every article every day in every group to which he is subscribed? We've had an official searchable archive for many years. It is one of the many things that is discussed in the Mailman FAQ Wizard. Please try checking the Mailman FAQ Wizard before accusing us of not providing some sort of functionality that you find to be critical. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 LOPSA member since December 2005. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
Brad Knowles wrote: At 10:07 PM -0500 2006-02-15, John A. Martin wrote: Heaven forfend! What harm will Gmane do. Why does doing Gmane mean doing others? What do you fear from others that would follow from doing Gmane. Well, the fact that these mailing lists were gatewayed to Gmane without the nominator getting our approval, and without Gmane confirming that this was an approved action, is pretty clear evidence to me that they don't bother to follow their own rules regarding the intellectual property of others. The fact that they personally promised me that this problem had been fixed after the last time I dealt with them, and yet we find that this has happened yet once again, is simply more fuel for the fire. As one of the other admins for the mailman-users list, I just want to strongly echo Brad's position above. When we first asked Gmane to not gateway this list, one of the issues was that while our own archives munge the email address of list posters, the Gmane feed didn't do any munging. Instead Gmane leaked otherwise virgin email addresses out where they could (and were) scraped by spiders and subsequently sent spam. (Which is how I discovered that Gmane was gatewaying the list, when a freshly created email address started receiving spam very shortly after I started using it to post to mailman-users.) Taken together (gatewaying the list without permission, and exposing the email addresses to spammers) we were not very happy with Gmane's actions. So it's not that we are capriciously being mean to Gmane (and Gmane users) here. Gmane has earned our distrust. jc -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] GMane?
jam == John A Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jam I have read many mailing lists as newsgroups on Gmane for jam several years and have been unaware of missing anything jam substantial from a subscribed list. You may not be missing anything, but I missed at least one of your posts, receiving Brad's reply to it almost 24 hours in advance of your post. Even today this is common for netnews. CC I always wondered how people could possibly post a question CC that had been beated to death on a list all day, and I'm CC starting to think newsgroup reading mode is the reason. jam Lay it perhaps instead to the disappearance of the jam conveniently searchable Gmane archive. Easy come, easy go. Gmane started its service for no apparent reason without notifying anyone, they stopped it for no apparent reason without notifying anyone. They have a history of being an attractive nuisance (publishing email addresses and other spam-facilitating activities). It's fundamentally irresponsible, but that is the way they operate. Feel free to rely on them if you judge it appropriate to do so. But don't attribute their unreliability to Mailman's maintainers and volunteers---it's inherent in the way Gmane is organized and operates. For what it's worth, although I don't use Gmane and consider their operation to be irresponsible, I'm moderately in favor of allowing them to gateway the Mailman lists for the convenience it apparently affords many users. I don't really have a problem with the irresponsibility as such---I'd better not, everything *I* do comes with NO WARRANTY attached! However, when I publish software, people who don't want to assume all risk of using it are free not to use it. Similarly, the Mailman list admins should be free not to use Gmane, or to require Gmane improvements as a condition of using Gmane, if they dislike the risks it involves for (some of) their subscribers more than they like the conveniences (for some other subscribers). The fact that Gmane *re*subscribed to Mailman lists in violation of both their own policy and a previous request to cease and desist speaks volumes for the risks and their lack of respect for others' privacy, IMHO. -- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of TsukubaTennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can do free software business; ask what your business can do for free software. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
