Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
Perhaps off-topic, but is the storage model documented anywhere in detail? On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Seebs mailmate-l...@seebs.net wrote: On 8 Nov 2013, at 17:45, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote: I should also warn that moving messages from an online account to an offline account does not work well. Internally, MailMate never deletes a message from its source mailbox before it has been uploaded to the destination mailbox (when it's different accounts). There is actually no easy way to see this in MailMate (usually it's an intermediate state until synchronization), but it's possible to find these messages by using some internal virtual headers. I'll give this some thought. I keep coming back to the theory that maybe MailMate should have an option for offline accounts which basically consists of running a virtual IMAP server on a non-standard port and keeping a separate copy of that account's messages. The appeal here is that it gives you two copies of that mail; the anti-appeal is that it gives you two copies of that mail. But if you care about reliable backups more than space, well. -s ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate -- Jeffrey Horn http://www.failuretorefrain.com/jeff/ ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 10 Nov 2013, at 22:32, Jeff Horn wrote: Perhaps off-topic, but is the storage model documented anywhere in detail? No, I consider it an implementation detail, but I do answer questions about it. The important thing to know is that MailMate saves all emails as standard raw files. Each email in its own file. This means that any emails known to MailMate can always be found in the folder hierarchy located here: ~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Messages/ It is *not* safe to remove messages from this folder. -- Benny ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
Benny, On 10 Nov 2013, at 23:27, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote: The important thing to know is that MailMate saves all emails as standard raw files. Each email in its own file. This means that any emails known to MailMate can always be found in the folder hierarchy located here: ~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Messages/ Do you think there is any easy way to get these messages indexed via Spotlight? That’s the one thing I miss after leaving Mail.app - have emails turn up in Spotlight results. Thanks! - Markolf ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 10 Nov 2013, at 17:27, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote: ~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Messages/ It is *not* safe to remove messages from this folder. Good to know! Thanks. ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 3 Nov 2013, at 4:37, Seebs wrote: On 3 Nov 2013, at 3:29, Alasdair Muckart wrote: If you want fetch-and-store rather than server-stored you want something like POP rather than IMAP. Fetchmail to a local store you access using IMAP and MailMate would act the way you sound like you need and could be backed up locally. That's basically what I've been doing, only I was keeping the local store on a server in my house. Do you use time machine at all? If you do, then you should have backups of your MailMate cached messages in your local backups even if you don't have them on the server backups. Conveniently, I do. In fact, this machine is backed up fairly regularly to three different drives. Except, of course, that because I was running around like a headless chicken without my email stuff, it turned out that one of the drives had gotten unplugged from the hub (this machine is a laptop, so it moves around a bunch) a couple of days ago. But luck was with me, and I have backups of the cache of that server's messages that are newer than the last time the server was actually up. ... MailMate is now importing them into the new server's IMAP folders, which is looking like it will take 3-4 more hours. One approach (with limitations) to avoid this is to give MM a de facto local message store masquerading as an offline account. I did this for my historical archives, which imported via a tool that converted over a dozen years of Eudora mail into a Maildir tree that it served out via a rudimentary IMAP server. Once MM had imported the 250k messages in that tree, I offlined the account and shut down the miniserver. MM never complains and it has no trouble reading the mail in that account, despite about a year of not talking to the server it came from. I have also played around a little with a completely bogus account which I created using non-functional server info. I can create folders in it and move (or copy) messages into them, which get stored in a subdirectory of ~Library/Application Support/MailMate/Messages/IMAP/ just like those for any other account. One flaw in this approach which should be known if you use IMAP flags extensively is that if you ever have to rebuild your MM database from messages, you lose any flags that have been set on the messages in a fake account. ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 8 Nov 2013, at 18:15, Bill Cole wrote: [offline IMAP account as local storage] One flaw in this approach which should be known if you use IMAP flags extensively is that if you ever have to rebuild your MM database from messages, you lose any flags that have been set on the messages in a fake account. I should also warn that moving messages from an online account to an offline account does not work well. Internally, MailMate never deletes a message from its source mailbox before it has been uploaded to the destination mailbox (when it's different accounts). There is actually no easy way to see this in MailMate (usually it's an intermediate state until synchronization), but it's possible to find these messages by using some internal virtual headers. I'll give this some thought. -- Benny ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 8 Nov 2013, at 17:45, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote: I should also warn that moving messages from an online account to an offline account does not work well. Internally, MailMate never deletes a message from its source mailbox before it has been uploaded to the destination mailbox (when it's different accounts). There is actually no easy way to see this in MailMate (usually it's an intermediate state until synchronization), but it's possible to find these messages by using some internal virtual headers. I'll give this some thought. I keep coming back to the theory that maybe MailMate should have an option for offline accounts which basically consists of running a virtual IMAP server on a non-standard port and keeping a separate copy of that account's messages. The appeal here is that it gives you two copies of that mail; the anti-appeal is that it gives you two copies of that mail. But if you care about reliable backups more than space, well. -s ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 5 Nov 2013, at 17:46, Eric A. Meyer wrote: On 4 Nov 2013, at 3:56, m...@assai.com.au wrote: What I would like to see in MailMate is the option to have on my Mac mail folders. This provides not only ways of safeguarding mail (important: this can have legal implications these days), but also of having search access to historic emails which may not be on the current iMap server. I agree with all of this wholeheartedly. I know how IMAP is meant to work, but the lack of local safeguards in situations like Seebs', or worse still given an unannounced decision by a mail server admin to dump messages past a certain age in order to save disk space (or whatever), is one of the things that worries me about using MailMate. I'll do what I can to make this more unlikely to happen (implement some of the warnings discussed with Seebs), but in most cases this problem is not much different than the risk of a local corrupted (or stolen) disk. The exception is, of course, if the server admin quietly drops old messages and the user does not notice/know this, but I don't think that would keep them in business for very long (and that goes for any type of cloud service). -- Benny ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 6 Nov 2013, at 4:08, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote: I'll do what I can to make this more unlikely to happen (implement some of the warnings discussed with Seebs), but in most cases this problem is not much different than the risk of a local corrupted (or stolen) disk. The exception is, of course, if the server admin quietly drops old messages and the user does not notice/know this, but I don't think that would keep them in business for very long (and that goes for any type of cloud service). The main one that's affected me elsewhere is that work has an INSANELY tiny message quota, so at work, I run fetchmail to a pop3 server and use a pop3 client. -s ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
What I like about Apple Mail is that allows for both iMap folders and on my Mac folders. What I do is I automatically copy all incoming mail into on my Mac folders, so I have multiple backups: (a) on the iMap server (b) on my Mac (c) in my Mac's backup system (though of course, this lags.) What I would like to see in MailMate is the option to have on my Mac mail folders. This provides not only ways of safeguarding mail (important: this can have legal implications these days), but also of having search access to historic emails which may not be on the current iMap server. David On 3 Nov 2013, at 17:59, mailmate-l...@seebs.net wrote: S. A mail server went kerplooie. And the next time I connected to the new server... Mailmate deleted all the messages which had previously been considered to be associated with that account, because they were no longer present on the server. Er. That is exactly the opposite of what I wanted. Totally. In every way. Is there a way to configure Mailmate to obtain mail from a server, but not to ever delete mail based on changes in the server? Also, is there any chance that there's a way I can retrieve the several thousand messages Mailmate just deleted? I have some limited backups of the server, but they are somewhat out of date, and I got a lot of mail in the last week or so that I was, frankly, sort of hoping not to have disappear forever. I think I've run into this before, with the notion that IMAP's goal is synchronization. But I don't want synchronization; I want to download mail and then keep it forever. I absolutely, positively, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER, want Mailmate to conclude that because a file is missing on a server, obviously I don't want it anymore! -s ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 3 Nov 2013, at 19:59, mailmate-l...@seebs.net wrote: I think I've run into this before, with the notion that IMAP's goal is synchronization. But I don't want synchronization; I want to download mail and then keep it forever. I absolutely, positively, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER, want Mailmate to conclude that because a file is missing on a server, obviously I don't want it anymore! I'm sorry to hear you've had a mail loss event. I've been through that myself, and it's no fun. If you want fetch-and-store rather than server-stored you want something like POP rather than IMAP. Fetchmail to a local store you access using IMAP and MailMate would act the way you sound like you need and could be backed up locally. Do you use time machine at all? If you do, then you should have backups of your MailMate cached messages in your local backups even if you don't have them on the server backups. -- Alasdair Muckart | William de Wyke | http://wherearetheelves.net There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin, 1819-1900. ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
Re: [MlMt] Uh-oh. Imap just bit me...
On 3 Nov 2013, at 3:29, Alasdair Muckart wrote: If you want fetch-and-store rather than server-stored you want something like POP rather than IMAP. Fetchmail to a local store you access using IMAP and MailMate would act the way you sound like you need and could be backed up locally. That's basically what I've been doing, only I was keeping the local store on a server in my house. Do you use time machine at all? If you do, then you should have backups of your MailMate cached messages in your local backups even if you don't have them on the server backups. Conveniently, I do. In fact, this machine is backed up fairly regularly to three different drives. Except, of course, that because I was running around like a headless chicken without my email stuff, it turned out that one of the drives had gotten unplugged from the hub (this machine is a laptop, so it moves around a bunch) a couple of days ago. But luck was with me, and I have backups of the cache of that server's messages that are newer than the last time the server was actually up. ... MailMate is now importing them into the new server's IMAP folders, which is looking like it will take 3-4 more hours. -s ___ mailmate mailing list mailmate@lists.freron.com http://lists.freron.com/listinfo/mailmate
