Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Suresh Ramasubramanian via mailop]

I did talk to an individual some years back – yes, at a bar, believe it or not 
– who sincerely believed that the “junk” folder was a place where he could 
archive all his email that he wanted to keep but didn’t want to clutter his 
inbox.

From: mailop  on behalf of Zack Aab via mailop 

Date: Saturday, 6 February 2021 at 4:58 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org 
Subject: Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to 
stop outbound spam..
Although I'm not terribly qualified to comment on Gmail's policies or design 
decisions, I thought I'd throw in an anecdote about the "Report Spam" user 
experience:
A random guy I talked to in a bar (it was a work trip, he asked why I was in 
town, etc) told me that he used the "Report Phishing" function in Gmail as a 
(his words) "Super Spam Report" for when he was particularly annoyed at a 
marketing email or sender.
I think he is an example that even with clear and simple labels like "Report 
Phishing" vs "Report Spam," if the user can't _see_ what happens when they 
click a button, they're going to decide for themselves what that button 
does...or something like that... :-)

Zack Aab

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 5:24 PM Marcel Becker via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:58 Jay Hennigan via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
Simply changing "Junk" to "Report as
spam" would help a lot.

Unfortunately no, it would not.

- Marcel

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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Zack Aab via mailop]

Although I'm not terribly qualified to comment on Gmail's policies or
design decisions, I thought I'd throw in an anecdote about the "Report
Spam" user experience:
A random guy I talked to in a bar (it was a work trip, he asked why I was
in town, etc) told me that he used the "Report Phishing" function in Gmail
as a (his words) "Super Spam Report" for when he was particularly annoyed
at a marketing email or sender.
I think he is an example that even with clear and simple labels like
"Report Phishing" vs "Report Spam," if the user can't _see_ what happens
when they click a button, they're going to decide for themselves what that
button does...or something like that... :-)

Zack Aab

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 5:24 PM Marcel Becker via mailop 
wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:58 Jay Hennigan via mailop 
> wrote:
>
>> Simply changing "Junk" to "Report as
>> spam" would help a lot.
>
>
> Unfortunately no, it would not.
>
> - Marcel
>
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia  5.02.2021 o godz. 15:03:01 Grant Taylor via mailop pisze:
> Changing the effort involved /might/ make a difference.  E.g. have
> delete be a one click action and report be a two click action vi a
> confirmation (blocking modal) dialog box.
> 
> Aside:  The confirmation dialog box might also provide an
> opportunity to provide other options like "This message appears to
> be from a mailing list, would you like to unsubscribe? [Yes,
> unsubscribe] / [No, report...]".

I know at least one quite big (at least in my country) webmail provider that
does exactly that.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Andrew C Aitchison via mailop]

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote:


On 2/5/21 1:44 PM, Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote:
I blame the big webmail providers for this. The "Delete" and "Junk" buttons 
are too similar in the UI. Simply changing "Junk" to "Report as spam" would 
help a lot.


I don't think the label will make much difference.

Changing the effort involved /might/ make a difference.  E.g. have delete be 
a one click action and report be a two click action vi a confirmation 
(blocking modal) dialog box.


On my tablet, the wastebin/trash icon shows beside a menu (burger?) which
opens to include the "Report spam" option.

I think GMail have employed some competent user experience designers,
we should see what they do before speculating.

Aside:  The confirmation dialog box might also provide an opportunity to 
provide other options like "This message appears to be from a mailing list, 
would you like to unsubscribe? [Yes, unsubscribe] / [No, report...]".


Incentivize the more proper operation, delete.  De-incentivize the less 
proper operation, report.


--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Marcel Becker via mailop]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 12:58 Jay Hennigan via mailop 
wrote:

> Simply changing "Junk" to "Report as
> spam" would help a lot.


Unfortunately no, it would not.

- Marcel
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Grant Taylor via mailop]

On 2/5/21 1:44 PM, Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote:
I blame the big webmail providers for this. The "Delete" and "Junk" 
buttons are too similar in the UI. Simply changing "Junk" to "Report as 
spam" would help a lot.


I don't think the label will make much difference.

Changing the effort involved /might/ make a difference.  E.g. have 
delete be a one click action and report be a two click action vi a 
confirmation (blocking modal) dialog box.


Aside:  The confirmation dialog box might also provide an opportunity to 
provide other options like "This message appears to be from a mailing 
list, would you like to unsubscribe? [Yes, unsubscribe] / [No, report...]".


Incentivize the more proper operation, delete.  De-incentivize the less 
proper operation, report.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Andrew C Aitchison via mailop]

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote:


On 2/5/21 09:41, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop wrote:
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:18 AM Thomas Walter via mailop 
 wrote:


You can not trust users to identify spam.


Sure you can.  You can trust them to identify what *they* consider to be 
spam.  It just doesn't jive with what we consider to be spam.


I blame the big webmail providers for this. The "Delete" and "Junk" buttons 
are too similar in the UI. Simply changing "Junk" to "Report as spam" would 
help a lot.


As I quoted in an earlier message, at least GMail already did that
- OK, the label says "Report spam" with no "as" :-)

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Jay Hennigan via mailop]

On 2/5/21 09:41, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop wrote:

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:18 AM Thomas Walter via mailop  
wrote:

You can not trust users to identify spam.


Sure you can.  You can trust them to identify what *they* consider to be spam.  
It just doesn't jive with what we consider to be spam.


I blame the big webmail providers for this. The "Delete" and "Junk" 
buttons are too similar in the UI. Simply changing "Junk" to "Report as 
spam" would help a lot.



--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Camille - Clean Mailbox via mailop]

Also, a trusted user can be hacked and his account hijacked to send spam.

> Le 5 févr. 2021 à 18:25, Marcel Becker via mailop  a écrit 
> :
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:18 AM Thomas Walter via mailop  
>> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> You can not trust users to identify spam. 
> 
> This. A Thousand times this. A lot of us privileged with the insight into how 
> mail technically works (or so) have difficulties grasping how real people use 
> mail. And the available abuse reporting channels.
> 
>  
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop]

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:18 AM Thomas Walter via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> You can not trust users to identify spam. 

Sure you can.  You can trust them to identify what *they* consider to be spam.  
It just doesn't jive with what we consider to be spam. 

That is, always has been, and always will be part of the problem.

Anne

--
Anne P. Mitchell,  Attorney at Law
Dean of Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
CEO, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)

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Re: [mailop] Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Luis E . Muñoz via mailop]

On 5 Feb 2021, at 7:25, Michael Orlitzky via mailop wrote:

> Pay more and more people to do it, until the number of unhandled abuse
> reports at the end of the day is zero. It scales linearly.

Here's where I stopped reading. It does not scale linearly.

-lem
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Marcel Becker via mailop]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:18 AM Thomas Walter via mailop 
wrote:

>
> You can not trust users to identify spam.
>

This. A Thousand times this. A lot of us privileged with the insight into
how mail technically works (or so) have difficulties grasping how real
people use mail. And the available abuse reporting channels.
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Thomas Walter via mailop]

Hello,

On 05.02.21 17:23, Andrew C Aitchison via mailop wrote:
> Would it be useful to include a link in each email header, similar to
> List-Unsubscribe: and relatives, but unique to each message sent,
> so that recipients could give similar feedback to the sending service ?

You can not trust users to identify spam. "I don't want emails from my
aunt twice a week.", "I don't want to receive this subscribed newsletter
anymore, but I don't bother to unsubscribe", ... all these are "SPAM!"
these days.

Also receiving multiple abuse emails per week from Microsoft because
users can not differentiate between "Junk" and "Trash" (if only because
of language issues) really made me mistrust that system.

Regards,
Thomas Walter

-- 
Thomas Walter
Datenverarbeitungszentrale

FH Münster
- University of Applied Sciences -
Corrensstr. 25, Raum B 112
48149 Münster

Tel: +49 251 83 64 908
Fax: +49 251 83 64 910
www.fh-muenster.de/dvz/



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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Michael Orlitzky via mailop]

On Fri, 2021-02-05 at 08:32 -0800, Marcel Becker via mailop wrote:
> 
> > I don't see ignoring spam to decrease expenses
> > 
> 
> I see you actually didn’t read Brandon’s mail.
> 

On the contrary. Each starts from the position of having gotten rich
giving guns to children, and proceeds to discuss the technical
difficulties involved with keeping everyone from shooting each other in
the face.

If you're not willing to not be an asshole, it is indeed a difficult
problem.


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Re: [mailop] Microsoft antispam

[Ale via mailop]

Ok thanks, I didn't know that. I'm gonna correct it right now.

cheers

Ale

Il 05/02/21 17:04, Lyle Giese via mailop ha scritto:
I just looked at the dns entries for foddi.net. The A and  records 
for mx1.mail.foddi.net has a TTL of 120 seconds. For many mail 
providers that indicates a dynamic IP address.  It's been my 
experience that 12 hrs is minimum(some prefer 24 hrs) TTL's on these 
records.


Lyle Giese

LCR Computer Services, Inc.


On 2/5/21 2:23 AM, Ale via mailop wrote:

Hello,

sorry if i ask something that's has already asked like a zillion 
times before.


I've setup a new mail server a month ago with an IPv4 that was 
already on Microsoft blacklist. Plus, i did a few mistakes and i 
tried to send some emails not properly configured with my domain.


I've setup my server only for testing and personal usage. I'm using 
exim4 with debian and I've changed only a few things, so I've just a 
basic configuration now.


I contacted Microsoft and I've got my IP unblocked, but still I see 
that on few outlook/hotmail accounts my email go on junk folder. I 
can send properly on every other domain.


My question is: if my server is properly configured, and i don't send 
ANY spam mail to anyone, there is the possibility that in the future 
my domain will get a greater sending score and my emails go to the 
inbox folder?


I ask to you because i think that you have a lot of experience and 
maybe you have a clue about how Microsoft antispam system works. 
Moreover I'm using a test server and i could easily change IP and 
domain, but i would like to keep the one i have now if possible.


thanks

Ale


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Re: [mailop] Weird 'tempfail too many recipients' bug/incompatibility EXIM => Postfix?

[Simon Arlott via mailop]

On 2021-02-04 19:04, Graeme Fowler via mailop wrote:
On 4 Feb 2021, at 15:26, Benoît Panizzon via mailop  
wrote:
But I also think EXIM is screwing up the order of the received 
messages

in pipelining mode.


There is a bug introduced in Exim 4.94 when using pipelining and some 
recipients are deferred with 452 but there are non-deferred recipients 
after those: https://bugs.exim.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2693


Disabling pipelining in the SMTP transport avoids this issue.

--
Simon Arlott
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Marcel Becker via mailop]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 08:07 Michael Orlitzky via mailop 
wrote:

>
> Abuse reports for non-abuse also scale linearly.


No.


> I don't see ignoring spam to decrease expenses
>

I see you actually didn’t read Brandon’s mail.
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Andrew C Aitchison via mailop]

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, Camille - Clean Mailbox via mailop wrote:


Not an easy to determine what is a justified abuse report and what is not...


On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 4:38 AM Michael Orlitzky via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:


Pay more and more people to do it, until the number of unhandled abuse
reports at the end of the day is zero. It scales linearly.


So you would gladly pay thousands of people to deal with abuse reports
which are, well, not actually abuse reports. And a lot of them. I wouldn't.
For the sake of the sanity of those people alone.


I agree that this is a job that requires judgement
but that may not be good for the person's well-being.

I cannot comment on the long-term effects on an AI.

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Andrew C Aitchison via mailop]

Inspired by the two exchanges quoted below:

GMail (and presumably other ESPs wit web frontends and mail apps)
has a "report spam" button for human's to ...
report individual messages as spam, which I belive is fed back into
the spam-classifier.

Would it be useful to include a link in each email header, similar to
List-Unsubscribe: and relatives, but unique to each message sent,
so that recipients could give similar feedback to the sending service ?

Sure, it will be gamed, but I'd hope that was easier for an AI
to spot in volume than for it to classify spam/not-spam.

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, Hal Murray via mailop wrote:

Brandon Long said:
If you received say... a million ab...@gmail.com emails a day, how 
would you handle that?


How much would it help if there was a machine readable format for
spam reports?  What would you want in such a report?  Are comments
like "sent to a spamtrap" or "harvested from usenet" or "repurposed
from xxx" helpful?

How often do you need more than just a copy of of the spam?  For
example, if the spammer rotates his server address, it may have
moved between when I looked it up and when you look it up.


and

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021, Marcel Becker via mailop wrote:

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 4:38 AM Michael Orlitzky via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:


Pay more and more people to do it, until the number of unhandled abuse
reports at the end of the day is zero. It scales linearly.


So you would gladly pay thousands of people to deal with abuse reports
which are, well, not actually abuse reports. And a lot of them. I wouldn't.
For the sake of the sanity of those people alone.


--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk
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Re: [mailop] Microsoft antispam

[Lyle Giese via mailop]

I just looked at the dns entries for foddi.net. The A and  records 
for mx1.mail.foddi.net has a TTL of 120 seconds. For many mail providers 
that indicates a dynamic IP address.  It's been my experience that 12 
hrs is minimum(some prefer 24 hrs) TTL's on these records.


Lyle Giese

LCR Computer Services, Inc.


On 2/5/21 2:23 AM, Ale via mailop wrote:

Hello,

sorry if i ask something that's has already asked like a zillion times 
before.


I've setup a new mail server a month ago with an IPv4 that was already 
on Microsoft blacklist. Plus, i did a few mistakes and i tried to send 
some emails not properly configured with my domain.


I've setup my server only for testing and personal usage. I'm using 
exim4 with debian and I've changed only a few things, so I've just a 
basic configuration now.


I contacted Microsoft and I've got my IP unblocked, but still I see 
that on few outlook/hotmail accounts my email go on junk folder. I can 
send properly on every other domain.


My question is: if my server is properly configured, and i don't send 
ANY spam mail to anyone, there is the possibility that in the future 
my domain will get a greater sending score and my emails go to the 
inbox folder?


I ask to you because i think that you have a lot of experience and 
maybe you have a clue about how Microsoft antispam system works. 
Moreover I'm using a test server and i could easily change IP and 
domain, but i would like to keep the one i have now if possible.


thanks

Ale


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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Michael Orlitzky via mailop]

On Fri, 2021-02-05 at 07:26 -0800, Marcel Becker via mailop wrote:
> 
> So you would gladly pay thousands of people to deal with abuse
> reports
> which are, well, not actually abuse reports. And a lot of them. I
> wouldn't.
> For the sake of the sanity of those people alone.
> 

Abuse reports for non-abuse also scale linearly.

I don't see ignoring spam to decrease expenses are morally superior to
sending spam to increase revenue, but feel free to think that the
negative signs make you a better person.


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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Camille - Clean Mailbox via mailop]

Not an easy to determine what is a justified abuse report and what is not...

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 4:38 AM Michael Orlitzky via mailop <
> mailop@mailop.org> wrote:
>
>> Pay more and more people to do it, until the number of unhandled abuse
>> reports at the end of the day is zero. It scales linearly.
>>
> So you would gladly pay thousands of people to deal with abuse reports
> which are, well, not actually abuse reports. And a lot of them. I wouldn't.
> For the sake of the sanity of those people alone.
>
> - Marcel
>
>
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Marcel Becker via mailop]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 7:58 PM Brandon Long via mailop 
wrote:

>
> We can always do better.  When people start to complain, it probably means
> we're missing something new or have let the low level things grow too much.
> Thanks.
>

I really admire you. That you took that time to explain the actual problems
at scale -- something some people have trouble grasping, when they look at
their own hosted mail server on their linux box.

- Marcel
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Re: [mailop] [E] Re: Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Marcel Becker via mailop]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 4:38 AM Michael Orlitzky via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

>
> Pay more and more people to do it, until the number of unhandled abuse
> reports at the end of the day is zero. It scales linearly.
>

So you would gladly pay thousands of people to deal with abuse reports
which are, well, not actually abuse reports. And a lot of them. I wouldn't.
For the sake of the sanity of those people alone.

- Marcel
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[mailop] Reporting spam

[Hal Murray via mailop]

Brandon Long said:
> If you received say... a million ab...@gmail.com emails a day, how would you
> handle that? 

What fraction is actually spam?

What fraction is useful?

What happened to ARF?  Was it useful?  Does anybody use it?  (When I looked at 
it, many years ago, it didn't seem to fit what I was trying to report.)

How much would it help if there was a machine readable format for spam reports? 
 What would you want in such a report?  Are comments like "sent to a spamtrap" 
or "harvested from usenet" or "repurposed from xxx" helpful?

How often do you need more than just a copy of of the spam?  For example, if 
the spammer rotates his server address, it may have moved between when I looked 
it up and when you look it up.

Would it help to split spam reporting/processing/thinking/discussions into good 
and bad?  Good being marketers trying too hard (or pick your excuse) and bad 
being crooks: 419, phishing, pills, ... 



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [mailop] Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Michael Orlitzky via mailop]

On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 19:23 -0800, Brandon Long via mailop wrote:
> If you received say... a million ab...@gmail.com emails a day, how
> would you handle that?
> 

Pay more and more people to do it, until the number of unhandled abuse
reports at the end of the day is zero. It scales linearly. If that
turns out to be overly expensive, I'd probably think we're letting
people send too much spam, or that our business model is fundamentally
parasitic.


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Re: [mailop] Some Days I think that Gmail isn't even trying to stop outbound spam..

[Andrew C Aitchison via mailop]

On Thu, 4 Feb 2021, Luke via mailop wrote:


Preventing outbound spam on a large system is a far greater challenge than
stopping inbound spam. The technical challenges are similar, but the
logistical challenges of preventing outbound spam without pissing off
customers is *far* greater than the challenge of preventing inbound spam
without pissing off customers.


If you are sufficiently big, a significant percentage of spam
*from* your users is spam *to* your users.

Or do large operators have functionally different filters
when sending to internal and external recipients ?

I see a tragedy of the commons here.
If every operator filtered when sending there would be little need to
filter on receipt and stopping one flow at source means many flows
don't need stopping at the destination.

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk
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[mailop] Microsoft antispam

[Ale via mailop]

Hello,

sorry if i ask something that's has already asked like a zillion times 
before.


I've setup a new mail server a month ago with an IPv4 that was already 
on Microsoft blacklist. Plus, i did a few mistakes and i tried to send 
some emails not properly configured with my domain.


I've setup my server only for testing and personal usage. I'm using 
exim4 with debian and I've changed only a few things, so I've just a 
basic configuration now.


I contacted Microsoft and I've got my IP unblocked, but still I see that 
on few outlook/hotmail accounts my email go on junk folder. I can send 
properly on every other domain.


My question is: if my server is properly configured, and i don't send 
ANY spam mail to anyone, there is the possibility that in the future my 
domain will get a greater sending score and my emails go to the inbox 
folder?


I ask to you because i think that you have a lot of experience and maybe 
you have a clue about how Microsoft antispam system works. Moreover I'm 
using a test server and i could easily change IP and domain, but i would 
like to keep the one i have now if possible.


thanks

Ale


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