Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Andy Onofrei via mailop]

HI , 

I'm glad that my question has developed into such a big topic .. which is 
pretty interesting.

One update: Richard from SpamCop has contacted offlist and we worked it out.
I wanted to say a big thank you to Richard and also once again mailop works .

Regards

Andrei Onofrei
Dynamics 365 Email Deliverability Engineer
andrei.onof...@microsoft.com | +420 720 359 205
BBC Delta Building, Vyskočilova 1561/4a, 140 00 Prague, The Czech Republic




-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of mailop-requ...@mailop.org
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 4:05 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: mailop Digest, Vol 133, Issue 47

Send mailop mailing list submissions to
mailop@mailop.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailopdata=02%7C01%7Candrei.onofrei%40microsoft.com%7C5435698bc67843a37ae408d64e30a5a7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636782368182070817sdata=TiD1TvdlpjO5mKkJQdb0aOUSOoFHp3Syr0IfOSAaYoo%3Dreserved=0
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
mailop-requ...@mailop.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
mailop-ow...@mailop.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: 
Contents of mailop digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Spamcop IP blacklisted (Mathieu Bourdin)
   2. Re: Spamcop IP blacklisted (Laura Atkins)


--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 14:16:48 +
From: Mathieu Bourdin 
To: Benjamin BILLON , Laura Atkins
, Michael Wise 
Cc: mailop 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted
Message-ID: <60ac015c5775455b85414ae7c837b...@np6.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

>My problem is more when it doesn't work, while it should.

That’s not a problem, that’s our job description.

More seriously, as has been said before, the problem starts when the minimum 
set of rules to abide to isn’t enough to get the reputation to grow 
sufficiently.
We have no issue with rules getting more strict, we just need to know if it’s 
“new rules” or if it’s “old rules gone haywire”

Mathieu Bourdin


De : mailop  De la part de Benjamin BILLON Envoyé : 
lundi 19 novembre 2018 12:13 À : Laura Atkins ; 
Michael Wise  Cc : mailop  Objet 
: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

> Does this mean I can’t declare the Era of IP Reputation is over?
No you can't, it has been explicitly said it's not over last month, in some 
meeting, by some major consumer provider.

This isn't a problem from my point of view, IPs or domains, the idea is to have 
an overall good reputation. Behave, and it'll work.

My problem is more when it doesn't work, while it should.

--
Benjamin

From: mailop mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> On 
Behalf Of Laura Atkins
Sent: lundi 19 novembre 2018 11:25
To: Michael Wise mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>>
Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted


On 16 Nov 2018, at 22:23, Michael Wise via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

Per email, no, bad test.
But if they keep not opening it, and others are reporting it as spam (or other 
things), and especially if there’s no clear unsubscribe link … Bad Things will 
happen to the reputation.
Automatically in some places.

Yup. That’s one of those things I find hard to explain conceptually. Signals 
can modify each other. Signal A is neutral to slightly negative, Signal B is 
slightly negative, Signal C is neutral. But Signal A + Signal B is A*B not A+B. 
In the presence of Signal A then Signal C because extremely negative. Signal A, 
B and C all being present is an immediate block.

 And I agree, the machine should notice things like, this sender has been 
sending traffic to this recipient, and occasionally they open it, and 
occasionally they click a link, and they don’t report it as spam… that should 
build the reputation for that sender/recipient.

It works at some places. At other places their engine needs a bit of a tweak.

And hopefully, if wouldn’t matter which IP they were sending from, as long as 
the domain validated.

There are at least two major consumer providers where this is the case. There’s 
a third that puts more emphasis on IP reputation than the others.

(Some bits of this email contain forward-dreaming statements and wishes…)

Does this mean I can’t declare the Era of IP Reputation is over? There has been 
a pretty significant divergence in filters over the last few years and it’s 
making it challenging for folks to have one deliverability strategy that works 
for all ISPs.

(It’s just gone10am here and I already have 3 different “thought piece” blog 
posts working)

laura

--
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com<mai

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Laura Atkins]

> On 19 Nov 2018, at 14:16, Mathieu Bourdin  wrote:
> 
> >My problem is more when it doesn't work, while it should.
>  
> That’s not a problem, that’s our job description.
>  
> More seriously, as has been said before, the problem starts when the minimum 
> set of rules to abide to isn’t enough to get the reputation to grow 
> sufficiently.
> We have no issue with rules getting more strict, we just need to know if it’s 
> “new rules” or if it’s “old rules gone haywire”

Given how long they’ve been in place and some of the more public statements 
made by MS employees, I think treating this as “new rules” means a much faster 
path to the inbox. 

laura 


-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Mathieu Bourdin]

>My problem is more when it doesn't work, while it should.

That’s not a problem, that’s our job description.

More seriously, as has been said before, the problem starts when the minimum 
set of rules to abide to isn’t enough to get the reputation to grow 
sufficiently.
We have no issue with rules getting more strict, we just need to know if it’s 
“new rules” or if it’s “old rules gone haywire”

Mathieu Bourdin


De : mailop  De la part de Benjamin BILLON
Envoyé : lundi 19 novembre 2018 12:13
À : Laura Atkins ; Michael Wise 

Cc : mailop 
Objet : Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

> Does this mean I can’t declare the Era of IP Reputation is over?
No you can't, it has been explicitly said it's not over last month, in some 
meeting, by some major consumer provider.

This isn't a problem from my point of view, IPs or domains, the idea is to have 
an overall good reputation. Behave, and it'll work.

My problem is more when it doesn't work, while it should.

--
Benjamin

From: mailop mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> On 
Behalf Of Laura Atkins
Sent: lundi 19 novembre 2018 11:25
To: Michael Wise mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>>
Cc: mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted


On 16 Nov 2018, at 22:23, Michael Wise via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

Per email, no, bad test.
But if they keep not opening it, and others are reporting it as spam (or other 
things), and especially if there’s no clear unsubscribe link …
Bad Things will happen to the reputation.
Automatically in some places.

Yup. That’s one of those things I find hard to explain conceptually. Signals 
can modify each other. Signal A is neutral to slightly negative, Signal B is 
slightly negative, Signal C is neutral. But Signal A + Signal B is A*B not A+B. 
In the presence of Signal A then Signal C because extremely negative. Signal A, 
B and C all being present is an immediate block.

 And I agree, the machine should notice things like, this sender has been 
sending traffic to this recipient, and occasionally they open it, and 
occasionally they click a link, and they don’t report it as spam… that should 
build the reputation for that sender/recipient.

It works at some places. At other places their engine needs a bit of a tweak.

And hopefully, if wouldn’t matter which IP they were sending from, as long as 
the domain validated.

There are at least two major consumer providers where this is the case. There’s 
a third that puts more emphasis on IP reputation than the others.

(Some bits of this email contain forward-dreaming statements and wishes…)

Does this mean I can’t declare the Era of IP Reputation is over? There has been 
a pretty significant divergence in filters over the last few years and it’s 
making it challenging for folks to have one deliverability strategy that works 
for all ISPs.

(It’s just gone10am here and I already have 3 different “thought piece” blog 
posts working)

laura

--
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com<mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>
(650) 437-0741

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog






___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Benjamin BILLON]

> Does this mean I can’t declare the Era of IP Reputation is over?
No you can't, it has been explicitly said it's not over last month, in some 
meeting, by some major consumer provider.

This isn't a problem from my point of view, IPs or domains, the idea is to have 
an overall good reputation. Behave, and it'll work.

My problem is more when it doesn't work, while it should.

--
Benjamin

From: mailop  On Behalf Of Laura Atkins
Sent: lundi 19 novembre 2018 11:25
To: Michael Wise 
Cc: mailop 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted


On 16 Nov 2018, at 22:23, Michael Wise via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

Per email, no, bad test.
But if they keep not opening it, and others are reporting it as spam (or other 
things), and especially if there’s no clear unsubscribe link …
Bad Things will happen to the reputation.
Automatically in some places.

Yup. That’s one of those things I find hard to explain conceptually. Signals 
can modify each other. Signal A is neutral to slightly negative, Signal B is 
slightly negative, Signal C is neutral. But Signal A + Signal B is A*B not A+B. 
In the presence of Signal A then Signal C because extremely negative. Signal A, 
B and C all being present is an immediate block.


 And I agree, the machine should notice things like, this sender has been 
sending traffic to this recipient, and occasionally they open it, and 
occasionally they click a link, and they don’t report it as spam… that should 
build the reputation for that sender/recipient.

It works at some places. At other places their engine needs a bit of a tweak.


And hopefully, if wouldn’t matter which IP they were sending from, as long as 
the domain validated.

There are at least two major consumer providers where this is the case. There’s 
a third that puts more emphasis on IP reputation than the others.


(Some bits of this email contain forward-dreaming statements and wishes…)

Does this mean I can’t declare the Era of IP Reputation is over? There has been 
a pretty significant divergence in filters over the last few years and it’s 
making it challenging for folks to have one deliverability strategy that works 
for all ISPs.

(It’s just gone10am here and I already have 3 different “thought piece” blog 
posts working)

laura

--
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com<mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>
(650) 437-0741

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog






___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Laura Atkins]

> On 16 Nov 2018, at 22:23, Michael Wise via mailop  wrote:
> 
> Per email, no, bad test.
> But if they keep not opening it, and others are reporting it as spam (or 
> other things), and especially if there’s no clear unsubscribe link …
> Bad Things will happen to the reputation.
> Automatically in some places.

Yup. That’s one of those things I find hard to explain conceptually. Signals 
can modify each other. Signal A is neutral to slightly negative, Signal B is 
slightly negative, Signal C is neutral. But Signal A + Signal B is A*B not A+B. 
In the presence of Signal A then Signal C because extremely negative. Signal A, 
B and C all being present is an immediate block. 

>  And I agree, the machine should notice things like, this sender has been 
> sending traffic to this recipient, and occasionally they open it, and 
> occasionally they click a link, and they don’t report it as spam… that should 
> build the reputation for that sender/recipient.

It works at some places. At other places their engine needs a bit of a tweak. 

> And hopefully, if wouldn’t matter which IP they were sending from, as long as 
> the domain validated.

There are at least two major consumer providers where this is the case. There’s 
a third that puts more emphasis on IP reputation than the others.  

> (Some bits of this email contain forward-dreaming statements and wishes…)

Does this mean I can’t declare the Era of IP Reputation is over? There has been 
a pretty significant divergence in filters over the last few years and it’s 
making it challenging for folks to have one deliverability strategy that works 
for all ISPs. 

(It’s just gone10am here and I already have 3 different “thought piece” blog 
posts working) 

laura

-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Per email, no, bad test.
But if they keep not opening it, and others are reporting it as spam (or other 
things), and especially if there’s no clear unsubscribe link …
Bad Things will happen to the reputation.
Automatically in some places.

And I agree, the machine should notice things like, this sender has been 
sending traffic to this recipient, and occasionally they open it, and 
occasionally they click a link, and they don’t report it as spam… that should 
build the reputation for that sender/recipient.

And hopefully, if wouldn’t matter which IP they were sending from, as long as 
the domain validated.

(Some bits of this email contain forward-dreaming statements and wishes…)

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: Benjamin BILLON 
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:25 PM
To: Michael Wise ; Michael Rathbun 
; mailop 
Subject: RE: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted


> if the email isn't opened, or there is no show of interest over the course of 
> the past 3 - 6 months ... It's mailing malpractice

Hi Michael, I believe you're working in a different department than the one in 
charge of Outlook.com filtering, so I don't make a direct link between your 
statement and how Outlook.com filters are working.

BUT. I couldn't agree* with a filtering system that assumes that this or that 
email is spam because it's unread, and I would consider that decreasing the 
overall reputation of the sender's domain/IP based on this sole criteria is 
malpractice.
There's definitely that part where ISPs are receiving and hosting a lot of 
emails that are unwanted and unread. That's literally money for nothing, and 
this is a real problem for all receivers.
But there are also those emails that we receive and never read, but that we 
want to keep anyway. Bank statements. Order confirmation. That newsletter about 
woodworking tips. Or that one about dreamy holidays that I'd check for the next 
vacation, or the next one, or the next one ...
Messages delivered (or automatically moved at a later time) in junk folder will 
be automatically deleted after X days, so those would be lost.

I don't think there's today a way to spot the "interest" an user has for an 
email other than by checking if he opened it or not; but not opening an email 
doesn't mean we're not interested in it.
So impacting the reputation solely based on this criteria seems clumsy, unless 
maybe if done really really well (and that unfortunately usually isn't the 
case).

In the meantime, it doesn't mean that bulk marketing senders shouldn't exclude 
inactives. They should, they must do it. Their job is to create and maintain a 
relationship between their brand and their public. If the public isn't reacting 
anymore, then it's time to say goodbye.

* I'm well aware that my opinion doesn't matter much in the end, and yet I'm 
here on Friday evening

~epilogue~
In a much more practical approach, there's also the other way: if people open, 
they probably are interested. Unless they were just browsing through their 
emails and the next one got automatically "opened" before being quickly 
deleted. I guess the TTL after opening is another criteria. Anyway, that would 
mean that if the recipients of a bulk sending open, then it should increase the 
reputation of this IP and/or domain (excuse my innocence in this, I'm genuinely 
asking if there's a reason to think otherwise).
So that's a nice principle, and Gmail actually enforces it pretty well; 
unfortunately not all other receivers do, and that makes things a lot more 
difficult: we (I'm an ESP) spend a considerable amount of time educating our 
clients on best practices and compliance. We tell them what to do, they don't 
believe us, they crash, we tell them how to start to fix it, they try, it 
works, they learned something. But when we tell them to follow the best 
practices (target only the active ones to make it work) and it doesn't work any 
better, they start questioning the whole best practices again.

Cheers to all, and have a nice week-end!

--
Benjamin

From: mailop mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> On 
Behalf Of Michael Wise via mailop
Sent: vendredi 16 novembre 2018 20:27
To: Michael Rathbun mailto:m...@honet.com>>; 
mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted




And if the email isn't opened, or there is no show of interest over the course 
of the past 3 - 6 months ...

It's mailing malpractice, and will *impact* your IP / domain reputation.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdo

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Stuff like that, yes …
But stuff like just the subject, from the same sender … could run afoul of 
looking too much like spam for one reason or another.

I get SMSs telling me that various transactions have cleared my account.
If those were in email, I’d get … annoyed.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?

From: Kurt Andersen (b) 
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 1:35 PM
To: bbil...@splio.com
Cc: Michael Wise ; m...@honet.com; mailop 

Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:33 PM Benjamin BILLON 
mailto:bbil...@splio.com>> wrote:

> if the email isn't opened, or there is no show of interest over the course of 
> the past 3 - 6 months ... It's mailing malpractice
. . .
But there are also those emails that we receive and never read, but that we 
want to keep anyway. Bank statements. Order confirmation. That newsletter about 
woodworking tips.

Or ones where the subject line (and possibly initial text snippet) provides all 
the necessary information to the recipient.

--Kurt
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Grant Taylor via mailop]

On 11/16/2018 12:26 PM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
And if the email isn't opened, or there is no show of interest over the 
course of the past 3 - 6 months ...


Are you advocating for some sort of per recipient tracking to be used as 
a signal to indicate if the email was opened (disposed)?  Be it 
something like a per recipient image or MDN setting?


;-)


It's mailing malpractice, and will **impact** your IP / domain reputation.


I agree, that it's good to have some sort of periodic confirmation / 
indication / signal that subscribers do want to continue receiving the 
messages.


I feel like a double opt in and an annual confirmation to remain 
subscribed and a default unsubscribe should cover it for most mailing 
lists.  Granted, the confirmation can't be a single click on a link as 
some email hygiene systems GET links and can falsely trigger the the 
confirmation.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Kurt Andersen (b)]

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:33 PM Benjamin BILLON  wrote:

> > if the email isn't opened, or there is no show of interest over the
> course of the past 3 - 6 months ... It's mailing malpractice
>
> . . .
>
> But there are also those emails that we receive and never read, but that
> we want to keep anyway. Bank statements. Order confirmation. That
> newsletter about woodworking tips.
>

Or ones where the subject line (and possibly initial text snippet) provides
all the necessary information to the recipient.

--Kurt
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Jay Hennigan]

On 11/16/18 12:25 PM, Benjamin BILLON wrote:

But there are also those emails that we receive and never read, but that 
we want to keep anyway. Bank statements. Order confirmation. That 
newsletter about woodworking tips. Or that one about dreamy holidays 
that I'd check for the next vacation, or the next one, or the next one ...


There are also many of us who open and read email but deliberately avoid 
opening embedded images.


--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Benjamin BILLON]

> if the email isn't opened, or there is no show of interest over the course of 
> the past 3 - 6 months ... It's mailing malpractice

Hi Michael, I believe you're working in a different department than the one in 
charge of Outlook.com filtering, so I don't make a direct link between your 
statement and how Outlook.com filters are working.

BUT. I couldn't agree* with a filtering system that assumes that this or that 
email is spam because it's unread, and I would consider that decreasing the 
overall reputation of the sender's domain/IP based on this sole criteria is 
malpractice.
There's definitely that part where ISPs are receiving and hosting a lot of 
emails that are unwanted and unread. That's literally money for nothing, and 
this is a real problem for all receivers.
But there are also those emails that we receive and never read, but that we 
want to keep anyway. Bank statements. Order confirmation. That newsletter about 
woodworking tips. Or that one about dreamy holidays that I'd check for the next 
vacation, or the next one, or the next one ...
Messages delivered (or automatically moved at a later time) in junk folder will 
be automatically deleted after X days, so those would be lost.

I don't think there's today a way to spot the "interest" an user has for an 
email other than by checking if he opened it or not; but not opening an email 
doesn't mean we're not interested in it.
So impacting the reputation solely based on this criteria seems clumsy, unless 
maybe if done really really well (and that unfortunately usually isn't the 
case).

In the meantime, it doesn't mean that bulk marketing senders shouldn't exclude 
inactives. They should, they must do it. Their job is to create and maintain a 
relationship between their brand and their public. If the public isn't reacting 
anymore, then it's time to say goodbye.

* I'm well aware that my opinion doesn't matter much in the end, and yet I'm 
here on Friday evening

~epilogue~
In a much more practical approach, there's also the other way: if people open, 
they probably are interested. Unless they were just browsing through their 
emails and the next one got automatically "opened" before being quickly 
deleted. I guess the TTL after opening is another criteria. Anyway, that would 
mean that if the recipients of a bulk sending open, then it should increase the 
reputation of this IP and/or domain (excuse my innocence in this, I'm genuinely 
asking if there's a reason to think otherwise).
So that's a nice principle, and Gmail actually enforces it pretty well; 
unfortunately not all other receivers do, and that makes things a lot more 
difficult: we (I'm an ESP) spend a considerable amount of time educating our 
clients on best practices and compliance. We tell them what to do, they don't 
believe us, they crash, we tell them how to start to fix it, they try, it 
works, they learned something. But when we tell them to follow the best 
practices (target only the active ones to make it work) and it doesn't work any 
better, they start questioning the whole best practices again.

Cheers to all, and have a nice week-end!

--
Benjamin

From: mailop  On Behalf Of Michael Wise via mailop
Sent: vendredi 16 novembre 2018 20:27
To: Michael Rathbun ; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted




And if the email isn't opened, or there is no show of interest over the course 
of the past 3 - 6 months ...

It's mailing malpractice, and will *impact* your IP / domain reputation.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> On 
Behalf Of Michael Rathbun
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 6:52 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted



On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:04:03 +, Laura Atkins 
mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>>

wrote:



>Last time I talked to a SC employee, which admittedly was more than a few 
>years ago, about their trap conditioning they were using a 2+ year cycle of 
>actively rejecting mail to trap domains. If your users can’t figure out how to 
>stop mailing domains that never accept a single email over the course of 2 
>years, I don’t think that’s really a trap maintainer problem.

>

>I’ve taken the position, and tell my clients this, that EVERY SINGLE

>EMAIL that bounces is a potential spamtrap.This has been reinforced by

>the commercial services selling access to spamtrap data - where the

>spamtrap data is simply domains maintained by the commercial service.

>If your customers are bouncing mails then your response should be “they

>hit a spamtrap” not some vague “oh, well.”



In addition to internal spamtraps, they have external one

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Michael Wise via mailop]

And if the email isn't opened, or there is no show of interest over the course 
of the past 3 - 6 months ...

It's mailing malpractice, and will *impact* your IP / domain reputation.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Michael Rathbun
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 6:52 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted



On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:04:03 +, Laura Atkins 
mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>>

wrote:



>Last time I talked to a SC employee, which admittedly was more than a few 
>years ago, about their trap conditioning they were using a 2+ year cycle of 
>actively rejecting mail to trap domains. If your users can’t figure out how to 
>stop mailing domains that never accept a single email over the course of 2 
>years, I don’t think that’s really a trap maintainer problem.

>

>I’ve taken the position, and tell my clients this, that EVERY SINGLE

>EMAIL that bounces is a potential spamtrap.This has been reinforced by

>the commercial services selling access to spamtrap data - where the

>spamtrap data is simply domains maintained by the commercial service.

>If your customers are bouncing mails then your response should be “they

>hit a spamtrap” not some vague “oh, well.”



In addition to internal spamtraps, they have external ones, like "Nadine"

(https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.honet.com%2FNadinedata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C0ea165c0998d482afac408d64bd43e28%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636779772291170192sdata=RxNincGW8vaGjbFbgJb7nhTGWN%2BFVTK5U3EWh9GbVZQ%3Dreserved=0).
  Email to her will be forwarded to Spamcop within seconds.  Happens a couple 
dozen times per day.



(If any other blacklist ops want a feed, drop me a note).



mdr

--

 "There are no laws here, only agreements."

-- Masahiko





___

mailop mailing list

mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailopdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C0ea165c0998d482afac408d64bd43e28%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636779772291170192sdata=els3brp7MPIuzufeJHcPT5BtGa%2BosN3zDWSOyoP7AGc%3Dreserved=0
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Jay Hennigan]

On 11/16/18 2:33 AM, Marco Franceschetti via mailop wrote:
Our hypothesis is that Spamcop has activated a few obsolete domains 
(typos, repurposed domains) as traps from one day to the other, or 
radically and suddenly changed the threshold - therefore, a few 
brand/senders with not brilliant list hygiene practices started to 
trigger IP blocks.


That's a feature, not a bug.

--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Michael Rathbun]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:04:03 +, Laura Atkins 
wrote:

>Last time I talked to a SC employee, which admittedly was more than a few 
>years ago, about their trap conditioning they were using a 2+ year cycle of 
>actively rejecting mail to trap domains. If your users can’t figure out how to 
>stop mailing domains that never accept a single email over the course of 2 
>years, I don’t think that’s really a trap maintainer problem.
>
>I’ve taken the position, and tell my clients this, that EVERY SINGLE EMAIL 
>that bounces is a potential spamtrap.This has been reinforced by the 
>commercial services selling access to spamtrap data - where the spamtrap data 
>is simply domains maintained by the commercial service. If your customers are 
>bouncing mails then your response should be “they hit a spamtrap” not some 
>vague “oh, well.” 

In addition to internal spamtraps, they have external ones, like "Nadine"
(http://www.honet.com/Nadine).  Email to her will be forwarded to Spamcop
within seconds.  Happens a couple dozen times per day.

(If any other blacklist ops want a feed, drop me a note).

mdr
-- 
 "There are no laws here, only agreements."  
-- Masahiko


___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Marco Franceschetti via mailop]

Thanks for your considerations Laura, I totally agree on your points. Anyway, 
there has been no vague “oh well” here.
Also, there is no sending emails to rejected domains for years, as we have like 
most ESPs a well trained bounce management system.

I don’t think it’s a spamtrap mantainer problem at all; in the fact we did not 
contact spamcop yet but focused on explaining to the customers first.
This is because we are aware of the function and value of spamtrap data. And as 
I said, results are coming.
I mainly wanted to share the experience that yes, something has changed at 
Spamcop in the last days.

Regards



From: Laura Atkins 
Sent: venerdì 16 novembre 2018 12:04
To: Marco Franceschetti 
Cc: feder...@aruba.it; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted




On 16 Nov 2018, at 10:33, Marco Franceschetti via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

Hi

Same situation here at Contactlab (Italy).
Our hypothesis is that Spamcop has activated a few obsolete domains (typos, 
repurposed domains) as traps from one day to the other, or radically and 
suddenly changed the threshold - therefore, a few brand/senders with not 
brilliant list hygiene practices started to trigger IP blocks. Of course, this 
is a big issue for shared IP pools.

We have contacted some of these brands and involved them in a “crash course” on 
spam traps and segmentation.
I see some results, which is great because improves the overall quality of the 
traffic, but requires individual contact and relevant effort.
I will contact SpamCop as well because maybe they did’nt foresee the mass 
impact of this change.

Having gone through this with Spamcop in the past and being on relatively good 
terms with the people who work there, I think you’ll find that they possibly 
did forsee the impact of the change, but decided that the problems experienced 
by companies continuing to send mail to users who never opted in and/or who 
have been sending to domains rejecting emails for years were not of much 
concern to them.

Last time I talked to a SC employee, which admittedly was more than a few years 
ago, about their trap conditioning they were using a 2+ year cycle of actively 
rejecting mail to trap domains. If your users can’t figure out how to stop 
mailing domains that never accept a single email over the course of 2 years, I 
don’t think that’s really a trap maintainer problem.

I’ve taken the position, and tell my clients this, that EVERY SINGLE EMAIL that 
bounces is a potential spamtrap.This has been reinforced by the commercial 
services selling access to spamtrap data - where the spamtrap data is simply 
domains maintained by the commercial service. If your customers are bouncing 
mails then your response should be “they hit a spamtrap” not some vague “oh, 
well.”

laura

--
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com<mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>
(650) 437-0741

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog






___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Laura Atkins]

> On 16 Nov 2018, at 10:33, Marco Franceschetti via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi
>  
> Same situation here at Contactlab (Italy).
> Our hypothesis is that Spamcop has activated a few obsolete domains (typos, 
> repurposed domains) as traps from one day to the other, or radically and 
> suddenly changed the threshold - therefore, a few brand/senders with not 
> brilliant list hygiene practices started to trigger IP blocks. Of course, 
> this is a big issue for shared IP pools.
>  
> We have contacted some of these brands and involved them in a “crash course” 
> on spam traps and segmentation.
> I see some results, which is great because improves the overall quality of 
> the traffic, but requires individual contact and relevant effort.
> I will contact SpamCop as well because maybe they did’nt foresee the mass 
> impact of this change.

Having gone through this with Spamcop in the past and being on relatively good 
terms with the people who work there, I think you’ll find that they possibly 
did forsee the impact of the change, but decided that the problems experienced 
by companies continuing to send mail to users who never opted in and/or who 
have been sending to domains rejecting emails for years were not of much 
concern to them. 

Last time I talked to a SC employee, which admittedly was more than a few years 
ago, about their trap conditioning they were using a 2+ year cycle of actively 
rejecting mail to trap domains. If your users can’t figure out how to stop 
mailing domains that never accept a single email over the course of 2 years, I 
don’t think that’s really a trap maintainer problem.

I’ve taken the position, and tell my clients this, that EVERY SINGLE EMAIL that 
bounces is a potential spamtrap.This has been reinforced by the commercial 
services selling access to spamtrap data - where the spamtrap data is simply 
domains maintained by the commercial service. If your customers are bouncing 
mails then your response should be “they hit a spamtrap” not some vague “oh, 
well.” 

laura 

-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Marco Franceschetti via mailop]

Hi

Same situation here at Contactlab (Italy).
Our hypothesis is that Spamcop has activated a few obsolete domains (typos, 
repurposed domains) as traps from one day to the other, or radically and 
suddenly changed the threshold - therefore, a few brand/senders with not 
brilliant list hygiene practices started to trigger IP blocks. Of course, this 
is a big issue for shared IP pools.

We have contacted some of these brands and involved them in a “crash course” on 
spam traps and segmentation.
I see some results, which is great because improves the overall quality of the 
traffic, but requires individual contact and relevant effort.
I will contact SpamCop as well because maybe they did’nt foresee the mass 
impact of this change.

Regards
Marco


Marco Franceschetti
Head of Deliverability | ContactLab
M. +39 331 1717 978 | T. +39 0228311887
marco.francesche...@contactlab.com<mailto:marco.francesche...@contactlab.com>

Via Natale Battaglia, 12 | Milano
contactlab.com/it<http://www.contactlab.com/it>



From: mailop  On Behalf Of Federico Bartolucci
Sent: venerdì 16 novembre 2018 11:08
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

Hi,

I'm not from Spamcop but I manage a large email system in Italy, recently we 
often find out ips going into Spamcop for uncertain reasons, can I ask if you 
checked for compromised accounts used to send out emails?

Regards

federico bartolucci
mail systems administrator
Aruba.it
Il 16 novembre 2018 10:31:24 CET, Laura Atkins 
mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>> ha scritto:
Send mail to deput...@spamcop.net<mailto:deput...@spamcop.net>. They’re 
generally pretty helpful.

You can also sign up for their report cards, which can sometimes be useful in 
identifying problems. 
https://wordtothewise.com/2013/11/getting-spamcop-summary-reports/ You’re an 
ISP so you may even get better reports than us mere plebs.

If this is a new issue, you may want to read back a few threads on mailop - it 
seems that microsoft is currently experiencing an infestation of the i have 
your password and you watch porn bitcoin spam. That may have generated enough 
complaints / trap hits (and those emails are going to traps) to cause the 
issue. I’m pretty sure they’re going to tell you to clean your outbound stream 
before they’ll consider delisting you.

laura


On 16 Nov 2018, at 08:16, Andy Onofrei via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

Hi guys,

Can someone from SpamCop reach out to me offlist ? Or if anyone has a contact 
for SpamCop or how it’s the best way to dispute or at least to find out more 
details about a certain IP block ?

Thank you

Andrei Onofrei
Dynamics 365 Email Deliverability Engineer
andrei.onof...@microsoft.com<mailto:andrei.onof...@microsoft.com> | +420 720 
359 205
BBC Delta Building, Vyskočilova 1561/4a, 140 00 Prague, The Czech Republic


___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

--
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com<mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>
(650) 437-0741

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog






___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Federico Bartolucci]

Hi,

I'm not from Spamcop but I manage a large email system in Italy, recently we 
often find out ips going into Spamcop for uncertain reasons, can I ask if you 
checked for compromised accounts used to send out emails?

Regards

federico bartolucci
mail systems administrator
Aruba.it

Il 16 novembre 2018 10:31:24 CET, Laura Atkins  ha 
scritto:
>Send mail to deput...@spamcop.net .
>They’re generally pretty helpful. 
>
>You can also sign up for their report cards, which can sometimes be
>useful in identifying problems.
>https://wordtothewise.com/2013/11/getting-spamcop-summary-reports/
>
>You’re an ISP so you may even get better reports than us mere plebs. 
>
>If this is a new issue, you may want to read back a few threads on
>mailop - it seems that microsoft is currently experiencing an
>infestation of the i have your password and you watch porn bitcoin
>spam. That may have generated enough complaints / trap hits (and those
>emails are going to traps) to cause the issue. I’m pretty sure they’re
>going to tell you to clean your outbound stream before they’ll consider
>delisting you. 
>
>laura 
>
>
>> On 16 Nov 2018, at 08:16, Andy Onofrei via mailop 
>wrote:
>> 
>> Hi guys, 
>>  
>> Can someone from SpamCop reach out to me offlist ? Or if anyone has a
>contact for SpamCop or how it’s the best way to dispute or at least to
>find out more details about a certain IP block ?
>>  
>> Thank you
>>  
>> Andrei Onofrei
>> Dynamics 365 Email Deliverability Engineer
>> andrei.onof...@microsoft.com  |
>+420 720 359 205
>> BBC Delta Building, Vyskočilova 1561/4a, 140 00 Prague, The Czech
>Republic
>> 
>>  
>> ___
>> mailop mailing list
>> mailop@mailop.org 
>> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
>
>-- 
>Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 
>
>Laura Atkins
>Word to the Wise
>la...@wordtothewise.com
>(650) 437-0741 
>
>Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

Re: [mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Laura Atkins]

Send mail to deput...@spamcop.net . They’re 
generally pretty helpful. 

You can also sign up for their report cards, which can sometimes be useful in 
identifying problems. 
https://wordtothewise.com/2013/11/getting-spamcop-summary-reports/ 
 You’re an 
ISP so you may even get better reports than us mere plebs. 

If this is a new issue, you may want to read back a few threads on mailop - it 
seems that microsoft is currently experiencing an infestation of the i have 
your password and you watch porn bitcoin spam. That may have generated enough 
complaints / trap hits (and those emails are going to traps) to cause the 
issue. I’m pretty sure they’re going to tell you to clean your outbound stream 
before they’ll consider delisting you. 

laura 


> On 16 Nov 2018, at 08:16, Andy Onofrei via mailop  wrote:
> 
> Hi guys, 
>  
> Can someone from SpamCop reach out to me offlist ? Or if anyone has a contact 
> for SpamCop or how it’s the best way to dispute or at least to find out more 
> details about a certain IP block ?
>  
> Thank you
>  
> Andrei Onofrei
> Dynamics 365 Email Deliverability Engineer
> andrei.onof...@microsoft.com  | +420 720 
> 359 205
> BBC Delta Building, Vyskočilova 1561/4a, 140 00 Prague, The Czech Republic
> 
>  
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org 
> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop 
> 
-- 
Having an Email Crisis?  We can help! 800 823-9674 

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com
(650) 437-0741  

Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog 







___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

[mailop] Spamcop IP blacklisted

[Andy Onofrei via mailop]

Hi guys,

Can someone from SpamCop reach out to me offlist ? Or if anyone has a contact 
for SpamCop or how it's the best way to dispute or at least to find out more 
details about a certain IP block ?

Thank you

Andrei Onofrei
Dynamics 365 Email Deliverability Engineer
andrei.onof...@microsoft.com | +420 720 
359 205
BBC Delta Building, Vyskočilova 1561/4a, 140 00 Prague, The Czech Republic
[cid:image001.jpg@01CE6679.2CA88280]

___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop