Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Larry M. Smith via mailop]

On 10/27/2021 12:25 PM, Mickey Chandler via mailop wrote:
If you want to get THAT pedantic about it, so is sending an email. After 
all, I can usually get info on the person's anti-spam solution, what MUA 
(other than the web interface) they used, and often the IP address they 
used to send the message via headers.


.. Or just the initial signup, the COI confirmation pass, or any other 
time that the user clicked on one of the URLs.

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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Larry M. Smith via mailop]

On 10/27/2021 11:45 AM, Michael Peddemors via mailop wrote:
Not to be a 'nitpicker', but isn't visiting a URL providing a lot more 
information that just the email address opt-out preferences ;)




If done by the MUA passing the request to the user's browser, most 
likely...  Or at least it _could_ do such things.  If done by a webmail 
provider as an API call from the user clicking a button.  No, not 
really, as long as it doesn't redirect the user to the page.  But then 
again, I have no idea how these things are done in practice.


Course, even worse are those companies that have an opt-out link that 
then asks for your email address ;) Doh!


Yes, and such things years ago were a great place to feed spamtraps. 
Everybody leaks, and having a list of unsubs lying around will often 
eventually be imported into the recipients list -- sometimes inadvertently.

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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Mickey Chandler via mailop]

If you want to get THAT pedantic about it, so is sending an email. After
all, I can usually get info on the person's anti-spam solution, what MUA
(other than the web interface) they used, and often the IP address they
used to send the message via headers.

I suppose that you COULD make a case that some bot-protection script that
REQUIRED something like a User-Agent header would run afoul of the "no
information other" requirement, but we all know that's not what the law is
talking about. Additionally, I'd point out that it talks about requiring
certain information. If you give up other data yourself (such as through
your default browser settings), I'm not seeing as how that's a violation,
even if that data gets collected.

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 11:56 AM Michael Peddemors via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

> Not to be a 'nitpicker', but isn't visiting a URL providing a lot more
> information that just the email address opt-out preferences ;)
>
> Course, even worse are those companies that have an opt-out link that
> then asks for your email address ;) Doh!
>
> On 2021-10-27 9:31 a.m., Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop wrote:
> > Here is what CAN-SPAM requires, following the updated rules issued by
> the FTC in May of 2008; this is the "single step" requirement:
> >
> > § 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on
> recipients who wish to opt out.
> >
> > Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require
> that any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the
> recipient's electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any
> other steps except sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a
> single Internet Web page, in order to:
> >
> > (a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based
> mechanism, required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to
> receive future commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or
> >
> > (b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B)
> and (a)(4).
> >
> > From: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/part-316
> >
> > Anne
> > ---
> >
> > Anne P. Mitchell,
> > Attorney at Law
> > CEO Get to the Inbox by SuretyMail
> > Author: Section 6 of the Federal Email Marketing Law (CAN-SPAM)
> > Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook
> > Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> > Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> > Former Counsel: MAPS Anti-Spam Blacklist
> >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Catch the Magic of Linux..."
> 
> Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
> Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
> A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
> "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.
> 
> 604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada
>
> This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed.
> Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
> those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company.
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Chris Truitt via mailop]

Larry,

Thanks for pointing this out.
I manage Deliverability for WhatCounts and I'm in contact with the appropriate 
parties to get this sorted out and fixed ASAP.

Thank you,
Chris Truitt


From: mailop  on behalf of Larry M. Smith via mailop 

Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2021 4:08 PM
To: mailop 
Subject: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

Ya know, I'm not a deliverability guy; So there's a good chance that I
don't understand how these 'List-Unsubscribe' headers work.  However, I
would believe that pointing it to LITERALLY 
'www.example.com<http://www.example.com>' doesn't
produce the functionally desired.

List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.example.com/unsub/{token}>
List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click

I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP
WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Michael Peddemors via mailop]

Not to be a 'nitpicker', but isn't visiting a URL providing a lot more 
information that just the email address opt-out preferences ;)


Course, even worse are those companies that have an opt-out link that 
then asks for your email address ;) Doh!


On 2021-10-27 9:31 a.m., Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop wrote:

Here is what CAN-SPAM requires, following the updated rules issued by the FTC in May of 
2008; this is the "single step" requirement:

§ 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on 
recipients who wish to opt out.

Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require that 
any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the recipient's 
electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any other steps except 
sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a single Internet Web page, 
in order to:

(a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based mechanism, 
required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to receive future 
commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or

(b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) and 
(a)(4).

From: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/part-316

Anne
---

Anne P. Mitchell,
Attorney at Law
CEO Get to the Inbox by SuretyMail
Author: Section 6 of the Federal Email Marketing Law (CAN-SPAM)
Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Former Counsel: MAPS Anti-Spam Blacklist

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Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended
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Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company.
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop]

Here is what CAN-SPAM requires, following the updated rules issued by the FTC 
in May of 2008; this is the "single step" requirement:

§ 316.5 Prohibition on charging a fee or imposing other requirements on 
recipients who wish to opt out.

Neither a sender nor any person acting on behalf of a sender may require that 
any recipient pay any fee, provide any information other than the recipient's 
electronic mail address and opt-out preferences, or take any other steps except 
sending a reply electronic mail message or visiting a single Internet Web page, 
in order to:

(a) Use a return electronic mail address or other Internet-based mechanism, 
required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3), to submit a request not to receive future 
commercial electronic mail messages from a sender; or

(b) Have such a request honored as required by 15 U.S.C. 7704(a)(3)(B) and 
(a)(4).

From: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-16/part-316

Anne
---

Anne P. Mitchell, 
Attorney at Law
CEO Get to the Inbox by SuretyMail
Author: Section 6 of the Federal Email Marketing Law (CAN-SPAM)
Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Former Counsel: MAPS Anti-Spam Blacklist

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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Andrew C Aitchison via mailop]

On Mon, 25 Oct 2021, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote:


On 25 Oct 2021, at 02:33, John R Levine via mailop  wrote:


List-Unsubscribe: 
List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click

I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP
WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.


Definitely both.


I don't work for or with WhatCounts, but I know who does, so I nudged them.


Considering that every message sent without working unsubscribe is a CAN SPAM 
violation, I'd think some tooling to check that the link at least connects to a 
server would be in order.


I don’t think a List-Unsub header is sufficient to comply with CAN SPAM.

Do you have better information from the FTC that suggests it does?


I would think that knowing you have a broken unsubscribe option and 
demonstrably failing to address the issue would provide a case to 
answer, but then I am not lawyer.


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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Laura Atkins via mailop]

> On 26 Oct 2021, at 17:56, John Levine via mailop  wrote:
> 
> It appears that Laura Atkins via mailop  said:
>>> Considering that every message sent without working unsubscribe is a CAN 
>>> SPAM violation, I'd think some tooling to check that
>> the link at least connects to a server would be in order.
>> 
>> I don’t think a List-Unsub header is sufficient to comply with CAN SPAM. 
>> 
>> Do you have better information from the FTC that suggests it does?
> 
> Good question.  I looked at the FTC's CAN SPAM rule and while it says a whole 
> lot about
> what mailers have to do when people opt out, I don't see anything about the 
> form the
> opt-out has to take.
> 
> On the one hand, historically the opt-out has been in the body of the 
> message, but a whole
> lot of mail programs now recognize List-Unsubscribe and give you an option in 
> the frame of
> the message which is easier to recognize and probably more reliable than 
> looking for the
> tiny type at the bottom of the message.


There are still a lot of MUAs that don’t recognize List-Unsub headers 
(outlook?), and some MBPs that only show the List-Unsub header under certain 
circumstances. 

For those reasons, and others, I don’t believe a List-Unsub header is 
sufficient to comply with CAN SPAM. And I certainly would never recommend 
relying on a header field to ensure compliance. 

laura 



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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[John R Levine via mailop]

From memory, I believe ...


Why are you guessing?  The CAN SPAM law and the FTC's CAN SPAM rule are 
easy to find online.



lot of mail programs now recognize List-Unsubscribe and give you an

option in the frame of

the message which is easier to recognize


1. But others do not


Well, if you know the recipient is at Gmail, you know they show the unsub 
link, and there are plenty of senders that separate mail per large 
recipient.  Law is not software, you have to show reasonable intent.


Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[John Stephenson via mailop]

>From memory, I believe the sender needs to explain the available mechanism
for unsubscribe which must be internet-based and remain online for 30 days
(likely some other rules as well, like no password requirements).  So most
senders have the traditional unsub at the bottom of the body and they have
text that says, "Click here to unsubscribe."  The unsub header should work
for ease of use, but I don't think that can be the primary unsub mechanism
because then the sender would have to describe how people can unsubscribe
using it, and the user experience changes depending on the website/software
where the mail is viewed.

J

On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:12 AM Dave Crocker via mailop 
wrote:

>
>
> On 10/26/2021 9:56 AM, John Levine via mailop wrote:
> > On the one hand, historically the opt-out has been in the body of the
> message, but a whole
> > lot of mail programs now recognize List-Unsubscribe and give you an
> option in the frame of
> > the message which is easier to recognize
>
> 1. But others do not
>
> 2. And many/most/all hide fields they don't recognize
>
> 3. Which means that while the information is in the message, it isn't
> normally visible to some/many recipients.
>
> Which would seem to violate the intent of the requirement.
>
> d/
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Dave Crocker via mailop]

On 10/26/2021 9:56 AM, John Levine via mailop wrote:

On the one hand, historically the opt-out has been in the body of the message, 
but a whole
lot of mail programs now recognize List-Unsubscribe and give you an option in 
the frame of
the message which is easier to recognize


1. But others do not

2. And many/most/all hide fields they don't recognize

3. Which means that while the information is in the message, it isn't 
normally visible to some/many recipients.


Which would seem to violate the intent of the requirement.

d/
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[John Levine via mailop]

It appears that Laura Atkins via mailop  said:
>> Considering that every message sent without working unsubscribe is a CAN 
>> SPAM violation, I'd think some tooling to check that
>the link at least connects to a server would be in order.
>
>I don’t think a List-Unsub header is sufficient to comply with CAN SPAM. 
>
>Do you have better information from the FTC that suggests it does?

Good question.  I looked at the FTC's CAN SPAM rule and while it says a whole 
lot about
what mailers have to do when people opt out, I don't see anything about the 
form the
opt-out has to take.

On the one hand, historically the opt-out has been in the body of the message, 
but a whole
lot of mail programs now recognize List-Unsubscribe and give you an option in 
the frame of
the message which is easier to recognize and probably more reliable than 
looking for the
tiny type at the bottom of the message.

R's,
John
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Steven Champeon via mailop]

on Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 09:33:15PM -0400, John R Levine via mailop wrote:
> >>>List-Unsubscribe: 
> >>>List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click
> >>>
> >>>I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP
> >>>WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.
> >>
> >>Definitely both.
> >
> >I don't work for or with WhatCounts, but I know who does, so I nudged them.
> 
> Considering that every message sent without working unsubscribe is a
> CAN SPAM violation, I'd think some tooling to check that the link at
> least connects to a server would be in order.

example.com seems to be a favorite of folks needing a placeholder for a PTR:

103.193.36.20:dns2.example.com.
104.248.162.121:109.248.10.0:subnet.example.com.
107.181.187.148:vds4274.example.com.
109.248.10.10:free.example.com.
109.248.10.16:free.example.com.
109.248.10.1:gw.example.com.
109.248.10.255:broadcast.example.com.
109.248.200.124:free.example.com.
109.248.202.101:free.example.com.
146.185.220.10:fgcp.au.example.com.
147.255.227.0:147-255-227-0.w.example.com.
147.78.64.134:korkin.v.d.example.com.
147.78.65.189:xdarker87.example.com.
147.78.65.250:mcdonaldsrestaurant72.example.com.
147.78.66.22:erinbaxtere8.example.com.
154.59.112.203:www.example.com.
185.104.249.100:yuriybiit0.example.com.
185.104.249.241:mail16.example.com.
185.127.24.107:free.example.com.
185.127.24.149:free.example.com.
185.127.24.169:free.example.com.
185.127.25.100:free.example.com.
185.127.25.204:free.example.com.
185.139.69.163:trushinskiys.example.com.
185.139.69.222:ilvalil26.example.com.
185.142.98.138:mgnhost.example.com.
185.17.120.165:ya1.danilovvs.example.com.
185.188.182.186:hasper8367.example.com.
185.242.84.10:gaev7.ilya.s.example.com.
185.246.153.137:katruk.example.com.
185.31.160.143:zakalyor28.example.com.
185.62.57.110:tempbackup.example.com.
185.63.190.142:ddic.sudarev.example.com.
192.83.197.0:82.202.165.178:kakallibi121.example.com.
193.0.178.110:mgnhost.example.com.
193.233.149.198:mgnhost.ru.example.com.
193.9.60.102:dominik1.muratov.example.com.
195.140.144.101:bet5.centr.example.com.
228.0.0.101:103.193.36.10:dns1.example.com.
37.9.33.11:platform-admin58.example.com.
45.87.128.0:sub0.example.com.
5.188.148.10:gcore5.example.com.
5.188.71.100:roberto77.example.com.
5.188.71.32:ovqtitdenis1.example.com.
5.8.24.53:viktor.example.com.
62.173.138.226:bigwashing87.example.com.
62.173.150.114:bigwashing87.051.example.com.
69.48.130.253.colo.example.com.
89.108.104.112:testudo1871891.example.com.
92.223.67.10:mahjong9.example.com.
92.38.135.127:aisles2.webmaster.example.com.
92.38.135.141:m881.8isles.example.com.
92.38.148.107:support108.example.com.

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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Laura Atkins via mailop]

> On 25 Oct 2021, at 02:33, John R Levine via mailop  wrote:
> 
 List-Unsubscribe: 
 List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click
 
 I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP
 WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.
>>> 
>>> Definitely both.
>> 
>> I don't work for or with WhatCounts, but I know who does, so I nudged them.
> 
> Considering that every message sent without working unsubscribe is a CAN SPAM 
> violation, I'd think some tooling to check that the link at least connects to 
> a server would be in order.

I don’t think a List-Unsub header is sufficient to comply with CAN SPAM. 

Do you have better information from the FTC that suggests it does?

laura 

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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[John R Levine via mailop]

List-Unsubscribe: 
List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click

I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP
WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.


Definitely both.


I don't work for or with WhatCounts, but I know who does, so I nudged them.


Considering that every message sent without working unsubscribe is a CAN 
SPAM violation, I'd think some tooling to check that the link at least 
connects to a server would be in order.


Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via mailop]

Nobody wants to unsubscribe from Costco.

I like my Costco email like I like my Costco purchasesin bulk. ;)

-A

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 14:58 John Levine via mailop 
wrote:

> It appears that Larry M. Smith via mailop  said:
> >Ya know, I'm not a deliverability guy; So there's a good chance that I
> >don't understand how these 'List-Unsubscribe' headers work.
>
> Ah, you should ask the people who wrote RFC 8058.
>
> >List-Unsubscribe: 
> >List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click
> >
> >I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP
> >WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.
>
> Definitely both.
>
> R's,
> John
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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Al Iverson via mailop]

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 4:58 PM John Levine via mailop
 wrote:
>
> It appears that Larry M. Smith via mailop  said:
> >Ya know, I'm not a deliverability guy; So there's a good chance that I
> >don't understand how these 'List-Unsubscribe' headers work.
>
> Ah, you should ask the people who wrote RFC 8058.

Nah, those guys are jerks. :P You should really go hang out with the
people who wrote RFC 2369, that's where the real prestige came from.
Remember how that one guy used to have a website at
list-unsubscribe.com bragging about it? I was bummed to find out
recently that it's gone; I wanted to link to it in an upcoming blog
post about list-unsub functionality.

> >List-Unsubscribe: 
> >List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click
> >
> >I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP
> >WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.
>
> Definitely both.

I don't work for or with WhatCounts, but I know who does, so I nudged them.

Checking my traps, I don't see any other mail like that; it does seem
to be specific to Costco alone, at least in my own little slice of
spamtrap heaven.

Cheers,
Al Iverson

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Re: [mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[John Levine via mailop]

It appears that Larry M. Smith via mailop  said:
>Ya know, I'm not a deliverability guy; So there's a good chance that I 
>don't understand how these 'List-Unsubscribe' headers work. 

Ah, you should ask the people who wrote RFC 8058.

>List-Unsubscribe: 
>List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click
>
>I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP 
>WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.

Definitely both.

R's,
John
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[mailop] WhatCounts/Costco silliness

[Larry M. Smith via mailop]

Ya know, I'm not a deliverability guy; So there's a good chance that I 
don't understand how these 'List-Unsubscribe' headers work.  However, I 
would believe that pointing it to LITERALLY 'www.example.com' doesn't 
produce the functionally desired.


List-Unsubscribe: 
List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click

I don't know which fools to blame; The client Costco, or their ESP 
WhatCounts.  Perhaps both.

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