Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
On 2023-11-17 22:37:58 (+0800), Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: Since about September, we're hitting the rate limiter ~70% of the time every couple of days. Since ~15 November we're hitting the rate limiter for almost all mail we send. Anyone else noticing this? The problem went away last week. We haven't hit the rate-limiter since 29 November. If there was human intervention: thank you. :-) (Hope this message doesn't jinx it.) Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
We have been experiencing a similar issue since November 19 also. Mail from bounces.amazon.com (do-not-re...@amazon.com) is rate limited when it reaches google and the same happens with email originating from em2895.mirakl.net directed to our G-Suite domain. This means that if you are a merchant working with Amazon and Mirakl marketplaces and are expecting an OTP via email, you might never receive it on your G-Suite domain. It is so tricky to describe this to support staff, as we are a third service caught in how two others interoperate, that my hope is someone here reading this understands what happens. G-Suite's email reporting log says: In progress Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain storfund.com by aspmx.l.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400c:c16::1b]. The error that the other server returned was: 421-4.7.28 Gmail has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail. To protect 421-4.7.28 our users from spam, mail has been temporarily rate limited. Please 421-4.7.28 visit 421-4.7.28 https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to 421 4.7.28 review our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. z27-20020a056102067b00b00462a5123de5si685073vsf.142 - gsmtp And this is an email that was generated by Amazon's Vendor Central system. I do hope someone from G-Suite or Amazon reads this and lends a hand. On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 4:58 PM Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: > > For the past couple of days, mx2.FreeBSD.org is queuing more mail to > Google than usual. > > This is the 421: > > 421-4.7.28 Gmail has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail. To > protect 421-4.7.28 our users from spam, mail has been temporarily rate > limited. Please 421-4.7.28 visit 421-4.7.28 > https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to 421 > 4.7.28 review our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. > m17-20020a67f71100b0045d8a438106si295017vso.199 - gsmtp (in reply to > end of DATA command) > > We're not sending out more unsolicited mail than usual. Postmaster > Tools suggests authentication, spam rates, etc etc etc all unchanged. > We do all the things in the Bulk Sender Guidelines (except DMARC because > we don't want to frustrate our users ability to use third-party mailing > lists that don't mitigate it). We add ARC headers to all our outbound > mail. > > Since about September, we're hitting the rate limiter ~70% of the time > every couple of days. Since ~15 November we're hitting the rate limiter > for almost all mail we send. > > Anyone else noticing this? > > (We run hundreds of mailing lists (all of them confirmed opt-in, of > course) and have dozens of plain forwarding aliases. Our spam filtering > is pretty effective but there will always be some spam.) > > Brandon: any insights? Happy to supply more logs. > > Best wishes. > Philip > > -- > Philip Paeps > Senior Reality Engineer > Alternative Enterprises > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop -- keep raising the bar || http://theheadphonesrule.dev/ ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
On 2023-11-19 at 06:59:37 UTC-0500 (Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:59:37 +0100) Alessandro Vesely via mailop is rumored to have said: I don't think someone can drop almost all mail and still call itself a mail server. Were you running a mail system in the early-mid 2000s? At that time, I tracked the performance of a mid-sized spam control system for a business that handled around a million inbound SMTP sessions per day. The proportion of mail we rejected as spam was persistently over 90%, and at times broke 98%. We never had a significant FP problem. The state of email is better today, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if some sites still have a 90%+ spam burden. -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) Not Currently Available For Hire ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
On Sun 19/Nov/2023 00:15:58 +0100 Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: On 2023-11-18 18:59:53 (+0800), Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote: On Fri 17/Nov/2023 15:37:58 +0100 Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: We do all the things in the Bulk Sender Guidelines (except DMARC because we don't want to frustrate our users ability to use third-party mailing lists that don't mitigate it). If you publish p=none you're enabling DMARC without causing any trouble whatsoever to any list. The last time I looked into this (admittedly several years ago now), I still found a non-zero number of sites that would drop all email from domains with a DMARC record, regardless of the contents of that record. I don't think someone can drop almost all mail and still call itself a mail server. Even with all the distemper DMARC brought to mailing lists, it is still the path to securing email. Boycotting it is not a good idea. In addition you can enable reporting, which may occasionally provide some insight. I'm not convinced that insight would be actionable though. I know I have users who won't use the smtp.FreeBSD.org relay. Knowing who they are won't necessarily get me any closer to reducing their number. ;-) Confirmation of which DKIM signatures are verified is good to know. I miss the analogue feature for ARC. If you also send aggregate reports, those are an interesting read as well. BTW, this list itself has p=quarantine and rewrites your From: anyway. Not that enabling DMARC would free you from UnsolicitedRateLimitError. I've been receiving those since April this year, although I never send bulk email yet have all stuff in those guidelines, including DMARC. Yeah ... Google does what Google does. Unfortunately, users don't shout at Google. Shouting wouldn't solve problems either. Best Ale -- ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
On 2023-11-18 18:59:53 (+0800), Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote: On Fri 17/Nov/2023 15:37:58 +0100 Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: We do all the things in the Bulk Sender Guidelines (except DMARC because we don't want to frustrate our users ability to use third-party mailing lists that don't mitigate it). If you publish p=none you're enabling DMARC without causing any trouble whatsoever to any list. The last time I looked into this (admittedly several years ago now), I still found a non-zero number of sites that would drop all email from domains with a DMARC record, regardless of the contents of that record. In addition you can enable reporting, which may occasionally provide some insight. I'm not convinced that insight would be actionable though. I know I have users who won't use the smtp.FreeBSD.org relay. Knowing who they are won't necessarily get me any closer to reducing their number. ;-) BTW, this list itself has p=quarantine and rewrites your From: anyway. Not that enabling DMARC would free you from UnsolicitedRateLimitError. I've been receiving those since April this year, although I never send bulk email yet have all stuff in those guidelines, including DMARC. Yeah ... Google does what Google does. Unfortunately, users don't shout at Google. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
On Fri 17/Nov/2023 15:37:58 +0100 Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: We do all the things in the Bulk Sender Guidelines (except DMARC because we don't want to frustrate our users ability to use third-party mailing lists that don't mitigate it). If you publish p=none you're enabling DMARC without causing any trouble whatsoever to any list. In addition you can enable reporting, which may occasionally provide some insight. BTW, this list itself has p=quarantine and rewrites your From: anyway. Not that enabling DMARC would free you from UnsolicitedRateLimitError. I've been receiving those since April this year, although I never send bulk email yet have all stuff in those guidelines, including DMARC. Best Ale -- ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
On 2023-11-18 01:58:36 (+0800), Jarland Donnell via mailop wrote: I "feel" like there's been an increase but I'm not sure if the numbers support my gut feeling. Here's some stats I just pulled if you want to look at them: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14RfO9_RBnQBu4i2lzP4zYMGaQfTDGtNLmcC_E0xQeP4/edit?usp=sharing Thanks for sharing those. I'm glad it's not just us. I zoomed out to 120 days on Google Postmaster Tools this morning, and it's pretty clear that something changed in September. https://trouble.is/~philip/20231118-google-tempfails.png It's a little bit difficult to see on our end because we don't track individual destinations. It's not something we particularly care about. As long as email gets delivered eventually, we're happy. I only went to look at Google's graphs because one of our users forwarding their @freebsd.org to @gmail.com pointed out that their email consistently takes >1 hour to arrive. You can see a very subtle increase on our 90 day graph. It's a little clearer on the 30 day graph that queues haven't really been draining as well since 15 November. https://trouble.is/~philip/20231118-freebsd-mx2-90days.png https://trouble.is/~philip/20231118-freebsd-mx2-30days.png That difference from our "normal" queue depth maps neatly to this data point: root@mx2:/home/philip # mailq | egrep '421.*Gmail' | wc -l 7657 For what it's worth, user reported spam and feedback loop rate consistently round to zero on Google Postmaster Tools. https://trouble.is/~philip/20231118-google-spamrate.png https://trouble.is/~philip/20231118-google-fblrate.png Maybe I should amuse myself and start tracking our queues per destination. That feels like a fun thing to do on a sunny Saturday morning. :-) As far as I can tell, we haven't made any changes on our end that could explain Google tempfailing more of our email (not in November and not in September either). It probably is "just Google being Google". And as long as they're only tempfailing, it's not a huge problem. However, if there's something we need to do differently to prevent these from suddenly turning into rejects one day, I'm all ears. I can't see anything applicable in Google's Sender Guidelines. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
Dnia 17.11.2023 o godz. 22:37:58 Philip Paeps via mailop pisze: > For the past couple of days, mx2.FreeBSD.org is queuing more mail to > Google than usual. > > This is the 421: > > 421-4.7.28 Gmail has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail. > To protect 421-4.7.28 our users from spam, mail has been temporarily > rate limited. Please 421-4.7.28 visit 421-4.7.28 > https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to 421 > 4.7.28 review our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. > m17-20020a67f71100b0045d8a438106si295017vso.199 - gsmtp (in > reply to end of DATA command) > > We're not sending out more unsolicited mail than usual. Postmaster > Tools suggests authentication, spam rates, etc etc etc all > unchanged. We do all the things in the Bulk Sender Guidelines > (except DMARC because we don't want to frustrate our users ability > to use third-party mailing lists that don't mitigate it). We add > ARC headers to all our outbound mail. > > Since about September, we're hitting the rate limiter ~70% of the > time every couple of days. Since ~15 November we're hitting the > rate limiter for almost all mail we send. > > Anyone else noticing this? Just recently someone on Postfix mailing list wrote that he ran into this. I also ran into this - without any change on my server whatsoever - about a year ago, even for SINGLE messages sent to ONE Gmail recipient! It lasted about a week and disappeared by itself (however, the semi-permanent problem that all my mails seem to be filed to Spam folder by Gmail did NOT disappear). I'd say it's just "Google doing Google things". Probably nobody even at Google knows why and how... -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Google rate-limiting more aggressively than usual?
I "feel" like there's been an increase but I'm not sure if the numbers support my gut feeling. Here's some stats I just pulled if you want to look at them: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14RfO9_RBnQBu4i2lzP4zYMGaQfTDGtNLmcC_E0xQeP4/edit?usp=sharing On 2023-11-17 08:37, Philip Paeps via mailop wrote: For the past couple of days, mx2.FreeBSD.org is queuing more mail to Google than usual. This is the 421: 421-4.7.28 Gmail has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail. To protect 421-4.7.28 our users from spam, mail has been temporarily rate limited. Please 421-4.7.28 visit 421-4.7.28 https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to 421 4.7.28 review our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. m17-20020a67f71100b0045d8a438106si295017vso.199 - gsmtp (in reply to end of DATA command) We're not sending out more unsolicited mail than usual. Postmaster Tools suggests authentication, spam rates, etc etc etc all unchanged. We do all the things in the Bulk Sender Guidelines (except DMARC because we don't want to frustrate our users ability to use third-party mailing lists that don't mitigate it). We add ARC headers to all our outbound mail. Since about September, we're hitting the rate limiter ~70% of the time every couple of days. Since ~15 November we're hitting the rate limiter for almost all mail we send. Anyone else noticing this? (We run hundreds of mailing lists (all of them confirmed opt-in, of course) and have dozens of plain forwarding aliases. Our spam filtering is pretty effective but there will always be some spam.) Brandon: any insights? Happy to supply more logs. Best wishes. Philip ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
