Re: VIRGIL: Visual of the shield
You might be interested in the opening chapters of Murray Krieger's book Ekphrasis. This discusses not only a few attempts at representing Aeneas' and Achilles' shields visually, but also why it is important that (in Krieger's view at least) these attempts all fail. Tim On Wed, 08 Dec 1999 18:13:45 -0600 David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:16:13 -0600 (CST) From: Rich Guerra [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think actually looking upon a visual representation of the shield would help me understand it's significance. Does anyone know of a book or internet site that contains this?? Rich --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- TA Saunders, Department of Classics Ancient History [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: Visual of the shield
Mr. Guerra, There is an extraordinary fold-out rendition of the shield in the 18th-century bilingual text edited by Joseph Warton, The Works of Virgil in Latin and English (London: R. Dodsley, 1753). The University of Illinois has it on the shelves, according to the English Short Title Catalogue. Regards, Rodger Friedman Rare Book Studio One Mystic Circle Tuxedo, NY 10987 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rarebookstudio.com 914 351 5067 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Wilson-Okamura Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 7:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Visual of the shield message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:16:13 -0600 (CST) From: Rich Guerra [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think actually looking upon a visual representation of the shield would help me understand it's significance. Does anyone know of a book or internet site that contains this?? Rich --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight = dualism
message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura From: Michael-janck Snydert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 17:58:38 UZT Everything mirrors opposites, not to sound rambling or discouraging, but infinity does exist - to quote the saying: we must repeat. Perhaps not enough focus has ever been given - aside from eccentrics like Joyce and Carrol (Vergil?)- to mirrors. But repeat-reflect - a mirror reflection is not accurate, but a flipped/horizontal of that which is looking into it. If one is going to start talking mirrors at a book, one then takes into account the reader, following basic causality, albeit possibly unconsciously. This is so ingrained in people, the dislike of infinity, that they create things like religion, or at least utilize said things, to hide from it. I heard someone once call it one of those rambling things one will never know. But its not that hard to think about. The humunculus psyche (which of course is greek for mirror) can say nothing that isn't a description of itself, even if flipped horizontally. Why can't things be straight forward extreme? I don't know, but the universe doesn't seem designed that way. Only humans dislike camoflouge (or do they?). Jerzy Kosinski made a good point when after killing someone, the difference betwixt the action and memory saved his heart from exploding. As long as people huddle together in groups, they can be labeled American or French; otherwise, can one person really represent a country? If a country, why not a region? and if a region, why not a town? And why not make towns their own seperate countries? If you live in New York for a while, you begin to forget where you are, becoming only dimply aware that you are in some giant metroplitan area on earth. But in L.A., everyone thinks and says they are on the WEST COAST in L.A. inside whatever VALLEY or SANTA MONICA, even if they grew up there. The saying goes if you aint from new york ya soft. I geuss one has to be tough to live without the security of mirrors and extensions (of the nervous system). But most of history can be explained through technology and the looking glass, an oculus of the flesh. It may be that the writer of that Aeneas has only done such a good characterization, that his model accidentally has human qualities. Or he may have known. One can't really ask him can one? --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Is The Aeneid Finished, Or Just Done?
David Wilson-Okamura schrieb: message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura From: Paul O. Wendland [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:53:27 -0600 A better place to start from if you want to look for reflections of Aeneas' character in dying Turnus is the nice parallel between Turnus' limbs being undone by cold here (solvuntur frigore membra), and Aeneas' limbs being undone by cold the very first time he appears by name in the epic, in 1.92: extemplo Aeneae solvuntur frigore membra Also a pretty typical case of inclusio--backing out of a piece the same way you came in--that may be some evidence indicating the work was not half so unfinished as Virgil thought it was. What was it Hemingway once said? I never so much *finished* a book as I *abandoned* it. Yes, indeed, but two points I try to reflect in this context: 1. same phrase might show us an idiomatic speech; the question is then: if this formula is used in other contexts too, in other places of Roman (or Greek?) literature; 2. the abrupt ending of this epos: hwo does an epos end? a) Ilias: one verse only like a chapter-title: hôs hoi g' amphiepon taphon Hektoros hippodamoio so they cared for the funeral of Hektor, the horse-thamer that is also a little bit abrupt, but the chapter itself rounds the theme of the beginning, mênin ... Achillêos, fullfilling it, satisfying it: mênin of course meant the not-fighting of Achileus, not willing to fight, withdrawing from the battle; then he comes back, kills Hektor, and with the funeral ends the whole plexus very round-circled. b) Odyssee: Mentori eidomenê êmen demas êde kai audên - (Pallas Athene, who was) totally similar to Mentor, in her outer form and in her voice not less abrupt; a feeling of ending the eops comes only by this Taking-off the view from the theme, like let's change the view now, it was enough about the struggle; and it is a little praise of Pallas Athene; and it is an epic formula, theophanic (or simply epiphanic) epitheton of Pallas Athene. Singing the muse in the beginning, singing the goddes in the end. Here also the story has become rounded in fullfilling and peace. Argonautika and Dionysiaka are not so abrupt ending - what alse should be compared? the Latin epe of course: Lucan - o, I have no Lucan in my house, who helps and gives the end for a comparing glance on it? grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Is The Aeneid Finished, Or Just Done?
At 12:27 PM 12/9/99 -0500, matthewspencer wrote: but to me, although the poem might end abruptly, compared to its predecessors, i am not sure how else the aeneid *could* have ended. i do not think that anybody disagrees that aeneas is greatly changed by the end, specifically in terms of how his own passions influence him. to end the poem with some allussion that creates a more perfect whole, which is i think what you want, that features aeneas not in the midst of passion, must become artificial. A few notes: 1. I'm not convinced that Aeneas has really changed over the course of the poem, at least not on the score of passion. Look, for instance, at the way Aeneas uses amens to describe himself in his account of the fall of Troy in Aen. 2 A 2.314 Arma amens capio; nec sat rationis in armis, A 2.745 Quem non incusaui amens hominumque deorumque, 2. An Aeneid that ends differently is not, at least was not, unthinkable. To my knowledge, there have been at least four different attempts to rewrite the ending or finish the poem. For more info and translations of two of them, see http://virgil.org/translations/ 3. What does it mean to call something in a poem artificial? Isn't it all artificial? To quote something from an Amazon ad I saw once, Some people say life is the thing, but I prefer books. This is an exaggeration (I hope), but one of the great things about art is that it gives us things life can't -- at least not in one lifetime. Or as Sidney puts it: Nature never set forth the earth in so rich tapestry as divers poets have done, neither with so pleasant rivers, fruitful trees, sweet-smelling flowers, nor whatsoever else may make the too much lovely earth more lovely. Her world is brazen, the poets only deliver a golden. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Is The Aeneid Finished, Or Just Done?
message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura From: Timothy Mallon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 10:22:36 PST It is interesting that the _Iliad_ ends with a reflection: the last element of the last word -damos is an adjective related to _damazein_ a word frequently used in the sense of slay (literally: subdue/overcome/tame). So the horse tamer is himself the tamed. But as Achilles knows, he too is fated to die (and so informed). The _Iliad_'s implications are more death and disaster, some of which is incorporated into the _Aeneid_. The _Odyssey_ follows a trajectory whose completion is a kind of rest; reunion and restored order. The _Aeneid_ can't end on either of these. There is no rest for Aeneas or for Italy (and indeed the Odyssean part of the _Aeneid_ ends only to launch the Iliadic); nor perhaps would Virgil wish to taint his vision of Rome with the _Iliad_'s insistence on the almost vegetative cyclicity of human life, rot and decay. He wants to initiate and imply a grand sweep rather than a cycle. But the pessimism of the Iliadic vision which informs the end of the _Aeneid_ undercuts this. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Is The Aeneid Finished, Or Just Done?
3. What does it mean to call something in a poem artificial? Isn't it all artificial? yes, i phrased that poorly perhaps. not surprising, i have never been able to say what i mean. yes, we could call all poetry artiface, but should we be interested in a poem that makes no sense? to one who is still unconvinced that aeneas has not changed (i can see his frantic reactions to situations as being an extension of his reluctance to do something that he must. but i have not looked at the two passages you cite in their full context. no text is available to me for the nonce), for aeneas to sort of snap back into place after all of this would be harsh to my heart. maybe i am just dumb. entirely conceivable, in fact i am almost sure of it. i need to read the aeneid again. perhaps over break. i am tired, bye. in sophomoredom, -matthewspencer --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Visual of the shield
Re shield discussion. Does the shield serve as a reminder of the sequence in Book VI where Aeneas is told of his and his successors future? Yet another reminder of the destiny of the Roman race that he will see established - he has always seemed in the previous books to need a lot of reminders of his destiny! ah, destiny- well, if you look at it, Aeneas faces his destiny through all 12 books, but is told of it in several specific places- the Shield and the Underworld are the two most obvious, where he actually sees the future. However, in book 2, Venus removes the cloud from his eyes so he can see it is the gods who destroy Troy, while Creusa tells him to mourn her, but to move on to the land he is destined for. In book 4, Aeneas is once again told of his destiny when he must leave Dido and carthage- it is not his fate to stay there. Both of these involve Aeneas' destiny, but the Shield is the first real tangible object which Aeneas has- the rest are either words or shades- remember, he WAS in the underworld in book 6, so I don't think we should picture human figures. I'm sure there are others people can bring up, but it does appear the image of the shield (even though aeneas does not know exactly what it means) is very much a defining moment in the book. Is there a better way to keep his destiny before him and his enemies, than the engraved shield? Short answer- NO Cf too the shield allegedly taken by Alexander when he visited the tomb of Achilles and took away what was reputed to be the hero's shield. Virgil surely had that in mind at some point. Conections with Alexander seem most apt- Augustus certainly had great admiration for the Macedonian prince- and emulation of his conquests can be seen in the poetry of the period, certainly. Cheers, Jim __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Aeneas and the Heroic Code
It seems that Aeneas tends to be rebellious against the heroic code that is generally held sacred by ancient warriors. Why do you think he rebels against this code? Does it have to do with the Roman morality of the future? --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
