Re: VIRGIL: sibylla syllaba salut!
Emmanuel.Plantade schrieb: Cher M.Zimmermann, Pour répondre partiellement à votre question sur la loi de la pénultième : 1° C'est Quintilien qui la formule sous sa forme connue scolairement, mais, 2° Il y en a trace aussi chez Cicéron, quoique de manière vague, 3° Les grammatici se réfèrent constamment à cette loi. E.Plantade merci - gratias ago, le mot - verbum - antepaenultima quaesivi in lexikois et Priscianum solum inveni auctorem - sexti post Christum natum saeculi (!) (Georges, Ausführliches Handwörterbuch I, Sp. 464), Prisc. 3,31 u.a.; itaque in Der Kleine Pauly Bd.4, Sp.1142 (Priscianus) hoc inveni: ...während 7. De accentibus, wenn echt, nur in einer späteren Bearbeitung vorliegt. ubi ergo inveniri poterit Quintiliani formula quodque exemplum praebet? opus est loco argumentoque, si illud vobis placet, grusz, hansz Hans Zimmermann http://home.t-online.de/home/lapsitexillis/jesse.htm http://home.t-online.de/home/hanumans/hansz.htm --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: virgo in Ecl.4
Dear Helen, I have been astonished, that such a whole group of commentators saw that virgo as iustitia (and not as Artemis-Lucina or Persephone/Kore coming back to earth's surface or Aphrodite/Kypris with flowers under her feet). So I see a path, that I didn't see before: the commentators meant Virgo Astraia, daughter of Zeus and Themis, who as last but not least god leaves the lost earth in the war of everyone against everyone during aetas ferrea - Ovid, Metamorphoses 1,149 f: victa iacet pietas et virgo caede madentis ultima caelestum terras Astraea reliquit - by Aratos, Phainomena 96 ff interpreted as Dike (daughter of Themis) - so the circle is closed. thank you, it has helped much, for every Christmas time I read Ekl.4 with those pupils, who are in the 4th year (last year) of their Latin-course in school, very slowly, verse by verse. Some parallels to Ovids (Hesiodic) aetates in Met. 1,89 ff I had been using in former times; but this direct parallel from the leaving to the returning Virgo (Astraea) I hadn't found out, because I was fixed to the aetas aurea (Saturnia regna), comparing the vegetability (the vegetable...) of eternal spring here (Vergil, Buc.4,18-15) and there (Ovid). Now I also like to compare Ecl.4 with Ieshaiahu 11,1-10 (with the vegetarian lion...): http://home.t-online.de/home/lapsitexillis/jesse.htm#es wird ein Reis grusz, hansz Helen Conrad schrieb: Servius: : Iustitia, quae Erigone fuit Servius Auctus (Danielis, Donatus, or - as they say in Dublin - whatever you are having yourself) filia Themides, (cum) inter homines versaretur, propter eorum scelera terras reliquit: quam ideovirginem dicunt, quod sit incorrupta iustitia. Philargyrius I: idest Iustitia fugiens malos hominum mores inter rusticos morata [est] in caelum abiisse fertur. Ideo Iustitia virgo dicta est, eo quod incorrupta est, vel Maria. Philargerius II: idest Iustitia vel Maria. REDIT idest post Eva Scholia Bernensia: Iustitia, inter rusticos morata, fugiens mores hominum malos, in caelum abisse fertur et nunc redisse. VIRGO, iustitia, quae REDIRE decreuit propter hominum conversiones, vel Terra, quae nunc frugifera, sicut et nunc, vel secundum nos Maria. IAM REDIT ET VIRGO idest incorrupta iustitia, quae fugiens malos hominum mores in caelum dicuntur abisse. I've quoted them all - as you would expect - ala Thilo and/or Hagen. I have placed TH's italics under Servius Auctus. Checked Verona with both TH and Bashera editions - although I was almost certain the fourth was irretrievable - also checked Ihm's ed. of Medicea scholia (again a forlorn hope). Is there any recent work on that one? Helen Conrad-O'Briain From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:30:25 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: virgo in Ecl.4 what do the commentaries tell about the virgo in Buc. 4 - iam redit et virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna ? Hans Zimmermann http://home.t-online.de/home/mosaiken/ekloga4.htm --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Hans Zimmermann http://home.t-online.de/home/hanumans/hansz.htm Latein/Griechisch und Ethik/Philosophie auf dem Sächsischen Schulserver http://marvin.sn.schule.de/~latein/index.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: virgo in Ecl.4
what do the commentaries tell about the virgo in Buc. 4 - iam redit et virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna ? Hans Zimmermann http://home.t-online.de/home/mosaiken/ekloga4.htm --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 6 and Bob Dylan
not to forget: the parallele verse in the Magnificat - Bob Dylan likes the picture-language of prophets and psalm-verses in the bible - Lukas 1,51 and specially 1,52 (Vulgata): fecit potentiam in brachio suo dispersit superbos mente cordis sui deposuit potentes de sede et exaltavit humiles grusz, hansz From: Jim O'Hara [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://republika.pl/bobdylan/lat/lonesome.htm (the site cites Vergil in a footnote) Lonesome Day Blues 30 I'm going to teach peace to the conquered, I'm going to tame the proud. -- Jim O'Hara Paddison Professor of Latin 206B Howell Hall phone: (919) 962-7649 fax: (919) 962-4036 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.unc.edu/~oharaj surface mail: James J. O'Hara Department of Classics CB# 3145, 101 Howell Hall The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3145 --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, c. --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Hans Zimmermann http://home.t-online.de/home/hanumans/hansz.htm Latein/Griechisch und Ethik/Philosophie auf dem Sächsischen Schulserver http://marvin.sn.schule.de/~latein/index.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: question
P. Vergilius Maro is a Roman author, a poet, a real historical person. VIRGIL SUNPAYCO schrieb: IS VIRGIL IS A MHYTH,FICTION OR A LEGEND? the email adress of this anonymus (or pseudonymus) has the nazi symbol 88 Hans Zimmermann http://home.t-online.de/home/hanumans/hansz.htm Latein/Griechisch und Ethik/Philosophie auf dem Sächsischen Schulserver http://marvin.sn.schule.de/~latein/index.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Picture of Vergilius: Mosaik in Bardo-Museum, Tunis
the famous portrait of Vergilius sitting between the two muses of historiography and tragedy is to be seen in the galery: http://www.sn.schule.de/~latein/mosaiken.html for some time (not forever). viel Spaß beim Anschauen (die Bilder leuchten auf dem Bildschirm, sie sind fast schöner als die Originale...) grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Dionysian elemets in the Aeneid
Bruce Lewis schrieb: Yes, sir, those are the works and the writers I am referring to. Any ideas for development in essays by very advanced high school students? They've read the works already. mmh. first idea: the Dido-book. but we'd better go back to the roots: from Homer to Lucan all epic developments show parts of dramatic polarity, also of a hidden Dionysian symphonic depth under a more describing Apollinic surface, so just beginning with Achilleus and his selfbinding mênis (first words: mênin aeide...) as the great fundament of all inner and outer fights fought in the Ilias; then in all those crisis-situations of Odysseus, where Poseidaon seems to represent the Dionysic oecean (remember Schopenhauer: principium individuationis as a little boat on a stormy sea), Odysseus always is the skillfull consciousness, formed by experience, personality and I (o moi ego!). This experience in tempest and boiling oceanwaves has some echoes in the Aeneis, directly in the beginning. But not Poseidaon, it's more Iuno who represents the Dionysian power and nemesis-part against the well-formed personality, the duty himself, Aeneas. So for the Dido-book it might be fertile to look at: what is Iuno's influence on Dido? Dido's love is dramatic, Aeneas' consciousness of duty shows an anti-dramatic counterpart, that lets the tragedy develope until catastrophe. Dramatic also are the many dialogues and speeches. (But where is the chorus?) second idea: Aeneas with Sibylla in the inferno. the link is built by the chthonian goddesses and their relationship to Dionysos in the Eleusis-mysteria. But the whole scene ist not Dionysic in character or Chaos as the epic storms and ocean-sceneries use to be, no: it is very awakened and formed; it brings rules, punishments and renewing order of lives, hell and heaven well-differentiated, and it has the great prophecy of Ilion=Roma: that all shows Apollon, changing the powers of Python into pythian oracle, maybe the Apollinic function of Hermes Psychagêtês, too; - and in the Elysian fields we find Apollon in his serene function of Mousagêtês, for we see the poets, singers, philosophers there, Orpheus himself we see - (is Orpheus more an Apollon on earth or a torne Dionysos - and all later poets try to collect those disiecti membra poetae? so far a try of a fast sketch, (tja, das ist ein weites Feld) grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: metric of tulerunt in Ekloga IV, 61
thank you all, liebe Mitleser und Antworter, I found a lot of help to my little problem. Dear Mr. Holford-Strevens, This was the historically correct form, in which -er- (short e) before a vowel (as in the pluperfect and future perfect indicative and the perfect subjunctive) corresponds to -is- before a consonant as in -isti -istis and the pluperfect subjunctive; does this mean: -er- (corresponding to -is) shows a rhotazism (and following this idea: identity of the Suffix -is- along all forms in the perfect-stem)? And is this Suffix identic with the -s- of Greek and Sanskrit (s-)aorist? thank you also for the stabile examples (Plautus, Horatius etc.), grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Caesar novelised
George (Little Latin, less Greek) Heidekat schrieb: Memo Subjecte: VIRGIL: Caesar novelised1/3/00 08:47 For those of us who came in late, can someone please explain the name Mantovani? for those of us who come in now, can you please explain where you found the name Mantovani? Mantova is Maro's birthplace, Mantua me genuit... grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
Thomas Coens schrieb: in Homer time is cyclical (images of the wheeling heavens, the changing seasons, the people joining together in a circle); the dilemma of the Homeric hero is timeless, eternally recurring. By contrast, time on Aeneas' shield is linear. Events occur at a determinable point in time; and the meaning of one event can only be established by reference to what precedes and what follows it. If time in Aeneas' shield is linear, this is an exception of all we know from Maro's Lucretian cosmology, specially from the famous hymn Bucolica (Ekloga) 4 with circles of nature, history, ages etc., and the reincarnation-circle of human lives in Aeneis 6 (pater Anchises: Roman heroes are the Troyan heroes, coming back to the earths surface), compare Cicero's Somnium Scipionis. It would also be an exception of all we know from ancient time-concept: aion is a time-circle, eis aiônas tôn aiônôn (in saecula saeculorum) is the formular conserved also in Christian leithourgeia (and Latin in the missa) for: into all time-circles of time-circles. An old fractal, seen in stars, planets, nature and biological rhythms, as we are told. Linear time - if this is to be found in a Vergilius-text, it would be a revolution! legamus comparemus examinamur! ich glaube sonst meinen eigenen Augen nicht! grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: The Aeneid vs De Rerum Natura
Dara Soukamneuth schrieb: I am doing a very short paper comparing Lucretius' De Rerum Natura with another classical author's work. Do you have any suggestions as to comparisons of the Aeneid and De Rerum Natura or sources of information? Thank you very much Dara first idea: not just the Aeneis, but Maro himself in Bucolica (Ekloga), the creation story of the bound Silen, that is carmen No 6 (in the symmetrical order of Bucolica the corresponding carmen to the famous No 4). And another verse-group belonging to the Lucretius-Maro-connection is the bees-kosmos in Georgica 4,219-227. second idea: coming from the cosmology of Bucolica 6 and Georgica 4,219 ff to the elements-and-reincarnation-concept of pater Anchises in Aeneis 6. You have luck: only a few versus are to be compared, but very dense and lucretissi. (I hope I don't tell you the cold coffee from yesterday) grusz, hansz (in Goerlitz) --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Is The Aeneid Finished, Or Just Done?
David Wilson-Okamura schrieb: message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura From: Paul O. Wendland [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:53:27 -0600 A better place to start from if you want to look for reflections of Aeneas' character in dying Turnus is the nice parallel between Turnus' limbs being undone by cold here (solvuntur frigore membra), and Aeneas' limbs being undone by cold the very first time he appears by name in the epic, in 1.92: extemplo Aeneae solvuntur frigore membra Also a pretty typical case of inclusio--backing out of a piece the same way you came in--that may be some evidence indicating the work was not half so unfinished as Virgil thought it was. What was it Hemingway once said? I never so much *finished* a book as I *abandoned* it. Yes, indeed, but two points I try to reflect in this context: 1. same phrase might show us an idiomatic speech; the question is then: if this formula is used in other contexts too, in other places of Roman (or Greek?) literature; 2. the abrupt ending of this epos: hwo does an epos end? a) Ilias: one verse only like a chapter-title: hôs hoi g' amphiepon taphon Hektoros hippodamoio so they cared for the funeral of Hektor, the horse-thamer that is also a little bit abrupt, but the chapter itself rounds the theme of the beginning, mênin ... Achillêos, fullfilling it, satisfying it: mênin of course meant the not-fighting of Achileus, not willing to fight, withdrawing from the battle; then he comes back, kills Hektor, and with the funeral ends the whole plexus very round-circled. b) Odyssee: Mentori eidomenê êmen demas êde kai audên - (Pallas Athene, who was) totally similar to Mentor, in her outer form and in her voice not less abrupt; a feeling of ending the eops comes only by this Taking-off the view from the theme, like let's change the view now, it was enough about the struggle; and it is a little praise of Pallas Athene; and it is an epic formula, theophanic (or simply epiphanic) epitheton of Pallas Athene. Singing the muse in the beginning, singing the goddes in the end. Here also the story has become rounded in fullfilling and peace. Argonautika and Dionysiaka are not so abrupt ending - what alse should be compared? the Latin epe of course: Lucan - o, I have no Lucan in my house, who helps and gives the end for a comparing glance on it? grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: The Aneid, Book VI, Gate of Horn and Gate of IVory
Caroline Lee schrieb: In Book VI, Aeneaus descends to the underworld. At the end of Book VI, we are told that there are two gates through which dreams and ghosts ascend to the world above: true ones pass through the gates of horn, false ones through the gates of ivory. After his visit to the realm of the dead, we are told, Aeneas and the Sibyl return to the world above through the gates of ivory. I am stumped by the implications for what Aeneas has just witnessed and the future of his epic. Sehr gut beobachtet! a real problem. Eduard Norden: P.Vergilius Maro, Aeneis Buch VI (Teubner, Leipzig/Stuttgart 1927/1995) page 348 f about verse 893 ff: ... Die richtige Deutung gab W.Everett, Class. review XIV (1900) 153 f. Es war ein weit verbreiteter Glaube, daß die falschen Träume vor und die wahren nach Mitternacht kämen (...), eine von Vergil selbst bei den von ihm erzählten Traumerscheinungen befolgte Vorstellung (z.B. 8,26.67). Wenn Aeneas also durch das Tor der falschen Träume entlassen wird, so liegt darin nichts weiter als die Zeitbestimmung 'vor Mitternacht'. Die katabasis begann bei Morgengrauen (255); 535 ff ist es Nachmittag geworden und die Sibylle drängt, das datum tempus auszunutzen; vor Mitternacht, d.h. der Stunde, zu der die Toten die Oberwelt besuchen dürfen (vgl. 5,719-39), muß die anabasis des Lebenden vollzogen sein. in my bad English (please excuse my mistakes, maybe your German is better): ... W.Everett, Class. review XIV (1900) 153 f gave the right interpretation. It was a common belief that false dreams would come before midnight and true dreams after midnight (...); Vergil himself follows this idea in those dream-tales, which are told by himself, (for example 8,26.67). That Aeneas leaves through the portal for false dreams means nothing else than: the point of time is situated before midnight. His katabasis began in the early dawn (255); 535 ff it has become afternoon and Sibylla forces him to take the chance of the datum tempus; before midnight - that means before the hour in which the dead are allowed to visit their living relatives in the upper world (compare 5,719-39) - the anabasis has to be done by the living person (by living Aeneas). grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Hi!
quid sibi vult? removete quaeso hanc pestilentiam! [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Your own DotCom .NET .ORG .TO .CC and .MD domains! *FREE REGISTRATION, FREE SETUP, FREE TRANSFERS, ONLY $19.95/mo for HOSTING! NO HIDDEN COSTS! NO SILLY BANNERS or popup Ads! LIVE Hands-on Support Technicians ALL DOMAIN HOSTING, *REGISTRATION, AND SETUP IS INCLUDED: ONLY $19.95/mo ** Your Reference number is NS925 ** Operators are standing by 9am-7pm EST: 1-800-393-8630 ALL of these services and MORE! ---For ONLY $19.95/mo. - 1. Your own domain name (example=== (www.AnyNameYouChoose.com) 2. 6 page Website Kit with graphics and CGI! Use it or recycle it! 3. 50 megs of quality webspace will fit more than 300 pages! 4. FULL FTP access everyday all day all night. 5. 5 POP E-mail boxes 6. Unlimited e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7. TOLL FREE! support to help you out. 8. Unlimited amount of traffic or data transfer! 9. Support Forum access. All the tools you need from HTML to Perl 10. Guaranteed 99% uptime or your money back! 11. Ongoing pledge to price freeze! 12. FREE SETUP! NO HIDDEN COSTS! 13. FREE TRANSFERS! * FREE REGISTRATION! 14. Instant Account Activation and First Month Free! 15. FREE extensions and support for Microsoft Frontpage! 16. Secure Server SSL with NO monthly fee! 17. FREE GuestBook 18. FREE MessageBoard 19. FREE Order Form (ready to take credit cards!) 20. Search Engines Submission Special! Free Traffic Report Software and more... Don't miss this 1 time opportunity from Digital Networks! CALL NOW! 1-800-393-8630 Front page support available at no extra cost! E-commerce, secure server service available Webmaster/Reseller accounts available * Internic $35 Annual maintenance still applies. Free search Engine programming for first 50 applicants For Sales Please Call == 1-800-393-8630 Removes please call 1-800-409-8312 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: fwd: site info
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Adult Webhosting starting at only $39.95 per month. Call for details 407-599-5253 ... ... quid sibi vult? --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils
Jess Paehlke schrieb: Dr. Conrad, I'd be very interested to hear more about what Vergil of Salzburg said re: the antipodes and Boniface's concerns. Could you recommend any references about this? see: http://www.fortunecity.de/lindenpark/schwitters/149/globushinweise.html (Dr. Krüger in Berlin with his habilitation-dissertation about globus-form of earth in medieval time and about the antipodes-argument). grusz, hansz http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454/links.htm --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro?
James Butrica schrieb: Message forwarded by moderator follows. From: F. Heberlein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:08:46 +1 Does someone know about a philosopher or grammarian called « Virgilius Maro » who was living in the 7th century? I would like to read something about this author, his life, his works. This is Vergilius Maro Grammaticus, famous for his claim to have attended in his youth a 13 days dispute on the correct vocative of ego (now and then i ask our undergrads the 'correct' solution, and more than often i get replies like o ege ...). Under what circumstances would one use a vocative form of the 1st-person singular pronoun? And please don't keep us in suspense: which form did VMG regard as correct, and which were the competing forms? yes, funny indeed, but let's remember the Greek neighbour form: Odysseias e (book 5), 299: ô moi egô deilos ... grusz, hansz http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454/sprachen.htm --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: and Dante
RANDI C ELDEVIK schrieb: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Hans Zimmerman wrote: 3. The continuity of Roma as caput mundi in the complementarism of king and priest, of rex and sacerdos - see So erhielt Petrus das Kaisertum http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454/otiapref.htm - in the form of Kaiser and Papa, confirmed by the Constantine donation - a fake, of course, but in this form best expression of the fundamental idea. So far, I'm d'accord with RANDI C ELDEVIK; but he [--Actually, she.] also has written some nonsense about the ordo domus St. Mariae Teutonicorum in his last letter: the Teutonic Knights (an order of military monks) ? Templises (Temple-knights) and the knights of Malta (what is the English name for this ordines?) were the prototype of this ordo. Military monks - is that the common name of such knights? [--What is the problem with calling the Teutonic Knights a military order of monks? That's what they were, weren't they?] good morning. Are you sure, they were monks? Templar-knights, Maltesians and knights of the ordo domus etc. were not monks in the classical sense: they were married often, they were knights - that is an opposite lifestyle also in medieval view, see Trevrizent in the Perceval/Parzival-epos: http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454-0003/trevriz.htm Trevrizent has to end his life as a knight for to become a monk. In society of the graal live knights, not monks: they are able to marry noble women - so the idea (the literature, that makes history). The people conquered by the ordo were the Prussians, and later also the people living in the Balticum. Conflict with the Polish kingdom was late . . . [--I don't think Mantovano is the place to discuss late-medieval Eastern European history. But I would like to briefly note that I am not talking nonsense. I may have skipped over a lot; certainly the Teutonic Knights were aggressors throughout a large part of the Baltic and tried to suppress a lot of indigenous cultures. yes. please tell me one knight, who was not an aggressor. please tell me one medieval king, who didn't fight against his neighbours. please tell me one European state, who didn't try to colonise. Medieval time is a neverending war of each noble person against the other one. But in doing so the Teutonic Knights came into conflict with the Poles, since the Polish-Lithuanian Federation had ruled vast northeastern regions (much bigger than the present-day states of Poland and Lithuania) ever since the time of Jagiello; yes, a big aggressive state, conquering the Ucraine and forcing the orthodox people into Catholicism. and, in their arrogance, the Teutonic Knights tended to view the Poles themselves as foreign and non-Catholic in the same way as they viewed the neighboring peoples with whom the Poles were confederated. why should they? where is the text? (die Quelle)? For my purposes, the Teutonic Knights and _all_ their activities are just another example of an arrogant approach to cultural hegemony that was all too common in Western Christianity during the Middle Ages; no. It was common all over the world. It is not fruit of Christianity, but of feudal structure of society. afterward, too. I might just as well have mentioned the example of the Spanish conquistadors who wanted to convert the Amerinds of Mexico and Central America, but who forbade Amerind converts to be ordained to the priesthood because, somehow, even after baptism and Catholic education, they were considered to be not good enough. Sadly, the _Aeneid_ is tied in with all these various attempts at cultural hegemony: see Richard Waswo's article The History that Literature Makes in _New Literary History_.] Randi Eldevik (Ms.) Oklahoma State University thank you, that's a good bridge to the theme: building a state like the Imperium Romanum with its Ideology of pax Romana means: to leave the old feudal structure of eternal war. After 700 years of Roman war Vergil sees the great peace coming by Augustus. And he is not the only one with this vision. The idea of a big area of civilisation without borders comes back late. It is recent: shall the UNO debellare superbos in East Timor or not? grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: and Dante
salvete collagae, Ecloga IV in the Bucolica of course is the great poem, that showes Maro as a prophet in medieval Christian view (since late antiquity, specially since Constantin). But also in Aeneis VI three points connnect Christianism with the imperium-idea of pater Anchises: 1. The coincidence of Aeneis VI, 853 parcere subiectis et debellare superbos with the Magnificat (Lucas 1,52): deposuit potentes de sede et exaltavit humiles; 2.the idea of this imperium itself, that belongs in Christian view to the four imperia of the Daniel-Apokalypsis and is the last one before the big shabbat of thousend years, the the regnum millennium, that means: Christus cannot come and reign 1000 years, before the Roman imperium has not gone. As long as it lived in its different forms, traditions and transformations, so the idea of Roman imperium in medieval time, as long the last imperium on earth, the milennium of Christ himself, was not able to come: the fourth regnum of the Daniel-Apokalypsis had to disappear first. 3. The continuity of Roma as caput mundi in the complementarism of king and priest, of rex and sacerdos - see So erhielt Petrus das Kaisertum http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454/otiapref.htm - in the form of Kaiser and Papa, confirmed by the Constantine donation - a fake, of course, but in this form best expression of the fundamental idea. So far, I'm d'accord with RANDI C ELDEVIK; but he also has written some nonsense about the ordo domus St. Mariae Teutonicorum in his last letter: the Teutonic Knights (an order of military monks) ? Templises (Temple-knights) and the knights of Malta (what is the English name for this ordines?) were the prototype of this ordo. Military monks - is that the common name of such knights? who somehow decided that the Poles weren't Catholic enough--despite their centuries-long Catholicism-- and that true Catholicism would have to be enforced by the sword. The people conquered by the ordo were the Prussians, and later also the people living in the Balticum. Conflict with the Polish kingdom was late, it was a political conflict about Danzig 1308; but such conflicts have been also with Danmark and Nowgorod and many other kingdoms. The ordo is one root of the later Prussian state. I think Oklahoma is an Indian name, occupied by European colonists. So Prussia had been the name of the people, whose Country was occupied and europised by the knights of the ordo domus St. Mariae Teutonicorum. Prussia doesn't exist any more. Long live Oklahoma! grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
