Re: VIRGIL: The furor of Amata
J. L. P. B. mentions Alison Keith; the title: Keith, A.M. , Engendering Rome: Women in Latin Epic, Cambridge (2000) http://www.cup.org/titles/catalogue.asp?isbn=052155621X ($US19.00 paperback) see index s.v. Amata also: On Amata and Allecto see Feeney D.C. (1991) The Gods in Epic: Poets and Critics of the Classical Tradition. Oxford There is an important new commentray on Aeneid 7: Horsfall, Nicholas, Virgil, Aeneid 7: a commentary. Mnemosyne Suppl. 198 (Leiden 2000) (disagreeing with Feeney on the top) not much on art in any of these James Butrica wrote: I'm working on tacitus' use of furor in relation to Messalina (Claudius' wife) and I remembered the Aeneid passage with Amata raging out of control (like a top) in Aeneid 7. I seem to recall reading it as an undergrad over 20 years ago. Does anyone have any current thoughts on the role of Amata and her madness (or, better yet, any images of it in medieval or modern art)? Seems a peculiarly feminist topic, although Tacitus certainly uses it to refer to the madness of soldiers fairly frequently (Hist. 1,63, 1.81, 2.46 and 4.27, as well as Annals 1.49. It is used for women in Annals 14.32, where he describes the causes of the Boudican revolt in Britain. Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions. Cheers, Dr. James Stewart Southern Illinois University Is there anything relevant in Alison Keith's fairly recent book on women in epic (Gendering Epic I think was the title)? James L. P. Butrica -- Jim O'Hara Paddison Professor of Latin Director of Graduate Studies 206B Howell Hall phone: (919) 962-7649 fax: (919) 962-4036 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.unc.edu/~oharaj surface mail: James J. O'Hara Department of Classics CB# 3145, 101 Howell Hall The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3145 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?
David's suggestion of a connection between the bad air of Albunea and that of Lake Avernus is fascinating, and worth pursuing. But I hope I don't rouse hippothanatophobia (fear of a man beating a dead horse--can someone make that Greek more elegant?) by picking up on part of his introductory comments, the suggestion that Aeneas exits through the gate of falsa insomnia not because the Roman Empire is a nightmare, but because the underworld journey is a fiction: in real life, nobody goes to hell and lives to tell about it. On this reading, the ivory gate is the literary equivalent of a wink. This is attractive in many ways, but problematic in how it deals both with the Homeric model from which Vergil draws the notion of the gates, and witb the flow of Vergil's Latin. Latin first. David's notion requires that falsa mean fictional but not deceptive, false, or untrue in terms of underlying content. But in the lines: altera candenti perfecta nitens elephanto, 895 sed falsa ad caelum mittunt insomnia Manes. this reading is hard to square with sed. The gate of falsa insomnia is said to be shining and gleaming, BUT it sends falsa insomnia. I don't see how fictional but true dreams would be sufficiently adversative to the shining ivory. I'd expect the gate is shiny, AND sends fictional (but true) dreams. There is no such problem with the gate is shiny, BUT sends false/deceptive/lying dreams. Homer next: Penelope in Odyssey 19 dreams of a eagle that has killed her geese, which then speaks to her and says it's her husband, who has come home to kill the suitors. Penelope then says there are two gates of dreams, one for false dreams, one for true dreams, and she says she fears her dream is a false dream. Does this mean she thinks it's fitcional, but basically true, as in David's reading of Vergil's falsa insomnia? I don't think so: since eagles don't talk to women much in real life, it's clear that her dream is fictional, but by false she means that what the dream says will not come true: that her husband will not come home to kill the suitors. If she thought her dream was fictional (talking eagle) but had valid content (O will come home), surely she would have called it a true dream. So I can't get myself to accept reading falsa insomnia as fictional dreams the truth value of whose content is not being called into question. Falsa insomnia are dreams that do not say true things, in Homer and I think in Vergil. What this means for Vergil is not easy to say. Certainly Aeneas is in some way associated with false dreams. Exactly how he is is not really specified. Sorry to be wordy; it's hard to be concise in haste. -- Jim O'Hara Paddison Professor of Latin 206B Howell Hall phone: (919) 962-7649 fax: (919) 962-4036 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.unc.edu/~oharaj surface mail: James J. O'Hara Department of Classics CB# 3145, 101 Howell Hall The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3145 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?
James Butrica wrote: The other gate is explicitly the exit for uerae umbrae: Aeneas is not a uera umbra or any kind of umbra at all, and presumably therefore cannot take this route and must therefore take the only alternative. I've never understood this argument. What is it about the gate of true dreams that means that ONLY true dreams can go through it, while the gate of false dreams is such that non-dreams can go through it? Didn't Aeneas cross the river in a boat made only for shades? While that other exit might be used by false dreams, Aeneas is real in this poem, not a dream or a shade. And under what circumstances could we conceive of Manes (which ones? all of them?) converting Aeneas from human to dream and then sending him out not as a true dream but as a false one? I agree with part of the sentiment here: Aeneas is not literally changed into a false dream before using the gate (Captain, we have to reconfigure your human DNA using the transporter's pattern buffer before we can send you through this Eikonian portal), because there is no statement made that only false dreams can use this gate. I repeat my claim that the only secure thing we can say is that Aeneas is somehow associated with false dreams. This modest claim, that he is associated with false dreams, is one I think that cannot be denied. Those who say that Aeneas is a false dream in some sense are both drawing a conclusion from a hint of Vergil's, and also speaking metaphorically. Others think the false dreams with which Aeneas is associated are the visions of Rome's future he has scene, a not unreasonable reading, one also involving a litte leap, since the viewer of that future and not the future scenes themselves are sent through the gates (Zetzel in TAPA for 1989 actually discusses this reading as working like a type of enallage--like a tranferred epithet) -- Jim O'Hara Paddison Professor of Latin 206B Howell Hall phone: (919) 962-7649 fax: (919) 962-4036 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.unc.edu/~oharaj surface mail: James J. O'Hara Department of Classics CB# 3145, 101 Howell Hall The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3145 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Herculaneum manuscripts
Here is a note from the Classics List in 1994 about Herculaneum texts of Lucretius and Ennius: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 From: Michael Haslam Subject: Re: NewishEnniusFrag? Jim O'Hara asks about the Ennius papyrus. It was at the International Congress of Papyrologists in Cairo, in September 1989, that Prof. Knut Kleve gave a paper in which he announced the discovery not only of Lucretius but also of Ennius among the Herculaneum papyri. This was in a session devoted to the Herculaneum papyri, attended almost exclusively by Italians. He said there were some 20-odd fragments in the Ennius bunch, all so badly damaged that the nature of the text had earlier been unclear, but now they were recognized as hexameters; he assigned them to Annales bk.6, relating them to the war with Pyrrhus. Though it didn't make much of a splash, this for me was the most exciting event of the Congress (I exclude extra-Congress activities), I stood up and said so, also urged him to consult immediately with the then ailing Otto Skutsch. (I gather that he did, and I'd dearly like to know what Skutsch made of it: someone may know, I don't.) Kleve showed a slide of his transcripts of the two biggest bits (both broken on all sides), which I copied and distributed to colleagues on my return to UCLA a few days later. Kleve published the Lucretius (or alleged Lucretius: there seems room for doubt to me) in the Cronache Ercolanesi 19, 1989, 5-27, the Ennius (or alleged Ennius--but the attribution seems good to me) ib. 20, 1990 (I think: I don't have precise ref. to hand). All this is now some years old. -- Jim O'Hara Paddison Professor of Latin 206B Howell Hall (919) 962-7649 fax: (919) 962-4036 [EMAIL PROTECTED] James J. O'Hara Department of Classics CB# 3145, 101 Howell Hall The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3145 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: more on Herculaneum, including Latin
See a story at http://cpart.byu.edu/bottom_herc.html on new techniques for unraveling Herculaneum scrolls, including this statment by BYU chair of Classics Roger Macfarlane (whose colleague has come up with the method): When the texts were first brought to light, there was a little disappointment as scholars were looking for the Aristotle texts and other texts that we know existed but we've lost, says Macfarlane, who is working with Kleve to read one of the Latin Herculaneum scrolls. But the possibility still remains that the Herculaneum villa has for us complete texts of Aristotle or Sappho or Alcaeus or of several other Greek and Latin authors whose works have only survived in fragments or not at all, he says. There is another similar story, from Feb 2001, but perhaps with some confusion about which manuscripts scholars would like to find and what they've actually found, at http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=55573 -- Jim O'Hara Paddison Professor of Latin 206B Howell Hall (919) 962-7649 fax: (919) 962-4036 [EMAIL PROTECTED] James J. O'Hara Department of Classics CB# 3145, 101 Howell Hall The University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3145 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, Roman Study
At 09:55 PM 7/30/00 -0400, david connor wrote: There's a fine new poem by Louise Gluck entitled Roman Study that makes some subtle points about Virgil and I'd be curious to hear some reactions to it. It can be read at the Barnes Noble website under her name. David, do you have a more precise URL for this poem? I checked the BN web site and didn't find anything. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, c. Roman Study is a poem in the 1999 volume Vita Nova, which bn has at http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G X12V5mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34Disbn=0880016345 ((note that a long url like this might get split up funny by your e-mail; delete any extra spaces. or just go to bn and search for Gluck and Vita Nova; then click on read a chapter)) The site actually lets you read part of the book, including the poem mentioned, and another called THE QUEEN OF CARTHAGE: http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G X12V5mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34Disbn=0880016345display only=chapter --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Aug 07 09:03:44 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: Return-path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id [EMAIL PROTECTED] for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 7 Aug 2000 04:56:13 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id CAA24894; Mon, 07 Aug 2000 02:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:58:29 +0100 From: Helen Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, Roman Study In-reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host mail1.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.192] claimed to be mail.iol.ie Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you have a publisher, ISBN for this book? HCOB From: Jim O'Hara [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:52:27 +0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, Roman Study At 09:55 PM 7/30/00 -0400, david connor wrote: There's a fine new poem by Louise Gluck entitled Roman Study that makes some subtle points about Virgil and I'd be curious to hear some reactions to it. It can be read at the Barnes Noble website under her name. David, do you have a more precise URL for this poem? I checked the BN web site and didn't find anything. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, c. Roman Study is a poem in the 1999 volume Vita Nova, which bn has at http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G X12V5mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34Disbn=0880016345 ((note that a long url like this might get split up funny by your e-mail; delete any extra spaces. or just go to bn and search for Gluck and Vita Nova; then click on read a chapter)) The site actually lets you read part of the book, including the poem mentioned, and another called THE QUEEN OF CARTHAGE: http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4EV9G X12V5mscssid=CAALERVWD3S92GSH001PQU6AVWPAC34Disbn=0880016345display only=chapter --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Aug 07 09:46:14 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: Return-path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id
Re: VIRGIL: bib. help: enclosed apposition article?
Q: Could someone help me with a bibliographical reference? I'm trying to remember an article not too many years ago on the enclosed appositional structure such as raucae, tua cura, palumbes in Eclogue 1, ... James J. O'Hara Jim O'Hara A: [J. Solodow,] HSCP 90 (1986) 129-153. James Lawrence Peter Butrica Many thanks! And look (so to speak), I have that volume here in the office already. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Emotions
M W Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Aeneas' experience is presented in terms of divine intervention, but in V divine intervention can always be explained - at least approximately! - in naturalistic terms. (V all but comments on this feature of his narrative at IX, 185. Very strong arguments against this claim in Denis Feeney, Gods in Epic, V. chapter and elsewhere. V. plays with the idea in Nisus' words at 9.185. but does hand us the answer. James J. O'Hara Jim O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies and Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 Middletown CT 06459-0146 fax: 860/685-2089 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: lost verses
book one of spenser's faerie queene begins with four lines supposed to be imitative of verses found at the beginning of some medieval and renaissance editions of _the aeneid_: Lo I the man, whose Muse whilome did maske, As time her taught, in lowly Shepheards weeds, Am now enforst a far unfitter taske. For trumpets sterne to chaunge mine Oaten reeds... does anybody know anything about this? based on my superior understanding of _the aeneid_ (grin), i cannot believe that anything like these lines belong to V. love from, -m.spencer These Latin lines exist (see below); for the view that they are not by V. cf Horsfall Companion to V p. 24 with bib (there is also an EJ Kenney article somewhere); I think there may be arguments in favor in Koster, Severin: Ille ego qui. Dichter zwischen Wort und Macht. Erlangen 1988 (Erlanger Forschungen A, 42). At http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~joef/cnh/a/01/1-11.html you can find some of the old Conington-Nettleship commentary, which says 1.] Arma virumque cano, Troiae qui primus ab oris This line is preceded in some MSS. by the following verses, Ille ego, qui quondam gracili modulatus avena Carmen et egressus silvis vicina coegi Ut quamvis avido parerent arva colono, Gratum opus agricolis: at nunc horrentia Martis They are not found in Med., Rom., Gud. Or the Verona fragments (Pal. and the fragments of Vat. and St. Gall seem to fail here), and the only MS. in Ribbeck's list which contains them (the Berne MS. No. 172) has them written in the margin by a later hand. They appear to have existed in the time of Suetonius, who says (Vita Vergilii 42) that Nisus the grammarian had heard a story of their having been expunged by Tucca and Varius; on which Heyne remarks, Si res ita se habet, acutior sane Varius Vergilio fuit. [Suetonius, it should be remembered, is a poor authority on matters of criticism; he has no difficulty, for instance, in accepting the Culex as genuine. Ti. Donatus knows nothing of these four lines. --H. N.] Those who speak of them as an introduction to the poem, forget that if genuine they are an integral part of the first sentence; and that it is, to say the least, remarkable that the exordium should be so constructed as to be at once interwoven with the context and yet capable of removal without detriment to the construction, just at the point which forms a much better commencement. The words arma virumque are quoted by Martial, 8. 56., 19. 14. 185. 2, and Auson. Epig. 137.1, evidently as a real commencement of the Aeneid while Ovid, Trist. 2. 533, and Persius 1. 96, quote arma virumque, or arma virum, as important and independent words, which they cease to be the moment arma is viewed in connexion with the words supposed to precede it. [The words arma virumque -- litora, are quoted in an inscription (Corpus Inscr. Lat., vol. 2, No. 4967, 31) assigned by Hubner to the first century A.D. Arma virumque cano has also been found scribbled on the walls of Pompeii. --H. N.] Virg. himself, 9. 777, has (of the poet Clytius) Semper equos atque arma virum pugnasque canebat. Comp. also Ov. 1 Amor. 15. 26, Prop. 3. 26. 63, which point the same way. Macrob. Sat. 5. 2 quotes Troiae qui primus ab oris as part of the first verse of the Aeneid. On the other hand Priscian 940 P cites Ille ego qui quondam gracili modulatus avena as Virg.'s. Henry's view that arma Martis is happily contrasted with arma agricolae (comp. G. 1. 160) seems to be favoured by the structure of the sentence, and may very possibly have been present to the mind of the author of these lines; but it clearly was not present to the minds of those who quoted arma by itself as war. Tastes may differ as to the rival commencements, on which see Henry in loco, and on 2.247; but it may be suggested that Virg. would scarcely in his first sentence have divided the attention of the reader between himself and his hero by saying, in effect, that the poet who wrote the Eclogues and the Georgics, sings the hero who founded Rome. [It should be added that supposing the Aeneid to have begun with arma virumque cano, the first seven lines of the poem will be found to correspond strikingly in rhythm with the first seven lines of the Iliad. Did Ennius begin his poem with arma? Horace 1 Epist. 19. 7, Ennius ipse pater nunquam nisi potus ad arma Prosiluit dicenda. --H. N.] Wagn. and Forb., however, as well as Henry, consider the lines as genuine; and they have been imitated by Spenser in the opening of the Faery Queene, and Milton in the opening of Paradise Regained. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html
Re: VIRGIL: Gender in the Georgics
From: Ika Willis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am currently researching a paper on gender issues in the Georgics, [...] This is all extremely simplistic, obviously. But if anyone can recommend any reading for me, or has any comments or suggestions about the issue, please get in touch. In Martindale, Charles. The Cambridge Companion to Vergil. Cambridge. 1997 try Oliensis, Ellen. Sons and Lovers. Sexuality and Gender in Virgil's Poetry. In Martindale (1997) 294-311 Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Another Virgilius Maro?
. and its American use as a first name is exemplified by (5) the composer Virgil Thomson, and (7) a television character in McHale's Navy. Are there any others, I wonder? Best wishes Peter JVD BRYANT Perth Western Australia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nine major-league baseball players, eight born 1894-1917, and one in the 20's, have been named Virgil: From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Sep 23 10:31:04 1999 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: From mantovano-returns Wed Sep 22 15:12:53 1999 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA00471; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:09:31 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: More Vergils References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 4.01 5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: 248a75c9f13094635017f5b01f0eaaec Status: U In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] edu, RANDI C ELDEVIK [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Yes, I have to acknowledge that those hillbilly associations do exist, in the U.S. context; the same for the name Homer, unfortunately. But I don't know how that came about, and I wish I knew. Homer and Virgil are my two favorite poets, but if I had wanted to name my son in honor of one or both of them, my husband would have rebelled--understandably, given the U.S. ambience. What's the British attitude? Doesn't anyone there give the name Homer or Virgil to their son? After all, one meets Englishmen named Terence, etc. Can't say I've ever come across or heard of a British 'Homer' or 'Virgil', high, low, or middle class. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Re: Aeneas' 'greatest labour' ?
Possibly the idea of the second half of the Aenied being described as Vergil's 'greater labour' is to do with the struggle of Aeneas in fighting the violence and anger (furor)of others with his strengthened pietas. Before his visit to the underworld in Book 6, Aeneas was unable to look forward clearly, he was too concerned with founding a 'New Troy'. He is given insight into a prosperous Roman future and emerges more confident and mature. In books 1-6 Aeneas has to battle with his pietas, which he is famed for and the furor which is brewing within himself. Despair and confusion often trigger outbursts of furor, but after the revelations in Hades Aeneas becomes more rational. The task for Aeneas in books 7-12 is to use his strengthened pietas against the furor of others on the battlefield. This is the ultimate test, if he can emerge as the victor then it is a truly a heroic achievement. What do others think of this point I have raised? Are Aeneas' actions at the end of the epic fit to be called pious? Is his killing of Turnus justified, and if so what does this say about pietas? I would appreciate any responses, as I find this topic of great interst. Sarah. Interesting ideas, but I offer more questions: What is the textual evidence for Aeneas being more confident and mature after returning from the underworld? Why does Anchises point out to Aeneas in the underworld the son he will have in old age? Why does Aeneas exit the underworld through the gate of false dreams? How does the start of Book 8, where Aeneas can't sleep because he is as fitful as Medea was after meeting Jason, fit into the idea of Aeneas being more confident? In what way is he more rational in 7-12 (esp. 10) than in 1-6? Where is 1-6 do we see that Despair and confusion often trigger outbursts of furor? Maybe only in 2? Is furor more characteristic of Aeneas in 1-6 or 7-12 (esp. 10, 12)? Does Aeneas understand what's going on with Juno in 7-12 any more than he did in 1-6? In 7-12, does Aeneas merely have to fight against the furor of others, or must he also fight to contain his own furor? Does Aeneas fight against others using his pietas against their furor, or does he mainly use swords and spears? What happens when a man devoted to pietas is faced with conflicting loyalties, claims, and duties? Why is Aeneas described as furiis incensus et ira terribilis and as fervidus when he kills Turnus? Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: (NOT) paid for propaganda?
Leofranc Holford-Strevens responds to Philip Thibodeau (very nice post!) with some more interesting points: But why can't the patrons ever be sophisticated enough to appreciate it [i.e. surprisingly unpanegyrical panegyric], and to see that it did them more good than the uninspired panegyric? Sure. And patrons, esp. those as fiercely intelligent as Augustus, are sometimes smart enough to appreciate poetry that contains criticism (both constructive and not), equivocation, ambivalence, and doubt. [...] Vergil's and Horace's panegyrics can have the same over-the-top character (cf. the prologue to the first Georgic and H's Cleopatra Ode.) Is the Cleopatra ode over the top? Not nearly as much as Ode 1.2; but it is significant that these poems, like the Georgic prologue, seem to be from early in the reign. Perhaps Augustus dropped a hint that he would rather not be assassinated by people thinking he wanted to be a Hellenistic god-king, thank you very much. This perhaps offers a not-impossible scenario, but we must beware the pernicious ease with which these kinds of musings about Augustus' relationship with Vergil or Horace have become dogma that is then used in a most circular fashion to read specific Augustan influence on this or that passage or poem. Watch for Richard Thomas' forthcoming book on the history of Vergilians scholarship for some great examples of this. Hasn't Ovid recently been represented as an ultra-loyalist whose loyalty was not appreciated? Sure: first by Ovid himself, then more recently by some scholars not too comfortable with anything but the surface of a poem. Anyone who could read Met. 1 and 15 and think of O. as an ultra-loyalist has a very different set of equipment between the ears than I do. If Perhaps Augustus dropped a hint that he would rather not be assassinated by people thinking he wanted to be a Hellenistic god-king, thank you very much, Ovid clearly was not cc'ed on that memo. Great stuff on (I know I'm going to summarize this poorly) the fine line Ovid walks in terms of criticism of Augustus, and dramatization within the Met of the dangers of disbelief or resistance, in an important study of O's Met by Stephen Wheeler, forthcoming from UPenn press. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Lost poem
Dear List, I am trying to find a poem Virgil wrote regarding I believe Peripus I copied it down in the museum at Ephesus, however my notebook was stolen. ... Gary Glazner Could Peripus be Periplus the Latin spelling of the Greek word periplous or sailing by and refer either to Vergil's description of Aeneas' sail past the coast of Sicily near the end of Book 3, or to some real or imagined poem by that name? Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Re: the death of young warriors
Could someone on this list help me locate what has been written about the death of young warriors as a motif in Roman literature? Thanks. D.Markus. Petrini, Mark, The child and the hero: coming of age in Catullus and Vergil (Ann Arbor, 1997) (Nisus Euryalus, Marcellus, Pallas, Ascanius; plus Troilus in Book 1) Hardie, P.R. Virgil: Aeneid Book IX (Cambridge 1994) is also pretty good on this topic, in his intro and in his commentary on the Nisus and Euryalus passage Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: quote
Note that this is the motto of the well-known Achilles Track Club, which has disabled athletes who e.g. compete in wheelchairs in marathons like the New York City and Bsoton marathons Try Aeneid 5, line 231:Possunt quia posse videntur. On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Jon Mason wrote: does anyone know where virgil writes: They can because they think they can. I'd really like to find that quote! Thanks. _ Jon A. Mason Rapporteur Master of International Affairs Modern Japan Seminar Columbia University East Asian Institute Home phone: 212-665-5518 9th Floor School Phone: 212-854-5424 420 W. 118th St. School Fax: 212-854-5780 New York, NY 10023 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]USA _ --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: writing amongst the ancients
To follow up on Don Fowler's recent learned posts on books and readers: if you follow the link in Don's sig file to his home page at http://jesus.ox.ac.uk/~dpf/ you will see that he is finishing a book provisionally titled 'Unrolling the Text: Books and Readers in Latin Poetry' and that he has a separate home page on the past and future of the book at http://www.jesus.ox.ac.uk/~dpf/book.html Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Is rap music the future of epic poetry
Cf., on the similarities between epic flyting or abusive verbal contests (Diomedes, you're not the man your dad was) and the modern urban African-American dozens or sounding, cf. Richard Martin, The Language of Heroes 65ff and Henry Louis Gates Jr The Signifying Monkey eg. pp. 68ff. Cf. too the back and forth insults at the start of Ecl. 3 with the rap insult singing contest in the Kid n Play movie House Party. (P.S.: where is there a flying contest in the Iliad? Only in a recent CW review of Martin student Hillary Mackie's book Talking Trojan, where an overeager proofreader has falsely corrected the phrase flyting contest into flying contest) Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: virgil and augustus/result of aeneid
At 02:06 PM 10/14/98 -0700, you wrote: i am having problems finding information on the relationship between augustus and virgil and the affects of the aeneid on the political platform of the time. D W-O said: : On the relationship between poet and patron, you might (if you haven't already) look at Peter White, Promised Verse. On the impact of the Aeneid on Augustan politics (a welcome change from our usual discussions of the impact of Augustan politics on the Aeneid), I think Karl Galinsky's comments on the parade of Roman worthies, the death of Turnus, and the Forum of Augustus are a good place to start; see Augustan Culture, 206, 210-12. Not all would agree that Galinsky Augustan Culture 210 is a good place to start on the death of Turnus, since there is not even a hint there that there that the killing of Turnus might be viewed as more complicated than simply a justified act of vengeance that has both a personal and a public dimension. For some of the complexities of pietas, public, and private here, see e.g. Lyne, R.O.A.M., Vergil and the Politics of War, CQ 33 (1983) 188-203, repr. Harrison, S.J, Oxford Readings in Vergil's Aeneid (Oxford 1990). From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (KIMBERLY ANN SANTORA) said: All I know is that augustus asked him to write it Not really shown by any evidence to be true. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: author[ity] of Anchises' Stoicism?
Can someone save us by showing that Vergilian usage permits 'his . . . dictis' to be read back across 'Sunt . . . Manes' to the reported speech of 'exim . . . laborem'? Leofranc Holford-Strevens No solution from me, but just the news that an article by a couple of European (Swedish? can't remember; sorry) scholars is forthcoming or out in Eranos focusing on the problem of his dictis, which they claim cannot be saved, and offering a radical solution, something like cutting the whole gates passage I think (they sent me it a while ago in proof), or moving it to the tree of dreams etc at the start of the Underworld journey. Not a solution I like, but they do survey the problem to which L H-S learnedly points. I think they survey 'his dictis' in V; I'd prefer to have a study of hic, haec hoc in V friends. To return to the orginal D W-O post, which said something like If V had wanted to give his opinion through one character, Anchises would he a great choice. (Poor paraphrase of elegant words, I know) I would stress that this is a huge, even humungous, if. V's view of things is accessible from his whole poem, and the interaction of all his charcters' words. James J. O'Hara Jim O'Hara Professor of Classical StudiesClassical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 Middletown CT 06459-0146 fax: 860/685-2089 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: nemo Hercule, nemo
Culpa rubet vultus meus[...] JLB Don't worry. Someday we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny. (Bruce Springsteen, Rosalita from the Wild, the Innocent, and the E-Street Shuffle ca 1972.) James J. O'Hara Jim O'Hara Professor of Classical StudiesClassical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 Middletown CT 06459-0146 fax: 860/685-2089 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Augustus and Vergil
I'm am working on a research paper that hopes to arrive at some conclusion that relates Augustus patronage of Vergil to the Aeneid. My feeling is that one of the purposes of writing the Aeneid was so that the Romans could feel good about themselves, and also that Augustus would be able to take and maintain control of the empire. I see the Aeneid as being a powerful tool of Augustine Propoganda. My paper also seeks to relate other works of literature in more modern times to political issues (ex: _Uncle_Tom's_Cabin_ and the issue of slavery). Any comments, suggestions, of direction towards research materials would be GREATLY appreciated. Lotsa good stuff, but most of it pointing away from the direction in which you're headed, in White, Peter, Promised verse : poets in the society of Augustan Rome. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University Press, 1993. James J. O'Hara Jim O'Hara Professor of Classical StudiesClassical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 Middletown CT 06459-0146 fax: 860/685-2089 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body.
