Re: VIRGIL: someone take me off this list
Dear Nat, I am sure the majordomo will take you off the list. I am sorry to hear that you will not be able to receive email for a long time. I hope that you will still be able to read Vergil - and possibly Homer too. They were there before email. All the best. Yours, yn > From: "Nat Calloway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: VIRGIL: someone take me off this list > Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:17:04 -0400 > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > I feel like such a loser as I hate the people that post messages to ask > people to take them off the list but this is really my only option. I will > nolonger be able to send or read recieved e-mail from this address after > today for a very long time. I hope this doesn't upset anyone. > > Nat > > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: THE MODERN EPIC HERO
Dear Mantovanists, somebody suggested the hero of the film noir as the modern epic hero. I would tend to agree with the general line, but would suggest James Bond - the James Bond of the novels rather than of the films. Yours, yn Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas as a trusted leader
Roman Nisbet, thou that singest etc. yn > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:16:11 +0100 > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas as a trusted leader > From: "D P Nelis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > There is a very good article by Roman Nisbet (in the Bulletin of the > Institute of Classical Studies or in the Proceedings of the Virgil Society?) > on Aeneas as a Roman imperator. > Francis Cairns in his Virgil's Augustan Epic discusses Aeneas in the light > of kingship theory, i.e. he embodies the qualities (listed by Cairns) of an > ideal king. > D.P. Nelis > -- > >From: JAMES C Wiersum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: VIRGIL: Aeneas as a trusted leader > >Date: Tue, Apr 13, 1999, 19:43 > > > > > I'm a bicyclist and on my days off I do some long rides and some > >"long" thinking. It came to me one day pushing up a hill that Aeneas is > >presented differently from other leaders. If you take the supreme > >paradigm, "The Iliad," Agamemnon is not a trusted leader; Agamemnon is > >criticized in numerous ways; Agamemnon's troops are a divided bunch when > >it comes to his decisions. Aeneas, though, is trusted -- or so it > >seems.There does not appear to be a Thersites in the Aeneid. > > If Aeneas is "driven by fate," his followers are driven by > >Aeneas. They seem to follow where he goes without ever questioning. > >Aeneas, as far as I can tell, is never criticized. Virgil departs here > >from the Homeric pattern. I find this curious. I find this very thought > >provoking. > > I would like to know what the rest of you think in regards to how > >Aeneas is presented as a leader. I would like to know what the rest of > >you think as to why Virgil presented Aeneas in this way. Is Aeneas' > >leadership presented by Virgil as a new kind of leadership? Why do > >Aeneas' followers follow him with so much trust? > > > >James C. Wiersum > > > >___ > >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >--- > >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > > ------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Why is Aeneas like Berenice's lock?
Could you be thinking of : Gutzwiller, Kathryn "Callimachus' Lock of Berenice: Fantasy, Romance, and Propaganda" AJPh 113.3 (1992) 359 ? Yours, yn > Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:54:42 -0500 (EST) > From: "Jim O'Hara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Much of the rest of the argument, about sorrow etc., is good. Where have I > read about how the queen laments the absence of her brother/lover-husband, > and that Catullus elsewhere laments the loss of his brother and the > (different type of) loss of his lover? Clausen? Scott? > > > Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara > Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University > 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 > Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
Dear List, about the message below from L. H-S, I'll stick my neck out again: Yes, I think there is a point to the Horace "misquotation" of Cicero and I think it might meet the description of "facetiae": it is my contention (not mine really, I just mean I agree with those who have said it) that Augustus "adopted" Cicero when he wanted to be seen as a good republican. The term "princeps" he found in Cicero's de re publica. Both Cicero and Augustus were "pater patriae". Catiline is a prominent figure amongst the miscreants on Aeneas' shield. On 13 September 30 Cicero's son was made consul suffectus, so as to be in a position to announce the defeat and death of Antony in Rome. So, I would say that the Horace quotation was a gentle political allusion. Horace is saying "we know, Augustus, that you are the new Cicero, qua political thinker and qua saviour of the state; qua poet, I would be a new but equally bungling Cicero if I were to try to write your praises". And since I have stuck my head above the parapet, I shall leave it there a while: Just before the passage quoted by L.H-S, Horace, addressing Augustus and contrasting Vergil and Varius , Augustus' poets, with Choerilus, Alexander's poet, and contrasting the written with the visual arts writes: at neque dedecorant tua de se iudicia atque munera quae multa dantis cum laude tulerunt dilecti tibi Vergilius Variusque poetae; nec magis expressi uultus per aenea signa quam per uatis opus mores animique uirorum clarorum apparent. There are some who will say that AENEA SIGNA just happens to sound like AENEAS, the hero of Vergil's poem and avatar of Augustus. Of their number I am not. I shall now take cover. Yours, yn - > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 18:08:42 + > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Indeed; there is a parallel in Horace's _recusatio_ to Augustus at > _Epist._ 2.1/250-7: I would much rather write an epic in your honour > than these earth-bound _sermones_ if I had the talent. > > nec sermones ego mallem 250 > repentes per humum quam res componere gestas > terrarumque situs et flumina dicere et arces > montibus impositas et barbara regna tuisque > auspiciis totum confecta duella per orbem > claustraque custodem pacis cohibentia Ianum 255 > et formidatam Parthis te principe Romam, > si quantum cuperem possem quoque. > > Hands up anyone who can say what verse 255 reminds him or her off. Yes, > that's right, Cicero's infamous line > > O fortunatam natam me consule Romam. > > Subversion? A sly but friendly jest? Inadvertence? Or was _O fortunatam_ > not yet the stock example of bad verse it had become by Silver times? > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Why is Aeneas like Berenice's lock?
Dear List, many years ago I wrote a brief note for Latomus: "Caesaries Berenices (or, the Hair of the God)", Latomus, 41 (1982) 101-3. I discovered after it had appeared in print that a number of my observations had already caught the eye of the lynx-like Agatha Thornton. But obviously both she and I wasted our sweat if this is still thought to be a joke, nearly twenty years later!! Yours, yn I have never met Agatha Thornton, but I have over the years come across examples of her work with pleasure, and if she reads this list I would like to apologise to her for not acknowledging her work in the above article. Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: References to Augustus
Dear Jacqueline, do not doubt but that there are none although people keep seeing them, like UFOs and the Loch Ness monster. Yours, yn --- > Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 07:15:17 -0600 > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: VIRGIL: References to Augustus > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:31:37 +1100 > From: jacqueline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hello, I'm rather interested to hear what people think about the > references to Augustus in the Aeneid, focussing on any insults, such as > Aeneas' treatment of Dido, his behaviour to Turnus and so on. Could you > send any ideas you hear of? > Thanks a lot. > > :) - Jacqueline > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Helen's Abduction
Although no-one has actually said it, it will be clear from the variety of responses and the reference to various authors that there is no one "Helen"; each author was and is free to "interpret" the character "Helen" as he/she sees fit. However, the most interesting (because ambiguous and many-sided) view of Helen's "response" to Menelaos, to Paris and to sexual passion and family life is Homer's Iliad, the episode of the single combat in Books 2,3,4. There we see the power of beauty, male and female, and of sexual attraction studied in a masterly way in a variety of contexts including the old men on the wall and Priam himself. There the power of Aphrodite is shown for what it is - not something to be trifled with. And that portrayal of Helen is set right beside - not contrasted - with the portrait of Andromache that follows. Rebecca and her girls, if they have not read those passages of the Iliad, truly have a treat in store! yn > From: "Rebecca Smyth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Helen's Abduction > Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:49:31 PST > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Salvete! > > Thank you all for your comments and insight. I am most grateful for > your help and I'm certain that my girls will also apreciate it; I'm > looking forward to my next class with them and an exciting discussion. > I would definitely enjoy reading the speech which Georgias wrote: thank > you in advance for forwarding it to me. > > I shall turn now to Homer, Euripides and Ovid and investigate this > matter further. > > I'm thoroughly enjoying teaching our heritage, particularly with such > marvellous discussions from interested students. > > Thank you, again, for providing me with further questions and ideas to > put to my students. > > Rebecca Smyth > > > > > __ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Moral values in Aeneid
Sex is bad, unless, as in the case of Nisus and Euryalus, it promotes the military ethic - oh yes, or unless it is for the procreation of Julian children. yn - > From: "aa 0011" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: VIRGIL: Moral values in Aeneid > Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 01:17:15 PST > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Are there any values and moral assumptions Virgil wanted to promote > through the Aeneid? Aeneas' Piety and devotion to his people are two, > are there anything else? > > Thanks for the answers in advance. > > > > __ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Briquel
Dear List,
a search For Briquel in REL [Revue des Etudes Latines] recently
produces:
Briquel, Dominique
"Les Etrusques et l'Europe"
REL 70 (1992)
24-27
-+-
Briquel, Dominique
"Virgile et les Aborigenes"
REL 70 (1992)
69-91
-+-
Briquel, Dominique
"Pastores Aboriginum (Justin 38, 67): a la
recherche d'une historiographie grecque
anti-romaine disparue"
REL 73 (1995)
44-59
-+-
Briquel, Dominique
"Le taureau sur les monnaies des insurges
de la guerre sociale: a la recherche d'un
symbole pour l'Italie"
REL 74 (1996)
108-125
-+-
Yours,
yn
Yvan Nadeau
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0131-650-3575
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Re: VIRGIL: Re: the death of young warriors
I seem to remember that this is one of the things discussed in the great Knauer tome. Yours, yn > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:04:21 -0500 > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: Donka Markus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: VIRGIL: Re: the death of young warriors > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > This is a change of subject. I wonder about the killing of young warriors > by older and experienced ones. This seems to have been the most difficult > case to assess on the scale of heroism. Pallas, Lausus, and then > Turnus...The death of the young warrior seems to have been a point of > interest to Romans (after all, in the Iliad, Patroclos is the older guy, > although on the surface his death leads to Hector's death as the death of > Pallas leads to Turnus' death). > Could someone on this list help me locate what has been written about the > death of young warriors as a motif in Roman literature? Thanks. D.Markus. > > > >The discussion of the oak tree simile has been very thought provoking. At > >times I have wondered if I always look to the lofty only, sacrificing > >attention to the simple or for lack of a better expression the more human. > >Along with all the other ideas about the oak simile might we consider the > >strength and guidance Aeneas has always gotten from Anchises, who of course > >resides in the underworld at this point of the story, and remember as well > >Augustus' hope to restore"the custom of our ancestors" to include familial > >piety as well as piety to one's patria.Please pardon the cliche but Aeneas > >is well grounded - due to and for all the right reasons. > > > >--- > >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Heroes in Odyssey/Vergil
Dear Susanne, of course, we agree with what you say. But if the web has any use at all - and there are those who doubt it - one of those uses might be to expose questing individuals to bibliographies or ideas that exceed the bounds of stick-in-the-mud (that word being a compliment) teachers. Would you not agree? Yours, yn - -- > Judy, > > I hate being the bitch of the discussion list, but the point of an essay > assignment is to teach the student to go to the library and find the > relevant literature herself. > > Similar requests have been appearing on other discussion lists as well, > most of which have adopted the policy of silently ignoring them. Sometimes, > helpfulness can be counterproductive. > > Susanne Hafner > Universitaet Hamburg > > > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: heroism in Aeneid
Dear Judy, this is probably totally daft and will earn you a bad mark from your teachers, who are, one may assume, very traditional and stick-in-the- mud in their attitudes (stick-in-the-mud is a virtue, by the way), but I would have thought a good place to start would be the description of Achilles' shield in Homer compared with the description of Aeneas' shield in the Aeneid. yn > I guess one should concentrate on where the difficulties of heroism come > out most noticeably, namely in the deaths of Hector and Turnus and how the > 'heroic' values of their killers differ or are similar. Obviously, Aeneas > is more problematic with his cold-blooded vengeance, but Achilles' abuse of > Hector's body raises questions about the heroic model too. > Virgil mainatins the ambiguity most brilliantly by leaving us with that > image in the final lines, while Achilles' reconciliation with Priam somehow > resolves what went wrong, though not entirely > > -- > > From: judy weng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: VIRGIL: heroism in Aeneid > > Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 10:18 PM > > > > > > Can anyone please help me with my essay? The question is that "How do > > Homer and Vergil maintain the ambiguity of traditional heroism? What > > effect does it have?" > > Please reply me as soon as possible because my paper is due 11/9, any > > short answer or idea will be helpful. > > Thank you > > > > Sincerely, > > Judy > > > > __ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > --- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Women in Virgil
Also Apollonius Rhodius' Medea for his portrait of Dido. yn > I am rather curious of his alluding to the homeric poems with his > characterization of women. He seems to use Kalypso and Penelope a lot in > his poems. If anyone has any thoughts on this let me know > > jennifer > > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Re: Translations in English
The message below was posted by a body that calls itself "The Oracle". Could we have a sample of the mistranslations, please. As someone who was taught a bit of Latin by David West, I would be absolutely fascinated, and the Mantovanists would be shown justification for the Oracle's statement. I know of an oracle that once proclaimed that the Great Pan was dead. Yours, yn > > Yes I liked the West translation, its very straightforward and > accesible, but frankly there are some mis-translations in it that are > unbelievable. Especially of individual words where the word chosen seems > to entirely alter the meaning of the sentence, for no obvious reason on > the part of the translator... at least thats what I found. Day-Lewis is > good too... > > __ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: RE: Panegyric, was: a question on book iv
My dear Tim, It depends on which rhetorical school you follow, doesn't it? What is a genre? When we use that term, what do we mean by it? Are "Epic" and "panegyric" really mutually exclusive terms in the way we talk about ancient literature? Who laid down that law? Is it really helpful to talk of an ancient poem as belonging to genre A rather than to genre B? That is the kind of categorisation that I have always regarded as reductionist. If instead of using the word "panegyric" I had said "poem written in support and praise of" would you have found that formulation more acceptable? Which classification, ancient or modern, defines "panegyric" as a lesser or reduced genre compared with whatever it is that Vergil announces his poem to be in its opening lines? And what DOES Vergil announce his poem to be in its opening lines? Is that more explicit than what Vergil had said in the Georgics that the Aeneid would be? OH! I had forgotten. Vergil changed his mind of course, and then he forgot to change the Georgics, and then he went and died before he burned his magnum opus. Did I say that time has no effect on the way the Aeneid is read? Is that what transcend means? I didn't think so, but am happy to stand corrected. The problem about email is that it induces action rather than reflection. I think I shall give it up. > From: "Mallon, Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To:"'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: VIRGIL: RE: Panegyric, was: a question on book iv > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:32:47 -0700 > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: Yvan Nadeau [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > if your friend meant that the Aeneid was primarily written as a > panegyric of Augustus, he was right. Which is not to say that > it > does not transcend time etc. Which is not to say that it has > nothing > to do with justice, duty, virtue, etc. etc. What is it that > you > find troublesome about Book four? > > Yours, > > yn > > > I thought that panegyric was an identifiable genre in antiquity, not > identical to epic. > > Surely the Aeneid is what its author announces it to be in the opening > lines. What is the point of a reductive reading - trying to understand a > text by reducing it to a genre of lesser value? > > As for transcending time - literature survives, does not "transcend" it. > What sort of condition has the Aeneid reached that time has no effect on > how it is read (that is how it survives, other than as text)? > > Tim > > > > > --- > > > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: a question on book iv
Dear WRHare, if your friend meant that the Aeneid was primarily written as a panegyric of Augustus, he was right. Which is not to say that it does not transcend time etc. Which is not to say that it has nothing to do with justice, duty, virtue, etc. etc. What is it that you find troublesome about Book four? Yours, yn > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:10:49 EDT > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: VIRGIL: a question on book iv > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > I recently had a conversation in which a friend said to me that he felt (i > can't bring myself to conjugate "to think" here) that Vergil subverts truth in > order to "suck up" to Augustus and play to the nationalist sentiment. I > countered with the usual arguments of duty and virtue, but these held no sway. > Can anyone give me a good apology as to why book iv does indeed transcend time > and place? I am but an amateur here, and I will say that I find book four to > be troublesome--in art and in life. Any help? > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: The Fourfold Method
Dear J.C.Wiersum, I too once attempted to understand "Darkness Visible". I am still alive. So, there is hope. Yours, yn > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:17:48 -0700 > Subject: VIRGIL: The Fourfold Method > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JAMES C Wiersum) > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Someone on the list a while back mentioned W.R. Johnson's > "Darkness Visible: A Study of Virgil's Aeneid." I discovered the book at > about the same time it was mentioned. I was wondering if someone could > help with a few things in relation to the book. > First, Johnson's use of the old "fourfold method of > interpretation" is his "stratagem against monochromatic solutions to the > Aeneid" (p. 18). Being a minister who is very involved with the > exposition of scripture, I can appreciate Johnson's stance against > "monochromatic" readings. I personally think the idea of a text having > one meaning and one meaning only is historicist in the sense of Karl > Popper's understanding of historicism. Anyway, Johnson keeps talking > about myth in the same context. He thinks poetry and myth do not go > together. He uses the fourfold method as "a good defense > against...reductive mythmaking" (p. 19). I'm at a loss to understand his > view of myth. Maybe I'm just dense. So what does Johnson mean by > "reductive mythmaking" say in relation to the Aeneid? What would that > look like? And, why according to him is it dangerous? > Second, Johnson mentions the allegorical schools: the Stoicizing > Homerists, Philo, the church fathers, the school of Chartres and Dante > down to Spencer. Can someone flesh out the allegorical schools and/or > name some books that specifically take up the history of the allegorical > schools? > Though I am a Protestant who was taught that the old fourfold > method is anathema, I have recently made sermons using the method and > been astonished at how well the method applies the text. Therefore, the > third question is, do you think Johnson is right when he says the jingle > of Nicholas of Lyra "contains the wisdom of more than a thousand years of > some of the best work in literary criticism that the west has known"? > > James C. Wiersum > > _ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You > will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe > mantovano" in the body. > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: change in subscription policy
Dear David, people will be uncivil. The recent examples on this list are not the worst - by far - of those I have seen. I have seen fully-fledged adult (!) classical scholars behave no better. I do not think you should concern yourself overmuch about the occasional outbreak of childish outbursts. I would favour people joining and leaving as they see fit. Well, that's my view. Yours, yn > Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:13:46 -0500 > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: VIRGIL: change in subscription policy > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > One of the things that attracted me to online discussion groups when I > first started using them about five years ago was the opportunity they > provided to bring amateurs and professionals together to talk about a > subject they both enjoyed. That is not something that happens often in > "meatspace." > > However, the tone of one or two recent posts has been less than civil, and > I am disappointed. I wrote to one of the recent offenders in private, > thinking to address a fourteen-year old child who was using his parents' > AOL account. I found out (or so he claimed) that this person was actually a > college student. Now THAT was disappointing. > > Obviously not everyone finds the discussion here to his taste. For some, it > will be too popular; for others too learned; for many, simply irrelevant. > If so, I hope you will have the courtesy to remember that no one forced you > to join our conversation, and leave quietly. We don't go out of our way to > criticize your interests and tastes, and we ask you to extend the same > courtesy to us. > > In the mean time, I am now thinking very seriously about changing the > subscription policy (for new subscribers only), so that subscribers must > submit a couple of sentences on why they are interested in Virgil. I don't > want to legislate what is and is not a legitimate interest, but I am > starting to think that it is just to easy to subscribe to the list. As a > species, we seek out things that come easily, but we don't value them very > highly. > > Again, let me stress that I am not trying to create a test for membership, > and I am certainly not going to require current subscribers to submit to > this foolishness. But I would like to hear what people think before I adopt > this policy. Feel free to contact me in private at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or > post your thoughts to the list under this subject heading. (Please don't > post your comments on this thread as replies to other threads; this will > allow those who just don't have time for administrivia like this to delete > these posts without opening them.) > > Yours faithfully, > David Wilson-Okamura > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > --- > David Wilson-Okamura http://www.virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] > University of ChicagoOnline Virgil discussion, bibliography & links > --- > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You > will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe > mantovano" in the body. > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Ae.IV.Dido
Dear List, I have been following the correspondence on the Dido/Aeneas affair with some fascination. It seems to me that a very complex and subtle piece of political writing is being judged with the language of the soap-opera habitue/. Somebody wrote: What is love? Tis not hereafter. Present mirth hath present laughter What's to come is still unsure In delay there lies no plenty So come kiss me sweet and twenty love's a stuff will not endure Would you say the bard was advocating cheap flings? That's one question. There are others. The involvement of the Julii with the Ptolemies (the family what Cleo belonged to) went back to the days of Cleo's papa, the flute player, who gave fabulous bribes to Julius Caesar (Augustus' dad) in order to persuade him (Julius) to restore him to his throne. Julius did that. Then, in the course of the civil war against Pompey, Julius found himself in Alexandria and started his liaison with Cleopatra (remember Elizabeth Taylor in the carpet roll? Imagine her as Dido.). They had a child who was officially designated Ptolemy No X (sorry, I have no head for numbers) but was also named Caesarion, also officially. THERE was a Julius who was a designated heir to the throne of the Ptolemies and the Pharaohs before them, and belonged to the family of the Julii Caesares. Think of the political symbol that little boy represents. Remember that when Dido says "it would be a great consolation to me if I had had a little Aeneas by you".Remember too that the party of Augustus/Octavian at the approach of the Civil War was very keen to prove that Caesarion could not possibly have been Caesar's child. Remember too that, after his victory over Antony and Cleopatra, the generous Augustus - parcere subiectis etc. - was not slow to have Caesarion assassinated. However, to come back to Caesar and Cleopatra: remember that when Julius Senior was in Rome doing all sorts of things that made the Romans fear that he might be thinking of making himself King Cleopatra was in Rome too. She was there on the Ides of March 44 BC, when the daggers were drawn. When Julius Senior built a magnificent temple to Venus Genetrix- i.e. to the family goddess, that Venus who is always protecting Aeneas and engineers Dido's love by having her son, Eros or Cupid, do things to Dido - he placed a statue of Cleopatra in that temple. It was after the assassination that Cleo left Rome to go back to Egypt. Then, when Octavian and Antony shared the world between them, it was Antony who got Egypt. That was a wise choice. Egypt was an extremely rich country. Julius had been well aware of that. However, Antony and Cleopatra were beaten by Julius Junior. In the propaganda of the Civil War, Cleo was portrayed as a drunk, an Oriental, and a whore. On the other hand, Octavian/Augustus claimed his legitimacy in Roman politics from papa Julius, who had been no enemy of Cleo's. So how was the poet of the Julii to cope with Cleo? He couldn't ignore her. He could not praise her wholly - she had been portrayed as a drunk an oriental and a whore, remember, and the enemy. He could not damn her wholly: She had been a faithful ally of Julius Senior. Is any of this relevant, I hear you ask. Assume it is and think about it. Does it help you to understand Dido ? Another thing you must do. Go and read the passage from Apollonius Rhodius where the wedding of Medea and Jason is described. Compare and contrast it with that of Aeneas and Dido. Try also not to think in terms like "true love" and "cheap flings". I hope this helps. Yours, yn Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: Allecto (BK 7)
I too felt like Robin Mitchell-Boyask - whom I do not have the honour to know - but I thought I was just being my usual bad-tempered self. Yours, yn > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:32:40 -0400 > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: Robin Mitchell-Boyask <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Allecto (BK 7) > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Jim is being way too kind. The student should first read the Aeneid and do > some thinking on his or her own, before asking a question that looks a bit > too much like a student trolling for other profs to do the work. > > > >read dfc feeney, the gods in epic, chapter on aeneid, on allecto > > > > > >>I have a question that I hope all of you can help me with ASAP. It is for > >>an > >>essay that I am doing. I have to identify Allecto, and discuss her demonic > >>character, and how it contributes to the Aeneid, in book 7. I have to > >>back up > >>my arguments by citing specific lines of bk7... Can anyone help with this? > >>--- > >>To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You > >>will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, > >>send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe > >>mantovano" in the body. > > > > > >Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara > >Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept. > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University > >860/685-2066 (fax: 2089)Middletown CT 06459-0146 > >Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html > > > > > > > >--- > >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You > >will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, > >send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe > >mantovano" in the body. > > > Robin Mitchell-Boyask > Associate Professor > Department of Greek, Hebrew and Roman Classics > 353 Anderson Hall, 1114 W. Berks St. > Temple University > Philadelphia PA 19122 > 215 204-3672 > www.temple.edu/classics > > > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You > will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe > mantovano" in the body. > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
Re: VIRGIL: what is this dread longing? (A. 6.721)
I have always read this in the way you do: that on a "mechanical" level, the souls follow the cycle, and the command of the god, without really having any choice in the matter. The reason they actually WANT to go back is that, having drunk of Lethe, they forget what Elysium is like and how much better it is than what they are going back to. Aeneas asks a quick question. Anchises answers with a long speech, in which the key words of response to Aeneas are - if I am remembering this correctly - "scilicet immemores". Now, there may well be a deeper metaphysical meaning as to the souls' longing, or it may simply be that Vergil is extrapolating from his own experience that even those of us who believe in a life of eternal bliss after death are, generally speaking, not too keen on the idea of dying. In other words, Vergil is assuming that the dead are as keen on the light of day as the living - if only they can be made to forget what Elysium is like. Yours, yn _--- > Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 23:17:01 -0500 > To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: VIRGIL: what is this dread longing? (A. 6.721) > Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Why do the purified souls in Virgil's Elysium desire to resume the flesh? > At Aen. 6.719-21, Aeneas asks Anchises: > > Is it to be thought > that lofty souls return again to sluggish > bodies? poor men--what is this > dread longing [cupido] for the light that afflicts them? > > Later, Anchises tells Aeneas that the souls "begin to desire [velle] to > return to bodies" after they have drunk of Lethe (751). But Lethe only > explains why the souls in Elysium don't object to resuming all the ills > that flesh is heir to; what it doesn't explain is why souls should WANT > bodies in the first place. > > Perhaps one might take line 749ff. (deus evocat...ut) to mean that the > souls don't really have a choice in the matter, that they wish for bodies > because the god wishes them to do wish so. But that only pushes the problem > back another level -- it doesn't solve it. > > There has been a great deal of talk about the theodicy in Geo. 1.121-47, > but this seems (to me) to pose the problem of evil at a different level, > one that is, if not unanswerable, at least unanswered in the text. One can > read this as evidence of Virgil's essential pessimism about human nature > (as Michael Putnam does), but that doesn't really answer the question > either: what is it about the body that is so attractive to the fiery seeds > in heaven? > > --- > David Wilson-Okamura http://www.virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] > University of ChicagoOnline Virgil discussion, bibliography & links > --- > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You > will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe > mantovano" in the body. > Yvan Nadeau [EMAIL PROTECTED] 0131-650-3575 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. You will just prove to everyone that you can't read directions. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body.
