Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
Thomas Coens schrieb: in Homer time is cyclical (images of the wheeling heavens, the changing seasons, the people joining together in a circle); the dilemma of the Homeric hero is timeless, eternally recurring. By contrast, time on Aeneas' shield is linear. Events occur at a determinable point in time; and the meaning of one event can only be established by reference to what precedes and what follows it. If time in Aeneas' shield is linear, this is an exception of all we know from Maro's Lucretian cosmology, specially from the famous hymn Bucolica (Ekloga) 4 with circles of nature, history, ages etc., and the reincarnation-circle of human lives in Aeneis 6 (pater Anchises: Roman heroes are the Troyan heroes, coming back to the earths surface), compare Cicero's Somnium Scipionis. It would also be an exception of all we know from ancient time-concept: aion is a time-circle, eis aiônas tôn aiônôn (in saecula saeculorum) is the formular conserved also in Christian leithourgeia (and Latin in the missa) for: into all time-circles of time-circles. An old fractal, seen in stars, planets, nature and biological rhythms, as we are told. Linear time - if this is to be found in a Vergilius-text, it would be a revolution! legamus comparemus examinamur! ich glaube sonst meinen eigenen Augen nicht! grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
Vergil's description of Aeneas' shield in Book VIII recalls Homer, but here as elsewhere Vergil exploits the parallel not to emphasize the similarities between his vision and Homer's, but, rather, the differences. If you examine the imagery and language of the two passages closely, you'll notice that each offers a startlingly different conception of time: in Homer time is cyclical (images of the wheeling heavens, the changing seasons, the people joining together in a circle); the dilemma of the Homeric hero is timeless, eternally recurring. By contrast, time on Aeneas' shield is linear. Events occur at a determinable point in time; and the meaning of one event can only be established by reference to what precedes and what follows it. The suffering of Aeneas and the suffering he inflicts on others can be understood--his journey gains meaning--only when viewed in its proper place in a linear time-line that has as its culmination--its vindication--Augustus. In this sense, the Vergilian hero's dilemma is essentially historical. On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, David Wilson-Okamura wrote: message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura From: Timothy Mallon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 11:09:51 PST Remember though, that the *Homeric* Odysseus (presumably the one whom Aeneas shadows in the first half of the A.) is neither bad nor unwise. The idea of a character having to change to keep aligned with a structure seems at first blush at odds with how a writer would conceive of the character. It is better to describe the first half of the A. as Odyssean in situation or pattern, the latter as Iliadic. Aeneas is the same man throughout, placed in different quandaries. The difference between Aeneas and Achilles is usually emphasized, on the grounds that V. envisages that Rome will escape the kind of destruction that caps human achievement in the _Iliad_, but I can't see much reason for developing the Achilles/Hector ~ Aeneas/Turnus analogy, other than as bringing forward a fundamental likeness. Had V. wished to emphasize dissimilarity, he could have set the A.'s narrative frame a little later: Iliad-style furor and conquest followed by the renewal of Italy. As it stands, the A. seems to me to emphasize the notion of repetition or reprise of situations and roles in different places and by different men. *** ecce non curo nec resisto nec reprehendo Augustinus, Confessiones, lib. XI cap. xx -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight content snipped the first half of Aeneis is an Odyssee (or an Anti-Odyssee); the second half is an Ilias (or an Anti-Ilias); so in the first half Aeneas is experienced, polytropos like Odysseus, but in a good and wise form, because he is an Anti-Odysseus there; for the second half he has to change his character, because he becomes to be an Achilleus (or Anti-Achilleus), stepping though blood like an old Greek hero of the Ilias. the terrible heroic end of these lines show accuratly that the poem has not become ready. that is not the end of an epos, but an interruption, a brutal one. Aeneis is a fragment. grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight = dualism
message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura From: Michael-janck Snydert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 17:58:38 UZT Everything mirrors opposites, not to sound rambling or discouraging, but infinity does exist - to quote the saying: we must repeat. Perhaps not enough focus has ever been given - aside from eccentrics like Joyce and Carrol (Vergil?)- to mirrors. But repeat-reflect - a mirror reflection is not accurate, but a flipped/horizontal of that which is looking into it. If one is going to start talking mirrors at a book, one then takes into account the reader, following basic causality, albeit possibly unconsciously. This is so ingrained in people, the dislike of infinity, that they create things like religion, or at least utilize said things, to hide from it. I heard someone once call it one of those rambling things one will never know. But its not that hard to think about. The humunculus psyche (which of course is greek for mirror) can say nothing that isn't a description of itself, even if flipped horizontally. Why can't things be straight forward extreme? I don't know, but the universe doesn't seem designed that way. Only humans dislike camoflouge (or do they?). Jerzy Kosinski made a good point when after killing someone, the difference betwixt the action and memory saved his heart from exploding. As long as people huddle together in groups, they can be labeled American or French; otherwise, can one person really represent a country? If a country, why not a region? and if a region, why not a town? And why not make towns their own seperate countries? If you live in New York for a while, you begin to forget where you are, becoming only dimply aware that you are in some giant metroplitan area on earth. But in L.A., everyone thinks and says they are on the WEST COAST in L.A. inside whatever VALLEY or SANTA MONICA, even if they grew up there. The saying goes if you aint from new york ya soft. I geuss one has to be tough to live without the security of mirrors and extensions (of the nervous system). But most of history can be explained through technology and the looking glass, an oculus of the flesh. It may be that the writer of that Aeneas has only done such a good characterization, that his model accidentally has human qualities. Or he may have known. One can't really ask him can one? --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
how do you explain the death of Turnus at the end of book 12? That was an act that could have been avoided if Aeneas had shown the clementia of either Caesar or Augustus, yet he did not- perhaps it is the battle within Aeneas to conquer himself. I have great problems equating Aeneas with augustus because of this last passage- ...tune hinc spoliis indute meorum eripiare mihi? Pallas te hoc volnere, Pallas immolat et poenam scelerato ex sanguine sumit, hoc dicens ferrum adverso sub pectore condit fervidus. ast illi solvuntur frigore membra vitaque cum gemitu fugit indignata sub umbras. ...[will you] [hence] [in the spoils] [clothed] [of my friends] [be snatched] [from me]? [Pallas] [thee] [with this] [wound], [Pallas] [sacrifices] [and] [this penalty] [your accursed] [from] [blood] [takes], [this] [saying] [his sword] [his hostile] [within] [breast] [he hides] [glowing]. [but] [his] [are relaxed] [with cold] [limbs] [and his life] [with] [a groan] [fled] [indignant] [to] [the shades]. to me the most wonderful thing about this passage, and you can tell me if i am wrong, is that we cannot really know who dies in the last line. we know that turnus is killed, but there is nothing in the language to say that the subject is not aeneas. this is what it means to be a hero for vergil...man is but a tool of history. the aeneas of book one is in this final scene once and for all dispensed with. can't you picture aeneas standing over turnus, his sword lately plunged in turnus' breast, and all of the sudden...stasis. he thinks back to who he was; the aeneas of book one could never have been so ruthless. rage. more and more of aeneas descriptions are identical with those of turnus as the poem is drawn towards this climactic ending, where aeneas kills turnus, but in some way assumes the soul of turnus, offending and banishing his own. for one final moment, the aeneas of book one is still holding on, but seeing what he has done, hoc dicens, in a sort of profound despair, vitaque cum genitu fugit indignata sub umbras. this would take care of the concern that 'this could have been avoided if aeneas' anything aeneas, qua aeneas, is no more. thus, as you say, it is a 'battle to conquer himself', but significantly an unwitting one. or rather, it is a battle for the force of history to make aeneas conquer himself. or a battle for aeneas to hold on to his vita in the face of such a demanding history. now i am going to push the boundaries of possibility. you may think i have already pushed them too far, and as i have said, this is sophomoric presumption. i have a love for vergil's art, and i want to know what it means, so this is what i think--whosoever in their wisdom can help me, please do. in some way, perhaps, aeneas not so much takes on the spirit of turnus, but the force of history becomes him. have you noticed how more and more aeneas is described in terms of his armor? arma virumque cano... by the end the arms are the man. the man is the arms. or rather, the man dissolves into the arms--he loses himself. when aeneas is fleeing troy, he has anchises on his shoulder, and is running along side of achates, creusa behind them. he carries the past on his shoulders, takes the future by the hand, but leaves the present [creusa] behind. later he tries to rescue the creusa, finds her shade, cannot embrace it. this is what it means to be a hero, this is the cost of that kind of immortality: you cannot embrace the present. carry the past, make providence for the future. aeneas? aeneas who? aeneas is dead. you ARE invincible history--all arms. -matthewspencer --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura From: Timothy Mallon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 11:09:51 PST Remember though, that the *Homeric* Odysseus (presumably the one whom Aeneas shadows in the first half of the A.) is neither bad nor unwise. The idea of a character having to change to keep aligned with a structure seems at first blush at odds with how a writer would conceive of the character. It is better to describe the first half of the A. as Odyssean in situation or pattern, the latter as Iliadic. Aeneas is the same man throughout, placed in different quandaries. The difference between Aeneas and Achilles is usually emphasized, on the grounds that V. envisages that Rome will escape the kind of destruction that caps human achievement in the _Iliad_, but I can't see much reason for developing the Achilles/Hector ~ Aeneas/Turnus analogy, other than as bringing forward a fundamental likeness. Had V. wished to emphasize dissimilarity, he could have set the A.'s narrative frame a little later: Iliad-style furor and conquest followed by the renewal of Italy. As it stands, the A. seems to me to emphasize the notion of repetition or reprise of situations and roles in different places and by different men. *** ecce non curo nec resisto nec reprehendo Augustinus, Confessiones, lib. XI cap. xx -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight content snipped the first half of Aeneis is an Odyssee (or an Anti-Odyssee); the second half is an Ilias (or an Anti-Ilias); so in the first half Aeneas is experienced, polytropos like Odysseus, but in a good and wise form, because he is an Anti-Odysseus there; for the second half he has to change his character, because he becomes to be an Achilleus (or Anti-Achilleus), stepping though blood like an old Greek hero of the Ilias. the terrible heroic end of these lines show accuratly that the poem has not become ready. that is not the end of an epos, but an interruption, a brutal one. Aeneis is a fragment. grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
what shall this brackets-salad mean? word-by-word-translation? who kills whom can be seen by illi - in those brackets translated with his, but it has the direction to the other person: demonstrative pronoun to the distant person. illi (Dativ) means the enemy, Turnus. the subject of course is Aeneas; the dativ object is Turnus, the demonstrativ pronoun ille can only mean the distant person Hans, you've hit the nail just off to the side of its head. I never claimed that ille might literally be Aeneas. Of course Aeneas kills Turnus. But you forget that the _Aeneid_ is poetry, and its syntax should not be treated as if it were prose. Therefore, yes, demonstrative to the distant person--Turnus; yet, i am sorry, i cannot help but simultaneously think of aeneas, who is himself quite 'distant' in this scene. aeneas buries his sword in turnus' breast, but the other's (the other aeneas) limbs grow cold... as you point out, aeneas goes through a remarkable change. however, it is not, as has since been pointed out, so black and white as you seem to read it. there are moments of the old aeneas in the second half and even in book 12. i have never really thought about this idea of people and events reincarnated in others as applied to Vergil, but i am enthralled by it. it is huge in joyce's Ulysses, in fact it is precisely what i love about that work. wow. i'd like to see more discussion about this... to get back to hans, i fail to understand why you think that the aeneid is an unfinished work. love from, -matthewspencer --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
The reason Hans thinks it is an unfinished work is because it is. Aside form the several half lines throughout the poem (I believe eight), Virgil himself asked his friends to destroy the work on his death bed because he felt it could not be published (it was Augustus who stopped this from happening!). --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
It is not just the pronoun illi but the particle ast in the lines in question which assure us that the logical subject has switched from Aeneas to Turnus, and thus that it is Turnus who dies. A better place to start from if you want to look for reflections of Aeneas' character in dying Turnus is the nice parallel between Turnus' limbs being undone by cold here (solvuntur frigore membra), and Aeneas' limbs being undone by cold the very first time he appears by name in the epic, in 1.92: extemplo Aeneae solvuntur frigore membra Is it just cynical irony or poetic justice that Turnus should now be the one losing his vital heat, while Aeneas burns with wrath? I leave it to you to say. You can find good discussion of this parallel in e.g. M.C.J. Putnam's Virgil's Aeneid. Interpretation and Influence (Chapel Hill 1995) pp. 3-4 et passim. Phil Thibodeau University of Georgia Hans, you've hit the nail just off to the side of its head. I never claimed that ille might literally be Aeneas. Of course Aeneas kills Turnus. But you forget that the _Aeneid_ is poetry, and its syntax should not be treated as if it were prose. Therefore, yes, demonstrative to the distant person--Turnus; yet, i am sorry, i cannot help but simultaneously think of aeneas, who is himself quite 'distant' in this scene. aeneas buries his sword in turnus' breast, but the other's (the other aeneas) limbs grow cold... --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
End of the Aeneid; echoes; was re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
The trajectory of the Aeneid seems complete, although the poem is unfinished. I think Aeneas does distance himself from the killing of Turnus - indeed he even gives up his own agency in claiming that Pallas is the killer and avenger. Since Philip Thibodeau brought up an interesting echo on the phrase soluuntur frigore membra, I would like to add another intriguing one: ii. 363: Urbs antiqua ruit, multos dominata per annos (Troy) i.12-14: Urbs antiqua fuit, Tyrii tenuere coloni, Karthago, Italiam contra Tiberinaque longe ostia, dives opum studiisque asperrima belli .. *** ecce non curo nec resisto nec reprehendo Augustinus, Confessiones, lib. XI cap. xx --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Shield in book eight
Rich- I think the shield is one of the great mysteries in the Aeneid, but it is an integral part of the plot. Aeneas is about to begin fighting seriously to get his foothold in Italy- the images, like the characters in the underworld in 6, represent his (Aeneas') and Rome's destiny. Your description of his reaction to it is, I think, good- remember that it was presented by Venus, so he IS the child there. I don't have the Latin right at hand, but the language is very powerful- the shield representing the weight of his future and giving him a reason to fight. What I'm curious about- throwing this into a slightly different ctaegory, but on the same passage- is Virgil's geographic references. Again, i don't have the text, but why are certain places singled out, especially in the last 25 or 30 lines of book 8? I know there is connection to Augustan expansion, but anybody have any thoughts on this? Hope that gives you some ideas. Jim I do not see the reason for Virgil including the images of the shield in his work. I don't think this flows well with the rest of the poem and It seems to be almost a distraction. His reaction to the shield seems that of a child playing with a toy for the first time,,I have no idea what his reaction signifies. Can someone shed light.. Rich --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
