Re: 2006 LinuxQuestions.org Members Choice Awards
On 2/19/07, John Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Around 1,000 is sufficient if all we want to do is compare > two or three percentages (e.g. GNOME, KDE, Windows) with a margin of > error of around +/- 3% at the 95% confidence level. problem is that our market share (and maybe even the entire gnu/linux market share) is probably around that 3% margin, so we'd be talking about a 100% error margin. > The hard part is getting the sampling frame right. It basically > consists of sending invitations to participate to people such that every > computer user, regardless of which OS or DE they use, has an equal > chance of receiving the invitation. If you can come up with a way of > doing that I, for one, am all ears. what about (us) giving away pamphlets in the streets of a few dozen cities? sounds a little too simple, but could work... how many times were you stopped (in a very similar way) for some kind of survey? problem is that these kinds of surveys would be biased towards people who care about answering them = people who care too much about their computers = above-average technically skilled/interested people = people who are more likely to run gnu/linux. -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Updated "Why choose GNOME" leaflet
On 10/16/06, Jeff Waugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Change "IBM, HP and Sun" to focus on the major distributors, who we can >clearly associate with GNOME: Red Hat, Novell, Sun, Canonical. we can also clearly associate sun with gnome through java desktop system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Desktop_System +1 for replacing canonical with ubuntu. -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Spreading the press release/release announcement and collecting press coverage
On 9/26/06, Dave Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If there's one thing I regret it's that we didn't push this release as > "The big performance push" ... maybe because we didn't have any benchmarks available, i guess. how could we have them for future releases? i mean what to measure, with which utilities, and how? (if i'm supposed to compile gnome from source, don't count on me) -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
gnome press resources
i'm listed in this contact page with my old email address; please update it with the current one ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): http://www.gnome.org/press/ thanks a lot, -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://live.gnome.org/SantiagoRoza -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Spreading the press release/release announcement and collecting press coverage
these are the sources i found so far: http://slashdot.org/articles/06/09/07/0240207.shtml http://arstechnica.com/articles/columns/linux/linux-20060905.ars http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS6261033378.html feel free to add more... -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Spreading the press release/release announcement and collecting press coverage
On 9/7/06, Dave Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Again, this > will be a database of information for some young bright spark with some > time who would like to analyse all the reviews and slashdot comments > later on, and make some concrete suggestions based on those comments and > reviews to the appropriate developer/mailing list. Let's get that > feedback loop working for the next release. i don't know about the "young" or "bright" parts :P, but i can do the review compiling thing again (i did it for 2.12), in case you guys are ok with that. -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
On 7/25/06, Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've never really understood why so many people seem to listen to Doc > Searls. Maybe, that's because he tells geeks what they would like to > hear? yes, exactly. we geeks love to hear these optimistic things about supposed geeky "revolutions"... just as we like to ignore obvious facts like most of the population not having internet access, most of internet traffic going to the same "old" mass media conglomerates, most of "new" media (blogs etc) not having 1/100 of the "old" media's audience, and most of the biggest companies not giving a damn about this "revolution", but still selling / profiting like crazy (using this "old" marketing that supposedly doesn't work anymore)... http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/01/1433206 no matter how hard we geeks like to pretend "old" communication and marketing (the ones we don't like, the ones most of us don't understand) are dead, they're still alive and kicking (and healthy!). last time i checked, uncool non-bloggy microsoft was selling much more than your cool distro of choice. -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
On 7/17/06, Havoc Pennington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > thought about from a design rather than marketing angle; why would end > users use GNOME and Linux if those things were not designed/invented to > benefit them? that's also a marketing angle: marketing is not just selling stuff. i suggest you read my rant :P in this same list, if you feel like: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2005-December/msg00057.html > The goal should not be "get people to use Linux" but to provide benefits > to people. providing benefits is an important goal, but not the only one from a marketing point of view. you have to find out what they really want, give it to them, and then communicate it properly. -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Personas
On 7/16/06, Glynn Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think having a name and a face is amazingly useful - helps people to > visualize the types of people they are and what their lives might > involve. yeah we all agree on that. i'm just saying it doesn't make much sense to start on the warm fuzzy part, until we have useful user profiles. that's why i started by defining their user/marketing profile first, instead of the day they prefer to do their shopping. we can always add that later. > I didn't know about the other Personas wiki page [if it even > existed then], otherwise I would have taken those profiles, added some > pictures and names. neither did i :), it used to be just a posting to this mailing list, until claus kindly uploaded it. but imho we still have a lot of [profiling / segmentation / etc] work to do, before we can start with the faces and nicknames. anyway, my problem with the ones you suggested is not that you didn't use mines (who cares?), but the fact that imho they're 70% similar and not very solid from a marketing point of view. -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/16/06, Glynn Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hey, > > Santiago Roza wrote: > > On 7/14/06, Glynn Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> I even started on some profiles, with a more 'human' aspect [1] - > >> http://live.gnome.org/JoshWilliams > >> http://live.gnome.org/HarrisonJacobs > > > > > > and what's the difference between these two and the ones we had > > before, other than having a random "human" name and a face (both > > american btw), a similar job, a similar age, and very similar needs? > > :) > > I think having a name and a face is amazingly useful - helps people to > visualize the types of people they are and what their lives might > involve. I didn't know about the other Personas wiki page [if it even > existed then], otherwise I would have taken those profiles, added some > pictures and names. > > > Glynn -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Personas
On 7/15/06, Murray Cumming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please either read about Personas online or wait until they're more than > half-done. i read *all* the documentation they recommended in the marketing list when the marketing personas issue first came out. and believe me it wasn't the first time i had read about personas anyway; it tends to appear somewhere when you study business administration :) > They can be of immense value to our marketing efforts, > including in product development, research, and advertising. ... providing they are representative profiles of our target users. when they're random stories with no coherence or representation (eg: "manny is a zoophilic 14-year-old genius lawyer who works as a construction worker and likes to cut himself with a wifi usb chip"), they have no marketing value whatsoever. > The bits that seem random to you are bits that make them feel like real > people, which helps people to identify with them and meet their needs. i like the idea of some *bits* making target audiences look all human and fuzzy, people swallow them more easily that way :) what i find useless is the idea of creating all human and fuzzy profiles with no market representation at all... that's an anecdote more than a profile, and i can't imagine why we would need those. -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Personas
(oops should have moved this to the personas thread) On 7/14/06, Glynn Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I even started on some profiles, with a more 'human' aspect [1] - > http://live.gnome.org/JoshWilliams > http://live.gnome.org/HarrisonJacobs and what's the difference between these two and the ones we had before, other than having a random "human" name and a face (both american btw), a similar job, a similar age, and very similar needs? :) -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/14/06, Glynn Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Calum Benson wrote: > > Quim Gil wrote: > >> El dv 14 de 07 del 2006 a les 08:41 +0200, en/na Murray Cumming va > >> escriure: > >> > >>> Should anyone ever get around to creating some GNOME personas > >> Someone started http://live.gnome.org/Personas months ago. > > Yeah, and I tried to do something like that for gnome.conf.au, but > didn't get enough time in the day to get into the session. > > I even started on some profiles, with a more 'human' aspect [1] - > > http://live.gnome.org/JoshWilliams > > ie. has curly hair, outgoing, etc... > > http://live.gnome.org/HarrisonJacobs > > > Would be real sweet to have a bit of fun and develop these types of > profiles at something like the Boston Summit. > > > Glynn > > [1] I took the inspiration from a previous Solaris Desktop Summit.. > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
On 7/14/06, Glynn Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I even started on some profiles, with a more 'human' aspect [1] - > http://live.gnome.org/JoshWilliams > http://live.gnome.org/HarrisonJacobs and what's the difference between these two and the ones we had before, other than having a random "human" name and a face (both american btw), a similar job, a similar age, and very similar needs? :) -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: The relation with gnomefiles.org
On 7/14/06, Eugenia Loli-Queru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (original message included below) > >you're also using a trademark without proper authorization! > > I don't know what "proper authorization" would be (you mean, in writing?). i guess so, i'm not a lawyer thank god :P > but the Gnome Board HAS discussed the Gnomefiles situation last year. This > is the email I received some time ago from a Gnome member ... if the board is cool with the site, i guess you're ok. but i just meant you *could* potentially not be ok, if the board changed its mind. my point was: please realize you're using a trademark, so you can't just post whatever you feel like in the name of that trademark, without expecting any kind of control/authorization from the trademark holder. and please don't take this like a personal attack towards gnomefiles, or anything like that: i really like the site and i use it frequently... but you still have to understand that gnome is not your trademark. > ... So no, I am not > willing to remove non-Free apps from the listing. and i didn't ask you to (nor could or would i do such thing). i just said that it wasn't just your call but also the gnome foundation's, at least if you wanted to keep using the gnome trademark. > >> GnomeFiles.org is a GTK software repository. > > why not calling it gtkfiles.org then?? > > Marketing. Users don't generally know what GTK really is. sounds like a good reason. but please understand that your decision of using a trademark puts your website (at least indirectly) under the control of the gnome foundation. greetings, -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/14/06, Eugenia Loli-Queru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >you're also using a trademark without proper authorization! > > I don't know what "proper authorization" would be (you mean, in writing?), > but the Gnome Board HAS discussed the Gnomefiles situation last year. This > is the email I received some time ago from a Gnome member: > > "The GNOME board have now discussed that issue and come to the agree that > you and gnomefiles.org are generally doing a very good job that we are happy > with. GNOME choose the LGPL for multiple reasons, allowing non-gpl including > non-free software is one of those. That said we do support free software > above non-free and we feel that should in some way or form come through. > [...] If you would also be willing to consider marking non-free software > clearer as such, maybe boldfacing their license field or something that > would also be appreciated. " > > And this has happened, I have complied with this request (all non-Free apps > are now marked as such). I am not sure what more it can be done for this, it > seems that the Board doesn't have a problem with Gnomefiles generally > speaking especially after fixing the only standing issue. So no, I am not > willing to remove non-Free apps from the listing. I prefer open source > applications too (don't get me wrong), it's just that I also want the site > to be a full, complete GTK+ app list. > > >> GnomeFiles.org is a GTK software repository. > > why not calling it gtkfiles.org then?? > > Marketing. Users don't generally know what GTK really is. It would fail if > it was called gtkfiles and people couldn't even pronounce the name of the > site. We like it or not, Gnome is the best ambassador for GTK. And that's > why the site was named as such. In fact, MOST of our readers ARE Gnome > users! And most of the applications listed there DO use the Gnome libraries! > Gnome is in the HEART of the site, even if the site allows non-gnome apps > too. > However, I think that gtkfiles.org is also registered, but it's not pointing > anywhere atm. I am not sure if the owner actually bought the domain name > when I asked him to do so 2 years ago. But I _did_ ask him to do so. I am > just not sure if it went anywhere. > > Sorry I can't reply to the list just yet, my emails somehow don't go > through and I have unsubscribed. I tried re-subscribing but the > authorization hasn't arrive yet. Quim, if you would be so kind and forward > my email to the list? > > thanks, > Eugenia -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: The relation with gnomefiles.org
On 7/14/06, Eugenia Loli-Queru <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My > reader's service is my goal, not politicalities. those things you call "politicalities" might be important goals for the project whose trademarked name you're taking for your website. if you opened windowsfiles.com, microsoft would have it shut down in 24 hours. same with apple and macfiles.com, and so on. that's because you'd be using a trademark without proper authorization. in the case of gnome... you're also using a trademark without proper authorization! so believe it or not, you can't just put non-free software or pr0n or whatever you feel like (and the gnome foundation doesn't approve), while still using gnome's trademark. i'm not saying the gnome foundation will do anything about your unauthorized trademark usage, i'm not saying it won't; i'm just saying you must realize that you're using a trademark, and because of that you must abide by the trademark holder's rules. please don't cry censorship or anything, because the rules are more than clear: anyone can post anything they feel like... but not in the name on someone else. and if you don't believe me, try opening windowsfiles.com, load it with warez, and see what happens. > GnomeFiles.org is a GTK software repository. why not calling it gtkfiles.org then?? -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Personas
On 7/14/06, Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wanted to add a link or so > to your mail for credit but somehow never got to do it. dude i was just kidding, it's not like i expected "credit" for 20 lines of text :) anyway thanks for moving it into the wiki, but i don't think it will be of any use: seems like the intended "personas" are nothing like user profiles, but random short stories with no particular marketing value :) -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Personas (was: Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...)
On 7/14/06, David Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Geraldine always does her shopping on Friday, since she finishes work > an hour earlier. She buys lots of fresh fruit and vegetables, but ends > up throwing half of them away two weeks later because they've gone > rotten. She doesn't like cooking, so ends up going to the freezer more > often than to the veg." This is good. and what would be the use of such a random non-representative profile, from a marketing point of view? -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
On 7/14/06, Calum Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Someone started http://live.gnome.org/Personas months ago. > > Yeesh, didn't know that. Has anybody ever come up with an effective way > of keeping track of what on earth is happening on wikis, without > subscribing to every change? yeah i guess that's hard... i didn't know about that wiki page either, and i wrote that text :) (btw i abandoned it later because now i'm not so sure about the usefulness of this personas thing) -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Internet Marketing
On 4/17/06, Luis Villa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That said, we should probably be identifying key phrases and > using them consistenly in our own messaging- which we don't do right > now. that's a completely different thing, and i agree with it 100%. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Internet Marketing
On 4/17/06, Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Additionally, the marketing mailing list has no authority on people. If > some of them consider to change their habits of linking to the GNOME > web page, this is absolutely "spontaneous". It fits your definition. the thread was about us starting a "campaign", and i seriously doubt campaigns of any kind are examples of spontaneous behaviour. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Internet Marketing
the very purpose of search engines' indexing algorithms is to show the real positioning of websites, based on their "spontaneous" popularity in relation to the search terms. any attempt to manipulate that positioning is not only unethical, but also considered cheap promotion of very bad taste. if we want gnome to be listed #1 in a "desktop" search, let's just work harder and harder, until one day maybe people will *really* link to our website when talking about that. but until then let's try not to lie, ok? -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Internet Marketing
internet marketing? i thought that was called "googlebombing" :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Promotion campaign for GNOME 2.14 release?
On 2/24/06, Alex Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I seem to remember him saying he was > switching to Kubuntu when Dapper comes out? no exactly, luckily. he said he was "now using Kubuntu on his desktop machine": http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php "on his desktop machine" means he's using ubuntu (gnome) on his laptop, at least. if it wasn't like that, he would have just said "using kubuntu". -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Promotion campaign for GNOME 2.14 release?
On 2/24/06, Rajiv Vyas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That sucks. How about using Mark Shuttleworth? well that's different: we all know he likes gnome, don't we? :) we could think of a short list of questions, and maybe have them sent by someone he knows (*cough* jeff waugh *cough*). the first ones i can think of are: - how and why did you choose gnome for ubuntu? - what is your favorite change in gnome 2.14? - what do you think about xgl and the 3d accelerated desktop in general? do you see them becoming defaults in ubuntu in the near future? - what are you looking forward to in future versions of gnome? -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Promotion campaign for GNOME 2.14 release?
On 2/24/06, Rajiv Vyas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One of the possibilites is try and do an interview with Linus and see > if his view has changed on GNOME with the new 2.14 coming out. his views on gnome won't change with a minor release, he simply doesn't like our concept of usability. it'd be great if he did, but he doesn't and he won't. not to mention we're the official desktop of the gnu project ;) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: The GNOME Journal, February Edition
sounds great... btw, for quick reference the link is: http://gnomejournal.org/ -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Ideas for "GNOME 3.0"
this sounds great, really. i only disagree with multimedia being one of they key features to advertise, because i don't think we'll ever be able to offer a complete multimedia experience out-of-the-box, for licensing reasons. mp3 will continue being patented, the dmca will continue criminalizing libdvdcss, and so on... so the only solution i see is some kind of post-install wizard, that offers to automagically offers to install non-free and/or patented stuff, only if you declare you live in a country without software patents ;) the other selling points (3d desktop and beagle-based searching/tagging) sound great. and if we can settle the multimedia mess (via post-install wizard for example), it could be #3. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME en P2P networks
On 12/23/05, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Then, my journalist colleague, you should we careful when writing that > something is ilegal when no judge has declared its ilegality. ok, "arguably [il]legal" then. not like i said "pirates" or "criminals" anyway... > Ok! Opening gtk-gnutella... cool, seems like gnutella has evolved since the last time i had checked it. i'm really really glad. i still have my doubts about emule, but that's because i use it very often (don't ask ;) ). anyway, you often filtered the results by size, and i specifically talked about "the most sourced/popular files"... anyway, i repeat: seems like gnutella has matured, and i'm glad. > And let's see the great GNOME brand: > ... Southpark videos ... we'll never beat underpants gnomes, deal with that :P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpants_Gnomes (1: deploy gnome, 2: ???, 3: profit!!!) > But no problem, Santiago. We don't need to dicuss this. we don't need to discuss what we do as individuals, but we do need to discuss what we do as an organization. ok go put your files in there (btw i'm more than glad to see you'll be taking care, and not some guy who feels like rar-ing them or something), but please let's not say "go find your latest gnome release in emule". -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME en P2P networks
On 12/23/05, Thilo Pfennig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Fedora , SuSE, many distributions already > use these networks as a way of distribution. are you SURE of what you're saying? are you sure that fedora core or suse are using p2p networks OTHER THAN BITTORRENT (the one i already said -many times- was the only viable option for free software projects)? have you REALLY seen them using emule/edonkey or kazaa/fasttrack or bearshare/gnutella to distribute their binaries or any other kind of material? -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME en P2P networks
> No big deal, but a useful tip. and i didn't make a big deal out of it. i just said we should stay out of p2p networks other than bittorrent. > In the kiosks you can buy porn and lots of non-free software magazines. > Same with CDs, DVDs and the WWW itself. Do we want to be associated with > this? in the kiosks you can buy many things. but in some p2p networks (like emule/edonkey) it's 99% about pr0n or mp3 or divx or warez. > If you go deeper into the "medium is the message" concept you would > realise that the P2P networks are a medium that fits perfectly in our > message. bittorrent is, the others are not. don't you think there's a reason why many free software projects are using bittorrent, but none of them is using emule or gnutella or kazaa/fasttrack? > Your perception of the P2P networks seems to be biased. Be careful, you > could be a victim of the cultural industries and the mass media > manipulation, that insist in this 99% of illegality. god. no i'm not a victim of that manipulation, mainly because i don't consume a lot of mainstream media, and even less when it's about technology. the level of ignorance and stupidity that doesn't even let them spell names correctly makes me wanna throw up. on the other hand, as a tech journalist myself i tend to be well informed about these issues. so i do know how p2p works, and i do know the differences between emule and bittorrent and gnutella or whatever. and i've even written about it. what i say (emule 99% illegal) is not based in what fox news is telling me to think, but in my own research and direct experience. 'cause we journalists are supposed to research and experiment, no matter the fact that fox news seems to think we shouldn't :) go search a random term in emule/amule, and see if the most sourced result is NOT warez/mp3/divx/etc. go search a random free software project in emule or gnutella, and see if the most popular result is an md5-equivalent copy of what you'll find in the official website. > Thanks to them I got lots > of information when I wanted to know more about CSS, UML, MySQL, PHP, > server administration (including PDFs and video tutorials). yeah well most of that was probably illegal (scanned books and so on)... not like i have a problem with that, but it's not the best point you could use against my 99% illegal theory :) > P2P networks are full of free software and free culture, and we want to > be associated with this. no they're not, at least not many of them (i'd even say all of them excepting bittorrent). and not if we mean free as in freedom (they're full of free stuff, but free as in i'm-an-l33t-hax0r-who-finds-stuff-on-teh-intarweb-without-paying). > In any case, I have no problem that non-free software users sharing > today porn, warez, mp3, divx, etc, will do it in a future on the top of > a GNOME desktop. neither do i. but i don't want joe sixpack and/or mainstream media (well they're pretty much the same) associating us with that, or thinking the gimp is as "free" as his hax0red photoshop. > Your position in this debate exemplarises the will of centralisation I > was commenting in Planet GNOME: well i'm not against all decentralization, but i think it can only be done when things are ready for that. and imho, most p2p networks are not (yet). -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME en P2P networks
> However, if we put legitimate gnome content, you > think that will encourage shady gnome content to get uploaded as well? if we put legitimate gnome content once, that will encourage people to "help" and make their own "special" versions (compressed with rar with their very own password and some stupid readme), and update them when they feel is necessary (including alphas and stuff that shouldn't be released). and even if that doesn't happen (but it will), we don't want to be associated with a network that's 99% illegal. > P.S.: Why aren't your messages showing in the gnome marketing list even > though you CC to it? i have no idea... maybe it doesn't accept cced messages? -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME en P2P networks
> You're forgetting the fact that I can upload "naughty schoolgirls 4" and > rename it to "gnome-something" and no one can stop me. no i'm not forgetting it, i'm just acknowledging the fact that it seems like nobody has thought of that yet. and i don't feel like encouraging them. anyway, now that i think of it i see my pr0n example was bad, so i'll move on to real-life examples: sometimes i've searched for ubuntu or openoffice or whatever in emule, and i've rarely seen the latest official and untouched versions as the most sourced ones. when they upload stuff to p2p networks, people like to "help" by compressing stuff with .rar (and adding a password so they have to visit their site), adding incorrect readmes, uploading experimental alphas, and in general messing everything up. do we want people doing that with our gnome? do we want to distribute gnome in ways that we don't control at all? can we guarantee that we'll always be the most sourced file? can we guarantee that we'll always keep up with the latest versions? i don't think so... imho we shouldn't try to cover every single distribution method out there. it'd be more than enough if we had proper distribution channels, all of them properly associated with gnome.org. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps: midget pr0n? cool! (ok just kidding :P) -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME en P2P networks
hmm i don't think it's a good idea. bittorrent? ok many free software projects are using it, so its image is 50% legal 50% warez (+mp3 +divx +pr0n). but the other networks are 99% about warez... do we really want to be associated with that? ... not to mention the fact that we can't control what goes into emule or gnutella, so anyone could upload "naughty schoolgirls 4" and rename it to gnome-something. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: National and regional press contacts
> You need to be subscribed to the list (and active, ideally), and you > need to be aware of our current talking points: well i'm subscribed (and active i'd like to think :) ), and i'm very aware of those talking points (as a matter of fact i've written about them many times). so i'll be glad to be added there, if it's possible. thanks, -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: National and regional press contacts
> > I guess they should just add you as the regional Press Contact :) i'm interested in the requirements too. is there anything specific i should do in order to be added as the regional contact for argentina? thanks, -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Local group name
i certainly don't have any experience on issues like this one, but if
you're interested in random opinions, i think gnome brasil sounds much
better and more... "human" than gnome-br, which is a little geeky,
weird to pronounce, and not really suited for general audiences imho.
on the other hand, sometimes people (especially non-geeks) enjoy lame
dotcom jokes ("with all this intarweb thing, one of these days we'll
be throwing out the trash through trash.com, har har"), so it might be
successful no matter how much i dislike it.
--
Santiago Roza
Departamento I+D - Thymbra
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ps: btw i'm from argentina; hello neighbour ;)
--
marketing-list mailing list
marketing-list@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> What brings us to the point of... continuing the personas project, which > is really interesing and something really new and constructive in our > discussions. that's #1 in my [gnome] to-do list, believe me. i'm sure there will be progress real soon, and i'll post here whatever i have (as soon as i have it), so we can all work on the personas project. > My contribution to a plan is to help improving the communication > infrastructure of the GNOME community, so teams can plan properly with > more internal knowledge and more powerful external channels of > communication. sounds great; i was asking you because i really can't think of ways to improve that, at least ways within my reach. > What upsets you about the response to linus is the fact of GNOME not > having a response visible to the public containing an official position > signed by the GNOME project and backed by the GNOME community. yes, you got my point perfectly (as a matter of fact you're the first to do that; i guess i wasn't clear): it was not about my signature or me or moral authority or whatever, but about having an official (or at least semi-official) response. > With the > current gnome.org this is pretty difficult, but see in one year time. well i guess you have your reasons to say this, so i'll respect that. but imho, once the consensus is reached and some official position is written, you can post it in whatever site you have, no matter its structure. of course you have reasons i surely don't know, so i could be just wrong. > There are other things that (have) upset you but they are mostly caused > for your lack of information about how GNOME works internally. i'm sure a lot my annoying emails were related to the many things i ignore, but it wasn't just that. there are also attitude and commitment issues i already commented, not to mention the fact that i was sleepless and frustrated and maybe acting stupid :P > With the > current gnome.org this is pretty understandable, but see in six months time. sounds interesting; details wouldn't hurt ;) > You seem to be deeply concerned about > issues you think that aren't being debated at all, when actually they > are being deeply debated there. i'm sure they're being debated in some other places that are beyond my reach. what concerns me is that we barely see anything being debated here in the marketing list, and that i don't see what's being done (not just debated) in those other places. maybe it's my fault for not subscribing to every single list, or maybe there should also be a better communication framework between the different teams. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> You are welcome to disagree (and > reduce your motivation to help out), but then we're just playing semantics, > and not getting on with the job. i wasn't trying to play semantics, just explaining why i had gotten you wrong. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> That was just a little off-topic public gripe. There are people who I would > have liked to see on the Board who didn't get on. ;-) oh now i see. care to share those names at least in private? ;) > Developers are not really all that relevant to this > discussion, their time is better spent hacking rocking software. :-) but having good communication channels with developers is relevant, because our work depends on theirs, and their work should ideally benefit from our work. > I disagree - effective advocacy means knowing your target market, and that > is 100% Real Marketing. :-) yes effective advocacy requires knowing your target markets, but that's a prerequisite for advocacy, not advocacy itself. so if we're gonna do that in addition to just advocacy, well it won't be just advocacy. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> I dunno - with old board members, new board members, and people who should > have been elected (!!!) i don't understand what you mean by "should have been elected"; could you please explain? > (at least in Foundation terms, as opposed to developer terms - but I think > that's entirely sensible for the marketing team). yeah having people from the foundation contributing to this list is great, but i don't see many board members, and no matter that i meant developer terms... sorry for not being clear. > There is definitely some friction between advertising > and marketing goals, and to a certain extent the team is named incorrectly. > What we need to be focusing on is 'advocacy', which takes both into account. well, advocacy is pretty much the same than promotion/advertising, and has little to do with actual marketing. i'm sorry but i don't think i will be able to contribute with that (so i won't have much of a place here), because i've never been much of a cheerleader :P anyway, i'm sure many people will do much better, so it doesn't make a difference. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> Dude - Chris, Nat, Havoc and I each politely disagreed with his message, in > the appropriate forum. yeah well i wasn't meaning that particular "we"; of course nat or havoc or you or chris don't fear linux. i meant "we" the marketing team; dude i don't consider myself a gnome hacker :) > The challenge now is to communicate that beyond the > geek community. Yet another reply to Linus (even as a 'public response'), > covering the *same* issues is not productive. I grok your interest, but you > are misdirecting your effort. ok if you guys have chosen some other path, that's great and i hope i was wrong about my direction (and you're right with yours). i suggested this other thing as a long shot, maybe a little clumsy long shot, because i thought something should be done asap, and i didn't know something was actually being done or planned to do (besides the mailing list replies) by the core team. and i didn't know that not because i didn't care, but because there's not much communication going on between this list and the people who makes the actual decisions about gnome. that lack of communication is what's making the marketing team pretty much irrelevant imho, and the #1 issue we should fix (we being the marketing list guys). problem is i see very little interest in fixing that problem, in both directions: most people here seem to think our objective is to become an advertising team (something that doesn't require much communication with the developers), and most people "there" don't seem to care about the fact that this list even exists (maybe because we haven't done enough merit yet). but i see you seem to care, so the communication issue is not completely hopeless from "your" side, because the interest is there (somewhere). i know i do care (just like some other people in this list), so i hope it will be a matter of trying to produce interesting stuff, and trying to pass it to the developers through our existing channels. we don't know if such collaboration will ever have meaningful effects, but it's worth more than a try. so let's try :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> I don't think we fear Linus. well i think we do. if the very idea of sending him a politely disagreeing message is seen as "too risky", that sounds like fear. > > > At a Marketing Team level I think it's useful to discuss why a potential > > > user (like Linus seems to be) has this perception about GNOME ... > > > > yeah you're right, that's our only task about this event, as a marketing > > team. > > I would never consider Linus as a potential user. The man uses his desktop > ... yeah i know that, and i never considered him a potential user either. i was just being sarcastic (with the "that's our only task about this event, as a marketing team"). > Marketing and public relations are two different things. Intel > certainly doesn't have the same team doing both public relations > and marketing. yeah we all know they're not the same. but they're very related, and we don't have a public relations team. > I can understand you're frustrated by the response here. I think > you've made that pretty clear. :-) However, if you want an > effective response I think we can do that with GNOME Journal or > mail journalists who might be interested about the affair. i'll see what i can do; thanks. > Yes, it raises our profile, yes it's public relations but I think we > can do better. Guest column in a magazine, blog responses whatever. ok then; go ahead and do better. > Another thing you might consider is that the reaction people have to > your public letter might mirror the response from the slashdot crowd. > Although thats arguable. :-) i don't see why; my letter was not even 1% as trollish as linus' statements. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> What was Coke's response to "The Pepsi Challenge", which trash-talked the > 'leading brand'? There wasn't one. They're above that. you said it already; they were so much bigger so it's different. > We > have encourage a culture of positivity, and that's how we should approach > this situation too! i really don't see the negativity what i wrote, i don't know... i'm sorry if it sounded like that, but i really don't see it. > I understand what you're saying, but I think we need to approach it fairly > differently to the mail you sent... ok maybe you're right (which means maybe i'm wrong). it's just that i had only gotten nos with no alternative proposal so far, but you have a point and a plan, and i respect it. hope it goes great, please keep the list informed, and thanks for the reply. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> I don't think it is pointless to make an official > statement from GNOME about this, but I don't think your proposal is the > right way to go about it. of course i could be wrong; no problem with that. > Equally, I don't believe your sentence-by-sentence combative response helps > your case. i'm sorry if i sounded like that, it must be the hour plus past frustrations in this list. i better go to sleep, and sorry again. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> If your enthusiasm may kill in one day what we are trying to build in > years, the least we could do is to warn you. it's not because of "one day", but because of the absolute lack of interest in key issues i see here. > As far as I know we are only stopping from puting GNOME in your signature. i already said it was not important: i wasn't trying to put gnome in my signature, but put gnome marketing team and NOT my signature. it doesn't matter who wrote it, what it needs is backing. > Ask yourself why is so important for you to keep it there. backing is important because if a letter doesn't have any, it won't get read, no matter the contents. > Ask yourself why aren't you asking if the board or any other high > profile GNOME member has contacted Linus yet. because my main concern wasn't talking to linus, but "talking" to the audience who already heard linus. i don't give a damn about what linus thinks of gnome, but i do give a damn about him trashing our image in public. > How can you keep avoiding the fact that "The Foundation will act as an > official voice for the GNOME project" (http://foundation.gnome.org/), so i'm sure they have published something already, and i missed it, right? btw how much have they published in the last year, as the "official voice"? > Leading a marketing action like the one you are proposing in the context > of our structure and our history as organisation would be considered > possibly wrong by most authors of these books. you're speaking as if i had written an insulting letter to the guy. > You can help changing this structure and history in > order to improve them and allow marketing actions like this in a near > future. and how do you plan to do that, exactly? > My recommendation: go to sleep, take a shower, read back all this thread > and take not-hot conclusions. Linus can wait one day to be convinced > isn't it? again, i wasn't trying to convince linus; how many times did i already say my focus was on our brand image? > I'm just > suggesting you take out "GNOME Marketing Team" from your signature. again, that wasn't an issue. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> Sorry mate, but you (or me) sending an email to Linus discused only here > in less than 24h is not that constructive to the GNOME project and > community, not even to ourselves. well maybe i was bluffing with the 24 hour thing :P, i don't know, but it had to be discussed asap if it was to be done. but now we don't have to worry about it, cause nothing will ever get done (yay!). > This shot aready caught us, > constructivism is to build a system to dal with future shots to come. and with our current pace and strategy (or lack thereof), that will happen like... never. feel like betting? > Nobody is saying we donpt want to repair this. yeah of course, i'm sure we do. gnome has done everything within its power in order to repair their image before end users: private responses in a developers-only list, and... oh wait, there's nothing else. > And > "strategy" is what I miss in you proposal, as I'm trying to expose with > a several bunch of arguments. which i'm responding one by one. > Your proposal would fit better in a stronger marketing strategy if you > would be convincing us to make your text or an improved version of it be > sent by Luis, Jeff, Miguel, Owen or one of the high profiles in our > community ... yeah well i thought of that in the first place, but seeing our nonexisting communication channels with those guys, i quickly discarded the idea. so i thought "gnome marketing team" (if we had agreed to send it "officially") would have sounded more authoritative than nothing; certainly not as good as having the big guys behind, but again better than nothing. but i forgot we don't do public relations, just like we don't do anything marketing-related. > Besides, I'm not saying yiu shouldn't send this message to Linus and all > the websites you wish. I'm only saing you shouldn't include GNOME in > your signature. it was just a signature; i couldn't care less. that's not the problem here; problem is that without any kind of "corporate" backup, it would be just another email amongst the hundreds that linus must have received. so why bother? > the true is that today you > can't (nor me) speak to Linus or whoever in the name of GNOME. i said gnome marketing team, not gnome or gnome foundation or gnome whatever. but it seems like the gnome marketing team can't even speak in the name of the gnome marketing team; we are THAT meaningful. > And we won't change this on a rushed late night debate. as a matter of fact it seems like we won't change anything here, no matter the hour. > Sorry if I can't continue with this thread, a deadline is byting my butt. no problem, none of us cared anyway, not to mention it's 3 am and i'm falling apart (so please forgive the typos i must have made :P). -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> Feel free to write Linus but please don't put any GNOME reference in > your signature in order to avoid (more) confusion. It is you who is > writing to Linus, not GNOME. ok i won't, btw i wasn't trying to confuse anyone, but who cares anyway? thanks to the list for pretty much killing my enthusiasm with all this over-the-top fear to linus and fantastic stop energy. > At a Marketing Team level I think it's useful to discuss why a potential > user (like Linus seems to be) has this perception about GNOME ... yeah you're right, that's our only task about this event, as a marketing team. marketing doesn't have a thing to do with public relations, how could i get that wrong? i'll just ask for a refund on all those books... > For instance, with all this issue what I've missed is the possibility of > posting an answer in a news section in the gnome.org homepage ... you mean a clear, simple, informative, and non-confrontational answer, like the one i just wrote? oh wait... that's the one we shouldn't be using, because something something. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> What exactly is it that you think that the marketing team can > accomplish in this discussion that mailing list posts from jeff waugh > and havoc pennington, hundreds of impassioned posts on slashdot, and > hundreds of impassioned posts on blogs (totally ignoring the nearly > four years of discussion behind this) have not already done? many things, as a matter of fact: - coverage: linus' rant had its own slashdot story, jeff's and havoc's responses didn't. i guess for each 100 people who read the story, 2 went to the mailing list archives and checked for the responses. - seriousness: a calm, logical, non-controversial response will always look more convincing than hundreds of "impassioned posts", which btw only get read by 10% (or so) of the people who read the headline. - coherence: even a pseudo-official response would make our points sound more coherent than isolated mailing list replies, not to mention it'd get to people who doesn't know who havoc is. - exposure: it looks like a good opportunity for the marketing team to get some public appearance, and at the same time start to take care of real marketing issues, like public relations. i guess i could try to add more, but it seems like you no one cares much anyway, so whatever. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> what exactly is it that you think that yet another round of discussion > on this topic will accomplish? well, it's marketing (or to be exact, public relations) 101... you (as an organization) don't just shut up when someone trashes your image. go write a high-profile article trashing coca-cola or intel or whatever big brand, and see if their public relations department stays quiet... "he who keeps silent, consents". those brands i mentioned would never do that, but we do because we're so much smarter than they are, and we know much more than them about public image building... oh god. anyway, i guess there's no point in discussing marketing issues in a list that couldn't care less about what marketing means. isn't that just sad, or am i being too pesimistic tonight? -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> I said we should be going through the common criticisms and > *communicating* the decisions behind them. See I said it again ;-) communicating them where and to whom? in our website, which has 100x times less traffic than that slashdot news that pretty much burned us? that means external communication to you? sorry, i should have said "1% focused in communicational issues", not "0%" :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> You're certainly welcome to send whatever response you want, but I'd > suggest that there are many better things to do than respond directly > to Linus. cool then; message acknowledged. i now understand that we're a marketing team that thinks: - our brand's image isn't too big of a deal, and we should just stay arms crossed if people trashes it in public with inaccurate statements. - external communications, no matter how polite and non-controversial, are a waste of time because they aren't "constructive". - trying to take advantage of a particular event that hurt our brand, in order to "repair" it in public, is another waste of time. that's such an innovative approach on marketing! so innovating it contradicts everything i've ever been taught in college, and everything i've ever read... so i guess it must be way better. these are the times when i finallly understand why we are incapable of doing anything more complex (marketing-wise) than plain meaningless advertising. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> Which to my mind is completely different from calling beginners as idiots. what kind of user is more likely to be confused by extra functionality? a begginer or an expert? yes, a begginer. and linus called those users idiots, ergo he called begginers idiots. > A better approach would be go through many of the common criticisms > systematically and communicate which of these are design issues or bugs. yes that is ANOTHER thing that should be done. but you seem to be 100% focused in development issues, and 0% in communicational issues... and this is the marketing list. in marketing, you don't just need to do things right; you need to communicate it effectively... i don't think we're doing things as badly as linus says, and i'd like to communicate that. that doesn't stop developers from fixing specific problems with gnome; does it? so why do we have to choose between one or the other? > Linus is far from the only person having the same opinions so > avoid targeting anyone in particular ... but he received 100x more press coverage than all the previous ones, which means he damaged our image 100x more. if you think we shouldn't do anything about high profile people trashing our image, one of us really has to check what marketing is (hint: it's not me :) ). -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
> He was subscribed to the OSDL desktop architects list which he later > stated on the same thread that he had believed to be private when > posting the message. but he cced gnome-usability... anyway, i can rephrase that if it's way too inaccurate. > I dont think be implied that absolute beginners to be idiots which > breaks down the whole message. linus said gnome's mentality was "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality"... does it really sound like he's talking about advanced users? > I would suggest working on whatever > issues needs to be addressed as the same thread has pointed out ... those two things aren't mutually exclusive, are they? we don't have to choose between one or the other; as a matter of fact the response is already written. > rather > than sounding defensive on open letters cool, we should just let everyone trash our image in every single website on earth, because that's not relevant to us. what are we after all? the gnome marketing team? :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
response to linus...?
i couldn't help writing a response to linus (about the kde thing), so here you have it. i'm sending it to him (and as many websites as i can) in 24 hours or so, so i'd really want you guys to tell me what you think about it asap (especially about that foreigner's grammar :P). before someone says "let's not start a flamewar!", let me point out that my response is extremely polite, and has zero chance of offending anyone. it just raises a couple valid points, which should be heard imho. of course i hope the list to support my response, but if that doesn't happen i'll still have to do it on my own (i don't know, it just feels right). and even if you're not big fans of the idea, before you make a choice let me just say that ... - any response will raise gnome's profile. - any response from the marketing team (or one of its supposed members :P) will raise the gnome marketing team's profile. - a reasonable response (like i think this one is) will help to reduce the negative effects of linus' statements. - a non-aggressive response (like this one) will help to prevent kde vs gnome flamewars. oh and btw, i haven't forgotten about collecting reviews from the linus-gnome affair... i'll do it within this weekend i guess. greetings! -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** RESPONSE - START *** As everyone must have read, recently Linus Torvalds posted a message in a mailing list (GNOME Usability), saying that the GNOME desktop environment had a mentality of "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality", so he "personally just encourages people to switch to KDE". Before I start, let me just say that I have nothing against Linus, and far from that I greatly respect him as the brilliant engineer I think he is. Neither do I have anything against KDE, which I think is another excellent alternative for a Free desktop. But as a proud GNOME user, and a proud member of the GNOME Marketing Team, I beg to disagree with his claims. Although some of his observations sound valid (and I hope they will be implemented in future versions), I think he's missing the point completely. First of all, I don't think GNOME is only targeted at absolute begginers (whom Linus implicitly calls "idiots"), but to everyone who wants a usable, clean looking, and (most of all) simple desktop. I have to admit that sometimes you just can't please everyone, but yet I think we're getting a little closer to that with every new release. But of course, that's just my opinion. Luckily, there are also some strong facts that support my point: if GNOME was only for "idiots", I doubt it'd be the default desktop for today's most popular distro (Ubuntu), or for one of the best selling enterprise distros in the whole world (Red Hat). Are all those users just "idiots"? I doubt so... My second point questions the very logic of Linus' reasoning. He implies that absolute begginers are "idiots", automatically linking intellectual capacity to computer skills... a link that has yet to be proven (or so says science). No matter what Linus think, there is no reason to assume that people with little computer skills must be dumb: many of them are doctors, artists, scientists, or intellectuals, amongst other professions that could hardly be mastered by "idiots"... they just don't care much about computers, just like Linus must not care much about some of those areas of expertise. I know that sometimes we have the (bad) habit of correlating intelligence with "knowledge within a particular field": intellectuals say people who don't know Camus are stupid, basketball fans say people who don't know Michael Jordan are stupid... and Linus says computer begginers are stupid. But the fact that an idea is somewhat common doesn't make it any less wrong. So, to sum it up: is GNOME a desktop for absolute begginers? Yes, and we're very proud of that. Is it ONLY for absolute begginers? Not at all, and we're very proud of that aswell. And are absolute begginers "idiots"? No of course they're not, and we better stop treating them like that, if we really want Free / Open Source software to reach mainstream status. Santiago Roza GNOME Marketing Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** RESPONSE - END *** As everyone must have read, recently Linus Torvalds posted a message in a mailing list (GNOME Usability), saying that the GNOME desktop environment had a mentality of "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality", so he "personally just encourages people to switch to KDE". Before I start, let me just say that I have nothing against Linus, and far from that I greatly respect him as the brilliant engineer I think he is. Neither do I have anything against KDE, which I t
Re: slashdot: linus says "use kde"
> And thanks again to Santiago for collecting the negative reviews. Maybe > this will give his work more "oomph" in some people's minds? btw, i'll try to summarize all online comments about this linus/kde thing. from what i've read so far, they seem to have a couple valid points we shouldn't be ignoring. i just hope someone (especially developers) will read it this time! :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
On 12/14/05, Thilo Pfennig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So, we never get people to install and use GNOME. no, at least not if "people" are windows end users. > If we do not want > that, why do we considering working with a GNOME brand? because the fact that we're not an end user final product doesn't mean we're not a product at all, or a brand. > So GNOME is Ubuntu and/or Fedora Core. no, it's a desktop environment, which currently exists by default in ubuntu and fedora core (amongst other minor distros). > So we should push these brands? > We have to if we want success by the way of distros. not directly, but it wouldn't be bad if we pushed the "desktop linux" brand, alongside with many other parties (kde, ubuntu, etc). > So, what are we really discussing here? Marketing a non-existing > product? Sounds strange to me! :-) i repeat: the fact that we're not an end user final product doesn't mean we're not a product at all. we are a product, but more in the line of intel (like someone said) than the line of firefox. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: slashdot: linus says "use kde"
> I'm not sure if processing feedback will be sufficient. no existing task is "sufficient" on its own, but there are many productive steps we could take. and definitely, processing feedback won't have any use unless developers do something about that feedback. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: slashdot: linus says "use kde"
> As jdub would roughly put it "Don't Panic". well i never said we should panic, but it's something we should be keeping an eye on. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
slashdot: linus says "use kde"
oh god... http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/13/1340215 -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Please sit down before reading this, and take a deep breath.
> But "GNOME" also means "gnome", i.e. a small, dumpy, cutesy-stupid type > fellow. Following Murray's repeated points about brand association, is > that the type of image we want? well maybe it's not the type of image we want, but imho it's way too late to change that name: it's been 8 years since the gnome project was started, and our brand awareness is very high amongst the free software community. so it'd have to be a fatal reason for us to change that name, and this one doesn't sound like that. anyway, i don't think anyone cares much about this, considering the success of other free software projects with weird names, like wine or the lame encoder. > By the way, Santiago, I think collecting negative reviews is incredibly > useful. well, it doesn't look too useful when that collection doesn't get to the people who should be reading it :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: collecting negative reviews
> I don't think this is of much value to the developers. They do tend to > read web site comments when we do major releases, so reiterating the > comments doesn't help them much. i don't know which developers do read this stuff and which ones don't, so this list was supposed to be a summary of all that. it wasn't just "reiterating the comments" but compiling them; what i read was 100x bigger than my list. > Some analysis of what opinions are > representative, and/or what leads people to these opinions, might be > useful, but that's a big job that would normally happen over at > usability@gnome.org, and would normally involve two-way communication > with users. i think there was some of that analysis in my compilation (i didn't just paste everything), but there weren't many ways to achieve two-way communication with the people who posted these suggestions / complaints / etc. > Most of the stuff at the end of this list is outlying stuff that does > not belong in any overview. and that's why i put that in the end and labeled it "not so common and/or relevant" :) > If this process is going to work in future, I guess that developers > would like to see > - Top 3 major negative perceptions. (and maybe which of our "target > markets"/personas those affect most) i've included a top 5; is that too much? about the markets/personas, well... most of these comments come from pretty much the same "persona" (young techie who reads sites like slashdot). -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> It's GNOME plus what GNOME needs to run. We do reverse major Ubuntu > changes such as browse-mode-as-default and Firefox-instead-of-epiphany, > and the theme, so it's a pretty pure GNOME experience. but what's the point of offering people a "pretty pure gnome experience" if real-life gnome (the one that comes with fedora or ubuntu) doesn't look and feel like that? i think we're pretty much obsessed with "the real gnome", but we need to accept that the real gnome is the one real people receive with real distros... -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> Perhaps we are getting too obsessed about this idea that people need to > test something before getting it. well, people like to test things that could f*ck up their computers beyond all recognition... and wether we like it or not, that's what could happen when you install a new operating system. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Please sit down before reading this, and take a deep breath.
> Oh! Then why do we capitalise it? Is it still an acronym? If so, what > do the letters stand for? who cares about that? several brands are usually spelled in uppercase, and that doesn't seem to undermine their popularity or acceptance... -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: gnome desktop personas - my very first draft
> Sorry to butt in here, but I am not sure of the value of this exercise. well, i was starting to question its value myself, considering we're basing those "personas" in preconceptions and our limited personal experience with users, instead of carefully collected data. i guess that questioning is why i haven't added a line in the last few days :) on the other hand, maybe it COULD be a valuable tool (but nothing more than that), at least for making (supposed) target markets look like something more "living". > True, but more tellingly, where is the utility of describing a "segment" that > doesn't exist? preconceptions can be based in real-life data, not collected systematically maybe, but actual empirical observation. i mean, personas will not be scientific, but they don't necessarily have to be worthless. i agree this shouldn't be the way to "build" our target markets, but it could be an interesting way to picture them (and not much more than that). > Sorry to pour cold water on your creative urges, Santiago (and by all > means feel free to ignore my comments!) no problem; i always prefer the truth :) anyway, i had my concerns about this idea too, so it's not like those "urges" were so vibrant. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: gnome desktop personas - my very first draft
> I missed media usage in your personas (or more general: ways to contact > these personas). yeah well i said it was a first draft :) > Oh, and you do need names (and if possible images) yeah you're right, but don't ask me for images cause i can't draw. anyway, we can think of that later i guess. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> You are absolutely right. That's what i am always saying. We need > GNOME out there. Either we should make out own distribution or ... for the love of god, no :) creating and maintaining and supporting a distro is an enourmous task, and we don't have the resources for that (nor we want to use them in something that isn't our "job"). i even think we shouldn't have our own live cd... why encourage people to test-drive something they can't get? that qualifies as a false promise too, and we want to avoid those, don't we? if we encourage people to try something, we should drive them to real-life products (like ubuntu and fedora core), not synthetic creations that only exist in our minds. > Yes and no. I agree that running the Gnome Live CD will give them the > feel of Gnome, but technically, what they're trying is Ubuntu (plus some > hacks), not "Gnome". because ideal-abstract-gnome doesn't exist in real life, at least not as an end user product. and we should be ok with that; believing we're an end user product might trigger crazy ideas like creating and supporting our very own distro :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> Gnome is not like Firefox. End users can see an ad for Firefox, decide > that it's cool, download it, install it, and go. But end users can't > download and install "Gnome". i agree 100%; that's why i always say we have yet to agree on our target markets, and our marketing strategy. > How would we tell users to install > GNOME if we had a New York Times ad? Would we pick a preferred distro? > We can't sell ourselves directly to end users. We need to sell ourselves > to Linux distros, and get them to sell *themselves* to end users. we can't sell ourselves directly to NON-LINUX end users, because linux end users can just "install gnome" (so we can sell directly to them). if we want to sell ourselves to non-linux end users, we'd have to market it as "linux desktop" (not as gnome), working together with kde and the distros (but that would be a whole new different marketing operation). > We're > not like Firefox, we're like Intel! [Cue "Intel Inside" chimes] that would be great. i mean, having ubuntu and fedora post a little "gnome inside" (or "powered by gnome") logo in their websites. do you guys think we could nag them about that (with the kind collaboration of our gnome celebrities)? ;) > We could apply the same technique: convince end users that GNOME is > better for them, so that they will preferentially install distros that > use GNOME, so that distros (our real customers) will use GNOME as their > preferred desktop. yes, if you mean linux end users. non-linux end users will not demand gnome, because they don't know what gnome is... and if they did, that knowledge wouldn't be so strong to cause a "demand". it could be, but only if we had the millions to push our brand to that level :) > Intel only markets itself to end users because its > products *aren't* any better than its competitors'. If their chips were > unambiguously better than AMDs, then the PC manufacturers wouldn't need > to be convinced to stay with Intel, it would just be the obvious choice. that doesn't apply to us: there are objective ways to measure which processor is better, but a desktop's quality is something very very subjective. so we have much more things to do, other than just "convincing" anyone. > (And what are we going to convince end users of anyway? ... GNOME isn't a > whole story unto > itself. "Desktop Linux" is the story, but that's not a story we can tell > on our own.) and there's the key to our marketing strategy... we're not exactly a (non-linux) end user product, so if we market ourselves to (non-linux) end users, we should be very careful. imagine we convince a windows user to try gnome; can we actually deliver? we could with vmware player (but we still don't have images), we could with colinux (if it just worked), we could with live cds (if the distro detected all the hardware and could play a simple mp3). as we can see, we depend on many others to deliver to windows end-users, so we either fix those many problems ourselves (and/or working alongside with those other parties), or don't make end users a promise we can't keep (i repeat: in marketing a false promise is a brand killer). marketing ourselves to other audiences is a whole new issue, so maybe we don't want to discuss it here :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> I'm going to pimp http://www.colinux.org/ even though I've never used it > and don't have w32. It looks to my naive eyes that it could be as simple > as adding another kernel and a bit of runtime to a live CD. i've tried colinux on win32, and believe me, it's FAR from "just working". a real average user will dump it in 2 minutes, because after the default install you need to read documentation and configure stuff (especially networking) before you're able to play with it. if it just worked, it'd be a great tool to test-drive gnome. i wish i could contribute to that, but it seems like i lack some technical skills =( -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: How interested in promoting GTK apps? [was Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?]
i think we shouldn't be promoting gtk apps in order to boost the gnome
brand, because:
- real-life gnome desktops (like ubuntu or fedora core) default to
openoffice.org, and sometimes they don't even INCLUDE "gnome office"
(abiword, gnumeric, etc)... so in the dubious case we actually get
people to try gnome (via ubuntu and/or fedora), they won't find those
gnome apps there. in marketing, a fake promise is a serious
brand-killer... and we don't want to kill our brand, do we? :)
- even if they would find those apps in a real-life gnome desktop (and
they won't), is that what's to push in our brand? are we an isolated
word processor (or a spreadsheet) in a foreign environment, or an
integrated solution? how much of that "integrated solution" will they
see with abiword running on win32? imho, little to nothing...
it would be good to have abiword (and gnumeric and gimp etc) relating
themselves a bit more to gnome ("brought to you by the gnome desktop",
"a proud component of the gnome desktop", or something like that)...
the same way it would be good to have ubuntu or fedora relating to us
a bit more. but we can't build much based on that.
--
Santiago Roza
Departamento I+D - Thymbra
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
marketing-list mailing list
marketing-list@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Desktop personas (draft)
> If you think of a bell population, you have > 80% within two standard deviations (I think?). yeah 80% is good; what i don't want is personas who're so individual and pretty and unique :) that they don't reflect the userbase at all. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Desktop personas (draft)
> Usability and > marketing are totally different things, and of course you're going to > need different tools for them. err... no. usability has everything to do with users' needs and expectations, and that has everything to do with marketing. but usability and advertising are totally different things, i agree with that. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
gnome desktop personas - my very first draft
i started to draft a few characteristics of my "personas"; please tell me what you think. remember it's VERY conceptual, they don't even have names yet :) i didn't know if we should picture only our core segments, or a more general scenario, so i took the middle road... but this will have a zillion iterations i guess, so feel free to suggest. * teenager (17) high school student has a girlfriend intensive email (personal) intensive im (msn) basic web browsing: pr0n and flash games (+webmail) some office usage for school cellphone camera + cheap usb mp3 player + playstation2 uses p2p for music basic-medium (windows) computer skills zero free software awareness * young techie (28) windows programmer (visual studio) single and looking intensive email (work, personal) intensive im (several networks) intensive web browsing (even runs a blog) medium-intensive office usage for work high-range cellphone + ipod uses p2p for music + an occasional movie big cd/dvd collection advanced (windows) computer skills medium free software awareness * not-so-young techie (46) editor of tech section in major newspaper married, two kids intensive email (work) basic im (work) medium-high web browsing (news, research) intensive office usage for work mid-range cellphone + pda does not use p2p medium cd/dvd collection medium-high computer skills (some unix background) low-medium free software awareness * not-so-young non-techie (51) has a small business divorced, three kids basic email (with some ppt presentations) zero im basic web browsing (news) intensive office usage for work does not use p2p small cd/dvd collection basic (windows) computer skills zero free software awareness * young non-techie (34) graphic designer (photoshop, illustrator) married, one kid medium email (personal, some work) medium im (personal) basic web browsing (news, recommended sites) medium office usage for work does not use p2p huge cd/dvd collection (artsy type, loves music) basic (windows) computer skills (advanced for specific apps) zero free software awareness -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Desktop personas (draft)
> Does that make sense? no it doesn't :) at least from a marketing point of view, you can't ask me to "forget trying to cover my userbase"... that's suicidal; we'd be telling anecdotes, not segmenting anything. before this weekend i'll try to come up with something in the middle of those two undesirable extremes (too-generic and non-representative), and post it here too see what you guys think. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Desktop personas (draft)
> If the show is interesting why not. then we'll have to make it interesting :) > We can't compromise to put it on > schedule now of course i wasn't expecting that of course; a fair chance is more than enough. > depending on the approach you would give to the project and the talk. well, i hope i'll get a lot of feedback from the list, with this being a marketing team project, so the approach is negotiable :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Desktop personas (draft)
%> I disagree. What you're doing is creating living, breathing characters > which represent your target audiences. yeah, and i agree with this of course. what i don't like is the idea of creating "living" characters, at the cost of making them A LOT less representative of your target audience. for example, alex replaced marcus' typical teenager with someone who uses openoffice, firefox and gaim... that must be like 5% of 18-year-olders (who have computers), with the other 95% not even knowing that alternatives to ms office, internet explorer and msn messenger actually EXIST. alex's "persona" is very alive and all, but 95% non-representative... and i don't want that, because we're not writing a novel but segmenting our markets. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Desktop personas (draft)
> I think it is. Ideally, we could go into real depth on the personas and > how they might interact with GNOME (and also how GNOME doesn't suit > them), and do a smashing presentation of the results at GUADEC or some > other conference, to generate a feedback cycle. my two restrictions were relevance and time: if it could be shown at guadec or something like that, and we don't need it for this week, i'll gladly take care of it. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Desktop personas (draft)
> if you follow Cooper (and I'm not exactly sure > how personas are supposed to apply to marketing), you're not trying to > define a target audience per se. What you're doing is actual > characterisation, as a novelist might do then maybe we don't have to follow cooper strictly, because we might end up with something we can't use for marketing purposes. i haven't read the book (but i did read all the links), and i think this could be a valuable tool for describing target segments in an informal and attractive way, and then figuring out their needs, all within a flexible structure (which stimulates the flow of ideas). but if we try to be 100% strict with cooper and build "live" not-stereotypical characters, each one of our "personas" will cover 1% of our potential market, which means it'll be a useless tool. anyway, i'll try to write something before this weekend, and then throw it in the wiki to see what happens. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Desktop personas (draft)
cool... could you throw it in the wiki so we can build on it? i'd do it myself, but i don't think i should appear as the original author :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> Well, I hope our community isn't so bad as that one would expect > insults and ridicule when giving critical feedback! :P no not at all, it was just a joke. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2002-December/msg00482.html > So - who wants to take this on? (don't be shy) this sounds interesting, but it also sounds like dozens of hours of work... and unluckily i can't afford to waste that kind of time until we have decent channels of communication with the developers. and i say "waste" not because i don't think the job is interesting, but because i'm afraid it'll end up in the (gnome :P) trashcan just like the 2.12 feedback list. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> Consensus might not be desirable for the marketing team. On some things, > sure - but we will need people acting as individuals, with all their > quirks, as long as we're on the same page and all working. i meant consensus on objectives, basic strategy, and a couple more things, not killing everyone's criterion :) > Roughly designated target markets exist already. While you don't think > there's a huge concensus around these, I disagree. yes we know there are many possible segments, but we haven't agreed on which ones to focus on. > Grand. What would you like to do, then? all those things i wrote in my first email and their followups; basically changing our focus from advertising to real marketing. but again, i can't do that alone, since i like to see this as a team. there's no point in me working on a marketing strategy, if the rest of the team thinks that's a minor detail we shouldn't be wasting time with, while there are much more important things like advertising gnome (no matter gnome's positioning) to "the people" (no matter who the people are), ignoring external users' feedback because those are just meaningless gripes :) > What do you want out of the GNOME marketing team? What are you doing to > get towards that goal? i want us to be the ones who collect users' feedback, process it, pass it to developers in effective ways, and restart the process with each release. and of course, the ones who analyse gnome's strenghts and weaknesses (either real or perceived) in relation to users' needs, and design a brand strategy based on that. then we can design a comunicational strategy, in order to "advertise" effectively (and with a sound basis). what i am doing towards that goal? well first i'm trying to get as many of us as possible behind my proposal, and then i guess i could be contributing with most of those tasks. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> not particularly. It's beautiful to a very strange niche. a very strange niche... that seems to be a bigger userbase than ours :( anyway, i wasn't saying kde looks good (cause it doesn't imho), but it does focus on "pretty with no other purpose", while we don't. so we shouldn't be pushing that concept, cause that would be suicidal positioning :) > It looks to me like "Friendly" is the more popular of the simple themes, > and one that clearly overlaps with various of the aims for our software > and community. why can't a theme have two words/concepts? we could use elegant/cool AND easy/friendly in our slogans, with many different combinations of words (for example, "simple" reflects both concepts). > Please do try to mention URLs when referring to something you've published > previously. It gives us another chance to respond to it. you're right; i was sure i had posted it, but seems like i hadn't. here it is anyway, just in case: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2005-September/msg00067.html > I vaguely remember that I didn't bother responding because it seemed to be > a very random sample of osnews-commenters pet gripes that weren't likely > to be of interest to many other users. well let me disagree; i found many of them to be valid suggestions, especially the top 5. > I'm sorry for > not commenting on it at first. i'm not saying everyone is obligued to comment on every single message, but that "job" was asked in this list (by luis villa i recall) and many people said "yeah, someone should do it"... http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2005-September/msg00056.html but when the requested results were there, we didn't do anything with them (not even the people who asked for that info in the first place). > There was a usability review team that did this periodically, but it's not > very active now that it's fixed the big problems. then we should do it; collecting (and transmitting) feedback is an integral part of marketing. > Very few people are doing anything, and very few people are offering > leadership or strategy, so lack of coordination is not a problem at the > moment. Suggestions such as Dave's are a very good start and something > worth helping with. then let's come up with a strategy/direction, all of us together. > At this point, I really think there isn't much wrong with the product > (beyond new features that are being done as quickly as possible), and the > users who discover it are loving it. yeah i don't think there's much "wrong" with gnome either, but those little things people gripe about should get fixed, and i'm sure there are other things people want but we don't have (and those aren't exactly bugs, but still...). > I think we need to let the rest know > about it. This is not a new product that needs a lot of analysis in the > design stages. we need to do that, and many other things i already said. agree on who's "the rest", how we could appeal to them, and design catchy slogans based on that, and on what gnome is (elegant/cool and simple/usable). > If it's great, then you don't need to do much about that. maybe it's great for you and me, but not for everyone. then we need to find out what they find not-so-great, and what to do about it. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
x27;t asking for direction but endorsement for particular actions. > How good is our feedback loop? What Santiago is saying, if I understand > correctly, is that right now we don't seem to have one, and one would be > nice. that's exactly what i was saying: if we have no effective channel to deliver the feedback we gather, towards the ones who should be getting it (developers), what's the point in collecting that feedback? > > * There's no way to break to circle: No data -> No target (market) -> > > No data -> > > We have lots of data. Every GNOME release, we get data. So far, we've > simply had no way to analyse, synthesis and transmit that data to the > people who need to get it. This is the most important job the marketing > community must do. i couldn't agree more. problem is that when we had that data, nothing was done with it :( > > Activity on mailing lists and bugzilla is the best way to do that. And > > getting to know the developers involved :) > > Right, but mailings lists and bugzilla are not the best interface for > newcomers. no that's not our main problem... mailing lists and bugzilla aren't the best interface not only for newcomers, but also for a team like ours. so you say we should just file a simple bug, after we've collected and processed the information? the marketing team's output should have a much better and much more direct channel, and i think we have the tools to build it (but we just don't care). > People like Santiago > may hear from us through rss feeds and planets, and any other web based > interface with a proper structure & layout, and a reasonable usability. i can handle bugzilla; thank you :) i just don't think it's the proper channel for anything other summing up a bunch of individual suggestions / complaints, and i'd expect our output to be much more than that. > Most of us are primarly > involved in other parts of the project, we love this corner of GNOME but > we spend time and energies when we have them. i never demanded time from anyone; i'd never demand something i can't give either, and even less to people who contribute to gnome much more than i do. i just asked for some consensus to build a strategy, and endorsement for some particular actions... doesn't sound very time-consuming :) > Our current objectives and strategy have been mainly individual. well that doesn't sound like a team to me :) individual uncoordinated efforts can be worse than nothing: if i go in one direction and you go in the exact opposite, not only the net effect is zero, but we end up wasting time and effort, which equals to lack of motivation. i'd rather see one step in a coherent direction (decided by consensus of course), than one hundred individual uncoordinated steps. > we have a great product: GNOME. Many marketing teams are just in the > opposite solution: as a team they are great and well organised but they > need to sell crap. > > I much prefer our situation. sadly, maybe i'd prefer the other. an organized marketing team with a crappy product could find out what's wrong, come up with ways to fix it, get those things fixed, come up with a new branding strategy, and then advertise the product (and 6 = profit!!! :P). we, on the other hand, have a great product but can't do much about it, at least within our current situation :( -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> Perhaps i'm thinking too simple about this, but we do have quite some > user groups, and those user groups go to quite some conventions. first of all we'd have to define our target market, then see if those people fit in our target market. personally, i think "hardcore free software advocates who even go to free software conventions" might not be "average users", if that's what we're trying to target. -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
> Well said, and I concur. cool! one reply, and it wasn't an insult! :P > I suspect the reason we are doing what we are doing is because > we have no concrete ideas on how to find out what people want. i, on the other hand, suspect we're doing what we're doing because we have no concrete idea on who "people" are, nor we feel like settling that :) it'd be great if we would discuss the pros and cons of targeting different markets (or niches, to be more precise), considering our objectives (spreading gnome). for example: - journalists (couldn't help it, being one myself): tough nuts to crack, but they can reach thousands. - distro team leaders: even tougher nuts to crack, but we could at least focus on convincing the ones that are using gnome already, to give it proper credit. for this, we'd need more than effort and good intentions, but the endorsement of some HUGE names (i'm thinking the board of directors + rms if we're really lucky). and if they refuse, WE should use their brands in our site (like "ubuntu is powered by gnome"). - hackers/developers/geeks/whatever (one of google's tactics, like someone said before). - and so on ... but until we figure out where to target our marketing efforts, i don't see much of a point in making those efforts. there's so many more things i'd like to discuss, but i think this is a good start. > I think a well worded critique is probably a good to have once > in awhile to determine our progress and whether we are on the > right track. well worded? cool, i was afraid my sloppy english would get in the way :) > I'm happy to hear that GNOME Journal is reaching out to people > and is clearly an excellent marketing tool. well, i think it got to it through newsforge or slashdot or something like that, but still... -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
real marketing or just catchy slogans?
[ short intro (aka "who the heck is this guy?"): my name is santiago roza, i'm 25 and i live in argentina, i have a business-oriented academic background (business administration) with a tech-oriented professional background (i work as a tech consultant, and write a column for a tech magazine here in argentina), and of course i'm a strong supporter of free software ] i'm writing this email because i'm not sure i like the direction we're following, and i'd like to explain why. like many others (i assume), i joined this list after reading john williams' "marketing gnome", an article i still find truly inspiring: http://gnomejournal.org/article/26/marketing-gnome let me quote what i found to be the key paragraph: "marketing is not about convincing people to buy (or use) your product or service. That is selling. Marketing is about matching the output of your organization to the demands of the (chosen) market. Put another way, marketing is about finding out what people want, and then giving it to them [and then communicating that, i would add]." in the 5-6 months i've been here, i haven't seen much of "finding out what people want", and even less of "giving it to them", but 99% of "communicating that" (unluckily we don't even know what is "that", and who are "them"). in other words, i haven't seen much marketing in gnome-marketing: - about "finding out what people want", not only i haven't seen one action oriented to that, but when i compiled (on luis villa's request) a list of issues in gnome 12's negative reviews, no one seemed to care or even had an opinion. - about "giving it to them", i haven't seen much contact between this list and the gnome developers, something i consider a critical issue, but again no one seems to care about. and i'm not even sure that issues list was passed on to the developers (and if it was, i didn't read anything about it). and this week we're thinking of catchy slogans (for the nth time)... ok that's necessary, but imho first we should try to find out what people think of gnome, what people want from gnome, what people like about gnome, what they dislike, what do we have (either real or imaginary) that other desktops don't... and btw who the heck are "the people" (do we want to target developers or decision makers or kde end users or win end users or who??). in other words, i'd like to see more marketing, and less selling/advertising... at least until we know what we have, what customers need, and what we could do to offer that to them (not to mention finding out who "they" are). well, that's pretty much it. i'd like to know if i'm the only one here concerned about these issues, and even if i am, what's your opinion about my rant :) greetings! -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME's Target Markets
> creating the future
i liked this one the most; i think it could be incredibly powerful to
attract those cool hackers we were talking about.
i'm thinking something like "come build the future with us", with some
short explanation of the slogan ("come ... with us" meaning this is
built by a community, and "the future" meaning major distros
-especially enterprise distros- are standardizing on gnome...
something we're not advertising enough, imho).
> For now, what do we have that's simple and
> cool, that they can't get on Windows?
> - Workspaces?
> - etc
i think we shouldn't focus on what they can't get on windows, but on
what they DON'T get on windows. and that's another thing that we're
not advertising enough.
i mean read a pdf, burn a cd, open all kinds of archives, edit
images, download things via bittorrent, log on to any instant
messenger network, manage huge musical collections, open text
documents and spreadsheets, and browse the web securely... simple
day-to-day things you CAN do with windows, but only after downloading
and installing (and regularly updating) about 15 programs, which btw
are poorly integrated with the desktop.
"on the other hand, a plain out-of-the-box gnome installation can do
this and much more"... sounds appealing, doesn't it?
and there's one thing they CAN'T do on windows: forget about viruses,
spyware, trojans, worms, etc... gnome "is built on a secure foundation
[linux]" (i like my catchphrase :P), and that shows: we format and
reinstall when the world ends or something like that, not twice a year
;)
--
Santiago Roza
Departamento I+D - Thymbra
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
marketing-list mailing list
marketing-list@gnome.org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: .eu domain name.
if money isn't a problem, it's always a good idea to have every related domain redirected to your main site... if we don't take it, someone else will, and make it point to some pr0n site :) -- Santiago Roza Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Looking GNOME brochures
" At best, a native English speaker might replace gay -> happy " and even that has been highly unlikely for 30 years or so... this is so not an issue: "happy" is not even close to being a synonym of "gay". let me quote wiktionary: " Gay is almost exclusively used today in its homosexual and related senses ... The earlier uses of festive, colorful, bright can still be found but have fallen out of fashion " http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gay#Adjective -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://santiagoroza.blogspot.com/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: collecting negative reviews
- "Anyway, I think this might be a long term project which I hope someone will take on and regularly renew as we find more criticisms and misinformations/FUDs which we can gather and attempt to remedy" well, i think i can handle it. just throw me all the links to gnome reviews you guys find, and i'll process them. -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://santiagoroza.blogspot.com/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: It's a jungle out there
we already had python, c# (the monkey should be a bonobo i guess), java (although i'm not so sure about that parrot); and i had suggested c (gnu) and php (elephant). now i have some more: - we know perl's got a camel: http://perl.oreilly.com/usage/ - anjuta (gnome's c/c++ ide) uses a horse for its logo, so we could use that for c++ (providing we use the gnu for c) http://anjuta.sourceforge.net/ - (visual-basic-like) gambas, which also has gnome bindings, uses a shrimp: http://gambas.sourceforge.net/ - javascript is somewhat related to a well-known product like firefox (ok it's a long shot), so we could use its fox for that: http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/buttons.html - for delphi(/kylix/pascal) we could use freepascal's cheetah: http://www.freepascal.org/ - and for java, well, like i said i'm not so sure about that parrot, although i can't think of anything much better... what about jakarta tomcat's tomcat? http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/ expecting feedback... -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://santiagoroza.blogspot.com/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: It's a jungle out there
sounds cool, but we're gonna have a hard time finding animals for some languages. i'm not a programmer (or anything like that :) ), but i can think of php's unofficial "elephpant"... http://www.elroubio.net/?p=adopt_an_elephpant and maybe the fsf's gnu for c (because it's the main language for the linux kernel and the gnu apps, not to mention it's rms' language of choice) http://www.gnu.org/graphics/agnuhead.html On 9/13/05, Andreas Nilsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've been thinking of a web-campain the last days to promote the fact > that you can use a whole bunch of languages to develop your > GNOME-applications. C#, Python, Java, C++, C etc. > The idea is to present some popular languages with a short > introductionary text about the language and links to bindings, tutorials > etc. > > I've been playing with the idea to present every language as an animal > in the (language-)jungle. Mono is a monkey, Python is a snake etc. As I > know about zero programming, someone with knowledge in that area will > have to write some content. > I'll sit down tonight and see if I can come up with some nice mockups. > > What do you think. It would be really nice to turn some more developers > towards GNOME. > - Andreas > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://santiagoroza.blogspot.com/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: collecting negative reviews
It's done: I've read [almost] every single comment from the 2.12
release articles (including Slashdot and OSNews, which Travis was
going to cover... sorry Travis, I got carried away), and here's the
compiled list of complaints/suggestions/etc.
I guess someone (who has actual contact with them, unlike me) should
pass this to the development list as soon as possible, cause it's very
valuable information IMHO.
* GENERAL CRITICISMS/SUGGESTIONS: TOP 5
(common to most articles)
1) add full GNOME VFS support to all applications (especially GNOME apps)
2) optimize performance and memory footprint
3) Nautilus seems to be the most criticised GNOME app: many people say
it's slow (compared to Konqueror or Win Explorer), many complain about
not being able to type URLs in the File Selector/Manager (without
pressing Ctrl+L), many complain about not being able to (easily) turn
off the multi-window behaviour, and some others think it lacks
functionality (found in Konqueror or Win Explorer)
4) most people disliked the new menu editor; they suggest we bundle
SMEG (or something equally capable)
5) many many readers asked where to find updated packages for their
distribution; maybe we should work alongside with major distros to
have GNOME packages ready on release time (or make our own packages)
* OTHER GENERAL CRITICISMS/SUGGESTIONS:
(not so common and/or relevant)
- stability issues with xcompmgr (X Compositing Manager; it handles
transparency/shadows)
- doubts about the nature of the GNOME LiveCD ("what is it based on?"
- IMHO next time we should clearly state it's based on Ubuntu)
- complaints about certain lack of ACL functionality (some users
suggest that we should at least integrate Eiciel into Nautilus)
* CRITICISMS/SUGGESTIONS FROM SPECIFIC ARTICLES:
(and/or their comments)
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=11800
- incomplete/confusing API documentation
- add full front-end to the Bluetooth stack
- "phone and PDA syncing that actually works"
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=11788&limit=no&threshold=-1
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=11800&limit=no&threshold=-1
- easily open a terminal in the current directory (like the
nautilus-open-terminal add-on)
- "merge all settings into one single preferences application"
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/07/2329227&from=rss
- stability of multimedia software (especially Totem and the GStreamer
framework in general)
- some readers say their GNOME 2.12 "feels" faster due to 3D
acceleration; in the future we should think of some way to tell them
if it's turned on or not (to avoid these false impressions)
http://gnomedesktop.org/node/2391
- "spatial metaphor in GNOME broken and violated (eg: the file open
dialog is always navigational, never spatial)"
* ARTICLES WITH NO COMMENTS:
(or no interesting comments... or which comments I couldn't find
because I'm an idiot :P)
http://barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=05/09/07/191200
http://lwn.net/Articles/150676/
http://channels.lockergnome.com/linux/archives/20050907_gnome_212_released.phtml
http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=30291&category=software
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4356551088.html
http://digg.com/linux_unix/GNOME_2.12_Released
http://www.linuxparatodos.net/geeklog/article.php?story=20050908001403158
http://www.softwarelivre.org/news/4696
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?a=dl&s=50009562&f=174096756&x_id=1126212290&x_subject=GNOME+2.12+is+afoot&x_link=http://arstechnica.com&x_ddp=Y
http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/flameeyes/2005/08/25/gnome_2_12
http://news.softpedia.com/news/GNOME-Launches-GNOME-2-12-Desktop-7909.shtml
http://cofradia.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15041
http://www.techspot.com/news/18650-gnome-212-released.html
http://hardware.newsforge.com/newsvac/05/09/07/207230.shtml
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=danews.story&STORY=/www/story/09-07-2005/0004102090&EDATE=WED+Sep+07+2005,+01:13+PM
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050907/sfw131.html
http://www.linuxelectrons.com/article.php/20050907120839978
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/GNOME_Project_unveils_latest_version_of_Linux_and_Unix_desktop
http://br-linux.org/linux/?q=node/1715
http://www.softwarelivre.org/news/4696
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39217105,00.htm
http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/article.jsp?article_id=67998&cat_id=580
http://www.newsforge.com/newsvac/05/09/07/1546239.shtml
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1856185,00.asp
* ARTICLES IN GERMAN/FRENCH:
(two languages I can't read, so unless we want to trust Google Translate...):
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/63253
http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2160606
http://linuxfr.org/2005/09/08/19543.html
http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2005/8610.html
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/63689
http:/
Re: GNOME liveCD 2.12 help needed
español: (my translation; it's reliable since i'm a native speaker -from argentina to be precise- but i wouldn't know if this message has already been translated for previous cds -and we'd like to be coherent i suppose-) -8<-- Para iniciar el CD, simplemente presione ENTER. Si el proceso de inicio falla, podrá obtener ayuda presionando [F1] -8<------ -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://santiagoroza.blogspot.com/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD
"P.S.: Speaking of LiveCDs in general: Without a graphical partion tool ..." i've seen this issue (graphical partition tool) in the breezy bounty list (with priority = high), and i wondered why wasn't gparted (gparted.sourceforge.net) being considered as a suitable option... it's gtk-based and equal or probably better (feature and usability-wise) than qtparted, a popular graphical (parted-based) partition tool that's included by default in some kde-based distros (like mepis) http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyBounties -- Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://santiagoroza.blogspot.com/ On 7/25/05, Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:45:37 +0100 > Simos Xenitellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I cannot understand your point. > > > > I'll try to explain. > > If we from the marketing group continue to use expressions as 'geek' or > 'newbie', we'll be stuck in ongoing discussions without any progress. > > What do you mean by 'newbie', for example: A newbie to computers, a > newbie to Linux, or a newbie to GNOME? > > Just because one may a newbie to Linux or GNOME, one may not be a newbie > to computers. There are people with more than 10 years experience in > Windows but never touched a Linux box. These people know how to > handle a graphical user interface with trees, right-click menues, and > the like. > > A computer beginner or infrequent user (less than 2 years Windows > experience) is unlikely to be able to manage a Live CD on his own. > > Advanced computers users (more than 2 years Windows experience but less > than 1 year Linux experience) can manage a LiveCD but they probably > heard of Knoppix before -- at least in Germany. These people are likely > to read PC journals. > > I wasn't speaking about the pros and cons of LiveCD's. I was talking > about the mistakes we make if we don't think of advanced computer users! > We start saying things like > > (1) "No one outside a core group of geeks knows what knoppix is.", > (2) "calling it gnoppix is marketing to the wrong group", and > (3) "calling it gnoppix is confusing to newbies." > > Now, (1) is wrong according to my experience, (2) needs some serious > thinking, and (3) is wrong because a computer newbie hardly knows what > 'Gnoppix', 'GNOME' or a 'LiveCD' is. > > Hopefully, this was a better description. If not, please let me know. > > Cheers, > Claus > > P.S.: Speaking of LiveCDs in general: Without a graphical partion tool, > and without a graphical installation assistent, the utility of LiveCDs > for marketing are overestimated, IMHO. > -- > marketing-list mailing list > marketing-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list > -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
