Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Andy Fitzsimon schrieb: there's no escape from misinterpretation. just ask the gimp guys The escape is thorough evaluation. Ignorance can never be an escape. But I dont see a more thorugh evaluation happening because mostly ignorance is the plan. You can never be sure 100% that nobody is offended - but its the question of numbers. But the foot offends many people and would have stand out if that would have been a consideration. The question also is if GNOME wants to be prominent in internationalization. If it does, it would need to take some extra hurdles. What you can not do is just to claim to care about internationalization and then dont. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan schrieb: Thanks for suggestion. We have got some ideas from the discussion so far. Please see a summary at: http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue You are listing Nepal (as referred by Wikipedia, no confirmation by native people yet) Thi extension is funny, because Wikipedia actually has the reverse logic - it tends to dismiss reports of single people as original research and likes to see references that show the truth of the claim. So any single person claiming something is not really a valid proof. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Murray Cumming schrieb: To make something happen, I guess you need to suggest a particular design. Then the GNOME board could approve it - you need to ask the board for a simple yes/no decision or it won't happen. That would be a very bad idea. Essentially a logo should be selected with care next time. Just something different could easily be approved by the board but then could result in the next issue one day later. A logo can be everything and it does not take much time to think of 'anything'. What would be needed is a well thought through logo idea with also some good people working on it. I think 'marketing by accident' is like one starts programming randomly without any standards or idea what one wants to accomplish. I would wish that some things would change at GNOME. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Murray Cumming schrieb: This assumes that the GNOME artists and the GNOME board are idiots. Note that I won't be discussing whether they are, or whether I am. I never wrote or meant that. I think there are people inside the GNOME community who have marketing experience and who could lead a way to a new logo. I think issues like this is exactly where the GNOME marketing team should take care/responsibility. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi Dave, Dave wrote: Which countries? Besides Thailand and Nepal due to the material online I would add: Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United, Arab Emirates and also Pakistan, Afghanistan and other muslim countries maybe those with +50% muslim population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Muslim_world_map.png When abandoning a logo, you are in essence saying that it has no value to you. In my view its rather the question of why a worldwide project that committed itself to internationalization would want to offend parts of the world. To do this without knowing to do so is acceptable and understandable - but if iobe becomes aware of a problem the question is why one wants to keep offending people. What was formerly unconciously is than conciously. I think my view is very different from yours. You are trying to defend a logo, which has served GNOME for many years. I rather look at what offends people and therefore holds back GNOME in many countries and would suggest to change what offends. Both views are possible, but a compromise is needed. The real question is how much harm the current GNOME logo does in relation to the benefit for keeping it. My view is that if the GNOME logo will keep some countries from even looking at GNOME as a viable desktop alternative than it does great harm to the whole project if the goal is to be acceptable in every country. There are things that GNOME will never fix, such as becoming closed source for people who are offended by open source - but there are things that are not essential to the core GNOME like a logo, documentation,... which can be changed if it seems wise to do so. I would recommend to think over the conception of why should it be a problem if I dont have a problem with it? Thats the wrong approach - the better question is Why should one offend people if this is not what the project is about? If one decides to do it conciously then one has to bear the consequences. A compromise could be that the Foundation does a real evaluation about the extend of the problem. I think by just asking of the list one might not get good answers because those who are offended by GNOME would not subscribe here ;-). Its not always about better software, or better documentation, sometimes its about how to interact and communicate that makes the difference. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Behdad Esfahbod schrieb: Really? Definitely not in Iran. And not in Turkey as far as the GUADEC experience could tell. How did you decide it's offensive in Islamic countries? Maybe its more in arabic countries. I knew that from different sources and its also in the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot#In_culture) . I just today asked a turkish friend and she also said that this can be an issue. My guess is that modern and young developers care less about those issues. As I said I think it is worth evaluating - and what I say was based on what I already knew. I dont actually know how each country is different. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Dave Neary schrieb: Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: I did not propose this just for fun. If it means that GNOME will never be used in maybe 1/4 of the worlds countries it would be stupid not to change. The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. With GNOME the question is how localization and internationalization are related to symbols that offend some people. I do not think it is wise to take this lightly just because oneself does not have that kind of problem. Question is maybe if people in the USA would welcome a new GNOME release to get the name Hussein ;-) -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Petr Kovar schrieb: Otherwise, it seems to be quite controversial and, may I say, disrespectful towards translators, whose work, in my humble translator's opinion, is as good and as bad as any other contributions. Its obvious. Professional translation is a very complex task. You can not expect a high quality from volunteers who often do not have any training and are often developers who also do translations. In relation to code I guess its often the case that programers aho work on GNOME are professional programmers - not all - but many. The argument that I made was made in a specific context - that it would be desirable to have the whole site translated. The question I rose was in fact if it is better to have a good original english page or rather a not so good translation. So I did not start a thread to disrespect translators. In Moin wiki not all help pages are translated because the translations often do not take up the changes fast enough. So generally there is a translation - but the goal is rather to have a good documentation as one that is outdated, wrong and often of lower quality. How can you say the quality is high? I guess you cant prove the opposit either. So better what makes you think the quality can be high? I am sure people who translate are motivated and do their best - and it often helps greatly, especially on user interfaces and documentation. I did this myself for the german epiphany manual. But I know my shortcomings as well as I see those of other german translators. It does not matter if I say it or if I do not. Everybody can see it. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Claus Schwarm schrieb: Here's the rejection of Drupal: Thanks Claus, I had looked at them some days ago as this threads started. Back then, Drupal wasn't ready, it seems. Actually I think that it was rather not evaluated correctly. Anyway. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: www.gnome.org
Behdad Esfahbod schrieb: I probably go dig the requirements discussions from two years ago and start playing with Joomla. That said, no changes in the Plone plan needed. I wouldn't really start with yet another CMS. I think a lot can be done now with patches on SVN - many small fixes. I do not think one should trough away the Plone solution - thats not what I ever wanted to suggest - although I prefered Drupal for many reasons. But now that some work is done it should not be wasted. Unless the people working on it give up. I think what should be needed is: a) A Beta deadline - meaning a date when the site should really running. So a finished status for testing. And what would be especially interesting from my perspective is how much of the www.gnome.org/* that Plone will than be able to deliver. I did a quick count that might be very unaccurate: $ find ./ -name '*wml'|wc -l 167 So this are 167 pages maybe. If this is wrong please correct that count. My guess is that the Plone Beta maybe will have only 40 pages at time of Beta. The rest would need to be hacked in by volunteers. My estimate would be that Beta testing plus hacking would need three months after the Beta release date (about 42 pages/month) . b) A date for the final release. I would say if on March 2009 the site would be 100% complete this would be ok. April maybe also - but everything after that would not be acceptable. If there would be deadline somebody would need to make them happen and also take responsibility if they are missed. Somebody would need to step up and say that this is doable. And if you say this is not doable one needs to find an alternative solution that would give similar results in a shorter time. I think the whole problem started when the CmsRequirements started to grow. Like on localization: What if Plones localization support is really better when we will not get a working installation? Plone is great in many fields - but this does not mean at all that we would ever get to the point to use it to the full extend. The practical approach would be: WGO wasnt build with version control and a build system for many years - every modern CMS will give some practical advance. The option to keep the current build system was always in place if the one alternative would not make it - or as long as it would not make it. So this was an option in play that was never decided but it is what we now (still) have, because we did not count in a failure of the plan. Some say that we now need to go back to the requirements that were agreed. I think that if we do we would need to come to the same result as we have been. Another thing that was missed is that all CMSes develop. So what GNOME needs is a sufficiently working solution at the point of the release - it does not matter much what which CMS can do today or could do yesterday. Also the question is if we have the possibility to fix some stuff that is not working perfectly ourselves. This means that some of the hard requirements will actually be not as important as they looked from a frozen perspective back then. And this also means that some soft requirements like usability would actually become more important. I think the essential point is that a CMS for WGO needs to be workable, manageable and extendable. And that it should be actively developed by a community one can trust. Then security sure is a high priority. Also it should be a system which many of the developers and people who want to help would be comfortable using it. I think we had a large portion of users who knew and liked Drupal - I dont remember much of the same for other CMSes. Also Drupal was already used for GUADEC. From what I have read Joomla seems to be less secure. What I also like about Drupal is that you do not have to update to a new version for every vulnerability but that you get nice patches like this: http://drupal.org/files/sa-2008-067/SA-2008-067-6.5.patch . But again, I think the people who will actually do the most work should have a say here. I think theoretically PHP based systems are always worse when it comes to security. But I dont know any handy Python based solution. And with plone I think you need 5-6 people who know this beast very well and stand besides the users to help them get their work done and/or understand the system. Summary: Decide soon (in the beginning week maybe) where to go next with a rough consensus and then go that way, wherever that path leads. The worst situation is the open decision with no deadline. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
www.gnome.org
Its frustrating that nothing happens on WGO. The problem is not all the bugs or shortcomings of the website. The problem is the organization. I also dont think that a technical new solution like Plone will magically remove all organizational problems. Its easy to see bugs on web pages but if those are not fixed the problem lies deeper. Concrete suggestions: Find somebody who will be the primary webmaster (in a responsible sense, not so much technical) and find somebody who is officially coordinating marketing efforts. There are many cooks but you can never depend on anything that is said right now. Intransparency kills involvement. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
news.gnome.org
Hi, was it intended to title: http://news.gnome.org/ as Planet GNOME? I think that this can confuse people if that was intendended. I also would recommend to: * Link to http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/ or to streamline with that * Link to http://gnomejournal.org/ maybe both on a side bar. I think it would be necessary to distinguish more between official GNOME News and everything else. Another thing is that if every entry is displayed in full length its hard to actually get an overview. Also I think on GNOME News people expect selected news and not a lot of feeds. I would suggest that news.gnome.org could rather import different feeds itself in side bars instead of as in the main area. Like Footnotes , dot.kde.org and many others do it. I think that what would be important for the long run is to distinguish sorts of news and choose where and how we will handle them. I will add a list of possible sorts to the page http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/NewsGateway. BTW: I suggest not only adding content to wiki page but also updating or removing content - especially every wiki user should do this for his own contribution where he might know best if this is still true or important. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: New Website layout
Murray Cumming schrieb: A restart of the www.gnome.org redesign/reimplementation effort might be appropriate soon, but it's premature to start that now. Therefore I'll be reverting or editing Thilo's recent live.gnome.org edits to make that clearer. I think some things need to be done now. The confusion is more in 99% of all the discussions and status messages that are on GnomeWeb. So why should it make sense to remove the only page that reflects soemthing that is going on while keeping things that are all outdated?`I recommend cleaning up all outdated stuff first. Regards, Thilo -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Distro releases, responsibilities and Plone
Dave Neary schrieb: I can imagine that we could have a page split into 3 sections: ACK I have started to collect a list of distro releases here: http://live.gnome.org/UpcomingDistroReleases Some are already in the GNOME calendar of Dave. Would you like to propose appropriate content for gnome.org/start/2.24 which we could use carry forward to future releases? I think its nice to give people what they need and to do this on a special page. I dont quite understand why the release notes are on library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.24/. I'll happily accept patches to the content on the front page or any other page on wgo. Please suggest some. Should I mail those pages to you or rather attach them to bugs? I have created my first page here: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=553529 More than comments on what's wrong, I mailed you some personal thoughts about what I think. And for everyone else - as Murray has pointed out there is still some work being done in the background. Personally I dont think one should force those who do this to make a premature release. I am willing to contribute on many levels but think those who have more access and backing from the community should be responsible and leading. Actually I cant do much more than commenting and providing patches as a result of how GNOME is organized today. I like to help getting some things fixed and also some issues from the list of TODOs. I also think if nobody cares nothing will change. I would encourage rather the approach of just starting fixing things than the lets wait for the thing that does it all. I even do not believe that a deployed Plone will resolve most of the issues. I think a Plone could help fixing: * Creating new content for non techies be more easy * Giving more users the right to add content. * Make it easier to fix minor errors like spelling errors, updating URLs, etc. * Provide a site search * help structure the content But if I should guess I would expect that it would take at least six more months to move most of the content to the Plone site once it is deployed. And then still there will be pages that will have not been moved. So I think its great if Plone will become the great tool ir promises to be but I also think it will be a bug relief for those working on its implementation if things are being fixed now. I do not care if my patches are being replaced by something better in the future, but as long as they are not here, I think its more important to encourage people to sub, it patches and to apply them. I also like to thank everybody who invested their time and effort up till now. Regards, Thilo -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: New Website layout
Murray Cumming schrieb: I just wanted an answer to the question. The new GnomeWeb/www.gnome.org page seemed useless and confused to me and you seem to be the intended target audience/user of it. I have already corrected other changes from Thilo on the GnomeWeb wiki page, while updating it slightly. the whole idea of GnomeWeb/www.gnome.org was to have at least some content on the wiki which reflects the ongoing discussions and efforts. Instead of picking on my changes why havent you update any content regarding Plone before? Right now I feel like to be blamed for what has not been done for two years or like I was interrupting some things that did go well, while in fact they did not. Actually I wonder if we even would have this discussion. On your post on Aug 27th you wrote This week is pretty much its last chance. So I also dont know how you count but I would say this is one month and not one week ago. The thing is that www.gnome.org is the only page available for working on the actual content, while most other pages talk about the Plone site and other websites. So if not creating thsi new page the only other solutions would have been: * have no indication on what is discussed and being worked on * change existing content - so to talk about the actual pages on the Plone wiki pages. That was exactly what I did not want to do. Neither do I think that the wiki should not contain updated work nor do I think we should add the content to pages who talk about future CMSes. I know you dont like me personally and never answer to personal mails I write you - so I cant really talk to you, but I dont find your approach very constructive. The only resolution if I would respect your opinion would be to do nothing - then we wait till Oct 6th - and when we would have we would not have any work being done - and not only this, but we would not even have any discussion here and on the wiki. Delaying can be a nice strategy but for the WGO thing I think it just is not right any more. The problem of WGO is not people wanting to do too much but rather too few people having not enough time doing all. I say the current status is unacceptable, for years. I am not saying we should dump everything that has been done, discussed and worked on - I just think all this stuff has become a burden and the main reason nothing much new has happened. And: Doing something does not mean that what is being done will destroy anything. I believe that moving forward is the right thing to do - and it does not have to be perfect - as it is not perfect for such a long time. Regards, Thilo -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Plans for Ubuntu Release and GNOME download?
I like to know or suggest that GNOME will also announce the availability of GNOME 2.24 in Ubuntu - as this will be AFAIK the first major distro which will give the users the new GNOME. I think at least this should be mentioned somewhere on the homepage. I also like to indicate that there seems to be no obvious link to how to actually get GNOME. As to the mentioning of some work being done on Plone I like to get a specific date - as its being worked on is being said since years and doesnt help at all. I still think some fixes should be done as soon as immediately. We must understand that some users will only come once to www.gnome.org and then never again. if they find a link to download they may use it - if there is none they miht be gone forever. Too many of us think that www.gnome.org is uses like they use it themselves - like checking back regulary. But I would say that this is not really the folks that www.gnome.org really needs to talk to - those of us will find the information anyway - or know it all anyway. Still I have not seen any name of somebody who is (still) responsible primarily for the whole web site stuff. The plone test site is offline since months and what is going on is not reflected on the page in the wiki. And nobody who does work made clear recently what the latest status and timetable is. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Contact and Press on website
Another issue is the Contact page: http://www.gnome.org/contact/ The question is what does contact suggest? I would expect addresses one can get in contact. The information needed is on www.gnome.org/press but not linked anywhere AFAIS I have attached a version of that page that I woud recommend rather. The problem with linking to an IRC channel is that most inquiries to IRC are ignored or you get a random answer from anybody. So if we suggest journalsist should try IRC this means: * Either they will not get any answer at all, or * Some idiot will give an answer before anybody else with some plan does. I would also recommend having a HTML form which helps the guest getting the right contact - like he can select what kind of request he has and then either gets to press contact, forum or linked to a mailing list or a FAQ. I know traditionally IRC was the way to contact people - but that was the time where either other hackers or users used the internet. IRC forces people to install a IRC software and to connect to an IRC server. Some may expect journalists to just do that - but I would say that those who can do it are the very rare exceptions and still as I layed out above there is a high risk that they wont get any official answers. Regards, Thilo PS: There seem to be a lot of hidden or forgotten web pages on www.gnome.org. Did Anybody make a list/sitemap already? -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig Title: Contact GNOME Home News Projects Art Support Development Community Contact GNOME About Latest Release Support Contribute Contact The GNOME project is a community effort lead by the GNOME Foundation and countless numbers of developers and volunteers. Press Contact To get directly in touch with the GNOME press contact group, write to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you need a contact for a specific country or language got to our press page. GNOME Foundation The GNOME Foundation is comprised of a number of bodies - the Board of Directors, the Executive Director, the Advisory Board and the GNOME Membership. To learn more about the GNOME foundation go to foundation.gnome.org Address GNOME Foundation PO Box 101 Groton, MA 01450 USA Fax: ?? Phone: +1-617-206-3947 (Voice Box) More Information and Help Please try to follow GNOME's Code Of Conduct when communicating in the community. More information and ongoing discussion are available on the GNOME wiki. Most topics are discussed on the GNOME mailing lists. ...or on GNOME IRC channels GNOME Support Forums Copyright © 2005-2008 The GNOME Project. Optimised for standards. Hosted by Red Hat. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME mobile on website
Dave Neary schrieb: Hi Thilo, Hi Dave, thats hard for me, because I did not support this inititative initially and also it is still not clear for me where it should go. But I can ask questions here to make it more clear for me. I add your points here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/www.gnome.org Here are my questions: * the projects name is GNOME Mobile Embedded Initiative (GMAE) and it should keep this name? As far as I understood the core idea is to summarize some different platforms that all build on GNOME and make it more visible? * Also GMAE is essentially a stripped down GNOME which is especially made for mobile and embedded device? * Who is the intended primary audience? My reception is that this is more developer related and companies. * For www.gnome.org/index.html I would say its more of a Get GNOME or to show what GNOME is, also. What I would suggest for now is to rather shorten the text and make sub pages for: * A list of active participants (I can send this to people) /mobile/participants (TODO) Which would be those listed in the press release? * Some stories of devices based on GNOME Mobile (human interest type stuff) - I thought Vernier, Nokia, maybe Ubuntu Mobile might be good choices - perhaps also the iRex eReader. /mobile/devices (TODO, take the stuff from /mobile and elaborate) * Short descriptions of the libraries included in GNOME Mobile (a two or three line summary of services provided raison d'être) I would suggest link to http://live.gnome.org/mobile and adding stuff there. Here also new stuff can be added without SVN access. * Links to some SDKs and downloadable VMs that people can play with (Poky, Ubuntu Mobile, the Maemo SDK, ...) * Ideally, links to some applications which target only GNOME Mobile APIs would be nice. dito * Project roadmap achievements dito. Maybe tell some core things on mobile, too - but the stuff could be added to the wiki and then reedited and put on /mobile That's about what I would suggest doing. I think splitting some things to wiki would make the page shorter and more readable. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: gnome.org
Diego Escalante Urrelo schrieb: Is Quim still the contact person for this? I lost track of it long time ago... I suggest one should say who is now the ultimate contact person for web issues on this wiki page: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/Team If there is anybody. And if there isn't there should be one. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Software Freedom Day
Brian Cameron schrieb: Couldn't we just set up the website so that on particular calendar days, it automatically has some nice default information to display? I guess we could. Just want to add that displaying a date is one thing and promoting an event or doing something is another thing. What can GNOME do? I would recommend issuing a news item talking about the software freedom day and maybe also collecting what will be going on. If GNOME related stuff goes on there could also be the chance to add some photos and links. Also GNOME could do something on this day, too like addressing the GNOME users and the people organizing those SFD events or doing an event of its own. I think if one follows the spirit of the SFD many things could be done. Also GNOMES regional groups could become active - I am sure there were already many GNOMErs involved - just that it was not mentioned. The SFD is not a centralised event but a distributed - so part of the idea to let people get creative and for GNOME itself helping them to do so. GNOME could also organize a bug squashing day or something like that. Or a rally for donations for the project, etc etc. Most hackers love technical solutions. Those can be helpful - but too often hackers also think that those solution will solve non-technical problems. So the calendar will be an improvement for sure. But I would hope that this wont be the end of the road. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Software Freedom Day
Dave Neary schrieb: 1. A set of ideas on low-pmaintenance stuff we can do for this type of thing 2. A list of people with the skills to do these things 3. someone/a small group to be aware of upcoming things, and co-ordinate volunteers This sounds like a good task for marketing crew. We could make a list on a wiki page where people can add events, too. The somebody could send a list of upcoming events to some lists like marketing and the foundation board some weeks before an event so there would be enough time to veto and/or prepair things. As I am writing this, I read the renewed http://live.gnome.org/UserGroups page. So you already have a calendar. Do you think adding more general events would be finde. As I think GNOME user groups is maybe the right slot for those events - then spreading to the general GNOME page. This list should contain worldwide events that GNOME supports wholeheartedly and likes its users to know about or maybe use as a local action. This would/could be: * Software Freedom Day * Stop Software Patents world Day (which is today) * Document Freedom Day (promotes open document standards, which is what GNOME also supports I guess) * Anniversaries of GNOME, GNU, Linux kernel, X11, ... * New GNOME releases, thats already happening. Maybe we could add a countdown like Only XX days till the release of GNOME 2.24 ? * I would also consider releases of distros to be mentioned as this means that GNOME users get a new GNOME (much more than the release of a new GNOME does). So one could announce like: A new Ubuntu is out. With that Ubuntu users get the new GNOME 2.24, same for Fedora and others. BTW - maybe we could have a simple solution for www.gnome.org also that includes a kind calendar . If wgo would have a space for something like announcement banners and one could plan what is in that banner - one could work very early on what will appear. Those banners could also like to live.gnome.org/DocumentFreedomDay which again could explain what that is and how GNOME users can get involved. Another thing that strikes me on WGO: I do not see any link to an Events page. But there are still two links to Support page. I could create this page - everybody could review - and I also could send a list of events to this list. Those could be discussed here also and maybe adding those to the calendar would also be a nice idea. For local events I would suggest that the national GNOME organizations do such stuff - so like Linuxtag in Germany is something the german team should work on. regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Software Freedom Day
Andreas Nilsson schrieb: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2008-August/msg00025.html Crap, I totally missed that. I'm terribly, terribly sorry. I guess it's a bit late to put something up now. Should we try again next year? (and be better prepared hopefully.) Again, sorry that I missed this. No problem. I see it this way: public has a small attention span when it comes - and so its important to pull on the same rope sometimes. The 25 years of GNU is not really too late: http://www.gnu.org/ Maybe you can put something up there like for http://www.gnu.org/fry/ ? 25 years of GNU deserve a word ;) I would even say somebody from GNOME foundation could say something that makes this clear Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Software Freedom Day
Andreas Nilsson schrieb: I can put a banner or something up on the website pretty much right away if you want to. I dont have a say. Too bad you didn't mention it on the mailing list a bit earlier though. I actually did: Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/29/98 Regards, Thilo -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME files disabled
Simos Xenitellis schrieb: On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 6:34 AM, Thilo Pfennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Claus Schwarm schrieb: It's just not as efficient as for other platforms because releases are rather boring if they cannot be installed easily and immediately. That was the central problem of gnomefiles. Not specific to gnomefiles.org. Thats the same problem gnome.org has. Like new GNOME but you have to compile yourself. Also same problem most linuxbased FLOSS has. The importance I can see with gnomefiles.org is that it focuses on intermediate users, those that can afford to install some development packages, then run ./configure, make, sudo make install. These users have a higher chance to pick up a project of their own, and convert to GNOME developers later on. Simos Maybe a revision based directory would be cool. Like every distro has another version of an application. They then could link to one directory with version=2.22rev=0 or so - this would enable the view of one application to be exact that of the linked version. So actually very wiki-like, except that the revisions would be hardcoded. So this descriptions could be used by every package manager and distribution. Distributions may want to add some bits if they patch a version. But that would be much nicer than of every distro needs to essentially copy and paste the same bits. This could also be matched to a RSS feed, so that people see when which version or description was updated. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME files disabled
Claus Schwarm schrieb: It's just not as efficient as for other platforms because releases are rather boring if they cannot be installed easily and immediately. That was the central problem of gnomefiles. Not specific to gnomefiles.org. Thats the same problem gnome.org has. Like new GNOME but you have to compile yourself. Also same problem most linuxbased FLOSS has. ciao, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Software Freedom Day is Sept. 20th 2008
Hi, just want to mention this and also suggest that GNOME will support this in some way. Maybe just a news posting and a link to http://www.softwarefreedomday.org/ - or maybe more. This is a bit late for larger planning but this is a yearly opportunity. And if not GNOME think about doing something in your home town. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Issuing a press release about GNOME 3
Peteris Krisjanis schrieb: It is needed, no matter how hard it is. Because it is next level - when we actually start to care what happens after code. Being proactive about features and problems about them is way forward. That should be written in stone ;-) One could try to select a good mix of volunteers from different backrounds who are willing to test new features and give feedback Testing should be done, yes, but again, nor GNOME nor distributions don't have such manpower. I wrote volunteers. I think we should be able to find a handful of people willing to test. Maybe also we can give them something in return - and if its only public attention - maybe let them write blogs - so have some kind of userplanet.gnome.org and encourage them to write about what they experience. I know this is happening in the blog world already - but most GNOME users that write blog entries nobody really knows and nobody cares. And also nobody really knows what they are using. I think this even does need to meet high standards technically or scientifically - I just say give the users a seat in the front row and listen to them. You cant listen to all of them - its true that there are a lot of Bugzillas out there but that is not the same. For example I know a telephone company that works with Ubuntu/GNOME only for some years now - somebody there could report about their experience which could really be valuable for the business view. Of course, mainstream oriented distros should look for more casual testing (user groups and stuff), but it is up to them. That is part of our problem and as far as i have understood other people also thought about how one could better link bug reports betwen distribution-gnome bugzilla. But I also think that GNOME does not get enough direct information from users. I think that let the distribution handle the user side does not really work out - this at least what I see today - if you look at GNOME you can see how some things got wrong because the GNOME developers and the users seemed to have gotten out of contact. regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Issuing a press release about GNOME 3
Luis Villa wrote: In short, I think you're letting minor technical considerations (and perhaps perceived pressure from KDE?) set out an agenda, rather than making the user and improvements for the user set the agenda, and I think that is exactly backwards, screwing us up with users, I was thinking about the same but hesitated to write that as I am used to having a non-majority view. I think one could also think about the KDE disaster as that they did a simlar thing: 4.0 was not really the new big thing for the users - but rather a quite stable new API. The difference in GNOME 3.0 would be that although the motivation to do a higher number comes from the ABI/API changes but it is expected to be MUCH more stable than KDE 4.0. But still thats one of the core problems that marketing follows function and not the other way around or at least on the same level. So marketing still is seen as a bunch of people who spread rhe word of new functionalities and versions. What GNOME should have is a good general strategy where it is heading. Right now there are only some random feature clusters like the Online Desktop or the mobility stuff. But thats not really an outlined idea or vision. Dact is that GNOME was never build from a users perspective but from a developers perspective and also from the perspective of distributions. If it should take the users into account the users have to have a role in the development process - like having a users council which is involved when new releases are planned. I think to expect developers and distribution to takes the view of the user is maybe futile, because they will have their own view and interests. One could try to select a good mix of volunteers from different backrounds who are willing to test new features and give feedback - or who say a word about ideas that are floating around. and they could be heard by the Foundation board and maybe have one representative in that board. It would then be good if they have a setup which allows them to test new stuff without being technical experts. I have followed the plans, discussions and actions in GNOME for years and I think taht GNOME will never be for users as long as they are outside of the process. I think such a small group of users could give very valuable feedback, especially because it allows the developers to specifically communicate with these individualy in ordet to solve common problems. One thing that I think will be clear is that this would introduce a broader view of GNOME. So what does GNOME do with users who use software inside of GNOME and cant complete a task - but this task is not part of core GNOME but of Abiword or GIMP? Well that would mean that one has to take those applications into account also and help outside projects to get connected as well. So this would not mean that users decide anything - maybe it just helps developers ot the developer community to get better results as that is what they want. Or maybe not better but faster. Because the feedback they get then they only would get one year later, when the stuff is has arrived all distributions. But one year later means that the development also is laggung one year behind, which again costs one year, so the feedback for features that were written is getting to the developers two years late, sometimes. Only users who update often give feedback more often. Not sure how this could be implemented but I think is doable. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Issuing a press release about GNOME 3
Alex Hudson schrieb: But, here's the thing. I'm not sure 3.0 will come about if people just wait around for the 'big idea' to kick it off. Stuff like RedHat's online desktop and things are great, but I would compare that to the idea of time-based releases. Previously, people would release software when it was ready, and the problem ended up being that ready never came (or, indeed, it came and went without people realising). The problem is that GNOME seems to jump back and forth on GNOME 3.0 - first its introduced as Project Topaz - as the next big think (2005) and many ideas came floating in. Then at some point communication was: 3.0 is not going to happen - at least not for a long time - at all. Now it is back there with rather minor changes. So these are 3 different stories - there is not really a development of the Topaz story/idea from the first mention to now - they are not related to each other besides talking abut the same version number. So if today there is no big ideas of 3.0 thats only because discussion was stopped by purpose. Those years could have been used to organize discussions. Or to work on the page. The start was to have all kind of brainstorming ideas - they are still there on the scratchpad page - but are not linked to 3.0 any more - so the context is lost. And from working aith a wiki I would suggest that a 3.0 pages is not created and then moved around, stripped by all its content but continuously refactored so it always contains the status of 3.0. Wiki pages that say: Wait and do not edit dont make much sense. Only if you regard a wiki as a CMS where users mostly just stand in the way - and not as a tool to develop ideas (and where you can look in the history who added which ideas or who changed what to what). Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Finding case studies in the wiki
Am Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:51:28 +0100 schrieb Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can anyone tell me the shortest navigation path to get to the GNOME case studies, please? I did find a link to http://live.gnome.org/MarketingTeam/ExistingGnomeDeployments which doesn't exist, but proposed Well that page was redirected 2006 - I suggest to follow development more closely. If you find a page that still linke to it please rather change the linking page. I dont think thats a good idea. Because every redirect is resulting in title search results, with the same content. Which makes finding pages a mess. Otherwise we will end up having thousands or more redirects. This movement of pages happened 2006, not 2008. I have tried to change all links I found, but as the theme doesnt support listing all links any more that was a bit uncomfortable (showing this requires a clickable title which can be seen on modern theme). I did the redirects just now, so that should be shortened to 5 clicks from 7 now. No you increase the clicks. Because people who search for a title find now a lot more pages with the same content - so like you have 4 REAL pages you now get 8 pages - but people need to click and read all 8 which increases time a lot. Also please note that when you click Info http://live.gnome.org/action/info/MarketingTeam/ExistingGnomeDeployments?action=info you can list when changes were made and there you can see like in this Diff: http://live.gnome.org/action/info/MarketingTeam/ExistingGnomeDeployments?action=diffrev2=40rev1=39 that I added the redirect 2006 I would appreciate in general if the reorganisation of information in the wiki was done with some kind of method, The problem I see is that many people added a lot of pages without making the content and structure transparent. I think different priorities can be set very easy like by changing the header http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/MarketingHeader or the contents http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing I would prefer, for example, the Market research link, which features prominently on the team page, to point to the bit of research which we have already done Question is to who you want to talk to on these pages. I would recommend that the entry page gives primary information for starters and not insiders that know most content anyway. Instead link to other pages that might work better for specific content like research. So a user who wants to start with marketing might not start or work on the research - but the researches need to have some pages where they can collaborate best. But if they would design the marketing entry page would mean that no new user would be able to get a start. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
GNOME 2.22 and beyond
Hi, I take the opportunity of a new GNOME release to discuss some issues with marketing which are still present. Unfortunately the wiki content about marketing wasnt really updated since 2006, really. I have cleaned up some stuff on http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing and below. I like to indicate that the pages about Market Segmentation and Target Markets are very much similarm but were also not developed much further besides some minor clean up. So I like to suggest to merge these two pages: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/TargetMarkets and -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME 2.22 and beyond
Am Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:12:10 +0100 schrieb Thilo Pfennig [EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/TargetMarkets and http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/MarketSegmentation (sorry my mailer decided to send this too early) And also to think about what this means... I suggest not to add just more random content or new pages. At least when it comes to marketing content the problem is rather that there is too much dead pages and content. So mostly some stuff that was said once is documented but not elaborated and its unclear what is written really means for GNOME. Thilo -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: About The GNOME Mobile Embedded Initative
On 4/21/07, Sriram Ramkrishna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 21, 2007 at 03:19:48PM +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote: c) In relation to that i fear that this binds ressources that otherwise would have been there for the core desktop. The people doing embedded GUI are already captured resources and are now being paid to work on GNOME whether embedded or otherwise. Ok, thats a ood point. But still it is a switch in focus, isn't it? I understand that no every project can be talked about publically but the question is if such a major step should not be discussed inside a broader part of the public. I do not mean the details of the deal but about the changes that are implied. Ok, if all will follow (developers and users) this will work. But if not we would have a deal that does not work. Ok maybe I am being too sceptical. The thing about focus is difficult. Web applications are also part of the desktop - but is currently not really on our focus. So question is: Does GNOME just go where the money is or does GNOME have a vision? These are point that should not be excluding each other, but I think its important to know how things are moving or are decided. I think we had lengthy discussions in the past how GNOME marketing should be and also we talked about who we should talk to. As it comes out it looks like the REAL marketing has not much todo with what we discussed. That said I dont think that this is generally bad. But I think our discussions and what we do should reflect each other. If I look at GnomeMarketing page this does not reflect our new focus. I do not see embedded hardware vendors as a primary target group. This means that we did not see this coming? Or maybe it just means that those who saw it never entered any informations about it. This makes any marketing discussion based on old goals and assumptions senseless and shallow. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://issues.foresightlinux.org/confluence/x/R -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: About The GNOME Mobile Embedded Initative
On 4/22/07, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GNOME is not a desktop project, it's a user experience project. Well then we should start telling the truth. From our front page: GNOME offers an easy to understand desktop for your Linux or UNIX computer. I think this really means that from the content level everything should be reconsidered (focus of the web pages, content, projects,...) ? yet we are going into new directions without further consultation of the marketing team. Sorry, but that is an unrealistic expectation. The community will march on doing what it does, doing new things, and leaving things behind, without consulting the marketing team first. That is one of the unique parameters that we must operate under. Question is what the task of the marketing team should be? If the REAL marketing is neither discussed nor decided on the marketing team I rather suggest to dissolve it and officially give the foundation board the task to do the marketing and then just have action groups for doing specific tasks. As its clear that marketing is not just action or advertising but rather the big picture I think a marketing team that just can discuss only parts of a picture makes no sense just because everything they discuss will just be shallow and unrealisitic. And so its just a fake marketing team and just leds people to the false assumtion that anything on this list or on the wiki gives you a picture where GNOME is heading. So better remove or hide the marketing content from the wiki and maybe also kill this list because it just fetches unnecessary attention. After what I have read from the replies to my questions I do not believe that the GNOME marketing team would ever be able to discuss what actually is the real direction. But the real task of a marketing team would be to be ahead and not behind the discussions. It strengthens our core message about GNOME as a user experience platform and development community, and co-ordinates resources around a fundamentally important and growing market opportunity. Well I see a relation. And I also have understood that things have changed just by the money that came in. But nonetheless I believe that GNOME should live by a vision and I see this move in addition to the GNOME Office is dead as a major change of focus which indeed means that some weaknesses where I was waiting for a rather immediate solution will unlikely to be getting a focus and so I am starting to worry if GNOME can still become the platform of choice for an office enviroment. I do not see this coming but it seems that I am not getting the insight that I would need to make any predictions about GNOMEs future - but this means I can not depend on GNOME. And this means that I am thinking about a switch. How should one depend on GNOME in the future? How is GNOME planning to answer the demands of an office enviroment? I have my doubts now. -- Thilo Pfennig http://issues.foresightlinux.org/confluence/x/R -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: About The GNOME Mobile Embedded Initative
Just want to ilet you know that I am leaving GNOME Marketing team now because I don't really think I fit into all this. This all just makes no sense to me any more. ciao, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://issues.foresightlinux.org/confluence/x/R -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
About The GNOME Mobile Embedded Initative
I have thought long about this initiative. I would not generally consider this a bad thing, but: a) I do not like that this was not discussed at all in the marketing list. Such major things and announcement have to be discussed with at least the marketing team b) I fear that this is in fact a movement away from the desktop platform. I would rahther have suggested to found a new organisation to do this because mobile devices are not really desktops. c) In relation to that i fear that this binds ressources that otherwise would have been there for the core desktop. I know - many things are now developed for embedded devices already and I also think that his is nice and cool but this truely is a whole different issue. We even did not manage to get our web site updated in time, wether for GNOME 2.18 nor 2.18.1 - so still many core tasks are not solved and yet we are going into new directions without further consultation of the marketing team. I would like to know how this decision was made and why. And if you really think that GNOME can really develop two platforms (mostly standard desktop and embedded). I dont think so. And to me it looks like GNOME changes direction. Thilo PS: At least we should discuss now what this really means for us now. And what it means for marketing GNOME. -- Thilo Pfennig http://issues.foresightlinux.org/confluence/x/R -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: redifining GNOME office.
On 4/4/07, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMveryHO trying to marketing-wise (re)build a concept of GNOME Office to compete against OOo is even more futile than putting energies into beating Firefox's success with Epiphany. We have very limited energies, we better concentrate them in the critical areas where the free software offer needs us most. If we are not convinced about GNOME who else should we convince. Why are we doing this? This sounds like we are not really trying to convince anybody that GNOME should be their desktop. We neither want to cooperate too much nor do we want to provide a full desktop solution (this would include a usable desktop). So we are going nowhere. I can't tell anybody to use Abiword and Gnumeric iof there is not really a strong support for these applications and the general idea of a GNOME based Office. I then MUST tell my customers to use KDE or OpenOffice.org instead because I don't want to see my customers having to do costly switches of platforms just because GNOME takes on a hobbyist approach without a professional ambition? I have not recommended Abiword so far to my customers because OO.org is just providing much more NOW. If we only see GNOME as a desktop für interaction with hardware etc. I think this really does not help users very much because they then have to use non-GNOMish applications who follow other philosophies to do their tasks. And also GNOME is not THAT different. Sending attachments via Nautilus to Thunderbird does not work. We CAN indeed work on those bugs. But neither Mozilla.org nor OpenOffice.org are or will be GNOME - so we will se a lot of costly integration issues. I really think that KDEs approach to work on KDE Office makes much more sense - and if asked what viable alternative to huge OpenOffice.org they should use I should not recommend Abiword or Gnumeric if these do not get the support of the GNOME community. I really think that Office application and integration is THE core point of desktop development. We win or loose on this point. So giving up the GNOME Office idea altogether for me sounds like: forget about GNOME. To say it positive what GNOME is or should be from my view: I would expect GNOME to be my desktop - there should be concepts to help me as a user to fulfill my tasks which are things like: working with files, photos, sound, financial data, letters, graphics. This all should go smoothly and there should not be any issues with the interaction. Neither OO nor FF will focus on integrating with either of GNOME or KDE. These are cross-platform applications that Maybe it would even make much more sense for OO to write a desktop of its own to be integrated better. Same is true for Mozilla. I suppose you think that your proposition would mean more effectiveness of the GNOME organisation. But I think that giving up the idea of a GNOME Office makes GNOME less attractive to users and is indeed counterproductive. Sorry for being so blunt, but I think its better to do it this way as to think one way and talk another. I also see that with the diminishing power of GNOME we see distributions making their own steps. We even see bugs of Distribution X beeing issued into Bugzilla, reducing GNOME more and more to just some kind of common subversion base of different distributions. Also funny to see some disttributions in fact offering additional commercial applications as a bugfix inside Bugzilla :-( . I think GNOME could and should be more than the sum of its individual parts. I did not follow GNOME culture from its beginning. For me it looks like culture is decreasing and more tasks that GNOME should do are done my distributions where in fact I think really distributions should not be that important. You COULD switch distributions while keeping a GNOME desktop. But switching a desktop is nothing one really should want to do. I don't see why we should do GNOME marketing at all if what you say is the rough consensus. If GNOME really is just some SVN repository and some geeky events and projects I don't see any need to coordinate or market. Then it does not matter anyway if things really work because no one really will stick to or depend on GNOME. If I expect nothing from an application I don't use it. I have switched to FLOSS in 1998 because I was willing to accept substandard software because its free and because of its potential. The projects I most likely will not be able to use in the future because they can not take up with the development are not really what a user should choose. If we at Foresight would have thought like that we would not have chosen Epiphany as its default application. We should tell people why they should want to use GNOME or gnomish applications instead of other options. I hope we are getting more ambitious. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://issues.foresightlinux.org/confluence/x/R -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
redifining GNOME office.
Hi, I suggest we redefine GNOME Office. See als this bug: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422337. The Wikipedia website says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME_Office The Ubuntu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28Linux%29 6.10documentation also includes the following as part of the GNOME Office product suite: - Dia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dia, a diagram editor - Inkscape http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkscape, a vector graphics editor - The GIMP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_GIMP, the classic image editor - Plannerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Planner_%28project_management%29action=edit, a project management solution I suggest that rather than every distribution does its own definition we agree to extend the concept and also to work again on this field. This also means that we should encourage to work on the weakness. Like that we still miss a presentation program. Would like to see some other opinions on this topic. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://issues.foresightlinux.org/confluence/x/R -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Signing off our target audience (was Re: Example of targetted release notes)
have any idea how press requests are answered (but I should know as part of a marketing team). I think many teams could use the LGO wiki as an issue tracker like its done in MoinMoin: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests. I had also done some example pages in Moin with the template mechanism. I think without some kind of issue tracking we will not be able to work on some subjects. Sorry if this is all too random? Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Request for a GNOME Live demo graphic
On 3/18/07, Ken VanDine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Currently we have a graphic on http://torrent.gnome.org which is livecd specific. It would be nice to have something more generic for the demos since we have other image types. Any up for create a GNOME Live or GNOME Live Demo image? Yeah. Does Tango project maybe have a good icon to start with? I try to check on IRC. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Maybe help ease the pain of 2.20 release notes?
On 3/17/07, Joachim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To talk straight about GNOMEs weaknesses I just say what I think that is NOW: How should we best discuss these? One new thread to discuss forward focus in general? One thread for each topic? Or on the wiki (which would be my preferred method)? I'm aware that we already have lists on the wiki of what needs improving in gnome -- they sprout up everywhere. Starting a new one without enough people behind it won't help. I am know to favour the wiki. I think one problem with all the splits is that many discussion are not summarized or the results are not added to the pages. The wiki itself is the wild west ;-) - I think generally we should try to have less pages and not one new page for every new idea. But thats what people often do: the honor existing content and add a new page rather then refactoring the old pages. Also some things seemed to be discussed on some lists and decisions are not always added to the wiki page where they would make sense. The problem is: * Each new wiki page must be read and understand by people * We have about 2700 pages now * Nobody can or ever will read all. I Think I would like to make an online IRC/wiki session which can be very powerful A wiki is asynchronous and thats cool but combined with IRC and with realtime work you can quickly agree on new page structures. I even think we may create a channel for the wiki(s), so that everybody who works in the wiki can log in and ask and suggest and help each other. The thing is that from one perspective EVERY page on the wiki is about marketing - if you see it as ressources that lead to new releases of software. Also I think cleanups make the most sense - much more than adding new content. I also would like to suggest that we make some content only writeable to some groups which is absolutely possible in a wiki. Why that? Because then they can make sure that the page only contains content of their group - and everybody who visits knows he can depend on it. I would always add pages to a groups space that are writeable to all or even anonymous. We could start making some pages on http://live.gnome.org/TeamWorkspacesofficial workspaces. On Moin Wiki this is done ny adding a page like AccountsTeam/AdminGroup to the AutoAdminGroup. This allows the accounts team to add some people to a team AdminGroup. This group than could set ACLs for AccountsTeam/* .If you add AccountsTeam/ReadGroup and AccountsTeam/ReadWriteGroup you also can set who may read or write all pages. This would be much more intelligent as the current status where there are only some people in the AdminGroup who may do all. This would also allow us to hide some pages in GnomeMarketing/* which should only be visible to some people which are core to the marketing team - or just make some pages writeable. Or even make one page writeabel to anonymous contributions. But this are all just ideas where we would highly depend on admins. And as we do not know when and how this might change we cant take that route now. So back to reality I would say we should do refactor the GnomeMarketing pages to reflect the current status and also move some content to archive pages. -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Signing off our target audience (was Re: Example of targetted release notes)
On 3/16/07, Claus Schwarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, your suggestion needs improvement: What should the Marketing Team do, even it would agree on your proposal? I like to add my view to this discussion: I think that we cant discuss this whole thing as abstract as we so often. In the end you need the people to do what you think is right. And its also true that most of us are active in other relations - not only GNOME - but also in distributions, companies or self-employed. The last release of Foresight gave me some new experiences. I think what we have done and will do is take GNOME and construe it for our users. So what is really needed is an active communication. I think it is hard to focus on one group or the other because I think things are changing very quickly. Instead of one central view and marketing I would vote for a collaborative, decentralized approach. A marketing of the small steps. A marketing of those who know what fits best. GNOME needs to get better, GNOME needs to fulfill users needs better. Foresight is interested in better GNOME as well as GNOME is interested in more and better GNOME in distributions - and as users like to have a better desktop. When the circle is working we are doing the right things. I don't really care about what we should do - I am only interested what people really do. I also like to look where GNOME is weak and encourage to get better - or encourage developers to fix the weaknesses. The user is often right, but not always - but still I think i the past GNOME too often thought it would know better than the users - and also did not meet their daily needs because the developers did not have the same needs - and instead focused on theoretically better usability - which is nice if it really works - but still users need to get things done. So everything that makes a better desktop experience is GOOD or BETTER. That's my understanding of marketing, also: We talk to the developers - we make some experiences that the developers may not make because they focus on other stuff. And also we each have and make different experiences which we can exchange. Its nice if we agree on a consensus - but if we do not still each of us will continue his/her work. So no matter what the marketing team will decide or do I think I will continue to work inside Foresight and above that for the vision of a desktop or GNOME. I dont see much sense in starting the marketing from a central viewpoint. I rather like to see our marketing as a compromise. So rather start different projects. We dont have the ressources to do a big marketing. if we had or web launch would have worked in time. Lets not pretend that we have the ressources as long as we dont have them - as long as GNOME.org does not have the ressources to pay full time workers to do a good job. So lets be realistic and do what we can and make some cool projects and help to make GNOME better. I think this is what we can do and it would still be a lot. The 'centralistic' way has the effect that some things wont get done - or that some goals are set and will not be accomplished if nobody works on them. I rather like projects with a limited timeframe and clear goals. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Maybe help ease the pain of 2.20 release notes?
On 3/15/07, Joachim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The other problem with the release notes is that we do them backwards. We should be thinking about the 2.20 release notes NOW, not in 6 months. We should be planning what the focus of the next release is, instead of just listing what's come over the wall at the end of the cycle. Well I think that this is absolutely impossible. For instance I had added Jokosher 0.9 to Foresights release notes and just heard on the release day that this will not be released. I think you can try this in a company like Apple or Microsoft - but even there thery must accept that they do not meet the goals. I think what we CAN do is to have some people that try to be uptodate of some project statuses. I had tried this on this page: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/GnomeProjectStatuses The thing is that this need more intense communication. I also must thing of this talk http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=6765603919277760697 I just watched today where Mike Pinkerton explained that one of the things they had to learn was that if people own a task/project that is a way that no one will contribute because OSS people respect ownership. I also do not think that Fedoras release notes are really THAT good. I think they are very elaborated but technical. I think they are a good base for journalists, but not for end users. I would agree on some points: I think each release should have a message and some highlights and UI think we should start to plan that. i think we need to encourage developers to work on some weaknesses and try to be good on some things. This can mean that many applications do not have any news. To talk straight about GNOMEs weaknesses I just say what I think that is NOW: 1) Evolution - From my view you just cant use it. i hav read that some where able to activate spam protection but I was not. Also I have not heard any exiting news from it for a long time. This is one of our core applications! Here we loose users to Thunderbird, which is much less integrated. If there was any excitement the problem is that it just did not get through to the users (like me) 2) Epiphany - Here the problem is not so much the application but the GNOME support. This is core application number 2 and it really is great - we just dont communicate it enough. Here we loose against Forefox and Konqueror. 3) Printing - Here we get better. Good! Continue the great work but invest more time 4) Handling of scanners in digital cameras. This still sucks. We now have gnome-scan, which is very important from my view - we just had no interface for scanning. 5) Instant Messaging. We still have no good standard IM application as part of core. But instant messaging becomes more and more important like browsing and mailing. We also suck on IRC interface. 6) Image handling - GIMP is ok, but simple image manipulation is still a hard task - like red eye removing. Some applications like f-spot take upt the task, but are not part of core and actually are not very gnomeish from my point of view (not intuitive) 7) Playing sounds and videos - this is still not easy enough. Also the default music player totem is called Video player which is very confusing. This whole field needs to be rethought - do we want itunes style music players or where do we ant to go - what interfaces are must usable? Also audio and video need to be managed. This is what i see as our main weaknesses - I am sure many have a very different view. But I think its important to communicate also about subjective views. I would love to see other lists of what you think should become better. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: 2.18 slogan (was Re: request for a gnome bugday banner.)
I am against a new slogan for every new release. I think we should have one stable slogan that identifies GNOME. We can change that if our focus changes but this is not what we really do on every release. What we are working on is to make GNOME better each release. If we are just talking about a tagline for the release - thats Ok for me - but this should not be considered THE GNOME slogan. For a good slogan we should not collect random slogans but find a way how we get a good slogan. regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Urgent: GNOME Marketing PDFs Call for 2.18
Hi, the live cd is in desperate need of some material. We have thought of some really nice PDFs. I think to target the users we should keep in mind: * Those who downloaded GNOME live cd already have it. (ok thats silly) * The PDFs should talk to the user and make him wanting to use GNOME / give his/her desktop a hug ;-) * Maybe give something to start with. I suggest that those of you who are good in graphics and texts just do what they can if you have some time and attach your work with the license to edit and user your work to this page: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/MarketingMaterial Attached files: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/MarketingMaterial?action=AttachFile Possible formats would be ODT or SVG? Or whatever you think is ok and usable. Maybe also attach some unfinished work. And everybody should be able to look at these files and download all kinds of data there. Ideally this would enable us to remix new nice PDFs. Your time would be greatly appreciated. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Working Draft
On 3/5/07, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't get excited by the prospect of being able to see my disk usage as a ring chart? Well actually I only use such an application when my hard disk is full, which now only happens rarely (when Beagle gets wild on my old laptop). And I think this is something less and less users will see. So I really don't think this is an exciting application at all. Its a geeky tool. I think that a lot of the stuff we've got in there at the moment is interesting to a very small portion of our constituency - Baobab, Bug buddy, ... Bug-Buddy also is a tool you should only see when your application has crashed. Nothing one should be happy abput. Making it better shure is a good thing but I prefer it when my apps are running and I do not think wow, nice, my app crashed nice to see bug-buddy again. ;-) Epiphany uses more Tangoified icons - the GNOME web browser looks better than ever Cutting out the referenceTango is not that nice. And I also think that the Tango icons primarily are not ment to be prettier but more standardized. Evince has a history feature - Track changes in your documents with the GNOME document viewer Ah and I thought that was a history function, So it really is a revision function? History for me is what you find in a browsers history menu (open recent documents). On the rest I do agree. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: wgo/get_involved/spread_gnome
On 2/25/07, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Cutler is a writer volunteering at drafting http://gnome.jardigrec.eu/en/get-involved/spread-gnome Please suggest improvements to this page and keep him CCed. As you see he has some questions at the end of the page. I would think that the wiki and the entry page http://live.gnome.org/JoinGnome should also be linked as a ressource. -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Suggestion. GNOME Feedback Form
I suggest that we put a feedback from on the homepage www.gnome.org. The feedbacks should be analyzed autoamtically. So some data should be mutliple choice. I would put questions in like: * How did you hear about GNOME? * Do you use more than one computer? * What version of GNOME are you using? * What distribution are you using? * If there is a new version* * How many people do you know that use GNOME/Linux? * How would you rate GNOME (1-5) ? etc. So with that we would get a constant flow of user feedback. I would also add a free form field that we can look at - some kind of comments. With this data we would get at least some idea of who our users are. If this is really helpful we can not know now. I guess it will be. What do you think? regards, Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
need help with gnome-projects gnome-products
Hi, I have started to work out some plan for the projects ( http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/ProjectsPages) as this was not started yet. I like to know how we will distinguish this. I would like to know what the status of the Plone Software Center is and how the projects page shuld relate t the product page (http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/GnomeProducts). my guess is this the Plone guys are working on the module? I understand the structure like this: * Products (these are core GNOME applications, free software which are hosted all over the world) * Projects (so this can not be the same - I think this should rather be ONLY the applications that are hosted on WGO. If not I really see not much sense in two pages) I also could imagine that one links other projects on this. As there are the different teams. But this could be mixed but with Get involved What I really would find important for the future would be more streamlined project pages (software or not). What I am missing often are links to standard pages that should be on the same spot (that would be mailing lists, direct link to bugzilla, maybe news, screenshot,...). Not sure if these project pages have already been thought about or anybody works on this. If not maybe somebody would like to try to make a mockup based on what we have here http://www.gnome.org/projects/evince/ http://www.gnome.org/projects/epiphany/ and the new design (w header)? I have read again the threads about gnomefiles.org but I think this really does not help so much for our pages. I think GNOME itself is our main product/project - and everything else is a sub project - these are more or less far away from the GNOME core. What we should not do is to link away from GNOME.org in 1st or 2nd level of wgo. So rather have some standard pages for externaly hosted projects like Abiword and then link from these pages. I think the project pages itself do not need to be moved before GNOME 2.18 Another open question is if we should have a subdomain or not. My suggestion would be for now that we NOW just try to move every page in /projects to the new CMS. We can move them step by step with rewrites, so that all old projects will still be visible (thats how I would do it, but thats on the sysadmin team to decide) Any thoughts, comments, suggestions? regards, Thilo BTW: I think maybe it would be better if web structure and GNOME releases would not be synced because my feeling is that expecially when a release is coming people tend to have less time, so maybe web restructuring would be better at half-time of a release. I am not a developer - thats just a guess. Personally I dont like different projects to have the same deadline. -- Thilo Pfennig http://wiki.foresightlinux.com/confluence/display/~vinci/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME Project Organogram
On 2/11/07, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, while GNOME is Code the community is realizing that GNOME is People (yes, that meme) as well. I would draw perhaps a bi-polar structure with the release team developers in one side, and the board membership of the GNOME Foundation in another side, having around the respective teams/areas. Maybe there is no ONE view - and this can be seen as one possible view. Maybe there should be more than one organigram that can be discussed? Besides the organisational view I think what is really missing are what I see as the most important part of the GNOME: The users! One might think that without any hackers there would be no GNOME - but really without the users all this code would be for nothing. Maybe users are taken for granted today? But I really think that users are more important and that they are not really mentioned as part of the project gives a view of how GNOME views itself. Users appear as guests on the web pages - as a topic for the usability team and also as a target group for the marketing team. From some perspective GNOME sometimes looks exactly like that - as a user you sometimes feel splitted like the teans. One like some views, sometimes the usability, sometimes the application. So one meets different aspects but feels that GNOME does not really focus on the user. It focuses on usability, localisation, new users, exciting applications - but the user itself plays no role. I know - many might indicate that the user is included in all that - but what i mean is that if we primarily organize in teams with different focus the user itself gets out of focus, while her needs get different levels of attention. This is one of the main reasons why the desktop experience is often still frustrating and why some problems exist for just too many years without solution or with anybody taking of the problems. Often these are bugs or problems that need attention from different teams or even organisations (or even hardware vendors). The system GNOME (not the organisation) sure had to include the distributions and software companies with all different projects. So what happens to bring GNOME to the user or when a user reports a bug is a much bigger issue and much more complicated. Companies like Fluendo are also part of the GNOME system without beeing a GNOME team inside the organisation. Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Fwd: How do we want to do GNOME Marketing?
On 12/24/06, Joachim Noreiko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Thilo Pfennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When a user boots Ubuntu, they see the Ubuntu splash, the Ubuntu desktop background, and the Ubuntu logo on the panel. And that's as it should be -- otherwise, they'd say 'Hey, I put in an Ubuntu CD, what's this Gnome stuff?' Sure, thats true. This is a a problem of marketing. I also think that we have to rethink the marketing strategy here. There are roughly two options (but also ways inbetween): A. GNOME wants visibility at the user level and therefore has to implement a distribution mechanism that starts from the homepage. So this is abot: A user wants GNOME and can get it. B. GNOME does not care about visibility of its brand at the user level, instead we are working with ISVs and distributions,... . I think currently we have something of both but without a clear strategy. if we do not want either A nor B we must define C. If I should try to define it I would say: We want users to know what GNOME is and want them to request good and latest GNOME support from their sources. We then would want the sources to clerarly indicate that they have GNOME inside and how uptodate it is - and we must make sure that the quality of the packages is Ok. There is also a problem of support: If a user has a problem with one software he does not know if she should go to GNOME or distribution support. Generally I think that a distributed service would be better, although there will always be the problem of quality of the supported packages and the problem that not all package maintainers or distribution can handle bugreports for GNOME well. Also currently there is mostly no way for a user to report a bug in a language other than english. GNOME should think about the whole distribution and support cycle to make it better. Maybe one way would be to start to work with distributors to make GNOME as some kind of certification mark. GNOME and the distributors therefor have to agree on some standards and mechanisms. These should ensure a quality level for the software and the user. So these GNOME certified distributions (where these distributions could pay GNOME money for) then have a proven support and software quality. Those distribution than may advertise with this GNOME quality label. This would not mean at all to let down other channels - but GNOME today can not support all possible variations of installations - and does not want that. A nice thing would also be if one could some work somehow with distributions and the community to help supporting older distributions (like Fedora Unity and Fedora Legacy do as seperate projects for Fedora Linux) or GNOME versions. Maybe one could have a seperate bugzilla for distributions with old GNOME and then also collect all problems in this one bugzilla (merge databases?). Maybe some people than also like to make patches for these old GNOMEs that then get repackaged. But this is then more of technical discussion - just as an idea. There may be other ways to circumvent the brand problem. I see the way described above as a good way to move forward for future versions of GNOME. We can not solve this alone - we need the distributors to help us and they need us to make a better support and a better GNOME. And then we do not need to car so much about the visibility of the brand - we will then agree of how our brand and the distributors brand must or can be used. Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: How do we want to do GNOME Marketing?
On 12/23/06, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Following these 3 steps we may start building a successful 10x10 MT plan for 2007. Well maybe a bit too much simplification. Maybe we do not list so much - but still there is always much todo - and just reducing tasks will not make things better - bur priorities are good. Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Bugzilla or RT for Marketing list?
I thought maybe marketing team should also have a queue in RequestTracker (http://live.gnome.org/Sysadmin/RequestTracker )? Currently we work on the wiki pages, but I think to coordinate it would also would help us to put our tasks also in systems that are used in GNOME, also to make the work ouf the marketing team more transparent and also to be able to make dependencies between web hacking and marketing decisions. Personally I think request tracker is nicer for marketing tasks (I have made some experience with it some years ago) also because it handles contacts data so could also be used for managing press contacts etc. Also the adress data (press, etc.) should not be public. Any thoughts on this? Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
How do we want to do GNOME Marketing?
Hi, I have scanned our mailing list archive and found out that WGO revamp had taken much of our energy, while discussion about how we should do marketing were rare. You can many nice ideas in http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing, but the question is not only what target markets we have (http://live.gnome.org/MarketingTeam/TargetMarkets), survey, market segmentation, etc. It is also a question on HOW we want to do marketing. We can state: We need lobbying But who is going to do this? We are not distributors. What we are selling is the idea of a free desktop. if the GNOME Foundation is not paying somebody to actually do all the stuff that is discussed at the end we need to build on voluntary work and this means that it it very likely that these nice people are not going to do all we have dicussed on page. So I'd like to suggest to switch focus. In fact I think we should also learn from the developers. We should create marketing projects and have the tools that we need - and just start. I think that we do should not plan actual deployments, because this is the job of distributors and ISVs. It is nice to have the data that is collected at http://live.gnome.org/MarketingTeam/GnomeDeployments for ourselves - as motivation and also as an argument and BestPractice. But I think we should rather learn from the deployments and work on feedback also for the usability team ( http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityTeam) My understanding of marketing for GNOME would be to develop strategies and to help in communication between different parties like usabilty people, developers, freedesktop.org, KDE people, distributors, ISVs, companies, governments or simple users. The marketing team should define an overall goal for GNOME. We should not just invent slogans. We also should not try to sell GNOME. I think that we do not want that because than we would want people to use GNOME instead of KDE or other desktops. But that would not benefit but harm us! What I would like to see from the marketing team in the next months are efforts to define GNOME and to define its niche. What should GNOME be and who should want to use, what needs does GNOME fullfil ? How should GNOME feel (or how does it feel)? Keep on asking simple questions. The marketing team should combine all informations and experiences that are available. GNOME should define a core metaphor (rather than a message or goal). I think what we have so far at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/CoreMessage is not sufficient. We have to analyse where we are now, what makes GNOME special and what the overall direction of GNOME should be. We must look at our history and question the goals of yesterday. What have we accomplished? Many questions seem to be trivial, but the problem is that those that are heavily involved in GNOME tend not to see where GNOME is strong or week, because they ARE GNOME. They also often know how to circumvent problems. I like to write some things about how I see GNOME: As stated above I don#t think it is possible to state goals that nobody is going to work on. So we must be very realistic. GNOME is strong as one of the major free desktops. It is strong, because it listens to its users. My impression also is that it gets more interesting as a development platform for companies. Many users are satisfied with GNOME. There are also some interesting innovations like the NetworkManager and also some of the long-year annoyances are more openly spoken about and are worked on (printing, audio). Also usabilty was and is a focus of GNOME. Many things are not under GNOMEs control alone but have to do with other projects like the Linux kernel or the Mozilla project. Generally it seems that users that just want a working, elegant desktop grab GNOME and those who want to change everything grab KDE. But there is also much collaboration between those two projects and users use applications from both projects. On the community level my impression that in KDE there is more going on and people are generally more friendly to each other. OTOH GNOME is more stable and more often started projects to the benefit of every desktop or other projects outside of GNOME. GNOME has still great potential but is also very dependent on the success of Linux (and also other free software projects). Important projects like Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice.org are not part of GNOME but are part of the users experiences of what she thinks or sees as her GNOME. So a users view is mostly completely different from the GNOME insiders view. What to make of it? The fact that users loose a bunch of software means that a good GNOME marketing must take this into account. Rather than thinking of promoting GNOME we should do what is best in the users interest and also help in communication between different projects. Help defining a GNOME metaphor that inspires developers and users alike. And that should help GNOME to make its way. The marketing also should help to spread the ideas of GNOME
pointer for our artists
For our free artists I have seen a nice article on how to make money with free art that i want so share: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/blogs/making_money_on_free_art Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Suggest new section for GnomeJournal: Featured Application
I think as well as we do show users who is working behind the scenes it might also be interesting to have an article to one application. This application should be either: * most talked about * be very popular * or relevant from another perspective I think gnomefiles.org might be a help in choosing an application. We also should be able to reuse these articles on www.gnome.org (so again and issue of licenses). Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME Logo Branding Guidelines Concerns
2006/10/30, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It is probably worth strongly encouraging that local teams (whether based on region or language, because there will be / are both kinds) avoid any flags where possible. We can ask teams to consider other concepts before accepting the design. So I guess for now the way should be that every logo needs permission of the GNOME foundation if anything is changed? As we do not have guidelines for enhancing the logo for localisation. Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME Logo Branding Guidelines Concerns
2006/10/29, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thilo, nothing personal but I disagree again. ;) I just want to have this clear, so that we can move forward. And I think if we have made this point clear, many regional sites can do the same and we can link to a consensus (should then be in the wiki). I don't really care about the look so much as long as we can close this issue soon. Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: community.gnome.org
2006/10/31, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: About the regional sites, what about the following: - They will be listed altogether in a page under /About - They will be accessible from a special block in their localized wgo i.e. gnome.de linked in a block in the German version of wgo. This would apply to the default English too. We could have a link GNOME in the World or something linking to the complete listing in the page under /About. I would have to see that. Maybe somebody likes to do some mockups? Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: The wgo CMS can't wait more
2006/10/25, Andy Fitzsimon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Drupal it is ! ;-) Sorry, I'm a sucker for it as its the easiest to custom-theme. Thoughts ? I like Drupal, too. I find it quiet handy and easy because everything makes sense. My other experiences with CMS are mainly XOOPS (which i think is much worse), TikiWiki (too big), Zope (argh...), Mambo (never worked on my installations) and WordPad (which is a blog, not CMS). What I like most is the ability to work with many subdomains. I like Python but Zope was always a bit messy in my view, maybe this is different with Plone, which i have not tested, yet. Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: The wgo CMS can't wait more
2006/10/25, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As a matter of fact I think we can get a decent wgo with the 5 tools, in an ideal world with no time constraints and a good team of savvy CMS hackers. But we need to end up with one tool, the one that brings the best results with the minimum headaches for the type of website we want. Agreed. I suggest using the GoodEnough pattern ( http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GoodEnough). About Tiki: I think Tiki is a very bad choice. I have not so much experience but I know that it is not very secure and has bad code quality. It does not scale well. I know of a case where somebody had given up to use TikiWiki because it could not deal with large amounts of data. TikiWiki gives you all you want, but not the quality or security About Midgard: I have the feeling that it is similar from the goals (security, stability) as Drupal. So I also would say one of the two (Drupal, Midgard) should be chosen. BTW: KDE had also chosen Drupal for spreadkde.org. Why is here: http://www.spreadkde.org/about/faq#newsite I think the whole process to decide which CMS to use was too complicated (too many goals, too many requirements. I know this was done with the best intentions, but I also see it this way: Drupal or Midgard- one of them might even be better today - but is it tomorrow? So only real interesting question are: * Does it a good enough job? and: * Does the development go in the right direction? Are errors fixed or are the implementing features soon that we might want to use I think to look in future decisions sometimes it is better to act and trust in the spontaneous community feedback instead of going through intensive testing that takes YEARS and in the end the results reflect tests that have been made before some bugs where fixed. I Don' t think detailled testing makes sense. I think every month that GNOME lives without a choice is a lost month. Again: I think the intentions where very good, but I think it was a bit overkill. Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: [Fwd: GnomeWeb 2.18 goals]
2006/10/23, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Surely a completely different domain is even worse than a subdomain? The content already exists there, working URLs, etc. Why move it? I think a very strong argument pro keeping a website not beeing a subsite of .gnome.org is that people already have their bookmarks and are used to specific URLs. So I think every site that does exist should have good arguments why to move. I think one problem that we might get with wiki pages like that is that somebody writes something down and not everybody is questioning lists because some people think these are results beeing discussed already - there we come back to the problem of parallel channels. I think it is important if you add content to a page that you tell why this is listed. My impression was that these things were already discussed but now my impression is that this list does no represent the discussion about these topics. So somehow discussion and the list seemed to have gotten out of sync? Well this should never happen, because this will lead to serious problems when people are relying on the wikis content. Personally I would like to suggest to discuss some issues on the wikis primarily - and if some results of a discussion are added that then this is mentioned explicitly (best with source like email-url in mailing list) If we do not do things that way or similar this will lead to more different layers of knowledge and understanding: Some people are then working out of the context of the wiki and others relate to mailing list discussion. I also want to suggest to eliminate most mailing lists that GNOME is using now. I think most have very low traffic and its much more work to read ALL mails of some small projects to know the status of a project than to just open a wiki page and see the last status. I suggest we make a page that reviews the need for every mailing list. I do not vote agains mailing lists as a way of announcing changes, but I think that GNOME should not provide so much ressources. Every important information should also be present in the wiki. I think its just plain stupid that one has to subscribe and follow dozens of mailing lists and ALSO the wiki. We must condense and refine information and discussion. The thing a wiki can do is that you have one page where things are discussed and you always have the newest status instead of reading, understanding and interpreting dozends of lists. A wiki page should be a compromise and always reflect the real status. A mail in a mailing list alwayss can reflect the expression of one person and it is not transparent for outsiders if this mail is of any importants. I really think we need to take action now and move forward, because we seem to be getting first troubles in not having raised and handled those issues. We need more transparency! Thilo -- Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: [Fwd: GnomeWeb 2.18 goals]
2006/10/23, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have to send the fighting subdomain disease email in response to this. What is all this stuff? Why does it need a subdomain? I had similar feelings. I think a subdomain can be ok, but too much of this can be confusing. Thilo Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Because you have better stuff to do than fixing your computer
( I also reply to freedesktop) 2006/10/19, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can we borrow the Just Works! (tm) slogan? Actually I don't think that such slogans are a good idea. I think Windows, Mac, Intel and AOL already go that line that THEY enable the user to do cool things. I really think that we rather should communicate other values, that might not be as sexy, but maybe in the future. I would rather like to communicate: * GNOME is free software: Free your Desktop (I love to see this slogan to be a shared slogan of KDE, GNOME and others like: * Free you desktop with GNOME or * Free your desktop with KDE I think this is the most important one. It is not distinguishing GNOME from other desktops, but I really would not worry too much about the others. I think the simplicity GNOME has is more implict in relation to other desktops and does not matter much. You can not compete with Apple on the it just works metapher, because we really do not have the money, and on the other hand if we ask the question of freedom no proprietary desktop will ever be able to compete with a free desktop. * With a free desktop you get many applications and functionality without haveing to download and try shareware or buy applications that you then find out do not what you want. This is the other free desktop bonus. This should be formulated much simpler. This is also a point where Windows and Mac can not compete. They have some free programs like iTunes or Internet Explorer but they are not trying to provide everything. I also think that it does not makes too much sense to communicate how GNOME might be better. The thing is that GNOME is no distribution and we do not want people to get GNOME, really. But we are sending mixed messages. We really only can advertise the use of a free desktop and not the use of GNOME. We only can advertise GNOME as a basis for software developers. if we advertise GNOME instead of the use of a free desktop (like some kind of Linux) we are rather trying to say: GNOME is better than KDE. The same is true for the other way round. I think our target grouo should not be Unix/Linux users that use a free desktop but users coming from other platforms. So what i would vote for is some kind of coordinated attack of all forces of the free desktop movement including Mozilla Foundation. We are all in the same boat. And the boat is the free desktop. I would love to see more than just contacts and some exchange of information but rather an answer to: * How can we enable as much users as possible to free their desktop? How can we play together? I think it is essential that we all send one or two same message out repeatedly and also that we concentrate on those aspects. I think if we try to communicate with the just works-thingy we are actually trying to be good geeks that just not only try to have a geeky desktop but something that is betterin the same category as all the other just works-desktops. I would be very pessimistic in the success of such a try. I think it is a good sign that we try to make things work, no question, but I am quite sure that we would be a lot more successfull if we concentrate on those categories where we are the leaders. I have the feeling that we all have the tendency to forget about those values/categories because we are thinking for years that we have to catch up with the others. But this has kept us beeing desktop underdogs. Thats why I even do not try to convince people that a free desktop is more easier than what they are used to work with. Most people will always have more of the just works effect with what they are used to than with anything else. So there it just does not matter if GNOME or KDE are really somehow simpler. We must get to the people that are starting to think about their freedom on the desktop, that are tired of the dependency of the company policy of Apple and Microsoft. I think of people like Mark Pilgrim: http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/06/02/when-the-bough-breaks I think we can really build the best common ground on the arguments of why we think software should be free. I think people are not silly. We might not get everybody to switch, but that should not be our goal, either. Thilo Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Wow - look at the KDE news volume
2006/9/26, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The lesson, it appears to me, is that we should be looking for ways to have community news sources on news.google.com. No? Yes, I think this is it. The problem with gnomedesktop.org is I think that they do very few original reporting, they mostly cite other sites. BTW: Norway is THE GNOME country? Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
gnome.eu-Domain
Hi, is just looked after gnome.eu-Domain (that means European Union/Community) and found: http://www.gnome.eu/ owned by: Gnome Ltd. Gnome spol. s r. o., Mlynská dolina, 842 48 Bratislava, Slovakia my question is: How far are name rights for GNOME going inside EU? Should we have another domain or should this domain be ours? Thilo Blog: http://vinci.wordpress.com Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
GNOME group in SecondLife
Hi, as there is also a Linux client for SecondLife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SecondLife) I decided to try it out and also created a group for GNOME users. I would like to invite anybody interested in GNOME promotion to maybe use this opportunity to meet in a virtual environment. I would describe this as a multimedia chat room. It is possible to promote GNOME there if we can establish an alive community. This is a very new thing and I am also not sure about the outcome but i also made the experience that it is totally different to meet there as in a minimalistic chat. it could also be possible to make virtual GNOME demonstrations there with Screencasts or other things. The only bad thing at the moment is a) SecondLife is owned by only one company which is Linden Labs b) You must have a credit card (although you do not have to pay anything for a basic account) to sign up. I expect this thing to spread like the Internet - so that this will be more free. Also look at the Linux wiki I created at: http://stux.wikiinfo.org for collection of information for Linux users. Thilo PS: The Creative Commons organisation has started to use this VR extensively. -- http://vinci.wordpress.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Gnome Idea Pool maybe??
2006/2/25, Javier Aravena C. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There's been a lot of talk about what a marketing team should be like but we really haven't done a lot. The list have done some stuff, but that clearly doesn't clarify as a lot. there was people saying that marketing was about knowing what the people wants, so I was thinking we could have a wiki or something like that for ideas the people has for gnome. Anything, from ideas for topaz to feature requests for the next releases. I don't think that marketing team should work on next versions of GNOME, instead do marketing GNOME now and future versions. I think it is important that we do not mix things. Thilo -- http://vinci.wordpress.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
marketing Free Desktop
(this one goes to gnome-marketing and kde-promo) I have thougth about marketing GNOME for some time and came to this conclusion: We do not want to sell GNOME and we don't want to fight against KDE. So there is only one solution. We must market FreeDesktop instead! I would suggest to market GNOME and KDE together on many, many occasions. All Desktops must be presented as options that make a free desktop richer. Nobody would say it is bad to have Sylpheed AND Evolution as mail clients. KDE and GNOME do have different histories. And I don't see any of each going away in the next years. I would like to see each teams trying to get better. i think that both desktops enormously profit from better interaction. But this should not only be seen from the developer perspective. Many users mix application usages. There are definitely applications on both sides that outmatch any of the ones on the other side. The distributions do market both desktops together like printing KDE 3.4 and GNOME 2.10 as features ont their boxes. I don't know if freedesktop.org would be the right place to start with this kind of collaboration or if this is the right time or if people involved really want that? I think every effort to market one desktop will fail as long as there are so many options (also Xfce and others). I think it makes things not easier of you want to market two and more desktops, but is easier still then if each crew tries to get users from the other. We better should say that people should either stay at the desktop they like or encourage them to try out themselves. That would not mean that marketing the own desktop should not happen any more, but this should happen for one goal. Windows does also profit from a rich pool of applications. We should also not hesitate to recommend and application from the other side if that really is better. This is better for the users. What do you think? Thilo -- http://vinci.wordpress.com/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: GNOME en P2P networks
I overlooked the other then phrase. sorry. Surely Bittorent is the protocol which is mostly used for illegal movie downloads. i don't really see how a protocol can be illegal if it is not. -- http://www.pfennigsolutions.de -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: response to linus...?
I would prefer if we just work on that problem. I have documented some stuff. Personally I think the feedback of Till is much more constructive. I had created a wiki page in October, because I also think that printing is an important topic that needs to be fixed: http://live.gnome.org/GnomePrinting Thilo -- http://www.pfennigsolutions.de -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
2005/12/15, Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 12/14/05, Thilo Pfennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So GNOME is Ubuntu and/or Fedora Core. no, it's a desktop environment, which currently exists by default in ubuntu and fedora core (amongst other minor distros). Well, don't you think that if people like me, that know much of GNOME, get confused, people not knowing GNOME yet get even more confused. Confused people don't switch! So we should push these brands? We have to if we want success by the way of distros. not directly, but it wouldn't be bad if we pushed the desktop linux brand, alongside with many other parties (kde, ubuntu, etc). We are doing the work for others and they do get the profit? I think Mozilla Foundation is having a better strategy. Dont just say it is easier for them we are a product, but more in the line of intel (like someone said) than the line of firefox. GNOME inside? :-) Thilo -- http://www.pfennigsolutions.de -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: real marketing or just catchy slogans?
Hi, to Santiago Roza: I absolutely subscribe what you write. Actually I was writing a similar criticism.. about market segmentation.odt: I do not think that the approach is the right one, that is taken in there. This is a very product orientated model. And I think that is should nit be the point to persuade people to use GNOME. He cited a passage of John Williams and I think that was a good citation/point. I think we CAN choose what kind of users we target. What we choose now can be different in one or two years. I think we should know why we target what audience! And thinking that a target group is good is not enough. There should be more hard facts. I do not aggree on not targeting the mainstream desktop is a good idea! Dave NEary wrote: Because the mainstream will adopt Linux, not GNOME, and GNOME will just come along for the ride (see: Distributions and third party developers). And the mainstream isn't yet adopting linux on the desktop, so focussing energy there is a waste of our time. I don't think that this must be the case. GNOME clearly has to develop in other areas like ASP applications. We should not just follow the path of WIndows and say that we can not follow. I am absolutely convinced that a GNOME desktop can be competitive in the mainstream market. My impression is that GNOME really does not want to be loved. There is too much scepticism: On the one hand there are the hackers that know why they use GNOME, also the early adopters. And they do often communicate badly to the mainstream. If you look at the Ubuntu marketing you can learn that they just claim to be more human than other distros and gain a great new market share with it. This was ingenious! I also think that there is too less thought about how people actually will install there GNOME. I think that buy your distro, stupid is not a very good approach. Convincing ISVs is a nice idea and it will also pay off. What I would suggest is that there is also a way for a single user or a small company to test GNOME and also to install it very easy. Rigth now this is against our policy and I think this is wrong. I have the feeling we really want GNOME to be mainly for hackers and early adopters in the future. Linspire showed with Wal-Mart that Linux does not have to be in a niche market. People have some needs that they want to have solved. And GNOME can contribute, although I also think we have some more lessons to learn and our products have to be much better. Some products are very good and we should show them more prominent. Besides the applications we shuld show how GNOME is solving every day problems (by this I did not say anything about the target market) Thilo -- http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
GNOME-Windows-CD
Hi, is there allready a GNOME Windows-CD? I think this should have: 1. provide our best GNOME tools, GNOME destop images 2. maybe also a solution with Cygwin to run GNOME alternatively 3. Maybe a GNOME installer that wipes out Windows or has the ability to save the existing documents to a new partition. Thilo -- http://www.pfennigsolutions.de -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Some findings
Zitat von rajiv vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Google: This gets really interesting. There are 435 million times Linux appeared on Google vs. Microsoft 716 million -- that's fantastic. KDE is 15% more popular than GNOME on Google search, Well I sometimes think if it is not a bad sign if people need to use a search engine to get the information they want? ok, there are many people who use Google as a replacement for bookmarks now, but I am not sure how to calculate with that. It would be interesting to have some studies about search engine usage for that. -- Thilo Pfennig Alternativ.Net Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
multilanguage support
Am Dienstag, den 13.09.2005, 20:04 +1000 schrieb Hugh Buzacott: I am still pushing for a new GNOME.org so I created a mock-up. The mock-up is at http://www.geocities.com/bzctt/ and is only a front page but has links to the rest of normal GNOME.org through the header. It is just a suggestion so if you have any ideas and so forth just send them. What I think is very important for GNOME is the internationalisation. I think one could use the Apache multilanguage feature but also should let choose a user what language he likes to see. I think to have a page in as much languages as possible should be more important in GNOME than in Windows (as we du support more languages. I really hate that gnome.org only welcomes english speakers. I would liek to see a drop down language menu - maybe also for countries. Many companies do have suzch things. Some solutions: * http://www.ibm.com/ * http://www.dell.com/ * http://www.kde.org/ * http://www.volvo.com/ I think we should also support different languages, although there are local web pages form local GNOME representations. I look at GNOME.org as a central starting point. On the examples above you sometimes see a link to a local web site. I also would welcome such a solution. Thilo -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Wiki best practices
for the real enlightenment I would *strongly* suggest to dive into the primal wiki at: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki . It's very funny but also full of WikiWisdom! some interesting pages are: http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiGnome http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiSingleWordProblem http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?TipsFromWardCunningham from there you can endlessly browse from one common problem or misconception to the next. Thilo -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: [Usability] Re: Workspaces
Am Samstag, den 16.07.2005, 13:15 -0500 schrieb David Zulaica: This sounds more and more like you're saying GNOME should default to a kiosk mode or turning the computer into an appliance. I'm not too keen on that. There are an infinite number of things that a user can do with their computer. Users like doing things, but they also like doing _lots_ of things and multitasking. I did not want so say that GNOME should default to kiosk mode. I think that it is inside todays approach of GNOME to focus on the users needs. I think GNOME should have the ability to do kios mode and other things. I don't think that GNOME should always behave the same. I see GNOME more as a basis. I think there may be many sectoral software that could switch to GNOME if GNOME allows to easily develop desktop appliances. I think a homogenous desktop is an important goal, but companies do have many different requirements. For a bank it may be nice to have a central server and an appliance that is accessible via Netboot or XDMCP or whatever. And there are software companies that want to deliver such things. I think they would be happy if they get a basis where they do not have to add much, in order to deliver a good desktop appliance. I don't think that GNOME itself should develop in that direction, but I think this concept is very good for many purposes and GNOME should not ignore this. (I also copy my answer to gnome-marketing, maybe there are also some thoughts about this...) thilo -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
What are our goals? (was: Re: [Fwd: Re: New supporter] )
Besides the 10x10. What are our goals. With we i mean supporters/developers and users? I would say: make the best Desktop available. Be better than the others. Do we have a concrete audience? Why are we using GNOME instead of X,Y,Z? As a user I also would say: If there would be a better desktop I would switch. I don't see anything better right now. To be able to market GNOME it is good to know the pros and cons. What is GNOME btw? What if I use the GNOME desktop and a non-GNOME (KDE) application? Am I a GNOME user or a KDE user? And if I would use KDE and use GNOME-applications? So: What is a GNOME user? I only came across the question that was posed what a GNOME application is. But I think that this often does not matter for the user (more important for programers and GNOME foundation). What importance does freedesktop has for GNOME? If we want to reach a goal like 10x10 would this mean to reach that goals by all means necessary (even harm KDE?)? I believe that with the growth of a common denominator (via freedesktop, etc.) both desktops will gain success. This could mean that GNOME, although it sure should define its own goals maybe shopuld consider to do marketing together with KDE and other packages. What is the current situation with OpenOffice.org? I got a very mixes picture. On the one hand there is the Gnome-Office project which consist of Abiword and Gnumeric (right?). On the other hand Openoffice.org is not GNOME but is somehow an important part in argumentation, but not really loved by GNOME people? Same with Mozilla. Mozilla is somehow essential and there is cooperation, but the goals are ver different. There are some nasty bugs that are quite annoying in the GNOME defautl browser Epiphany that the Mozilla people do not fix, as they have workarounds in their applications. Ubuntu and Fedora choose Firefox as their default browser. This was a major set back in my eyes -a nd I really did not understand why the GNOME default browser was not default on the GNOME Live-CD. For marketing I think these mixed messages are poison. Some points may be only unclear, but they need to be cleared or thought out in order to send some clear messages. I think the commitmend of the KDE people to their Konqueror is much higher. How about those on the list? Who does use Epiphany on the day to day work? I do not because of these bugs. Can I expect others to use it then? So such points should be worked on. Maybe there should be more talk from GNOME marketing to Mozilla marketing if developers from both sides do not find together. This just as an example. There are many more issues. Thilo -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Any ideas on new gnome.org splash?
Am Donnerstag, den 30.06.2005, 19:52 -0500 schrieb David Moreno Garza: The heart is very, very nice. but I have a problem with the question. It sounds like GNOME is used rarely. It would be better if it sounds like the user certainly gives GNOME his/her love. Thilo -- this content is licensed under a Creative Commons license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
