Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Jeff]

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At 11:54 14/05/2013 -0700, Lester Schonbrun wrote:
>
>I've learned from these exchanges that some countries (e.g. Cuba, Iran),
>and factions close to the action (e.g. Lebanese Hezbollah, Syrian Marxists)
>see the events in Syria as US-led destabilization, rather than repression
>of a popular revolution.  These countries and factions have had
>considerable experience with US-led destabilization efforts, and it's not
>clear why they would side with Assad, if the opposition is truly more
>progressive.

Well of course the implication of this question amounts to yet another
appeal to authority rather than independent analysis (exactly what I had
identified as a fundamental error!). One could just as well ask the
opposite question: why do many others such as the list moderator who also
have had considerable experience with US-led destabilization efforts side
with the revolution? Or do you then answer the question by simply finding
out which side has the greater numbers (admittedly the anti-revolutionary
side currently has greater numbers among the left)? Does counting the
number of supporters of either side convey any new wisdom? If so, then why
even bother thinking for yourself?

But since you mentioned a few specific entities, I will answer the question
with regard to them:

1) Hezbollah. Yes, Hezbollah, which has a long and distinguished history in
repelling Israeli interference in Southern Lebanon, has sided with the
Syrian government even while all of the Palestinian factions (with the
unsurprising exception of the PFLP-GC) have distanced themselves from the
Syrian regime. This is unfortunate but didn't surprise me given that
Hezbollah has always relied on its relationship with the Syrian government
which in the past has had an important presence/influence inside Lebanon. I
don't think Hezbollah's success against Israel can be primarily attributed
to Syrian support, but Syria was certainly a key factor in the power
balance inside Lebanon, whose internal politics are reliant on such
alliances and overlapping interests.

I think Hezbollah was in error to continue supporting Assad in the face of
a grass-roots uprising, but I didn't expect their 30 year alliance to
crumble so fast. Now this is admittedly speculation, but I wonder if
Syria's (reported) (attempted?) transfer of long-range missiles to
Hezbollah was a quid pro quo in relation to their military support for
Assad against the FSA. After all, such weapons could have been supplied to
Hezbollah any time during the last decades by Syria, and probably under
less scrutiny. I fear that Hezbollah might suffer greatly from their
misplaced alliance with Assad, which would be very unfortunate.

2) Cuba. Well Cuba has also long had diplomatic relations with Syria, which
is entirely proper (as a state that has to navigate tactically within the
international arena), as they did with Libya. Their unfortunate opposition
to popular revolutions in both cases, I believe, amounted to putting their
diplomatic interests ahead of those of world revolution, which again is
very unfortunate but not without precedent. While I've been writing this, I
see that Louis has expanded in this regard. Using Lester's methodology one
could as well oppose the Mexican student revolt of 1968, asking "why else
would the Cubans have acted that way?"

3) Iran. Please!

4) Syrian Marxists. Well I'd say that the revolutionary Marxists of
Syria are supporting revolution in Syria, just as one would expect! But do
you mean the official Syrian communist parties (I believe there are 2,
following a split years ago)? Those parties have long given up any
semblance of revolutionary politics, and in order to run in elections --
which they must have seen as their most important strategy! -- they had to
accept the leading role of the Baath party and declare themselves as a
loyal opposition (with the emphasis clearly on loyal rather than opposition).

Meanwhile there are many other Syrian Marxists who are an integral part of
the uprising and have been so from the beginning. In particular I have
mentioned before the long time communist leader Riad al-Turk and also
George Sabra who is (or at least recently was) the chairman of the Syrian
National Council (SNC, not to be confused with the Syrian National
Coalition, aka the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and
Opposition Forces) formed sometime after the revolution started in 2011
(but which has been criticized for lacking direct involvement on the ground
while operating mainly from exile). So among Syrians who have called
themselves Marxists, there is also quite a division. We won't answer the
crucial questions simply by taking a poll among them, any more than they
should decide their orientation by taking a poll among Western Marxi

Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Louis Proyect]

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On 5/14/13 4:01 PM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:

"Cuba exercises realpolitik, something that is understandable for a small,
impoverished, and isolated postcapitalist society."

One could say that "realpolitik" would be to cave in to Great Satan,
because he can and will hurt you.  Cuba has not backed down for 53 years,
and has the scars to show for it.  How many countries, how many
individuals, can say that?  At the very least, their position and their
views deserve respect and consideration.




Another reminder, Lester, you need to clip extraneous text. Here is the 
method to do this. Using your mouse (an object about the size of a 
potato), highlight the extraneous text. Then depress the key marked 
"delete" on your keyboard, which should be to your extreme right. I hope 
that this positioning does not preclude the use of the delete key.


I am definitely pro-Cuba.

But I am definitely not pro-leftists who set themselves up as unpaid 
ministers of propaganda for Cuba. I don't want you to feel threatened or 
anything but their record on Marxmail has been rather poor. They tend to 
assume the position of someone speaking at Hyde Park when a more 
intimate and face-to-face type encounter is preferred.



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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Lester Schonbrun]

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"Cuba exercises realpolitik, something that is understandable for a small,
impoverished, and isolated postcapitalist society."

One could say that "realpolitik" would be to cave in to Great Satan,
because he can and will hurt you.  Cuba has not backed down for 53 years,
and has the scars to show for it.  How many countries, how many
individuals, can say that?  At the very least, their position and their
views deserve respect and consideration.


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> ==**==**==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==**==**==
>
>
> On 5/14/13 2:54 PM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:
>
>> I've learned from these exchanges that some countries (e.g. Cuba, Iran),
>> and factions close to the action (e.g. Lebanese Hezbollah, Syrian
>> Marxists)
>> see the events in Syria as US-led destabilization, rather than repression
>> of a popular revolution.  These countries and factions have had
>> considerable experience with US-led destabilization efforts, and it's not
>> clear why they would side with Assad, if the opposition is truly more
>> progressive.
>>
>
> Cuba exercises realpolitik, something that is understandable for a small,
> impoverished, and isolated postcapitalist society. During the student
> protests in Mexico in 1968, the Cuban press did not issue a single
> denunciation of the blood-stained PRI government. This was obviously
> because Mexico stood up for Cuba's sovereignty. While Castro's speech that
> year supporting the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia was filled with
> pointed observations about the flaws of Soviet-style socialism, it was not
> the critique that a Marxist might have made and for obvious reasons. Cuba
> relied on the USSR for economic survival. Also, not only did Cuba maintain
> ties with fascist Spain both before and after the overthrow of Batista; its
> press was careful not to lambaste repression there.
>
> But none of this should be a model for the radical movement that is not
> under any obligations to supply food, fuel or medicine to millions. Our
> only obligation is to tell the truth.
>
>
>
> __**__
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> Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.edu
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> utah.edu/mailman/options/**marxism/schonbrun%40gmail.com
>

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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Louis Proyect]

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On 5/14/13 2:54 PM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:

I've learned from these exchanges that some countries (e.g. Cuba, Iran),
and factions close to the action (e.g. Lebanese Hezbollah, Syrian Marxists)
see the events in Syria as US-led destabilization, rather than repression
of a popular revolution.  These countries and factions have had
considerable experience with US-led destabilization efforts, and it's not
clear why they would side with Assad, if the opposition is truly more
progressive.


Cuba exercises realpolitik, something that is understandable for a 
small, impoverished, and isolated postcapitalist society. During the 
student protests in Mexico in 1968, the Cuban press did not issue a 
single denunciation of the blood-stained PRI government. This was 
obviously because Mexico stood up for Cuba's sovereignty. While Castro's 
speech that year supporting the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia was 
filled with pointed observations about the flaws of Soviet-style 
socialism, it was not the critique that a Marxist might have made and 
for obvious reasons. Cuba relied on the USSR for economic survival. 
Also, not only did Cuba maintain ties with fascist Spain both before and 
after the overthrow of Batista; its press was careful not to lambaste 
repression there.


But none of this should be a model for the radical movement that is not 
under any obligations to supply food, fuel or medicine to millions. Our 
only obligation is to tell the truth.




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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Lester Schonbrun]

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Jeff wrote: "The only good to have come out of these exchanges, is that I
now can begin to understand how millions of well-meaning communists in the
1930's could have "known" without question that Trotsky was an agent of
fascism, and acted accordingly."

I've learned from these exchanges that some countries (e.g. Cuba, Iran),
and factions close to the action (e.g. Lebanese Hezbollah, Syrian Marxists)
see the events in Syria as US-led destabilization, rather than repression
of a popular revolution.  These countries and factions have had
considerable experience with US-led destabilization efforts, and it's not
clear why they would side with Assad, if the opposition is truly more
progressive.

Les.




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>

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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Dan Weiner]

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And Actually Kissinger with lack of originality stole that from British
Prime minister Palmerston who said that Britain had neither eternal friends
nor eternal foes but eternal interests.
Bourgeois originality I suppose, why make a new statement when you can rip
off a good one one of your class confederates already came up with--smile.

Good day to all,

Fraternally,

Dan W.

 

-Original Message-
From: marxism-bounces+dcwein=dcwein.cnc@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+dcwein=dcwein.cnc@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu]
On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:53 PM
To: Dan Weiner
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

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On 5/13/13 3:38 PM, Dan Weiner wrote:
> But I remember deamonization of Col. Qaddhafi all the way back in the 
> eighties when Reagan made his ridiculous claims about a team of Libyan 
> hitmen dispatched to the US.
> Anywayone remember, what fond memories of Mr. Reagan and his 
> extravegant statements, like his Evil Empire statement at the speech 
> of Evangelicals in Orlando, my howmetown.--smile.

Exactly.

But that demonization came to an end after he agreed to American demands
over compensating the victims of Lockerbie and to cancel development of
WMD's (not that there was such any efforts to begin with.) Not long after
smoothing things over with the West, he embarked on a neoliberal economic
road just like the kind that Bashar al-Assad had embraced. The bottom line
is that from that point onward, the demonization was suspended. It began
again after the rebels looked like they might win. 
Then the West rediscovered that Qaddafi was a bad guy. As Henry Kissinger
once said, "America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests."



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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Louis Proyect]

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On 5/13/13 3:38 PM, Dan Weiner wrote:

But I remember deamonization of Col. Qaddhafi all the way back in the
eighties when Reagan made his ridiculous claims about a team of Libyan
hitmen dispatched to the US.
Anywayone remember, what fond memories of Mr. Reagan and his extravegant
statements, like his Evil Empire statement at the speech of Evangelicals in
Orlando, my howmetown.--smile.


Exactly.

But that demonization came to an end after he agreed to American demands 
over compensating the victims of Lockerbie and to cancel development of 
WMD's (not that there was such any efforts to begin with.) Not long 
after smoothing things over with the West, he embarked on a neoliberal 
economic road just like the kind that Bashar al-Assad had embraced. The 
bottom line is that from that point onward, the demonization was 
suspended. It began again after the rebels looked like they might win. 
Then the West rediscovered that Qaddafi was a bad guy. As Henry 
Kissinger once said, "America has no permanent friends or enemies, only 
interests."




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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Dan Weiner]

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But I remember deamonization of Col. Qaddhafi all the way back in the
eighties when Reagan made his ridiculous claims about a team of Libyan
hitmen dispatched to the US.
Anywayone remember, what fond memories of Mr. Reagan and his extravegant
statements, like his Evil Empire statement at the speech of Evangelicals in
Orlando, my howmetown.--smile.

Dan W.

 

-Original Message-
From: marxism-bounces+dcwein=dcwein.cnc@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+dcwein=dcwein.cnc@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu]
On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:18 PM
To: Dan Weiner
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

==
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==


On 5/13/13 2:26 PM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:
> I claim there is a similarity between reporting of events in Syria and 
> past reporting about Iraq, Panama, Nicaragua, Yugoslavia, Libya, etc..  
> It seems to me that Assad is being singled out in the way Hussein, 
> Noriega, Ortega, Qaddafi, and Milosevic were.

This is not true, at least with respect to Liyba. Until the Arab Spring,
there was not much in the way of Qaddafi demonization. I wrote about this
here:

http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/what-5-years-of-lexis-nexis-rev
eals-about-libya-and-the-west/

This was typical:

The Washington Post
November 6, 2007 Tuesday
Oil Wealth Fuels Gaddafi's Drive For Reinvention

By Ellen Knickmeyer; Washington Post Foreign Service

DATELINE: TRIPOLI, Libya

Brother Leader Moammar Gaddafi still exhorts his people to greatness from
billboards, banners and murals. But these days a different kind of command
is driving Libya's transformation as the newly opened country taps into oil
wealth: "izala," Arabic for "raze it to the ground."

Surveyors are spraying the word in red paint up and down Libya's
Mediterranean coast. The orange-vested road crews are tagging for demolition
the old Libya - low-rise, stucco Libya, sleepy under decades of Gaddafi's
socialist economy and international sanctions.

To rise in its place, Gaddafi's officials say: the increasingly capitalist
Libya, with new buildings for the country's new stock exchange. Airports to
ferry in and out a dreamed-of annual flow of 30 million oil workers,
tourists and other travelers. The world's second-largest port after
Singapore. Railways. Highways. Hospitals. 
Schools. Luxury beachfront hotels.

Libyans and Westerners here cite a statement attributed to Gaddafi: 
Libya must destroy in order to rebuild.

"I can't believe they're going to do it," one white-haired shopkeeper said
this past weekend at his snack shop on the coast road east of the capital,
Tripoli. "Izala" was scrawled across the front of his sandstone shop,
marking it for bulldozing to clear the way for a highway.

(clip)

I an understand why Lester has so little understanding of the press coverage
on Libya before the Arab Spring or the hostility toward the Syrian
opposition leader in Foreign Policy magazine.

If your take on these issues is based on a steady diet of wsws.org, the PSL,
Voltairenet, Global Research, MRZine et al, you would be left with no other
conclusion. That, after all, is the purpose of propaganda.





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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Louis Proyect]

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On 5/13/13 2:26 PM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:

I claim there is a similarity between reporting of events in Syria and past
reporting about Iraq, Panama, Nicaragua, Yugoslavia, Libya, etc..  It seems
to me that Assad is being singled out in the way Hussein, Noriega, Ortega,
Qaddafi, and Milosevic were.


This is not true, at least with respect to Liyba. Until the Arab Spring, 
there was not much in the way of Qaddafi demonization. I wrote about 
this here:


http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/what-5-years-of-lexis-nexis-reveals-about-libya-and-the-west/

This was typical:

The Washington Post
November 6, 2007 Tuesday
Oil Wealth Fuels Gaddafi’s Drive For Reinvention

By Ellen Knickmeyer; Washington Post Foreign Service

DATELINE: TRIPOLI, Libya

Brother Leader Moammar Gaddafi still exhorts his people to greatness 
from billboards, banners and murals. But these days a different kind of 
command is driving Libya’s transformation as the newly opened country 
taps into oil wealth: “izala,” Arabic for “raze it to the ground.”


Surveyors are spraying the word in red paint up and down Libya’s 
Mediterranean coast. The orange-vested road crews are tagging for 
demolition the old Libya — low-rise, stucco Libya, sleepy under decades 
of Gaddafi’s socialist economy and international sanctions.


To rise in its place, Gaddafi’s officials say: the increasingly 
capitalist Libya, with new buildings for the country’s new stock 
exchange. Airports to ferry in and out a dreamed-of annual flow of 30 
million oil workers, tourists and other travelers. The world’s 
second-largest port after Singapore. Railways. Highways. Hospitals. 
Schools. Luxury beachfront hotels.


Libyans and Westerners here cite a statement attributed to Gaddafi: 
Libya must destroy in order to rebuild.


“I can’t believe they’re going to do it,” one white-haired shopkeeper 
said this past weekend at his snack shop on the coast road east of the 
capital, Tripoli. “Izala” was scrawled across the front of his sandstone 
shop, marking it for bulldozing to clear the way for a highway.


(clip)

I an understand why Lester has so little understanding of the press 
coverage on Libya before the Arab Spring or the hostility toward the 
Syrian opposition leader in Foreign Policy magazine.


If your take on these issues is based on a steady diet of wsws.org, the 
PSL, Voltairenet, Global Research, MRZine et al, you would be left with 
no other conclusion. That, after all, is the purpose of propaganda.






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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Louis Proyect]

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On 5/13/13 2:47 PM, Gulf Mann wrote:

In a conflict between Ruling Class dictators and religious fundamentalists,
both of which have the blood of progressives/Leftists on their hands, my
position tends toward neutrality. Fie on both their houses. Let them
continue to slaughter one another. When my enemies fight, I wish them both
well.



I wasn't aware that the FSA has been killing progressives. For that 
matter, the al-Nusra front has not been trying to eliminate secular 
opponents of al-Assad even though their program is pretty retrograde.





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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Gulf Mann]

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==


In a conflict between Ruling Class dictators and religious fundamentalists,
both of which have the blood of progressives/Leftists on their hands, my
position tends toward neutrality. Fie on both their houses. Let them
continue to slaughter one another. When my enemies fight, I wish them both
well.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> I claim there is a similarity between reporting of events in Syria and past
> reporting about Iraq, Panama, Nicaragua, Yugoslavia, Libya, etc..  It seems
> to me that Assad is being singled out in the way Hussein, Noriega, Ortega,
> Qaddafi, and Milosevic were.  What followed in the past was US or Nato
> bombardment, the devastation of the respective countries, with ordinary
> people taking the heaviest toll, etc., the privatization of what had
> previously been socialized, and etc.  I am asking for clarification: What
> makes some so certain this isn't another instance of that pattern?
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Clay Claiborne 
> wrote:
>
> > ==
> > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > ==
> >
> >
> > I don't know how you think  there is "an intense zeroing in on “human
> > rights” violations." by the MSM in Syria. There has just been a very
> brutal
> > massacre of 1000-1500 Syria's around Banias between May-2-5 and hardly a
> > word about it was said on the MSM.
> >
> > If they wanted to built a war fever around Syria all they would have to
> do
> > is report what is really happening on the human rights front, no babies
> in
> > incubators needed, but they don't. The true extent of the humanitarian
> > situation is being hidden by the MSM. The question is why and what does
> > that do to your thesis.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Lester Schonbrun  > >wrote:
> >
> > > ==
> > > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > > ==
> > >
> > >
> > > Two Thoughts on Syria.
> > >
> > > 1. The media coverage of Syria is strikingly similar to coverage of
> Iraq
> > > before our “leaders” invaded that country, similar to Chile before the
> > CIA
> > > sponsored the coup and murder of Allende, similar to Panama before we
> > > bombed them, ditto Libya, and I could name many more.  In those cases,
> > > there was an intense zeroing in on “human rights” violations.  That
> focus
> > > was a precursor to US aggression.  How is this different?
> > >
> > > 2. Why do we save characterizations like “bloodthirsty” for leaders of
> > > other countries, when our leaders have shed more blood than all others
> > > combined?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Michael Karadjis  > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ==**==**==
> > > > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a
> message.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ==**==**==
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message - From: Shane Mage
> > > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Assad's Western defenders either don't mention Israel at all when
> > >they
> > > >> list the countries they think are waging "war on Syria" (and >hope
> > > no-one
> > > >> notices the omission); or, even worse, they add Israel to >their
> list
> > > >> despite the evidence (and hope no-one notices).
> > > >>
> > > >> A very odd reaction to the Israeli aggressions! It could be said
> > > >> accurately the Israel is waging war
> > > >>
> > > > directly, the West economically, the Arab dictatorships by proxy as
> > well
> > > > as ideologically. None of which, of course, justifies a smidgen of
> > > support
> > > > for Assad!
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > If you mean actual war on Syria, then exactly, Israel is the only
> state
> > > > that has actually waged war, with these latest bombings, and in any
> > case
> > > > with the 46 year occupation sovereign Syrian territory in the Golan,
> it
> > > is
> > > > in a state of war.
> > > >
> > > > But the post was not talking about war on Syria, but about the "war
> on
> > > > Syria," ie, leftist code for the 99% indigenous Syrian uprising
> (quite
> > > > separate is the issue of the proportion of this uprising that is
> still
> > > > democratic v the proportion th

Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Lester Schonbrun]

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Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


I claim there is a similarity between reporting of events in Syria and past
reporting about Iraq, Panama, Nicaragua, Yugoslavia, Libya, etc..  It seems
to me that Assad is being singled out in the way Hussein, Noriega, Ortega,
Qaddafi, and Milosevic were.  What followed in the past was US or Nato
bombardment, the devastation of the respective countries, with ordinary
people taking the heaviest toll, etc., the privatization of what had
previously been socialized, and etc.  I am asking for clarification: What
makes some so certain this isn't another instance of that pattern?


On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Clay Claiborne  wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> I don't know how you think  there is "an intense zeroing in on “human
> rights” violations." by the MSM in Syria. There has just been a very brutal
> massacre of 1000-1500 Syria's around Banias between May-2-5 and hardly a
> word about it was said on the MSM.
>
> If they wanted to built a war fever around Syria all they would have to do
> is report what is really happening on the human rights front, no babies in
> incubators needed, but they don't. The true extent of the humanitarian
> situation is being hidden by the MSM. The question is why and what does
> that do to your thesis.
>
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Lester Schonbrun  >wrote:
>
> > ==
> > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > ==
> >
> >
> > Two Thoughts on Syria.
> >
> > 1. The media coverage of Syria is strikingly similar to coverage of Iraq
> > before our “leaders” invaded that country, similar to Chile before the
> CIA
> > sponsored the coup and murder of Allende, similar to Panama before we
> > bombed them, ditto Libya, and I could name many more.  In those cases,
> > there was an intense zeroing in on “human rights” violations.  That focus
> > was a precursor to US aggression.  How is this different?
> >
> > 2. Why do we save characterizations like “bloodthirsty” for leaders of
> > other countries, when our leaders have shed more blood than all others
> > combined?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Michael Karadjis  > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> ==**==**==
> > > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > >
> >
> ==**==**==
> > >
> > >
> > > - Original Message - From: Shane Mage
> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >Assad's Western defenders either don't mention Israel at all when
> >they
> > >> list the countries they think are waging "war on Syria" (and >hope
> > no-one
> > >> notices the omission); or, even worse, they add Israel to >their list
> > >> despite the evidence (and hope no-one notices).
> > >>
> > >> A very odd reaction to the Israeli aggressions! It could be said
> > >> accurately the Israel is waging war
> > >>
> > > directly, the West economically, the Arab dictatorships by proxy as
> well
> > > as ideologically. None of which, of course, justifies a smidgen of
> > support
> > > for Assad!
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > > If you mean actual war on Syria, then exactly, Israel is the only state
> > > that has actually waged war, with these latest bombings, and in any
> case
> > > with the 46 year occupation sovereign Syrian territory in the Golan, it
> > is
> > > in a state of war.
> > >
> > > But the post was not talking about war on Syria, but about the "war on
> > > Syria," ie, leftist code for the 99% indigenous Syrian uprising (quite
> > > separate is the issue of the proportion of this uprising that is still
> > > democratic v the proportion that is reactionary-sectarian). It is code
> > for
> > > support for Assad's bloodthirsty repression. Pro-Assad leftists usually
> > > list Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, the US and other imperialist powers.
> My
> > > contention is that to the extent to which it is true - ie actual arming
> > of
> > > the reactionary-sectarian elements - it only concerns those first three
> > > countries, not the US.
> > >
> > > Above all it does not include Israel, which, notwithstanding its actual
> > > acts of war on Syria as a country and the Syrian people, has a distinct
> > > preference for the Assad regime over the popular opposition in the war
> > > going on.
> > >
> > > __**__
> > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.edu<
> > Marxis

Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Clay Claiborne]

==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==


I don't know how you think  there is "an intense zeroing in on “human
rights” violations." by the MSM in Syria. There has just been a very brutal
massacre of 1000-1500 Syria's around Banias between May-2-5 and hardly a
word about it was said on the MSM.

If they wanted to built a war fever around Syria all they would have to do
is report what is really happening on the human rights front, no babies in
incubators needed, but they don't. The true extent of the humanitarian
situation is being hidden by the MSM. The question is why and what does
that do to your thesis.


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> Two Thoughts on Syria.
>
> 1. The media coverage of Syria is strikingly similar to coverage of Iraq
> before our “leaders” invaded that country, similar to Chile before the CIA
> sponsored the coup and murder of Allende, similar to Panama before we
> bombed them, ditto Libya, and I could name many more.  In those cases,
> there was an intense zeroing in on “human rights” violations.  That focus
> was a precursor to US aggression.  How is this different?
>
> 2. Why do we save characterizations like “bloodthirsty” for leaders of
> other countries, when our leaders have shed more blood than all others
> combined?
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Michael Karadjis  >wrote:
>
> >
> ==**==**==
> > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> >
> ==**==**==
> >
> >
> > - Original Message - From: Shane Mage
> >
> >> >
> >> >Assad's Western defenders either don't mention Israel at all when >they
> >> list the countries they think are waging "war on Syria" (and >hope
> no-one
> >> notices the omission); or, even worse, they add Israel to >their list
> >> despite the evidence (and hope no-one notices).
> >>
> >> A very odd reaction to the Israeli aggressions! It could be said
> >> accurately the Israel is waging war
> >>
> > directly, the West economically, the Arab dictatorships by proxy as well
> > as ideologically. None of which, of course, justifies a smidgen of
> support
> > for Assad!
> >
> >>
> >>
> > If you mean actual war on Syria, then exactly, Israel is the only state
> > that has actually waged war, with these latest bombings, and in any case
> > with the 46 year occupation sovereign Syrian territory in the Golan, it
> is
> > in a state of war.
> >
> > But the post was not talking about war on Syria, but about the "war on
> > Syria," ie, leftist code for the 99% indigenous Syrian uprising (quite
> > separate is the issue of the proportion of this uprising that is still
> > democratic v the proportion that is reactionary-sectarian). It is code
> for
> > support for Assad's bloodthirsty repression. Pro-Assad leftists usually
> > list Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, the US and other imperialist powers. My
> > contention is that to the extent to which it is true - ie actual arming
> of
> > the reactionary-sectarian elements - it only concerns those first three
> > countries, not the US.
> >
> > Above all it does not include Israel, which, notwithstanding its actual
> > acts of war on Syria as a country and the Syrian people, has a distinct
> > preference for the Assad regime over the popular opposition in the war
> > going on.
> >
> > __**__
> > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.edu<
> Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu>
> > Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.**
> > utah.edu/mailman/options/**marxism/schonbrun%40gmail.com<
> http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/schonbrun%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
> http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/clayclai%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Rajesh Roy]

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==




Don't you realize that you are embarrassing yourself by writing these 
things? But then again, anybody who wrote for Jared Israel's website is 
probably beyond being embarrassed.



Wish to point out that even the right to recognize what forms embarassment is 
being sought to usurped by the vanguard..




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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Louis Proyect]

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==


On 5/9/13 9:54 AM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:

All I know or remember about Jared Israel is that he had a website
denouncing the war on Serbia, that he liked some things I wrote against
that war, and posted them.



I had a sense that Israel (aptly named) was going off the tracks when he 
began championing Putin. There was always a streak of Islamophobia in 
his website that became more pronounced after 9/11. He became a 
"truther" on the basis that the CIA and "jihadists" had common 
interests. Then, eventually, he became a rabid Zionist as his hatred of 
Muslims reached a fever pitch.


All of this is relevant to me know in the aftermath of the Boston 
Marathon bombings which left many commentators agreeing that Muslim 
terror should bring the US and Russia closer together. That explains 
Kerry kissing up to Putin over Syria.


I am going to be posting about Chechnya in a few days, which is really 
the strategy that al-Assad is applying in Syria. Aleppo looks a lot like 
Grozny. They say that Saddam Hussein kept Stalin's works on his 
bookshelf. If the imbecile Putin had a brain and was capable of writing 
a book, I am sure that it would have ended up on al-Assad's shelf.




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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Lester Schonbrun]

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==


All I know or remember about Jared Israel is that he had a website
denouncing the war on Serbia, that he liked some things I wrote against
that war, and posted them.

But I’m glad that was brought up, because I think the demonization of
Milosevic resembles the demonization of Assad, and is a shining example of
the pattern of creating a demon du jour, the better to bomb, divide,
conquer and create another remote stronghold for the US army, while
chopping up a quasi-socialist country with many social guarantees that
Americans hunger for into smaller political entities.  Those smaller
countries, stripped of any safety net, are far more vulnerable and
delectable to US, British, French and German corporate dominance.

For about a decade before the US dumped bombs and cruise missiles on to the
heads of helpless Serbs in 1999, it was rare to see a NY Times without
coming across an article that made you want to hate Serbs and Milosevic.  I
remember being scoffed at by a friend for thinking this was a precursor to
US/Nato aggression.

Today we hear next to nothing about that region.  Has life improved there
because we succeeded in helping break the country into six or more ethnic
enclaves and bringing in the IMF, and strippig the country of its social
safety net?

I believe Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo is one of our biggest and most modern
overseas bases, Jacuzzis and all.  I don’t believe we have done anything to
improve anyone’s life in the Balkans, except stop reporting the misery once
the corporate goals had been achieved.

The same could be said for Iraq, Libya, Panama, Vietnam, Korea,
Afghanistan, and a very long list of others.

LS


On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:52 AM, Dan Weiner  wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> No offence, Louis, but I have no idea what you are talking about--smile.
> What is the web site you are referring to?
>
> Honestly, Lester has a point.
> I am pretty sure that Assad is not an ideal leader whom I as a Marxist
> could
> endorse--smile.
> The thing that worries me is what our own imperialism is planning an
> intervention in Syria.
>
> Since, Louis, I notice you don't suffer fools  lightly, I ask you to be
> gentle with me...do you think we are witnessing  a pre- Iraq style
> propaganda build-up to an intervention headed by US imperialism in Syria?
>
> Right now I am not addressing whether the rebels are good guys or not, but
> asking about what imperialism's intentions are.
> I know you're not a mind-reader, but just trying to get a take on your
> analysis.
>
> Once again, thanks for all the hard work in keeping this list going.
>
>
> Fraternally,
>
> Dan W.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: marxism-bounces+dcwein=dcwein.cnc@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> [mailto:marxism-bounces+dcwein=
> dcwein.cnc@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu]
> On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 2:59 AM
> To: Dan Weiner
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality
>
> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> On 5/9/13 2:45 AM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:
> > It's a sad fact that I have no idea whose reporting to trust about Syria.
> >   I watched the video.  I saw no way of telling from it alone who or
> > what was responsible for the destruction.  I would think that our "black
> ops"
> > people, or the Mossad's, are capable of such false-flag operations,
> > but who can say for sure?
>
> Don't you realize that you are embarrassing yourself by writing these
> things? But then again, anybody who wrote for Jared Israel's website is
> probably beyond being embarrassed.
>
>
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
>
> http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/dcwein%40dcwein
> .cnc.net
>
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
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>

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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Jeff]

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==


This thread and recent discussion over the Syrian revolution has exposed so
many misconceptions (or should I say "successful disinformation") and
confusion that answering each point would make for a long post that no one
would want to read through. Moreover it would just be repeating answers
that have already been posted but ignored or disbelieved given the noise
level. Or explanations that are resisted because they have too much in
common with reports in the bourgeois press or pronouncements by bourgeois
politicians. All of which is understandable, but is no excuse for lazy
thinking. If one simply goes by the preponderance of overloaded information
to come to a conclusion, or just rates the truthfulness of each datum
according to the point of view of the information source, then one will be
left in a quandary. Or worse, they will resort to basing their conclusion
on analogies -- most notably the 2002-2003 disinformation campaign against
Saddam Hussein -- rather than using their critical faculties.

Most surprisingly at all, one might think that those posting on this list
are unaware of current developments widely reported in the media,
uncontroversially. In particular, the US and Russia are planning to
negotiate/impose a solution involving neither side winning but a
"negotiated settlement" between the revolution and the regime (the same
non-solution that the last two UN representatives attempted, and of course
failed at). This is of course absolutely unacceptable to ANY of the rebel
groups, as any such possibility for negotiation was drowned in blood 2
years ago when Assad brutally suppressed the peaceful demonstrations. If
Russia and the US (and others?) do come to such an agreement, it will
amount to the world's superpowers conspiring against the Syrian revolution.
Their rhetorics are already converging, with the predominant US concern
with the growing role of Jihadists, and the Russian/Syrian claim that it
has always been an "al-Q'aeda" operation to overthrow the nominally secular
government. It is sad to see intelligent people on the left parrot that
concern while totally denying the validity of the popular revolution in
progress (or any such aspects of the situation which defy the "terrorism"
narrative).

- Jeff


At 06:52 09/05/2013 -0400, Dan Weiner wrote:

>The thing that worries me is what our own imperialism is planning an
>intervention in Syria.





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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Dan Weiner]

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==


No offence, Louis, but I have no idea what you are talking about--smile.
What is the web site you are referring to?

Honestly, Lester has a point.
I am pretty sure that Assad is not an ideal leader whom I as a Marxist could
endorse--smile.
The thing that worries me is what our own imperialism is planning an
intervention in Syria.
 
Since, Louis, I notice you don't suffer fools  lightly, I ask you to be
gentle with me...do you think we are witnessing  a pre- Iraq style
propaganda build-up to an intervention headed by US imperialism in Syria?

Right now I am not addressing whether the rebels are good guys or not, but
asking about what imperialism's intentions are.
I know you're not a mind-reader, but just trying to get a take on your
analysis.

Once again, thanks for all the hard work in keeping this list going.


Fraternally,

Dan W.



-Original Message-
From: marxism-bounces+dcwein=dcwein.cnc@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces+dcwein=dcwein.cnc@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu]
On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 2:59 AM
To: Dan Weiner
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

==
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==


On 5/9/13 2:45 AM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:
> It's a sad fact that I have no idea whose reporting to trust about Syria.
>   I watched the video.  I saw no way of telling from it alone who or 
> what was responsible for the destruction.  I would think that our "black
ops"
> people, or the Mossad's, are capable of such false-flag operations, 
> but who can say for sure?

Don't you realize that you are embarrassing yourself by writing these
things? But then again, anybody who wrote for Jared Israel's website is
probably beyond being embarrassed.




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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Michael Karadjis]

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==


- Original Message - 
From: "Lester Schonbrun" 


1. The media coverage of Syria is strikingly similar to coverage of Iraq
before our “leaders” invaded that country, similar to Chile before the 
CIA

sponsored the coup and murder of Allende, similar to Panama before we
bombed them, ditto Libya, and I could name many more.  In those cases,
there was an intense zeroing in on “human rights” violations.  That 
focus

was a precursor to US aggression.  How is this different?

May or may not be different. We'll see what happens in coming weeks and 
months. But if the US suddenly changes course and decides the situation 
is so beyond repair that the only way to salvage something out of the 
Syrian mess is to launch a blind catastrophic intervention, that *new* 
situation would not retrospectively make the last two years of peaceful 
and armed popular uprising in Syria a "US war on Syria", and it was 
arguing against this absurd leftist code for hating the Syrian people, 
and solidarising with its killers, that was the purpose of the 
*analytical* piece. I doubt Murdoch will find it and use it if the 
situation changes.


2. Why do we save characterizations like “bloodthirsty” for leaders of
other countries, when our leaders have shed more blood than all others
combined?

You can speak for yourself if that's what you do. For me, referring to 
wars and repression launched by the US, Israel and US-backed and armed 
regimes as bloodthirsty is pretty normal. Maybe if you try it you'll 
feel better about calling Assad by the correct name too. 




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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Louis Proyect]

==
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==


On 5/9/13 2:45 AM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:

It’s a sad fact that I have no idea whose reporting to trust about Syria.
  I watched the video.  I saw no way of telling from it alone who or what
was responsible for the destruction.  I would think that our “black ops”
people, or the Mossad’s, are capable of such false-flag operations, but who
can say for sure?


Don't you realize that you are embarrassing yourself by writing these 
things? But then again, anybody who wrote for Jared Israel's website is 
probably beyond being embarrassed.





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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Lester Schonbrun]

==
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==


It’s a sad fact that I have no idea whose reporting to trust about Syria.
 I watched the video.  I saw no way of telling from it alone who or what
was responsible for the destruction.  I would think that our “black ops”
people, or the Mossad’s, are capable of such false-flag operations, but who
can say for sure?

Given my distrust of the media, I can’t dispute or affirm the
characterization of Assad.  Maybe I was wrong to compare him to Allende.
 But take Hussein and Noriega.  I certainly don’t claim these were
socialist heroes, yet I think it was absolutely correct to resist the
demonization of them, for that demonization was clearly part of a US neocon
design to brutalize and terrorize those countries and replace those leaders
with types more subservient to US corporate interests.

It’s possible that, despite the similarities, this is different.  But, even
if Assad is the demon our media makes him out to be, adding our Marxist
voices to the barrage denouncing him won’t make much difference.  On the
other hand, if this is a precursor to more US/Israeli sponsored regime
change, our voices can, if nothing else, help expose the pattern.

Lester S.


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> ==**==**==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==**==**==
>
>
> On 5/9/13 1:01 AM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:
>
>> Two Thoughts on Syria.
>>
>> 1. The media coverage of Syria is strikingly similar to coverage of Iraq
>> before our “leaders” invaded that country, similar to Chile before the CIA
>> sponsored the coup and murder of Allende, similar to Panama before we
>> bombed them, ditto Libya, and I could name many more.  In those cases,
>> there was an intense zeroing in on “human rights” violations.  That focus
>> was a precursor to US aggression.  How is this different?
>>
>
> Of course there is a difference. The NY Times and the Washington Post have
> an article almost every single day of the week decrying the "jihadists" in
> Syria. If I were a reporter at either of these newspapers, I surely would
> have been able to make a distinction between Allende, whose main problem
> was failing to rein in the bourgeois press, and Qaddafi or al-Assad who
> would have had a student thrown in prison, tortured, or killed for starting
> a newspaper on campus that called for multiparty elections. In Chile there
> were "human rights violations". In Libya and Syria, there were and are
> human rights violations. We have a big problem in the US left that some
> people can't tell the difference between a scumbag like Bashar al-Assad and
> Salvador Allende, who was one of the great social democratic leaders of the
> past 50 years.
>
>
>  2. Why do we save characterizations like “bloodthirsty” for leaders of
>> other countries, when our leaders have shed more blood than all others
>> combined?
>>
>
> I don't know what else to call somebody who uses Scud missiles against
> working class tenements. Take a look at this and tell me if the term does
> not apply.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=Ua7vVISyyDI
>
>
>
> __**__
> Send list submissions to: 
> Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.edu
> Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.**
> utah.edu/mailman/options/**marxism/schonbrun%40gmail.com
>

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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Louis Proyect]

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==


On 5/9/13 1:01 AM, Lester Schonbrun wrote:

Two Thoughts on Syria.

1. The media coverage of Syria is strikingly similar to coverage of Iraq
before our “leaders” invaded that country, similar to Chile before the CIA
sponsored the coup and murder of Allende, similar to Panama before we
bombed them, ditto Libya, and I could name many more.  In those cases,
there was an intense zeroing in on “human rights” violations.  That focus
was a precursor to US aggression.  How is this different?


Of course there is a difference. The NY Times and the Washington Post 
have an article almost every single day of the week decrying the 
"jihadists" in Syria. If I were a reporter at either of these 
newspapers, I surely would have been able to make a distinction between 
Allende, whose main problem was failing to rein in the bourgeois press, 
and Qaddafi or al-Assad who would have had a student thrown in prison, 
tortured, or killed for starting a newspaper on campus that called for 
multiparty elections. In Chile there were "human rights violations". In 
Libya and Syria, there were and are human rights violations. We have a 
big problem in the US left that some people can't tell the difference 
between a scumbag like Bashar al-Assad and Salvador Allende, who was one 
of the great social democratic leaders of the past 50 years.



2. Why do we save characterizations like “bloodthirsty” for leaders of
other countries, when our leaders have shed more blood than all others
combined?


I don't know what else to call somebody who uses Scud missiles against 
working class tenements. Take a look at this and tell me if the term 
does not apply.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua7vVISyyDI



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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Lester Schonbrun]

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==


Two Thoughts on Syria.

1. The media coverage of Syria is strikingly similar to coverage of Iraq
before our “leaders” invaded that country, similar to Chile before the CIA
sponsored the coup and murder of Allende, similar to Panama before we
bombed them, ditto Libya, and I could name many more.  In those cases,
there was an intense zeroing in on “human rights” violations.  That focus
was a precursor to US aggression.  How is this different?

2. Why do we save characterizations like “bloodthirsty” for leaders of
other countries, when our leaders have shed more blood than all others
combined?



On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Michael Karadjis wrote:

> ==**==**==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==**==**==
>
>
> - Original Message - From: Shane Mage
>
>> >
>> >Assad's Western defenders either don't mention Israel at all when >they
>> list the countries they think are waging "war on Syria" (and >hope no-one
>> notices the omission); or, even worse, they add Israel to >their list
>> despite the evidence (and hope no-one notices).
>>
>> A very odd reaction to the Israeli aggressions! It could be said
>> accurately the Israel is waging war
>>
> directly, the West economically, the Arab dictatorships by proxy as well
> as ideologically. None of which, of course, justifies a smidgen of support
> for Assad!
>
>>
>>
> If you mean actual war on Syria, then exactly, Israel is the only state
> that has actually waged war, with these latest bombings, and in any case
> with the 46 year occupation sovereign Syrian territory in the Golan, it is
> in a state of war.
>
> But the post was not talking about war on Syria, but about the "war on
> Syria," ie, leftist code for the 99% indigenous Syrian uprising (quite
> separate is the issue of the proportion of this uprising that is still
> democratic v the proportion that is reactionary-sectarian). It is code for
> support for Assad's bloodthirsty repression. Pro-Assad leftists usually
> list Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, the US and other imperialist powers. My
> contention is that to the extent to which it is true - ie actual arming of
> the reactionary-sectarian elements - it only concerns those first three
> countries, not the US.
>
> Above all it does not include Israel, which, notwithstanding its actual
> acts of war on Syria as a country and the Syrian people, has a distinct
> preference for the Assad regime over the popular opposition in the war
> going on.
>
> __**__
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> Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.edu
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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Michael Karadjis]

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- Original Message - 
From: Shane Mage

>
>Assad's Western defenders either don't mention Israel at all when 
>they list the countries they think are waging "war on Syria" (and 
>hope no-one notices the omission); or, even worse, they add Israel to 
>their list despite the evidence (and hope no-one notices).


A very odd reaction to the Israeli aggressions! It could be said 
accurately the Israel is waging war
directly, the West economically, the Arab dictatorships by proxy as well 
as ideologically. None of which, of course, justifies a smidgen of 
support for Assad!




If you mean actual war on Syria, then exactly, Israel is the only state 
that has actually waged war, with these latest bombings, and in any case 
with the 46 year occupation sovereign Syrian territory in the Golan, it 
is in a state of war.


But the post was not talking about war on Syria, but about the "war on 
Syria," ie, leftist code for the 99% indigenous Syrian uprising (quite 
separate is the issue of the proportion of this uprising that is still 
democratic v the proportion that is reactionary-sectarian). It is code 
for support for Assad's bloodthirsty repression. Pro-Assad leftists 
usually list Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, the US and other imperialist 
powers. My contention is that to the extent to which it is true - ie 
actual arming of the reactionary-sectarian elements - it only concerns 
those first three countries, not the US.


Above all it does not include Israel, which, notwithstanding its actual 
acts of war on Syria as a country and the Syrian people, has a distinct 
preference for the Assad regime over the popular opposition in the war 
going on. 




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Re: [Marxism] Assad's backers on the left are ignoring reality

[Shane Mage]

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On May 7, 2013, at 3:29 PM, En Passant with John Passant wrote:


Those raising false "anti-imperialist" flags to justify their  
support for a capitalist regime involved in horrifying repression of  
its people are ignoring reality. Israel, the key imperialist asset  
in the region, very clearly sees the Syrian rebellion as a far worse  
alternative to the Assad regime. Assad's Western defenders either  
don't mention Israel at all when they list the countries they think  
are waging "war on Syria" (and hope no-one notices the omission);  
or, even worse, they add Israel to their list despite the evidence  
(and hope no-one notices).


A very odd reaction to the Israeli aggressions!  It could be said  
accurately the Israel is waging war directly, the West economically,  
the Arab dictatorships by proxy as well as ideologically. None of  
which, of course, justifies a smidgen of support for Assad!





Shane Mage

"Thunderbolt steers all things." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64






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