Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > As long as anti-semitism continues to exist I will proclaim that I'm Jewish > and not try to hide the fact that I'm of Jewish descent." Same reason I'll never resign from the CPUSA Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Michael Smith > > The race hatred directed against more recent generations of non-white > > immigrants , especially Muslims, is a much more serious problem than > > contemporary anti-semitism, though manifestations of each should be > > fought equally vigorously. > > Don't quite get the logic of this: a serious problem and a > not-so-serious problem should be 'fought equally vigorously'? "manifestations of each". That is, they don't manifest as frequently as each other, but when they do... Perfectly logical. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2013-06-29, at 7:38 PM, Michael Smith wrote: > > >> The race hatred directed against more recent generations of non-white >> immigrants , especially Muslims, is a much more serious problem than >> contemporary anti-semitism, though manifestations of each should be >> fought equally vigorously. > > Don't quite get the logic of this: a serious problem and a > not-so-serious problem should be 'fought equally vigorously'? > > Of course it's a non-issue for me personally; I can't fight > a thing I never encounter. Oh, I suppose I could deplore it, > among some faraway people of whom I (quite literally) know > nothing, but that doesn't sound much like a fight to me. Point taken. But there are people on this list who are involved in organized anti-racism activities. I'm not, but better to deplore these racist outbreaks to those we know when the opportunity arises than to remain silent. That's true of most issues which concern us. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > The race hatred directed against more recent generations of non-white > immigrants , especially Muslims, is a much more serious problem than > contemporary anti-semitism, though manifestations of each should be > fought equally vigorously. Don't quite get the logic of this: a serious problem and a not-so-serious problem should be 'fought equally vigorously'? Of course it's a non-issue for me personally; I can't fight a thing I never encounter. Oh, I suppose I could deplore it, among some faraway people of whom I (quite literally) know nothing, but that doesn't sound much like a fight to me. -- m...@smithbowen.net http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org Leur sçavoir n’estoyt que besterye, et leur sapience n’estoyt que moufles, abastardisant les bons et nobles esperitz, et corrumpent toute fleur de ieunesse. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2013-06-29, at 1:51 PM, Einde O'Callaghan wrote: > It may be that anti-semitism is now irrelevant in the USA, but unfortunately > it's very much alive and well in Europe (the current Hungarian government > officially propagates anti-Semitism and a fascist anti-Semitic party is a > junior partner in the government). Yes, anti-semitism hasn't disappeared, although it is less virulent and has less of a mass character that it once had, mainly I think because the Jews are no longer predominantly poor working class immigrants with alien features and an alien culture, and also because of the shocking effect of the Judeocide on popular opinion in the West. The current runs deeper in Eastern Europe, even though it is now largely judenfrei, because of the strong historical association of Jews with the region's Communist parties and regimes and because a remaining handful of Jewish capitalists continue to serve as a convenient scapegoat for demagogic politicians. The race hatred directed against more recent generations of non-white immigrants , especially Muslims, is a much more serious problem than contemporary anti-semitism, though manifestations of each should be fought equally vigorously. > This is why so many secular socialists of Jewish descent who are absolutely > non-religious still identify themselves as Jews as a sign of their opposition > to anti-Semitism. > > As on of my secular socialist Jewish friends once said when asked by some > Orthodox Jewish students in Poland why he considered himself Jewish even > though he was an atheist and didn't adhere to any Jewish religious practices: > "As long as anti-semitism continues to exist I will proclaim that I'm Jewish > and not try to hide the fact that I'm of Jewish descent." It doesn't matter to me under what banner people oppose injustice, and I can understand why your friend would have a particular interest in the issue. However, I don't think you have to be Jewish to fight anti-semitism, nor belong to a particular racial or ethnic group in order to effectively fight the forms of racism directed at it. The Marxist parties and groups, for example, were more prescient and resolute in warning about the genocidal anti-semitism of the Nazis than the religious and conservative leaders of the Jewish masses, even discounting the extraordinary pressures on the latter and the ultimately hopeless nature of the struggle. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 28.06.2013 14:34, Marv Gandall wrote: Trotsky, Zinoviev, Radek, and other lesser known Bolsheviks were materialists who rejected religion and had long ceased to identify with the Jewish communities into which they had been born. However, as Bolsheviks they still regarded the Jews as a nation with a common language, culture, and territory in Eastern Europe, and they viewed anti-semitism as an major ruling class weapon in the struggle against the growing mass influence of Marxism. Therein lies the importance of being Jewish in that historical period. It was often a life and death matter, and it universally doomed the entire Yiddish-speaking nation in WWII. Today, Judaism survives as a transnational religion like Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. I've never quite understood understood why Deutscher continued to describe himself as a "non-Jewish Jew" since he did not practice the religion and had no longer had connection to an organized Jewish community. In his defence, he could claim to have come from the shtetl and to speak its distinctive language. The attenuated attachment to the tradition of contemporary secular non-Jewish "Jews" in many countries, however, seems to me to resemble that of the descendants of the Irish, Italian, and other European immigrant families: mainly nostalgic - a fondness for pastrami, klezmer, and other features of the inherited culture - and an uncritical belief in the blood tie of having been born of a Jewish mother and of belonging to a separate Ashkenazi or Sephardic racial or ethnic group. In one respect, though, "Jewish" self-identification is unique, owing much to the traumatic memory of the Judeocide, still too fresh for a generation once removed to ease fears of its recurrence and to fully assimilate even though it is widely dispersed, intermingled, and intermarried. It may be that anti-semitism is now irrelevant in the USA, but unfortunately it's very much alive and well in Europe (the current Hungarian government officially propagates anti-Semitism and a fascist anti-Semitic party is a junior partner in the government). This is why so many secular socialists of Jewish descent who are absolutely non-religious still identify themselves as Jews as a sign of their opposition to anti-Semitism. As on of my secular socialist Jewish friends once said when asked by some Orthodox Jewish students in Poland why he considered himself Jewish even though he was an atheist and didn't adhere to any Jewish religious practices: "As long as anti-semitism continues to exist I will proclaim that I'm Jewish and not try to hide the fact that I'm of Jewish descent." Einde O'Callaghan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2013-06-27, at 7:19 PM, DW wrote: > == > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > == > > > Actually, Kamanev was only half-Jewish. The wrong half, his father, which > makes him not Jewish to Jewish law. Oh well. Of course to the bigots, > Bolshevism was Jewish: ergo Lenin was Jewish, Stalin was Jewish. Generally, > as there were ALL non-Jewish Jews (though Zinoviev had been in the Bund I'm > told), completely and thoroughly Russified, how is "Jewish" at all > important? Trotsky, Zinoviev, Radek, and other lesser known Bolsheviks were materialists who rejected religion and had long ceased to identify with the Jewish communities into which they had been born. However, as Bolsheviks they still regarded the Jews as a nation with a common language, culture, and territory in Eastern Europe, and they viewed anti-semitism as an major ruling class weapon in the struggle against the growing mass influence of Marxism. Therein lies the importance of being Jewish in that historical period. It was often a life and death matter, and it universally doomed the entire Yiddish-speaking nation in WWII. Today, Judaism survives as a transnational religion like Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. I've never quite understood understood why Deutscher continued to describe himself as a "non-Jewish Jew" since he did not practice the religion and had no longer had connection to an organized Jewish community. In his defence, he could claim to have come from the shtetl and to speak its distinctive language. The attenuated attachment to the tradition of contemporary secular non-Jewish "Jews" in many countries, however, seems to me to resemble that of the descendants of the Irish, Italian, and other European immigrant families: mainly nostalgic - a fondness for pastrami, klezmer, and other features of the inherited culture - and an uncritical belief in the blood tie of having been born of a Jewish mother and of belonging to a separate Ashkenazi or Sephardic racial or ethnic group. In one respect, though, "Jewish" self-identification is unique, owing much to the traumatic memory of the Judeocide, still too fresh for a generation once removed to ease fears of its recurrence and to fully assimilate even though it is widely dispersed, intermingled, and intermarried. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Excellent point! I rather think whipped cream would be best. Randy In a message dated 6/27/2013 6:20:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dwalters...@gmail.com writes: Thus, the only arguments is this: is it better to put sugar, sour cream or jam on them? Now, that's worth fighting about! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Jun 27, 2013, at 4:59 PM, randy...@aol.com wrote: The fact is that Zinoviev, Radek, Kamenev, Bukarrin, were indeed Jewish. Randy None of whom were members of the first Council of Peoples' Commissars In a message dated 6/27/2013 11:34:19 A.M. Central Daylight Time, marvga...@gmail.com writes: I haven't bothered to link to the bios of the others to see whether any others had a Jewish background, although I doubt it Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/shmage%40pipeline.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sorry I thought he was Jewish, my bad. The fact is that Jews were indeed in the progressive movement in numbers far out of proportion to their numbers in the total population. Of course, as an oppressed people, it is not too hard to figure out why. It is quite correct to label this charge as primarily coming from the rightwing, and indeed the Stalinists used that prejudice to their own advantage in most of Eastern Europe. Randy In a message dated 6/27/2013 4:05:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, l...@panix.com writes: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 6/27/13 4:59 PM, randy...@aol.com wrote: > > The fact is that Zinoviev, Radek, Kamenev, Bukarrin, were indeed Jewish. > Randy > > Bukharin (not Bukarrin) only looked Jewish. He was a Russian ethnically. It was his sensuous mouth that made him appear Jewish. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/randyjet%40aol.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://forward.com/articles/178906/first-soviet-government-was--jewish-says-putin/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
