Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film, Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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David Walters misunderstands what I'm saying. Nobody is proposing
"socialist realism" nor its cousin, "proletarian culture". But I think he
is being totally unrealistic to think that what people see on TV, the
images they "consume", don't affect their thinking. Does he really think
that all the TV shows that show cops protecting little children, that show
cops pushing around a serial child molester in order to get information on
where he's hidden his victims (thereby justifying police brutality) -- all
that sort of thing - does he really think those images don't affect the
thinking of millions of people?

Why does he think the automobile companies spend untold millions
associating their product with attractive young women or the cigarette
companies spend similar millions associating their product with healthy,
outdoor scenes? Does he think they just love to throw away their money? Or
is it possible that maybe - just maybe - they've actually commissioned
studies that show that these scenes actually work at some level, that they
actually succeed in getting these associations accepted?

Incidentally, even the Pentagon understands this. The book "The
Compassionate Instinct" recounts how the US military found that many US
soldiers resisted killing by intentionally aiming over the heads of the
"enemy" soldiers. So what they did was subject new recruits to scenes of
violence to help overcome that resistance. The authors theorize that the
increase in PTSD among vets since then is a result of the success of these
programs and soldiers doing things that violate what is really in the
"nature" of human beings.

Does he really think that the association of sex with domination doesn't
affect people's attitudes? I used to know a guy - a very nice and
thoughtful worker - who told me that when he was young, he'd watch scenes
on TV of a guy forcing a kiss on a woman who resisted and resisted and
then, suddenly - magically - she yielded and passionately returned the
kiss. This guy told me that for years he thought that that was true - that
if he forced a kiss on a woman, that at some point she'd want to kiss him
back. There was nothing unusual or psychotic about this guy, so there's no
reason to think he was unique.

Or take another example: They've done studies that show that watching porn
tends to increase the propensity towards sexual aggression. And if David
thinks that the idolizing of being rich doesn't affect the thinking, well
then, I think he's very wrong. Incidentally, the British left journalist
Monbiot wrote a very interesting piece on celebrity culture. It's directly
related to what we're discussing here. This is the link:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/20/celebrity-corporate-machine-fame-big-business-donald-trump-kim-kardashian

It is simply idealistic - non-Marxist - to think that what we see on TV
doesn't affect our consciousness.

As for rap music: David completely misses my point. That point was exactly
that rap originated as a form of expression of the experiences of life in
the inner cities and was then transformed by Hollywood.

My own personal belief is that all political movements are in a sense an
expression of the inner-most feelings and experiences of people and that
was true for the black revolt of the 1960s and '70s. When that revolt
declined and was crushed, then that self-expression found a different form,
one less overtly "political". That was what rap music originally was, as in
the example of Grand Master Flash. But even that was too dangerous so it
was taken over by Hollywood. I don't know about David, but I used to listen
to what my kids were listening to back in the late '70s and '80s when we
rode in the car together. I found it so distasteful that I'd make them turn
it off. If it were something that was overtly racist, we'd object. Why not
to music that's overtly sexist? What - we don't think that affects people's
thinking? Let's get real here.

John Reimann

-- 
"No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
Assata Shakur
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Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film, Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It

[Jeffrey Masko via Marxism]

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Well, my students come into my classes as "the masses" with some films are
mere entertainment and leave knowing that even mere entertainment has the
earmarks of whence it came. Myself, I don't fancy notions of high art, but
find any cultural development open to a radical critical critique and argue
that this types of critiques need to move from Cinema Journal to the
language of scholars outside the field. No reason we can't jettison jargon
and still argue that films and conventions, as common sense, do help build
ideological formations at some point in the process.

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:35 PM, DW via Marxism  wrote:

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>
> John R., truly, I feel sad you that you can counter-culturally isolate
> yourself from what the masses of people see at the movies. "Propaganda"?
> Prove it. Tell the members of the Writers Guild they as saps for
> capitalism. Tell them that they are not artists but just US gov't social
> sycophants. What a fucked up POV. EVERYTHING under capitalism bears the
> stamp of class society. There are no exceptions. And so what? I went to see
> The Black Panther fully aware that this wasn't an artistic exercise with
> great social implications. I went to be entertained. We can argue about the
> merit of what is entertaining but I, nor my son, came out of this film with
> a renewed or new sense of social patriotism and God bless American
> capitalism. Not even a *little*. I doubt anyone was. We were all
> entertained, mission accomplished.
>
> Rap music *exists* because of capitalism, John. It  was dialectically
> created, as were Blues and Jazz as a reaction to oppression...or, more for
> rap, alienation. From the *beginning* it contained major elements of
> mysogony and anti-gay bigotry. This was true from the first tunes coming
> out of the Bronx neighborhood it originated it. As such, Rap contains and
> continues to contain all forms of contradictions. Such is culture under
> capitalism. Looking for pure anti-capitalist culture misses the entire
> point of literary and artistic criticism.
>
> I stand by what I said and reject all PC and Socialist Realist horse shit.
>
> David
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>



-- 

J.A. Masko
College of Communications
Penn State University
State College, Pa 16801

  "The challenge of modernity is to live without illusions and without
becoming disillusioned."

   Antonio Gramsci.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film, Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It

[Jeffrey Masko via Marxism]

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Genre films and film genre participate in the dialectic exchange/dialogue
where the apparatus of film making (as production) invites the audience (as
makers of meaning) to a genre's conventions at a specific historical
moment, wherein the audience can reject or accept in part or whole, the
message. Thus the ideological shapes that capital take in industrialized
societies can be demystified by comparing the formal aspects of the filmic
artifact to the context of conventions of both the film product and its
critique. This is a reduced account of how ideology work through mass media
(in this case, cinematic media) and why it is the richest vein of
ideological formation available. This alone gives mass marketed cinematic
media a top priority in leftist critique for the future, imo, as someone in
the field.

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:50 PM, John Reimann via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> David Walters accuses Andy of "taking [Black Panther] far too seriously."
> If He further comments: "The 'social significance' of this I have to assume
> is irrelevant."  I have not seen that film nor do I intend to see it. In
> fact, I don't even know very much about its plot. But I do think we should
> take Hollywood movies seriously in the political sense.
>
> We should not see propaganda as being purely what comes from the
> communications officer of the Pentagon or the editors of the Wall St.
> Journal or the New York Times. No more than we should think that political
> views and cultural orientation are two totally separate things. I strongly
> believe that what comes out of Hollywood is one of the most powerful
> propaganda tools for capitalism that the US capitalist class has. Same for
> the songs that are on the radio. I well remember, for example, when rap
> music first hit the big time. One of the first big popular rap groups was
> Grand Master Flash, and I remember their hit "New York, New York". Back in
> those days, my neighborhood was known as "Funktown" after one of Oakland's
> more prominent drug gangs. I can still hear that rap of Grand Master Flash
> in my memory as it was played out on the streets outside my window over and
> over. And what a powerful condemnation of capitalism it was, even though it
> didn't propose a fight to oppose it.
>
> So, what happened? In a very short time that sort of rap was replaced on
> the radio by raps about a woman's "booty" or about getting rich.
>
> All of this has a massive effect on the consciousness - in some ways even
> more so than does the formal political propaganda. And that includes what
> comes out of Hollywood.
>
> John Reimann
>
>
>
> --
> "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
> Assata Shakur
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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> options/marxism/mediacrusher%40gmail.com
>



-- 

J.A. Masko
College of Communications
Penn State University
State College, Pa 16801

  "The challenge of modernity is to live without illusions and without
becoming disillusioned."

   Antonio Gramsci.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film, Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It

[DW via Marxism]

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John R., truly, I feel sad you that you can counter-culturally isolate
yourself from what the masses of people see at the movies. "Propaganda"?
Prove it. Tell the members of the Writers Guild they as saps for
capitalism. Tell them that they are not artists but just US gov't social
sycophants. What a fucked up POV. EVERYTHING under capitalism bears the
stamp of class society. There are no exceptions. And so what? I went to see
The Black Panther fully aware that this wasn't an artistic exercise with
great social implications. I went to be entertained. We can argue about the
merit of what is entertaining but I, nor my son, came out of this film with
a renewed or new sense of social patriotism and God bless American
capitalism. Not even a *little*. I doubt anyone was. We were all
entertained, mission accomplished.

Rap music *exists* because of capitalism, John. It  was dialectically
created, as were Blues and Jazz as a reaction to oppression...or, more for
rap, alienation. From the *beginning* it contained major elements of
mysogony and anti-gay bigotry. This was true from the first tunes coming
out of the Bronx neighborhood it originated it. As such, Rap contains and
continues to contain all forms of contradictions. Such is culture under
capitalism. Looking for pure anti-capitalist culture misses the entire
point of literary and artistic criticism.

I stand by what I said and reject all PC and Socialist Realist horse shit.

David
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Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film, Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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David Walters accuses Andy of "taking [Black Panther] far too seriously."
If He further comments: "The 'social significance' of this I have to assume
is irrelevant."  I have not seen that film nor do I intend to see it. In
fact, I don't even know very much about its plot. But I do think we should
take Hollywood movies seriously in the political sense.

We should not see propaganda as being purely what comes from the
communications officer of the Pentagon or the editors of the Wall St.
Journal or the New York Times. No more than we should think that political
views and cultural orientation are two totally separate things. I strongly
believe that what comes out of Hollywood is one of the most powerful
propaganda tools for capitalism that the US capitalist class has. Same for
the songs that are on the radio. I well remember, for example, when rap
music first hit the big time. One of the first big popular rap groups was
Grand Master Flash, and I remember their hit "New York, New York". Back in
those days, my neighborhood was known as "Funktown" after one of Oakland's
more prominent drug gangs. I can still hear that rap of Grand Master Flash
in my memory as it was played out on the streets outside my window over and
over. And what a powerful condemnation of capitalism it was, even though it
didn't propose a fight to oppose it.

So, what happened? In a very short time that sort of rap was replaced on
the radio by raps about a woman's "booty" or about getting rich.

All of this has a massive effect on the consciousness - in some ways even
more so than does the formal political propaganda. And that includes what
comes out of Hollywood.

John Reimann



-- 
"No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
Assata Shakur
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
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[Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film, Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Just trying to raise awareness here - and understand in the context of

this being a large capitalist corporation that needs to be expropriated and

kingdoms and militarism promotion ended - and the description "superb"

not shared by all, in its lacking for the LGBT fans.


Marvel and Disney corporate heads once again betrayed their promises  to include

same sex sex gender characters.  There was created in the original script that 
one of the

major characters be a Lesbian.  After the art and writing were done, Marvel 
heads withdrew

this and ordered the character to be straight.


So while the film has important long overdue "firsts" that raises visibility 
and some good

progressive themes, there has been left disappointment with Marvel not keeping 
their promise

to be inclusive for Black same sex gender fans and other viewers.


When I was a kid, there were only "official" straight role models, including in 
comics, even

though I could "interpret" that Wonder Woman and those male super heroes in 
tights and

colorful costumes living alone with their same sex younger partners, were not 
the patriarchal

hetero nuclear family promoted model.




I grew up in the 1990s and so the span of Marvel Comics that were part of
my childhood, as well as the several cartoons, were pretty different than
what we have been getting since the first IRON MAN from Marvel Studios.
Marvel was always extremely high on both the melodrama and the social
justice parables, sometimes to the extent of being unbearable. My frame of
reference for the canon therefore is including that stuff. Indeed since
Marvel Studios emerged, it has been pretty obvious that Marvel and DC  have
effectively switched roles, now it is DC-based films like the Batman
pictures and Superman with all the pathos while Marvel is pretty bubblegum
in comparison.

Speaking specifically about the Panther titles, Ta-Nehisi Coates has been
writing it for the past several years and the result have been interesting.

--
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart



Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 06:41:13 -0800
From: DW 
To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition

Subject: Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film,
Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It
Message-ID:

Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film, Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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I grew up in the 1990s and so the span of Marvel Comics that were part of
my childhood, as well as the several cartoons, were pretty different than
what we have been getting since the first IRON MAN from Marvel Studios.
Marvel was always extremely high on both the melodrama and the social
justice parables, sometimes to the extent of being unbearable. My frame of
reference for the canon therefore is including that stuff. Indeed since
Marvel Studios emerged, it has been pretty obvious that Marvel and DC  have
effectively switched roles, now it is DC-based films like the Batman
pictures and Superman with all the pathos while Marvel is pretty bubblegum
in comparison.

Speaking specifically about the Panther titles, Ta-Nehisi Coates has been
writing it for the past several years and the result have been interesting.

-- 
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart



Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 06:41:13 -0800
From: DW 
To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition

Subject: Re: [Marxism] Black Panther: Afrofuturism Gets a Superb Film,
Marvel Grows Up and I Don?t Know How to Review It
Message-ID: