Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jan 23, 2019, at 4:42 PM, A.R. G  wrote:
> 
> I can't believe you made me re-read it. :(

I think the fundamental misunderstanding is that Amith (and maybe others) 
thinks ARR is trying to show that Ames and Taibbi (and maybe CTH) are somehow 
deliberate agents of a neofascist / red-brown convergence, as opposed to being 
inexcusably negligent useful idiots who have taken actions that have helped 
enable it. I don’t think the latter can seriously be doubted.
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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I don't want to further rehash the debate about Unz because I think we've
already gone full-circle. But ARR's article is not about Unz. He is taking
aim at Chapo Trap House, Ames, and Taibbi. Even assuming the Unz business
is part of a National Bolshevik revival that doesn't give ARR the carte
blanche to write whatever stupid shit he wants.

Re: the parts of the article that MM has posted:

1) The NPR piece by Taibbi that is supposedly a defense/promotion starts by
referring to Liminov as a "neo-fascist" and focuses on his bizarre personal
exploits and failures. Perhaps that's not he same as calling for him to be
punched in the face, but for ARR to dig it up like it is proof of an
endorsement of Liminov's politics, let alone five years after the fact, is
totally dishonest.

2) Look at the weasel words: "The eXile’s editors helped frame West-East
conflict in ways that deflected criticism of Putin back to the US and
reflected Russia’s propaganda line, *which brought left and right together
in a geopolitical struggle with National Bolshevik overtones*." This is
classic bullshittery from ARR. He doesn't focus on whatever actual ties
there might have been. Taking the same position as an organization that he
admits fuses left-wing positions with right-wing ones is enough for him to
find Nazism.

3) Based on a closer reading of his article (something I was hesitant to do
given how bad it is), the line appears to go: Chapo Trap House having Matt
Taibbi as a guest; Matt Taibbi working at the eXile, apparently a bizarre
punk zine for English-speaking expats, with Mark Ames; Mark Ames recruiting
Liminov to write a column in their edgy magazine; Liminov adopting National
Bolshevism and the ideas of Aleksandr Dugin; Dugin and the National
Bolsheviks channeling the Russian ultranationalists and embracing US Nazis
like Richard Spencer. Richard Spencer also likes the sarcasm of Chapo Trap
House because his community is also sarcastic.

There is literally nothing of significance implicating Chapo Trap House in
any of this business. The mere fact that he would even include them in the
article for having Taibbi speak on their podcast is discrediting enough,
but ARR had to do it because he is trying to go after internet trolling and
the "dirtbag left". So, he just concocted this bullshit. It's also worth
noting that whatever edgelordiness that the eXile might have had, all of
Taibbi's US-directed work has been serious journalism published in The
Rolling Stone. There is no reason to think of him as a troll.

4) Taibbi and Ames' fascination with Liminov doesn't seem to be any
different from the general media fascination (and confusion) with him over
his personal exploits and political prospects as potential challenger to
Putin:

a)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/12/eduard-limonov-interview-putin-nightmare
b)
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/05/21/weird-and-instructive-story-eduard-limonov/

Liminov is obviously a bizarre figure with bad politics. But he was/is also
a prominent one in Russian politics. ARR went back nearly eleven years to a
catch-all publication that mixed satire and anger with pranks and tried to
indict two reporters -- and a wholly unrelated podcast -- because Liminov
The NazBol once wrote a column there and because of the foreign policy
positions they took. There is no indication that Dugin or the far right had
any involvement, and judging by the article by Ames that ARR cites, it
sounds like Ames had no personal connection to Dugin, having to ask others
what he allegedly thought and so forth. There is also no indication that
Taibbi or Ames ever agreed with Liminov's approach of coordinating with
ultranationalists (or even understood what it was), and despite how long
this article was, the closest thing ARR could drum up was that they
defended Russian foreign policy.

I can't believe you made me re-read it. :(

Amith R. Gupta


On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 3:12 PM MM  wrote:

> On Jan 23, 2019, at 2:43 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> ARR's article, which isn't about any of these people, takes the association
> game to a new extreme.
>
>
> I’m starting to think ARR didn’t actually read the article, at least not
> very closely. I’m going to paste a few paragraphs and then a couple of
> links:
>
> With the fall of the Soviet Union, Limonov joined fellow National
> Bolshevik, Aleksandr Dugin, to promote that dream of a Eurasian “large
> space” premised on fascist geopolitics and based in the Kremlin. Committed
> to the total destruction of what they perceive as the liberal and weak
> West, the National Bolsheviks asserted the spiritual greatness of
> 

Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

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> On Jan 23, 2019, at 3:12 PM, MM  wrote:
> 
> I’m starting to think ARR didn’t actually read the article, at least not very 
> closely. 

Obviously I meant ARG.
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jan 23, 2019, at 2:43 PM, A.R. G via Marxism  
> wrote:
> 
> ARR's article, which isn't about any of these people, takes the association
> game to a new extreme.


I’m starting to think ARR didn’t actually read the article, at least not very 
closely. I’m going to paste a few paragraphs and then a couple of links:

With the fall of the Soviet Union, Limonov joined fellow National Bolshevik, 
Aleksandr Dugin, to promote that dream of a Eurasian “large space” premised on 
fascist geopolitics and based in the Kremlin. Committed to the total 
destruction of what they perceive as the liberal and weak West, the National 
Bolsheviks asserted the spiritual greatness of Traditionalism found in the 
“Heartland” of the Asian continent.

While Dugin became the philosopher of this fascist ideology, influencing 
everyone from the Communist Party to the so-called Liberal Democratic Party of 
Russia to the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, Limonov developed his 
role as a leading propagandist of the Russian far right. According to professor 
Markus Meili 
,
 Limonov “decisively influenced the emergence and growth of the Russian 
skinhead movement in the mid-1990s.” Despite this, firing on Sarajevo with war 
criminal Radovan Karadžić 
,
 and calling for a “Serbian solution” to challenges against Russia, he was 
indulged as a misunderstood performance artist.

… 
Politically, The eXile came to follow now-familiar rules: criticize Putin, but 
reserve the most obscene tirades for Western media hypocrisy. They would level 
criticisms against Putin on tough issues, such as his stony response 
 to the murder of journalist Anna 
Politkovskaya, but turn those articles back against the US. Ames seemed to 
oppose Putin and the oligarchs, but downplay the threat of fascists like Dugin, 
while publishing his comrade-in-arms, Limonov. For this reason, scholar and 
author of Russian Fascism 
,
 Stephen Shenfield, argued that “ways should be found to put the eXile out of 
business” (according to Ames’s account 
).

…
Limonov rejoined Putin’s side after years on the opposition, enraptured by the 
convergence of ultranationalism and Soviet nostalgia. Limonov’s former close 
comrade, Dugin, exhorted pro-Russian forces in Ukraine to “Kill! Kill! Kill 
Ukrainians! 
”
 and his close associates  took 
leading roles in the Kremlin-supported “civil war.” Limonov and Dugin 

 appeared on Russian TV together, a symbol of the power of the invasion of 
Ukraine to reunite old comrades.


ARR subsequently links to:

This 2013 tweet from Ames: http://archive.li/Cc9ca

This 2014 white-washing piece for NPR by Taibbi: 
https://www.npr.org/2014/10/21/356988666/who-is-limonov-not-even-his-biographer-really-knows

What Ames and Taibbi are doing here is pretty far from simply failing to 
disassociate themselves from an odious figure.

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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

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On 1/23/19 2:43 PM, A.R. G wrote:


I'm disagreeing that the blame lies on leftists for his publishing 
decisions, as though they have control over what he says or does, and 
separately disagreeing that it is an important matter because Unz 
himself (like LaRouche) is unimportant.


Amith, I am getting frustrated with trying to get my point across. I am 
not "blaming leftists" for what Unz publishes. I am telling leftists to 
take their name down as columnists. They can't do much about him 
aggregating their work but they are within their rights to demand that 
their names being taken down as columnists. I wrote to every leftist 
columnist whose email address I could track down asking them why they 
allow their names to be so listed.


Michael Hudson wrote back saying he'd think about it. He's still there. 
Tom Engelhardt never responded even after 3 queries. C.J. Hopkins never 
responded but got into a tiff with Jeff St. Clair and Joshua Frank after 
he was mentioned by Tony DiMaggio as a Putin apologist. This led to him 
getting the boot. It was only Finkelstein who insisted on his right to 
be listed there, telling me that it was no worse than having your byline 
in the NY Times. That he can't tell the difference between a scary, 
Hitlerite website and the NY Times tells me that he has lost it.


Here's what I have written about UNZ Review in the past:

https://louisproyect.org/2017/09/23/the-one-degree-of-separation-between-valerie-plame-and-white-supremacy/

https://louisproyect.org/2018/09/04/meet-the-leftwing-columnists-writing-for-a-neo-nazi-website/
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

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"I don't understand why you don't understand.  Leftists should not
be associated with neo-Nazi websites in any capacity."

I'm not disagreeing with that. Unz is politically poisonous.

I'm disagreeing that the blame lies on leftists for his publishing
decisions, as though they have control over what he says or does, and
separately disagreeing that it is an important matter because Unz himself
(like LaRouche) is unimportant.

I still recall the attempt by David Duke to "endorse" Charles Barron's
Senate run. It caught Barron blind-sided and suddenly Barron had to
explain, bizarrely, that he is not, in fact, a friend of Nazis. One would
think that would be clear given that Barron is black and a militant
leftist, and one might also wonder why the news cameras were paying any
attention to David Duke in the first place given his complete and utter
insignificance, but lo and behold, the Barron campaign was torched using
David Duke's kiss of death.

That Finkelstein's works get published by Unz is gross, but hardly grosser
than the fact that Finkelstein's work (and Chomsky's before him) also had
regular play on less prominent Nazi websites including Holocaust Denial
publications. What you are saying makes it seem like it's their burden to
somehow go out of their way and trawl through the shadiest corners of the
internet to get those writings removed because right-wing extremists choose
to appropriate them for their own purposes, as though they ever sent in
their endorsement in the first place. I don't agree with that.

ARR's article, which isn't about any of these people, takes the association
game to a new extreme.
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

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On 1/23/19 2:22 PM, A.R. G wrote:


You keep calling them "columnists". The implication of this is that he 
is actually collaborating with Unz, like a staffer.


I don't understand why you don't understand. Leftists should not be 
associated with neo-Nazi websites in any capacity. I don't care if he 
doesn't write anything for them. The names Norman Finkelstein and 
Michael Hudson give Unz left cover. This is an utter disgrace. One of 
these days, the people Unz is trying to crystallize into a fascist 
movement will be a mortal danger just like Golden Dawn or AfD. We don't 
need to give him a head-start.

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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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"I strongly object to excusing Norman Finkelstein in this fashion. By
allowing his name to be listed as a columnist, he legitimizes a neo-Nazi
website."

You keep calling them "columnists". The implication of this is that he is
actually collaborating with Unz, like a staffer. If what Finkelstein told
me is true, then that is not the case and would imply that it is likely not
the case for the others. Unz is unilaterally deciding what he wants to
republish. If they aren't actively collaborating with him then it isn't
even clear that Unz would remove their names or materials if asked. My own
writings have appeared in random corners of the internet, including places
I don't want them. I have no control over that. And it doesn't make me a
"columnist". I'd point out -- so have Marx's, Chomsky's, Lenin's, etc.

It is an issue that right wing groups are trying to sanitize their messages
by mixing them with left rhetoric, but it is not nearly as big of an issue
as you're implying for the primary reason that these groups and individuals
are mostly irrelevant. LaRouche and his weirdos have been around for
decades. They are an insignificant cult and I would pay them the same
attention I pay to the Hare Krishnas and Scientology. On the other hand,
falsely implying the existence of Nazi collaboration among left groups over
trivial points of contact -- none of which appear to involve actually
endorsing or defending fascist ideology, with the possible exception of
Johnstone -- sounds like a serious error of judgment. And when ARR does it,
it is straightforwardly done in bad faith.

Amith R. Gupta
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/23/19 1:15 PM, A.R. G wrote:


I spoke to Finkelstein about Unz after the last time it came up. He does 
not publish for Unz; Unz reblogs things he has written elsewhere, 
including on his own website. 


I strongly object to excusing Norman Finkelstein in this fashion. By 
allowing his name to be listed as a columnist, he legitimizes a neo-Nazi 
website.


UNZ Review is basically an upscale version of the Daily Stormer with one 
article after another denying that Hitler was guilty of genocide, 
arguing that Blacks are genetically inferior, and other neo-Nazi trash.


This is from Ron Unz, the editor and a Jew himself:

	After Hitler had been named Chancellor in 1933, outraged Jews worldwide 
had quickly launched an economic boycott, hoping to bring Germany to its 
knees, with London’s Daily Express famously running the banner headline 
“Judea Declares War on Germany.”


http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-jews-and-nazis/

It is not just him. Michael Hudson is one of the best known economists 
on the left who apparently does not mind lending his name to a neo-Nazi 
website as a columnist.


Amith, you really need to think this stuff through. There is 
considerable overlap between fascists and the part of the left totally 
committed to supporting "the axis of resistance". Ray McGovern, the 
ex-CIA agent who converted to the anti-imperialist cause, is an 
occasional guest on Larouche TV programs. So is Nomi Prins, the 
well-known and respected former Goldman-Sachs economist who became a 
critic of Wall Street.


One of the occasional contributors to Consortium News is a former member 
of the Larouche organization who writes articles there that are 
indistinguishable from those that appear in the Larouche press.


As I pointed out in a series of articles on Larouche, this group is 
consciously trying to build ties with the left and became a worrisome 
presence in Occupy Wall Street. It might not have the kind of following 
it once had but it is taken very seriously in Russia. Recently, I 
reviewed Anton Shekhovtsov's book on Russia and the far right for 
Counterpunch. On his blog, he has an article about the ties between this 
fascist cult and Russia:


	The relations between LaRouche and Glazyev continued in the 2000s, the 
Putin era. In particular, LaRouche and Helga Zepp-LaRouche took part in 
the Duma hearing “On measures to ensure the development of the Russian 
economy under conditions of a destabilisation of the world financial 
system” held in June 2001 at the initiative of Glazyev who was then 
chairman of the Duma Committee on Economic Policy and Entrepreneurship.


http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2015/06/sergey-glazyev-and-american-fascist-cult.html

Meanwhile, Diana Johnstone advised CounterPunch readers that Marine Le 
Pen is on the left while Boris Kagarlitsky writes a piece there 
endorsing Donald Trump. For such people, Russia plays the same role that 
it played for the Communist Party in the 1930s, a beacon of hope. You 
might excuse the CP back then for not having the full picture of life 
inside the USSR but who isn't aware of the kind of mafia state Russia is 
today? Only those who are drunk on anti-imperialist rhetoric.


Probably the advance guard of this National Bolshevism revival is RT.com 
itself that paid Max Blumenthal's expenses for its bash in Moscow and 
likely continues to pay him under the table for his efforts. It provided 
air time to Richard Spencer before his reputation became established as 
a neo-Nazi.


All of this is developing within the context of Russia gaining the 
reputation of being a vanguard fighter against imperialism. In terms of 
popular culture, Oliver Stone's fawning documentary about Putin was seen 
on Showtime. In one unforgettable segment, Stone got a big kick out of 
Putin stating that he would punch out any gay sailor who came on to him 
in a submarine shower room. On top of that you get Stephen F. Cohen 
giving weekly interviews saluting Putin on WABC radio, which along with 
Fox News is pulling American society to the far right.










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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

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Added bonus, now this "anarchist" freakshow is re-blogging propaganda from
the Anti-Defamation League, the Zionist organization that organizes Israeli
government trainings for US cops and leads the pack to dehumanize
Palestinians: https://twitter.com/areidross/status/1088114649164201984 .

The map he finds so fascinating doesn't appear to have any explicitly
anti-Palestine materials but the mere fact that he is signal boosting them
as though they are a legitimate civil rights organization (particularly
given his own conspiratorial "everyone-is-in-cahoots-burn-everything"
attitude under which he is willing to tar people for much less) should
indicate that he is a fraud. It's also a map that indicates almost the
exact opposite of what it proclaims to document, namely some sort of rise
in anti-Semitism. Most of the "incidents" listed are teenagers making Jew
jokes and idiots from hate groups putting up flyers on bulletin boards.
Hardly a reason to beef up security at the beer hall.

As far as Richard Spencer goes, honestly, who cares? RS praised Chapo Trap
House for being into internet trolling culture. There is no political
similarity. Even if he were to say something like "I like Chapo Trap House
and agree with everything they say," that would be an obvious
unidirectional endorsement and has the significance of David Duke endorsing
Occupy Wall Street. Those people have their own political agenda and
Leftists do not have any control over it. Neither Chapo Trap House nor the
Chapo community has anything but scorn for the right-wing. They are almost
entirely behind Bernie Sanders and the DSA.

I spoke to Finkelstein about Unz after the last time it came up. He does
not publish for Unz; Unz reblogs things he has written elsewhere, including
on his own website. Unz is also apparently a zillionaire while Finkelstein
was fired from his job for defending Palestine. If the $$$ payment rumor is
true, I think it is obvious why Finkelstein might have taken the money and
it again hardly shows any sort of political likemindedness. The rest of
these people have gone on various programs or endorsed stupid ideas. That
is the normal course of the Left and hardly indicates what ARR is implying,
namely some sort of fascist tendency.

Amith R. Gupta
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

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On 1/21/19 7:28 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:

1) Despite the title, there is no evidence in his piece or anywhere else
that National Bolshevism is in any way a meaningful trend, let alone "on
the rise" in the United States. 


It depends on what you mean by "on the rise". There is certainly no 
danger of them filling Madison Square Garden like the German-American 
Bund did in 1939 but there certainly is a problem when Richard Spencer 
describes himself as a fan of both eXile and Chapo Trap House. Or when 
Norman Finkelstein is listed as a columnist for a neo-Nazi website like 
UNZ.com. And when I asked him why he would lend his name to such a 
cesspool, he told me that he would write for anybody, even the NY Times. 
(Later I found out that he was paid $40,000 by Ron Unz.)


UNZ.com is a consciously Strasserite website. Not only is Finkelstein a 
columnist, so are Michael Hudson and Tom Engelhardt. When I asked Hudson 
why he would lend his name to such a website, he said he'd think about 
it. He is still there. As for Engelhardt, he doesn't even answer 
repeated queries about this.


We had a big to-do with a character named C.J. Hopkins who got the boot 
from Counterpunch for writing on UNZ.com, blaming me for this when I had 
nothing to do with it. In fact, there are a host of people who have been 
purged from Counterpunch who could be described as National Bolsheviks, 
starting with Diana Johnstone who has described Marine Le Pen as on the 
left. Then there is Boris Kagarlitsky who still writes for Counterpunch 
from time to time who attended a conference organized by the Austrian 
neo-Nazis a few years ago.


This is not to speak of Max Blumenthal's bromance with Tucker Carlson 
who has recently gained attention for calling out the capitalist system 
as unfair. Strasserism? Maybe not full-blown but it *is* a growing 
phenomenon and has been for a decade at least.



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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

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I'm surprised this piece has caused any serious debate given how
objectively awful it is.

For one, here's ARR's tweet claiming Rania Khalek is an anti-Semitic Nazi
-- not an Assadist, not a Stalinist, but an anti-Semite -- based on
literally nothing: https://twitter.com/areidross/status/1080952181048598529
^^^Rania Khalek transparently condemns the fact that corporations control
media, this "leftist" writer decides to suggest she's baiting Jews. *If
there was any implication that ARR was writing these
six-degrees-of-anti-Semitism hit-pieces in good faith and attempting to
genuinely fend off some sort of right-wing takeover of the Left, tweets
like that should make it clear that his intentions are bad and that they
are exactly as his detractors initially suggested: that he is falsely
labeling left-wing writers as Nazis over pre-existing disputes with them on
matters that are widely debated on the Left, including Syria. *His
criticisms are not honest or made in good faith, and he is in fact little
more than a troll and a fraudster. If the United States had functioning
defamation laws, Khalek would be able to sue him for damages, and rightly
so. This is a person who has consistently published fraudulent attacks on
others but refuses to go away even after being exposed as the virus that he
is.

That he has been relegated to Medium.com -- which publishes literally
anyone -- and has no other place to publish his vile attacks on the Left is
a good sign.

As far as the piece that is the subject of this topic, let's be clear about
a few points:

1) Despite the title, there is no evidence in his piece or anywhere else
that National Bolshevism is in any way a meaningful trend, let alone "on
the rise" in the United States. The only person in US politics that
promotes this bizarre ideology is Matthew Heimbach, the imbecile who
recently made alt-news headlines when got kicked out of his Neo-Nazi
cosplaying drinking club for losers, the National Socialism Movement, for
being a Strasserite. Neither he nor the group that expelled him have any
meaningful influence, followers, political support, etc. They are
completely irrelevant. There is nothing in ARR's garbage article that
suggests otherwise, and the only way to imply otherwise is to think that
Chapo Trap House, Mark Ames, and Matt Taibbi are somehow complicit in
actually promoting National Bolshevism. They are not and there is nothing
in his piece that suggests they are, and the mere fact that ARR's putrid
propaganda would suggest otherwise is a reason he should be ignored if not
publicly flagellated.

2) Despite what you would gather from this article, there does not appear
to be *any* indication that "the eXile" is a Neo-Nazi/far-right/fascist
publication. All of the content is "edgy" satirical nonsense. Furthermore,
the individuals that ARR pegs as Nazis appear to have secondary and
tertiary connections to the magazine. Whatever ARR is trying to drive at he
has basically no evidence whatsoever.

3) The evidence of some connection between eXile and a resurgence of
"National Bolshevism" in the US is even weaker. He goes at Taibbi for
allegedly taking a Russia-soft stance on Syria, Mark Ames and some other
guy for similar reasons, and then has the gall to suggest that there is a
neo-fascist influence on Chapo Trap House on the grounds that the latter is
also filled with sarcastic humor (which is the extent to which there is any
commonality with the alt-right).

Like with his tweet about Rania Khalek, ARR tries to find Nazis virtually
everywhere. He makes no real effort to study the far right, does not
provide any serious evidence for his conspiracy theories, and primarily
functions to torch the Left over alleged stylistic and rhetorical
similarities he finds with Nazis. He may as well criticize the Left for
hosting rallies because that's what Nazis do. Why would anyone find
anything of significance in his writings? The guy is an utter moron and a
reactionary.

I should add he got his degree from what is apparently a diploma mill,
which is hardly surprising given how bad his writing is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Graduate_School

Amith R. Gupta


On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 3:22 PM MM via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> > On Jan 21, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Nick Fredman 
> wrote:
> >
> > What evidence is there that CTH has “cultivated” a 

Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of ?National Bolshevism? in the U.S.

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/21/19 3:34 PM, Andrew Stewart wrote:
This is the same old guilt-by-association brand of social network 
analysis that ARR thrives off. He's pulled this shit with people from 
Black Agenda Report that are in the peace movement also. It's not too 
sensational to learn that someone like Richard Spencer enjoyed the eXile 
once you study the alt-right discourse and style for a while. Basically 
the alt-right combines postmodern irony, South Park taboo comedy, and 
fascist ideology. eXile was apparently loaded to the brim with the first 
two while trying to lampoon the pillage of the Russian state under 
Yeltsin. Spencer was in Russia and read an English-language periodical 
catered to English-language expats. That's a pretty wide audience 
demographic, particularly because the Russian language alphabet is 
Cyrillic as opposed to Latin. Ames and Taibbi were carrying on like 
drug-addled teenagers in the midst of a Wall Street feeding frenzy. 
Spencer was getting into fascist politics and networking with the 
Alexander Dugin folks. This is basically McCarthyism, sliming people for 
the magazines they either read, subscribe to, or edit.


McCarthyism involved firing people from their jobs and even being put in 
prison for years like Junius Scales, the only CPer convicted for 
violating the Smith Act.


I have heard this repeatedly for the past 7 years like when Rania Khalek 
got booted from Electronic Intifada for the crap she had been writing 
about Syria. When people complain about what someone is writing, that is 
not the same thing as the FBI coming to your house and pressuring you to 
name names.


I deal with this stuff here:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/20/syria-and-neo-mccarthyism/
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of ?National Bolshevism? in the U.S.

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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This is the same old guilt-by-association brand of social network analysis
that ARR thrives off. He's pulled this shit with people from Black Agenda
Report that are in the peace movement also. It's not too sensational to
learn that someone like Richard Spencer enjoyed the eXile once you study
the alt-right discourse and style for a while. Basically the alt-right
combines postmodern irony, South Park taboo comedy, and fascist ideology.
eXile was apparently loaded to the brim with the first two while trying to
lampoon the pillage of the Russian state under Yeltsin. Spencer was in
Russia and read an English-language periodical catered to English-language
expats. That's a pretty wide audience demographic, particularly because the
Russian language alphabet is Cyrillic as opposed to Latin. Ames and Taibbi
were carrying on like drug-addled teenagers in the midst of a Wall Street
feeding frenzy. Spencer was getting into fascist politics and networking
with the Alexander Dugin folks. This is basically McCarthyism, sliming
people for the magazines they either read, subscribe to, or edit.

-- 
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 12:16:24 -0500
From: "A.R. G" 
To: Louis Proyect , Activists and scholars in Marxist
tradition   
Subject: Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and
the rise of ?National Bolshevism? in the U.S.
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

This is gross. ARR is claiming Matt Taibbi and Chapo Trap House are part of
a Nazi infiltration? Give me a break. Last week he claimed Rania Khalek was
an anti-Semite for tweeting that corporations have too much power over the
media. This guy is an absolute crackpot.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 9:52 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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>
> By Alexander Reid Ross
>
>
>
https://medium.com/@areidross/from-exile-to-dirtbag-edgelord-geopolitics-and-the-rise-of-national-bolshevism-in-the-u-s-84822021b0e8
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jan 21, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Nick Fredman  wrote:
> 
> What evidence is there that CTH has “cultivated” a “red-brown politics”?

Of course that isn’t what I asserted. It does seem to me that CTH has to be 
seen as part of a broad range of cultural institutions (including also social 
media) that have made it more difficult to avoid the kind of distortions, 
simplifications and overstatements that both ARR’s writing and this thread 
(including Nick’s message) evince. Misrepresentation and overstatement are of 
course nothing new, but electronic communications allow such things to be 
amplified much more rapidly now and unfortunately I think that has created ripe 
cultural terrain for red-brown politics. That doesn’t mean that Taibbi or Ames 
or CTH are trying to cultivate such a thing.
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/21/19 2:59 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism wrote:

The eXile seems like it was quite gross but Ames has disavowed it. What
evidence is there that CTH has “cultivated” a “red-brown politics”?


What is the problem with citing Ross's article instead of characterizing 
it? He says that the alt-right digs CTH in the same way that Richard 
Spencer dug eXile, not the other way around. I am quite sure that the 
Chapo Frat House loathes these alt-right figures but Ross was simply 
pointing out that Richard Spencer describes Chapo sounding like an 
alt-right podcast, etc, etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsdPdlcrEcE


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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[Nick Fredman via Marxism]

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The eXile seems like it was quite gross but Ames has disavowed it. What
evidence is there that CTH has “cultivated” a “red-brown politics”? Their
guests have been people like DSA organisers, striking teachers, immigrant
rights activists, a YPG internationalist, Liza Featherstone, Libby Watson,
 Naomi Klein and China Mieville rather than Richard Spencer. Their “off”
language and jokes have been considerably toned down no doubt through
interaction with the activist left, and never anyway equated to
Strasserism. They seem in tune with a range of other US podcasters and
writers with an ironic, humorous schtick, politics broadly aligned with the
more radical end of the DSA, along with maybe a tendency to a liberal
“geopolitical” anti-imperialism WRT the Middle East which isn’t perfect but
isn’t fascism on the march. This silly writer seems to want to amalgamate
everything he doesn’t like to Nazism.

On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 at 6:07 am, MM via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> > On Jan 21, 2019, at 12:16 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
> > ARR is claiming Matt Taibbi and Chapo Trap House are part of
> > a Nazi infiltration?
>
> ARR may sometimes overstate things a bit, but in the same way that this
> from ARG is an overstatement. It would be more accurate to say that ARR is
> claiming that eXile and CTH have helped cultivate the ground within which
> red-brown politics has found roots. And that claim seems quite plausible.
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Jan 21, 2019, at 12:16 PM, A.R. G via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> ARR is claiming Matt Taibbi and Chapo Trap House are part of
> a Nazi infiltration?

ARR may sometimes overstate things a bit, but in the same way that this from 
ARG is an overstatement. It would be more accurate to say that ARR is claiming 
that eXile and CTH have helped cultivate the ground within which red-brown 
politics has found roots. And that claim seems quite plausible.
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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 1/21/19 12:16 PM, A.R. G wrote:
This is gross. ARR is claiming Matt Taibbi and Chapo Trap House are part 
of a Nazi infiltration? Give me a break.


It would be best if you directly quote Ross. I, for one, find it deeply 
disturbing that Richard Spencer was an eXile fan.

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Re: [Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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This is gross. ARR is claiming Matt Taibbi and Chapo Trap House are part of
a Nazi infiltration? Give me a break. Last week he claimed Rania Khalek was
an anti-Semite for tweeting that corporations have too much power over the
media. This guy is an absolute crackpot.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 9:52 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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>
> By Alexander Reid Ross
>
>
> https://medium.com/@areidross/from-exile-to-dirtbag-edgelord-geopolitics-and-the-rise-of-national-bolshevism-in-the-u-s-84822021b0e8
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[Marxism] From Exile to Dirtbag: Edgelord geopolitics and the rise of “National Bolshevism” in the U.S.

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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By Alexander Reid Ross

https://medium.com/@areidross/from-exile-to-dirtbag-edgelord-geopolitics-and-the-rise-of-national-bolshevism-in-the-u-s-84822021b0e8
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