Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
Gary MacLennan (gary.maclenn...@gmail.com) wrote on 2009-08-03 at 09:31:04 in about Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman: in response to my short quip: > > "One can't really separate one from the other." he responded: > Of course we can & moreover we have to. > The world is still in love with the "Man from yes we can". True at home in > the U.S of A, according to the polls, the glister is appearing to be wearing > thin and that is a sign of real hope. > there is also an urgent need to attack the illusions in Obama. > He and the Democratic Party are the enemy. > Just because there also exists a bunch of troglodytes slavering around the > place does not mean that we should ever lose sight of what Obama as a > bourgeois politician is and what bourgeois politics is all about - > maintaining the rule of the bourgeoisie. That is simple but it is not > simplistic at all at all. Simplistic is to proclaim that it is one or the other. In reality it is contradictory. "Splitting up the unity and recognition of its contradictory parts is the essence of dialectics" [my translation from German] is how Lenin begins a short article "On the question of dialectics" he wrote in 1915, while he was preparing taking power in the October Revolution by studying Hegel. Obama is not a homogeneous object, he is full of contradictions. Our task, that of proletarian revolutionists, is to recognize those contradictions and act on them. It is necessary to defend Obama's initial remarks about that Gate incident against the racist, white-supremacist campaign he was confronted with afterwards. It is necessary to criticise him for receding in front of those attacks. And it is possible without falling in the trap of proclaiming Obama "all bad" or "all good". Frederick Engels spoke of the "unity of identity and difference". Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany visit http://www.mlwerke.de Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotzki in German YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
After misrepresenting me, Gary magnanimously declares himself "content to let Mark have the last word here." He also generously declares his willingness to look at the evidence that I've challenged "the illusions in Obama." So I am guilty until I prove myself innocent. Most of what I say on this most explicitly takes place in the real world not on email, but the archives include quite a bit by me on this subject over the last couple of years. Most recently, I wrote "that the ruling class never scheduled an Obama administration but instead scheduled him to provide a figurehead for Clinton Redux. That's been his course, even down to the 'pragmatic' retreat from rhetoric towards the demoralization of his disillusioned supporters and defeat in the first off-year election." The rest of the post continue in that vein, though it was written all the way back on...Friday, July 31... ML YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
> > I've been fighting the illusions in Obama from the time he became a > figure on the national political scene, particularly over the course > of the campaign, and haven't seen any reason not to do so. > > Gary treats what I've actually said on this about as seriously as do > my bosses. It's a strange kind of socialism > > ML I am content to let Mark have the last word here. Moreover if he can direct me to the posts where he has fought the illusions in Obama, I will read them and of course offer a full apology. But I need to see to believe. regards Gary YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
Gary MacLennan wrote: > > what Mark has > persistently refused to acknowledge is that there is also an urgent need to > attack the illusions in Obama. > Gary's assertion that I've "refused to acknowledge . . . an urgent need to attack the illusions in Obama" is a rather pathetic pinkish reflection of the same kind of assertion the birthers make that Obama hasn't addressed the issue of his birth. I've been fighting the illusions in Obama from the time he became a figure on the national political scene, particularly over the course of the campaign, and haven't seen any reason not to do so. Gary treats what I've actually said on this about as seriously as do my bosses. It's a strange kind of socialism ML YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
Friendly & comradely greetings to Luko who in reply to my post on resisting the temptation to rush to defence of Obama instead of sticking to the task of defending the people said "One can't really separate one from the other." My response: Of course we can & moreover we have to. The ruling class need Obama much more than the working class do. True a rabid section of the ruling class is perhaps seeking to destroy him. Though I must register my personal scepticism about this. Just as I was sceptical when Walter (bless him!) raised the Clarence Thomas "attack" on Obama, I am sceptical now. about the existence of any move to destroy Obama's presidency. To my mind it is all going to plan for large sections of the American ruling class. The world is still in love with the "Man from yes we can". True at home in the U.S of A, according to the polls, the glister is appearing to be wearing thin and that is a sign of real hope. I did not really understand Mark's post about the "birther crap" - presumably that is a reference to the smear that Obama was not born in the USA. Of course we defend anyone against racism etc. But what Mark has persistently refused to acknowledge is that there is also an urgent need to attack the illusions in Obama. He and the Democratic Party are the enemy. Just because there also exists a bunch of troglodytes slavering around the place does not mean that we should ever lose sight of what Obama as a bourgeois politician is and what bourgeois politics is all about - maintaining the rule of the bourgeoisie. That is simple but it is not simplistic at all at all. Now just in case someone is tempted to reply with the invective of "ultra-left", I do of course recognize the need to maneuver and to attempt to divide and position factions within the enemy camp and also I see the absolute need to fight for gains however small. Having said that I look forward to the day when the mass of the American people consign the Obama moment to the dust bin of history. regards Gary YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
Did anybody here expect any different in terms of U.S. relations with Iran? I can't recall anybody expecting any change with Obama in terms of foreign policy. His primary contribution there was always going to be putting a darker face on Clintonian policies As to "defending Obama," it's an earmark of the movement to defend anyone under attack because of the invidious distinctions of race, gender, gender preference, etc. We always have. I regard the "birther" crap as nothing but this, for example. Whilee--as the birther stuff indicates-[-we live in a much dumber universe than we used to, I don't think anyone seriously confuses this with political support...unless they want to, of course... ML YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
Gary MacLennan (gary.maclenn...@gmail.com) wrote on 2009-08-02 at 21:07:51 in about Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman: > > > But all that is really pointless compared with the reactions of all those > who invested their hopes in Obama. What will they do now that the > dialectics of disillusionment have begun? Impossible to say but let me be > frank that that I think it is most important that we do not fall into the > trap of defending Obama. True he is being attacked by the Right. But our > task as revolutionaries is to defend the people not some smooth phony. One can't really separate one from the other. Cheers, Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
Well I am resisting the "Itoldyousomoment". It seems to me that all this is another instance of something that I heard the Irish revolutionary Gerry Lawless say at Essex Uni long years ago. In a talk he touched up on the so-called Curragh Mutiny when British officers refused to obey the orders of the Liberal English Govt to confront the far right Northern Irish unionists. Lawless's comment was as I remember that the British Govt climbed down and that was why he was not a liberal for "liberals always back down in the face of an armed threat from the Right". So that is what we are seeing with "the man from yes we can". Obama has never been any thing other than a liberal. That in itself is quite remarkable in mainstream American politics and indeed enough to sow illusions and hopes everywhere. However the Right know their liberals quite well and know that they will always back down. But let us be quite clear here. It is not a question as Fred says of the Right trying to destroy Obama's administration. It is merely the Right flexing its muscle and the liberal Obama doing what he was always going to do - retreat while muttering "Yes we can but perhaps not just right now". But all that is really pointless compared with the reactions of all those who invested their hopes in Obama. What will they do now that the dialectics of disillusionment have begun? Impossible to say but let me be frank that that I think it is most important that we do not fall into the trap of defending Obama. True he is being attacked by the Right. But our task as revolutionaries is to defend the people not some smooth phony. comradely gary YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] End of short unhappy life of "engagement" with Iran Re: Fred Feldman
from Fred : "More and more I suspect that the successful coup of sorts is taking place not in Honduras (where the putschists are embattled) but in Washington (where it is meeting no visible resistance, including from one of its central targets, the current President". The gruesome truth, Fred. Meanwhile, the coup which is taking place in Washington( where every coup is usually taking place ) is spread on the grandiose scale into the rest of the world. And we, here in the US, have a burning hope for some resistance (to any coup, in any part of the world!) would grow strong enough to help our slumber in our "democracy" to be interrupted. Somehow.Maybe. Meanwhile, Uncle Tom, the Uncle Sam's grandson, can enjoy the beers in the White House, memorizing lines from his "intellectual speeches" to impress the world - wide public with the American President, who ( a miracle!) is capable of speaking... The best of us are buried under the unbearably heavy burden of guilt... Why? Because, the best of us are knowledgeable, well educated people, who have learned during the course of self-education that every coup in the world takes the root in Washington. So, to take the root out, that's should be the Leninist' quest, I suppose. comradely, Lara YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
