Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[Waistline2]

>> There are roughly two big aspects.  Is the system broken  or "evil" in 
Moore's terminology ?  They have to be convinced that that is  true before 
they look to the second  aspect, what is the solution.   Moore is making a big 
step in massively broadcasting the claim that the first  aspect is true.<<
 
Comment
 
Our working class is not uniform in its economic life. The moment this  
movie is viewed by millions, the ideological and politically ante is upped. My  
best guess is the moment this movie is viewed by millions is the moment it  
becomes outdated and no longer capable of further developing the 
consciousness  of the workers. This is not a bad thing.  
 
America needs a Third Edition of the American Revolution: Proletarian  
Revolution. In this sense, we are not very different from the early  
abolitionists campaigning against slavery in 1850. There were different  
political 
wings of the abolitionist movement. Some of us occupy a similar space  to David 
Walker and “Walkers Appeal” only at a much higher level of development  of 
the productive forces. However, there is room for all aspects of the  
abolitionists movement. Some people are fighting to teach people city farming,  
others against evictions; for food stamps and so on. Today, the need is to  
abolish capitalism according to the wing of the movement I am in. We have no  
problem stating this in clear terms. Slavery - wage slavery, needs to be  
abolished. Down with the new wage slavery and the Slave - or rather,  
Financial Oligarchy.  
 
Moore’s Capitalism a love story - in this context, might turn of to be akin 
 to “Uncle Toms Cabin,” which came after Walkers Appeal.  Uncle Tom’s 
Cabin  was so powerful because of the decades of work of the abolitionists in 
all  political wings of the anti-slavery movement. On segment of the  movement 
sought to end slavery by purchasing the slaves and compensating the  slave 
owner. Some felt relocating the slaves in Africa was a good plan. Moore  has 
his point of view. You have your point of view and I have my point of view. 
 
Every layer of the working class relates to the system different. A  layer 
of workers are economically secure.  On the other hand as a retired  worker 
my benefits have been cut, but not nephews, a skilled tradesman in auto.  
The retired workers face an immediate struggle with the government and state.  
There is no way for Chrysler to meet our needs. The logic of capital has 
caused  the struggle of the retired workers to leap outside the bound of  
employer-employee relations. This motion as it gathers steam is going to change 
 
the union movement and make it more oriented towards labor rather than 
trade as  specific industry. 
 
Those workers increasingly shut out of the system is my choice of work  
area, because they are generally more receptive to communist - abolitionist,  
thought. Some of these modern slaves of capital will inevitably go the way of 
 John Brown. Some the way of Frederick Douglas. 
 
Moore’s movie - which I have not yet seen, widens and harmonizes the  
dialogue nationally. The capitalist class needs to be arrested by the working  
class; a real citizen arrest. Our audience is huge and our resources  tiny.   
 
The way of David Walker seems my individual fit and I like it. 
 
In the spirit of David Walker, Proletarians Unite, we have nothing to lose  
but our chains. 
 

WL 


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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[c b]

On 9/30/09, waistli...@aol.com  wrote:
> >>> So, this layer of workers is asking a sophisticated question,  a
> question about "the system", to the communists and socialists "if  you
> guys are so smart what kind of system do you propose and how will  it
> operate generally operate ?", but they do not have a clue as to  what
> the word "communist "means ? That doesn't ring true. First of all  ,
> you have been talking to them for a while, so they already have heard
> of  the term communist.<<
>
>
> Comment
>
> You miss the point. The point is “what is the solution.”  I will try  and
> write clearer. Other layers of the workers ask the same question. Take
> health care. “How will universal health care be paid for.”  Another layer  of
> the workers do not care how something is paid for and simply want access to
> socially necessary means of life.
>
> ***

There is more than one point.

There are roughly two big aspects.  Is the system broken or "evil" in
Moore's terminology ?  They have to be convinced that that is true
before they look to the second  aspect, what is the solution.  Moore
is making a big step in massively broadcasting the claim that the
first aspect is true
>
> >>> When I work with your comrades fighting for water as a human  right for
> low-income
> Detroiters or stopping the evictions of a bunch of  people in an apartment
> building in Highland Park, with me representing the  tenants, or Welfare
> Rights in general they deal with all kinds of literary petty  bourgeois
> intellectuals. <<<
>
> Comment
>
> I speak for myself and myself only. I meet all kinds of people as a way of
> life. My “baby”  - choice of work, is literature production with others.
> Here is an example. Both of us were involved in the last city election. The
> literature I passed out for that election was non-communist, because the
> candidate I was supporting is not a communist. However, after the election
> and  during it I was involved in other activity where I could utilize a
> revolutionary  press and Marxists literature.
> **


I was responding to your reference to your comrades.

>
> >>> Actually, if you look I didn't say mass _media_. I said just  mass work.
> The monopoly media is very corrupt on these issues. That's part of  why
> Moore's breakthrough in it , saying we need to replace capitalism  with
> democracy, is so extraordinary. <<<
>
> Comment
>
> Without question Moore’s movie as mass media is extraordinary. Because we
> were speaking of a movie opening nationwide I took the conversation to be
> about  mass media. I do not do work in the mass media. How one identify
> themselves and  their terminology is personal with political connotations. If 
> you
> choose to  speak in terms of other countries that is fine. All of us are not
> the same and  going to approach things different. My goal is to seek out
> those individuals  interested in revolutionary thought. When I was a young man
> the writings of  Engel’s changed my life. I have a feeling Engel’s will
> impact this generation of  young people the same way. Will be back in Detroit
> to stay in two weeks.
>
> WL.

I am not adverse to seeking out individuals interested in
revolutionary thought at all.  They are not large in number these
days, so there is plenty of time to do both that and reaching out to
larger numbers at the level of Moore's. I was being a bit, well,
semi-comic like Moore when I said throw over entirely to Moore-ism and
that he is our Lenin (smile)

Give me a call when you are here.

>
>
>
>

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[Waistline2]

>>> So, this layer of workers is asking a sophisticated question,  a
question about "the system", to the communists and socialists "if  you
guys are so smart what kind of system do you propose and how will  it
operate generally operate ?", but they do not have a clue as to  what
the word "communist "means ? That doesn't ring true. First of all  ,
you have been talking to them for a while, so they already have heard
of  the term communist.<< 
 

Comment
 
You miss the point. The point is “what is the solution.”  I will try  and 
write clearer. Other layers of the workers ask the same question. Take  
health care. “How will universal health care be paid for.”  Another layer  of 
the workers do not care how something is paid for and simply want access to  
socially necessary means of life. 
 
***
 
>>> When I work with your comrades fighting for water as a human  right for 
low-income
Detroiters or stopping the evictions of a bunch of  people in an apartment 
building in Highland Park, with me representing the  tenants, or Welfare 
Rights in general they deal with all kinds of literary petty  bourgeois 
intellectuals. <<<
 
Comment
 
I speak for myself and myself only. I meet all kinds of people as a way of  
life. My “baby”  - choice of work, is literature production with others.  
Here is an example. Both of us were involved in the last city election. The  
literature I passed out for that election was non-communist, because the  
candidate I was supporting is not a communist. However, after the election 
and  during it I was involved in other activity where I could utilize a 
revolutionary  press and Marxists literature. 
**
 
>>> Actually, if you look I didn't say mass _media_. I said just  mass work.
The monopoly media is very corrupt on these issues. That's part of  why
Moore's breakthrough in it , saying we need to replace capitalism  with
democracy, is so extraordinary. <<<
 
Comment
 
Without question Moore’s movie as mass media is extraordinary. Because we  
were speaking of a movie opening nationwide I took the conversation to be 
about  mass media. I do not do work in the mass media. How one identify 
themselves and  their terminology is personal with political connotations. If 
you 
choose to  speak in terms of other countries that is fine. All of us are not 
the same and  going to approach things different. My goal is to seek out 
those individuals  interested in revolutionary thought. When I was a young man 
the writings of  Engel’s changed my life. I have a feeling Engel’s will 
impact this generation of  young people the same way. Will be back in Detroit 
to stay in two weeks. 
 
WL. 
 
 
 
 

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[c b]

On 9/29/09, waistli...@aol.com waistli...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Communists and socialist are faced with a  challenge;  "If you guys are
> so
> > smart what kind of system do  you propose and how will it generally
> operate?"
>
> 
> CB: True, but  maybe we should dispense with these names in our mass
> work, and take up  Michael Moore's terminology.
>
> Reply
>
> I do not do mass media work. Michael Moore does what he does, he makes
> movies and I do not. Nor does any of my comrades. Our sphere of work is 
> amongst
>  a layer of the workers, who 99% are not anti-communist.
 In fact most have
> not a  clue as to what the word means.

^^^

So, this layer of workers is asking a sophisticated question, a
question about "the system",  to the communists and socialists "if you
guys are so smart what kind of system do you propose and how will it
operate generally operate ?", but they do not have a clue as to what
the word "communist "means ?   That doesn't ring true. First of all ,
you have been talking to them for a while, so they already have heard
of the term communist. Then it is certain that you have already clued
them into some of its meaning. Finally, they gotta be a bit , if not
rabidly, anti-communist because they have lived in this country for
all their lives, and they are asking you, a communist, a challenging
question, as you put it.



^^^

The literary petty bourgeois
> intellectual pretty  much fall outside of my sphere of work - by choice.


Well, preachers, lawyers, judges,  journalists, accountants,
politicians, city officials, students, professors and all sorts of
other literary petty bourgeois intellectuals don't fall outside the
sphere of work of your comrades in Detroit when they are trying
fighting for poor people's rights to water, housing . When I work with
your comrades  fighting for water as a human right for low-income
Detroiters or stopping the evictions of a bunch of people in an
apartment building in Highland Park, with me representing the tenants,
or Welfare Rights in general they deal with all kinds of literary
petty bourgeois intellectuals.  I see  Maureen and Marian working with
them all the time. They use more Michael Moore type terminology in
their mass work.


>
> We have some ideas about mass work and "mass literature," which 99.9% does
> not include the mass media, if I understand  your use of this term.

^
Actually, if you look I didn't say mass _media_. I said just mass work.

The monopoly media is very corrupt on these issues. That's part of why
Moore's breakthrough in it , saying we need to replace capitalism with
democracy,  is so extraordinary

^


In your
>  mass media work - as an individual, it is totally to your discretion how
> to  identify yourself. I am not a spokesperson for any organization, although
> I  belong to several. As a communist, I advocate economic communism and
> every  energy is geared towards winning the individual to the cause of
> communism and  rearing the next generation of communist in America.


Ok , but like the Bolivarians in Venezuela, the terminology used by
the next generation might be more like Michael Moore's

>
> In the moment I have always fought for the objectives of the moment under
> the banner victory to the workers in their current struggle. For instance,
> most  folks understood I was some kind of communists "something" in my trade
> union  work. When the issue was a strike I deal with the strike rather than
> theories  and ideology of communism. In my personal contact with individuals
> I make an  assessment of what kind of literature and propaganda is
> appropriate to the  moment.
>
> Actually, 99% of my work - for the past 40 years, deal with real struggles,
>  with only one assignment in the mass media. What creates a communist
> ideological  polarity, as a precondition to a political polarity, is an
> organization  dedicated to that.
>
> WL.

I didn't say mass _media_, although Michael Moore's opens up a
possibility of addressing even the mass media in terms such as
"replace capitalism with democracy"

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[Waistline2]

> Communists and socialist are faced with a  challenge;  "If you guys are  
so
> smart what kind of system do  you propose and how will it generally 
operate?"


CB: True, but  maybe we should dispense with these names in our mass
work, and take up  Michael Moore's terminology.

Reply  

I do not do mass media work. Michael Moore does what he does, he makes  
movies and I do not. Nor does any of my comrades. Our sphere of work is amongst 
 a layer of the workers, who 99% are not anti-communist. In fact most have 
not a  clue as to what the word means. The literary petty bourgeois 
intellectual pretty  much fall outside of my sphere of work - by choice. 
 
We have some ideas about mass work and "mass literature," which 99.9% does  
not include the mass media, if I understand  your use of this term. In your 
 mass media work - as an individual, it is totally to your discretion how 
to  identify yourself. I am not a spokesperson for any organization, although 
I  belong to several. As a communist, I advocate economic communism and 
every  energy is geared towards winning the individual to the cause of 
communism and  rearing the next generation of communist in America. 
 
In the moment I have always fought for the objectives of the moment under  
the banner victory to the workers in their current struggle. For instance, 
most  folks understood I was some kind of communists "something" in my trade 
union  work. When the issue was a strike I deal with the strike rather than 
theories  and ideology of communism. In my personal contact with individuals 
I make an  assessment of what kind of literature and propaganda is 
appropriate to the  moment. 
 
Actually, 99% of my work - for the past 40 years, deal with real struggles, 
 with only one assignment in the mass media. What creates a communist 
ideological  polarity, as a precondition to a political polarity, is an 
organization  dedicated to that. 
 
WL. 

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[c b]

Thinking like this, Shane could reach the conclusion that Socialist
Workers' Party had come full circle to the same ideas as Hitler's
National Socialist Workers Party. He's easily taken in by demogogy.

On 9/29/09, c b  wrote:
> On 9/29/09, Shane Mage  wrote:
> >
> > On Sep 29, 2009, at 4:36 PM, c b wrote:
> > >> What is democracy?
> > > CB: My short definition is popular sovereignty.
> >
> >
> > And so CB, coming full circle, endorses the slogan of the slaveocracy,
> > like Douglas in the debate with Lincoln.
>
>
> CB: No, I haven't come full circle. Shane is spinning around like a
> top and he's so dizzy he thinks it's me going in a circle, then vomits
> confused idiocy like this out.
>
> All Power the People !
>
>
> >
> > Shane Mage
> >
> > > This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it
> > > always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire,
> > > kindling in measures and going out in measures."
> > >
> > > Herakleitos of Ephesos
> >
> > ___
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> >
>

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[c b]

On 9/29/09, Shane Mage  wrote:
>
> On Sep 29, 2009, at 4:36 PM, c b wrote:
> >> What is democracy?
> > CB: My short definition is popular sovereignty.
>
>
> And so CB, coming full circle, endorses the slogan of the slaveocracy,
> like Douglas in the debate with Lincoln.


CB: No, I haven't come full circle. Shane is spinning around like a
top and he's so dizzy he thinks it's me going in a circle, then vomits
confused idiocy like this out.

All Power the People !


>
> Shane Mage
>
> > This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it
> > always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire,
> > kindling in measures and going out in measures."
> >
> > Herakleitos of Ephesos
>
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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[Shane Mage]

On Sep 29, 2009, at 4:36 PM, c b wrote:
>> What is democracy?
> CB: My short definition is popular sovereignty.


And so CB, coming full circle, endorses the slogan of the slaveocracy,  
like Douglas in the debate with Lincoln.

Shane Mage

> This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it
> always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire,
> kindling in measures and going out in measures."
>
> Herakleitos of Ephesos

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[c b]

On 9/29/09, waistli...@aol.com >
>
> CB. I agree. The more I thought about this , Moore is our most  advanced
> mass spokesperson. He is saying that capitalism _as a system_  has
> failed.  We often criticize liberal critiques of capitalism for  not
> raising a challenge to it as a system. Here is Michael Moore on  in
> major media challenging it as a system.  Leave it to the son of  an
> auto worker from Michigan.
>
> Reply
>
> What is democracy?

^
CB: My short definition is popular sovereignty.

^

 Democracy is the right of the people to have government
> rule in their favor as first impulse; and the right to compel government to
>  rule and dispense justice as the people define justice. Economic  justice
> is hotly contested in America with everyone agreeing such is desirable.
> Then the agreement end. Communist and socialist define economic justice  with 
> a
> concept of rights of classes. Capitalism's failure is understand as
> economic tyranny and political oppression. The working class - not capitalist 
> as
> a class, are being crushed. There is little democracy for the majority in a
> system where millions are unemployed and over 30% are temporary workers.

^
CB: This last point picks up on Michael Moore's approach. This is the
way in which true democracy must replace capitalism's fake
"democracy".

^^^

>
> Communists and socialist are faced with a challenge;  "If you guys are  so
> smart what kind of system do you propose and how will it generally operate?"


CB: True, but maybe we should dispense with these names in our mass
work, and take up Michael Moore's terminology.

^^^



> "Technology is taking peoples jobs and government rules outright in support
>  of the new financial institutions; what do you guy propose and how will it
>  work?"


CB:On that we could just propose that nationalization of the financial
system which we just bought for $11 trillion and counting.  The
financial managers have shown that they are incompetent and should be
replaced.

^^^

>
> "What is your vision?" (not your personally vision necessarily but the
> collective vision of communists and socialist?)
>
> Moore's movie up the ante. 2010 is going to be a blast with lots of  new
> propaganda. Throw the old literature/propaganda in the toilet. Save the old
> party literature in the archive for the more academic minded.

CB; Yes, pretty much.  Lets espouse Michael Moore-ism

^


>
> Our time has come.
> Interesting election in Ohio.


CB: I missed that election result. What was it ?

>
> WL.
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[Waistline2]

> Hey, posing capitalism to democracy is not that bad. It all depends on  
"how
>  one understanding specifically HOW the peoples of America  think things 
out
>  in real time."
 

CB. I agree. The more I thought about this , Moore is our most  advanced
mass spokesperson. He is saying that capitalism _as a system_  has
failed.  We often criticize liberal critiques of capitalism for  not
raising a challenge to it as a system. Here is Michael Moore on  in
major media challenging it as a system.  Leave it to the son of  an
auto worker from Michigan.
 
Reply
 
What is democracy? Democracy is the right of the people to have government  
rule in their favor as first impulse; and the right to compel government to 
 rule and dispense justice as the people define justice. Economic  justice 
is hotly contested in America with everyone agreeing such is desirable.  
Then the agreement end. Communist and socialist define economic justice  with a 
concept of rights of classes. Capitalism's failure is understand as  
economic tyranny and political oppression. The working class - not capitalist 
as  
a class, are being crushed. There is little democracy for the majority in a  
system where millions are unemployed and over 30% are temporary workers. 
 
Communists and socialist are faced with a challenge;  "If you guys are  so 
smart what kind of system do you propose and how will it generally operate?" 
"Technology is taking peoples jobs and government rules outright in support 
 of the new financial institutions; what do you guy propose and how will it 
 work?"
 
"What is your vision?" (not your personally vision necessarily but the  
collective vision of communists and socialist?) 
 
Moore's movie up the ante. 2010 is going to be a blast with lots of  new 
propaganda. Throw the old literature/propaganda in the toilet. Save the old  
party literature in the archive for the more academic minded.  
 
Our time has come. 
Interesting election in Ohio. 
 
WL. 
 
 

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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[c b]

On 9/28/09, waistli...@aol.com  wrote:
> Seems MM latest movie: Capitalism: A Love Story is going to deepen the
> dialogue about capitalism and alternatives to the free market economy, 
> morality
>  and ideology.
> "Love means never having to say you're sorry" is the famous line form the
> original 1970 movie "Love Story," and the first line in the Whisper's 1972
> hit,  "Can't Help But Love You" from the album "Love Story." If I am not
> mistaken did  not the girl in the movie die.

^^
Yeah, like Juliet in Romeo and Juliet (smile)

>
> Hey, posing capitalism to democracy is not that bad. It all depends on "how
>  one understanding specifically HOW the peoples of America think things out
>  in real time."


I agree. The more I thought about this , Moore is our most advanced
mass spokesperson. He is saying that capitalism _as a system_ has
failed.  We often criticize liberal critiques of capitalism for not
raising a challeng to it as a system. Here is Michael Moore on in
major media challenging it as a system.  Leave it to the son of an
autoworker from Michigan.

^


The pace of change in the ideological sphere has been
> breathtaking. A year ago the presidential election was deepening and socialism
> had not been pushed onto the front page. The communists are only a tiny
> fragment  of American society and how we explain a new economy model is going 
> to
> turn  about to be real important.
>
> Yea, its a love story.
>
> WL.

Also, in the interview I saw, Moore said it's a comedy (smile). Comedy
is superior to tragedy, Hegel said
>
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Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[Waistline2]

Seems MM latest movie: Capitalism: A Love Story is going to deepen the  
dialogue about capitalism and alternatives to the free market economy, morality 
 and ideology. 
"Love means never having to say you're sorry" is the famous line form the  
original 1970 movie "Love Story," and the first line in the Whisper's 1972 
hit,  "Can't Help But Love You" from the album "Love Story." If I am not 
mistaken did  not the girl in the movie die. 
 
Hey, posing capitalism to democracy is not that bad. It all depends on "how 
 one understanding specifically HOW the peoples of America think things out 
 in real time." The pace of change in the ideological sphere has been  
breathtaking. A year ago the presidential election was deepening and socialism  
had not been pushed onto the front page. The communists are only a tiny 
fragment  of American society and how we explain a new economy model is going 
to 
turn  about to be real important. 
 
Yea, its a love story. 
 
WL. 

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[Marxism-Thaxis] Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed

[c b]

Michael Moore: Capitalism has proven it's failed




'CAPITALISM: A LOVE STORY' LA Premiere Screening Michael Moore


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