[Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
When I sent the quote on dialectics from Karl Marx in response to the inquiry of Susan F Dane, I cut off the last paragraph . I put it back in below. I do so because it is a nice comment on the current economic crisis , and even more interestingly, how it is the bourgeois media that keeps popping up with the word socialism , as if the crisis has drummed dialectics into their head. The contradictions inherent in the movement of capitalist society impress themselves upon the practical bourgeois most strikingly in the changes of the periodic cycle, through which modern industry runs, and whose crowning point is the universal crisis. That crisis is once again approaching, although as yet but in its preliminary stage; and by the universality of its theatre and the intensity of its action it will drum dialectics even into the heads of the mushroom-upstarts of the new, holy Prusso-German empire. Karl Marx http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p3.htm Whilst the writer pictures what he takes to be actually my method, in this striking and [as far as concerns my own application of it] generous way, what else is he picturing but the dialectic method? Of course the method of presentation must differ in form from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the material in detail, to analyse its different forms of development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only after this work is done, can the actual movement be adequately described. If this is done successfully, if the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a mere a priori construction. My dialectic method is not only different from the Hegelian, but is its direct opposite. To Hegel, the life-process of the human brain, i.e., the process of thinking, which, under the name of “the Idea,” he even transforms into an independent subject, is the demiurgos of the real world, and the real world is only the external, phenomenal form of “the Idea.” With me, on the contrary, the ideal is nothing else than the material world reflected by the human mind, and translated into forms of thought. The mystifying side of Hegelian dialectic I criticised nearly thirty years ago, at a time when it was still the fashion. But just as I was working at the first volume of “Das Kapital,” it was the good pleasure of the peevish, arrogant, mediocre Epigonoi [Epigones – Büchner, Dühring and others] who now talk large in cultured Germany, to treat Hegel in same way as the brave Moses Mendelssohn in Lessing’s time treated Spinoza, i.e., as a “dead dog.” I therefore openly avowed myself the pupil of that mighty thinker, and even here and there, in the chapter on the theory of value, coquetted with the modes of expression peculiar to him. The mystification which dialectic suffers in Hegel’s hands, by no means prevents him from being the first to present its general form of working in a comprehensive and conscious manner. With him it is standing on its head. It must be turned right side up again, if you would discover the rational kernel within the mystical shell. In its mystified form, dialectic became the fashion in Germany, because it seemed to transfigure and to glorify the existing state of things. In its rational form it is a scandal and abomination to bourgeoisdom and its doctrinaire professors, because it includes in its comprehension and affirmative recognition of the existing state of things, at the same time also, the recognition of the negation of that state, of its inevitable breaking up; because it regards every historically developed social form as in fluid movement, and therefore takes into account its transient nature not less than its momentary existence; because it lets nothing impose upon it, and is in its essence critical and revolutionary. The contradictions inherent in the movement of capitalist society impress themselves upon the practical bourgeois most strikingly in the changes of the periodic cycle, through which modern industry runs, and whose crowning point is the universal crisis. That crisis is once again approaching, although as yet but in its preliminary stage; and by the universality of its theatre and the intensity of its action it will drum dialectics even into the heads of the mushroom-upstarts of the new, holy Prusso-German empire. Karl Marx London January 24, 1873 This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
One correction: Feuerbach and Bruner, I meant Bruno Bauer there (although see also Brunner in the discussion of dialectic in theology). CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
Freak out of the week: I was trawling for stuff on Lonergan and came up with a Time.com archive article that dates 1965! http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,940894-1,00.html That was when Time still had extended discourse on real topics. I remember reading about how the Vietnam War was going in Time when my classmates were reading 'See Sue run. Sue runs fast. Tom runs fast too. Spot runs faster than either Sue or Tom. Perhaps if I had stuck with the school reading I would be more informed today? CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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WL:As a practical question it never occurred to me to challenge individuals about their belief system and I generally work with people around specific issues that do not require philosophic debate as a precondition for activity. Further, I long ago gave up philosophic discussions under the banner of being anti-philosophy. After all the philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. The communist approach is to more accurately describe the world in which we live as the basis to grapple with the practical questions facing the proletarian movement. I leave the great philosophic debates to my betters. The irony being, I should think you could reach more people by trying to have philosophy debates and challenges of belief systems on an e-mail discussion list than you can in any curent 'proletarian movement'. To be quite honest, the communist movements to which you sometimes refer seem like more far-out fantasies than these discussions. CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
In a message dated 12/25/2008 6:03:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jann...@gmail.com writes: The irony being, I should think you could reach more people by trying to have philosophy debates and challenges of belief systems on an e-mail discussion list than you can in any curent 'proletarian movement'. To be quite honest, the communist movements to which you sometimes refer seem like more far-out fantasies than these discussions. CJ Comment We perhaps mean different things by communism and communist movement. Communism is not a new phenomenon and did not come into being with Marx. For over thousands of years, human society was organized on the basis of communist economic relations. People lived in gathering and hunting groups where cooperation was essential to survival. Human society organized into economic classes, with a dominant class living off the labor of exploited classes, is relatively new, and the economic system of capitalism has existed for less than 600 years. Almost all of human history is the history of common ownership of the means of production and distribution. By communism movement I generally mean the spontaneous movement of humanity toward cooperation that erupted with the overthrow of primitive communism. I tend to alternate using words like the Marxist movement or communist and Marxist movement to distinguish it from the spontaneous communist movement of humanity. There is of course a Marxist current - movement, that is more than 100 years old in America, with a coherent literary tradition at least 80 years old. Personally, I subscribed to a form of communism long before I ever heard of Marx. For those that enjoy it, there is nothing wrong with a philosophic tumble in the hay. Happy holidays. Waistline **One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0025) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
By communism movement I generally mean the spontaneous movement of humanity toward cooperation that erupted with the overthrow of primitive communism. I tend to alternate using words like the Marxist movement or communist and Marxist movement to distinguish it from the spontaneous communist movement of humanity. There is of course a Marxist current - movement, that is more than 100 years old in America, with a coherent literary tradition at least 80 years old. Are you sure you aren't talking about a rock concert or something? CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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In a message dated 12/25/2008 7:45:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jann...@gmail.com writes: By communism movement I generally mean the spontaneous movement of humanity toward cooperation that erupted with the overthrow of primitive communism. I tend to alternate using words like the Marxist movement or communist and Marxist movement to distinguish it from the spontaneous communist movement of humanity. There is of course a Marxist current - movement, that is more than 100 years old in America, with a coherent literary tradition at least 80 years old. Are you sure you aren't talking about a rock concert or something? CJ Comment Yea, I am pretty sure that the history of the Marxist movement in America is art best only marginally related to rock concerts, although our Marxist/communist group in Detroit always gave wonderful parties and huge dance fundraiser's. Actually, much of the literary history of the Marxist movement - or organized Marxist political currents, can be traced through their literature, much of it donated to libraries. By the early 1980's I had managed to collect most copies of the CPUSA journal Political Affairs between roughly 1930 and 1979. Many people were won over to Marxism on one level or another between 1955 (the outbreak of the Civil Rights moment as mass movement, i.e. Montgomery Alabama., and the peaking of the so-called Young Communist Movement in the late and early 1980. In this regard Max Elbuam's Revolution in the Air does a fine job of chronicling the Marxist organizations of the 1980s and early 1980's. Then of course those with political Trotskyism in their history can consult the SWP literature. I am convince beyond any doubt that America is on the verge of the outbreak of a different kind of mass movement. No matter how one understands the significance of the Obama election - and it was significance in the meaning of overcoming the historical barrier of racial hate in regard to voting for a black for president, perhaps 2 - 3 million people in total took to out door rally's in support of Obama. Such a movement of people has not been witnessed in America since the stormy days of the Civil Rights Movement. There are many important lessons of history to be gleamed by anyone serious enough to study the history of the American Marxist movement on the one hand and the outbreak of the spontaneous movement of the masses as a mass movement. In as much as there is no evidence I am aware of that capital is going to solve this particular financial and overproduction crisis in the next week, it seems that economic matters for the masses are going to become worse in 2009. Perhaps we will once again see the proliferation of various communist/Marxist press and a demand for Marxist literature of all kinds. Including the relationship of/between Marxism and Theology. Waistline **One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0025) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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Really, WL, your gidiness is contagious. I too am hopeful now that GMAC has become a bank and GM got a federal loan to keep overproducing. And I can't wait for those outdoor Demoncratic Corn Soup Rallies of 2012! CJ -- Japan Higher Education Outlook http://japanheo.blogspot.com/ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested :(
In a message dated 12/25/2008 9:59:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jann...@gmail.com writes: Really, WL, your gidiness is contagious. I too am hopeful now that GMAC has become a bank and GM got a federal loan to keep overproducing. And I can't wait for those outdoor Demoncratic Corn Soup Rallies of 2012! CJ Comment If I am not mistaken GM/GMAC is 51% own by . . . Cerberus, that happens to own 81% of Chrysler. Daimler owns 19% of Chrysler. I looked at the early talks of a possible merger of Chrysler with GM very suspiciously. I see no way out of the crisis and suspect that both GM and Chrysler will collapse one way or another. Stabilization is not only possible but probable, on the basis of ruining millions. For most of this decade the new vehicle market ran at a 17 million unit clip. If the auto market for new vehicles remain 10.5 million this year and in 2009 - and it probably will, the collapse of one of the Detroit makers are certain. It is not simply a matter of overproduction but overcapacity, which will be further heightened when the production of electric vehicles - which calls for newer factories with another level of advanced technology, begins and then is stabilized. I do remember when it took 120,000 Chrysler workers to produce 2.5 million vehicles, which today can be produced by 43,000. And Chrysler plants are not world class. Further, the first three months of the years are generally the weakest for auto sales even during boom times! Someone is going to hit the wall. Probably Chrysler my old employer. I do not see nationalization of auto or the banking industry as a temporary or partial solution. Nationalization is going to be dangerous and complex in America because a section of capital wants to expand the role of the corporation on the basis of expanded state intervention over every aspect of social life and apparently we will be dragged into some form of nationalization willingly or unwillingly. Much of the problem is that the union leaders are more than less hopelessly right wing Social democrats (although many like to think of themselves as left wing) and the mass of auto workers only become revolutionized and open to new ideas in the face of their impending doom or the loss of their historic status as the bulwark of the industrial Middle class. Also hitting the wall is the old stale theory of the industrial proletariat in unions as leader and vanguard of the workers - labor movement. The auto workers should have been hit the street and marching on Washington in protest demanding government protected socially necessary means of life and all the concessions over mortgages and everything else one feels the middle class need. Life is indeed strange. Is it me or is it a more than less fact that only one generation of American workers have gotten a reasonable pension? I think it is going to be relatively easy to educate our working class and present it with some new ideas, provided we actually come up with new ideas.:) I will of course be very glad when someone or a group of folks figure out the path of our own revolution, rather than rehashing Lenin for the millionth time. Hell, Lenin and his crew overthrew the feudal order and later defeated the representatives of capital in the political contest. We need some hard stuff about a modern capitalist country. Uhhh, the soup lines have already started. No need to wait for 2012. :( Waistline **One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0025) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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Condescension, and thinking oneself no better, are the same. To adapt to the weakness of the oppressed is to affirm in it the pre-condition of power, and to develop in oneself the coarseness, insensibility and violence needed to exert domination . . . . -- Theodor W. Adorno I have re-posted my message on Karl Korsch. While it results from a different line of inquiry, its conclusions relate to the question of Marxism and religion. Let me reference again Korsch, in whose cited writings I see the key issue as the “relationship between the totality of historical being and all historically prevalent forms of consciousness.” I also suggested that this issue foregrounds a fundamental dialectical perspective which the history of Marxist politics has effectively obscured. I did not elaborate further. Now I'll just add a few relevant comments. It is a fundamental error to diagnose a situation solely from the perspective of instrumental politics. It has been virtually axiomatic among Marxists, save for sectarians, and as opposed to anarchists, not to make irreligion a criterion or policy for mass organizing, even while promoting a materialist philosophy among intellectually engaged people. Diplomacy is a tactical issue, not a matter of intellectual principle. The fact is, no matter how outspoken one may be, and I am more outspoken than most, no one can reveal all he thinks in all situations, but it is wise to know whom one is dealing with at all times and the implications of the mentalities one encounters, for how people think is indicative of the state of social evolution, whether one is in a position to change other people's minds or not. Hence, there is no issue with making qualified alliances with religious people, but it would be remiss to kowtow to the backward nonsense of liberation theology, which, after all, is a creation of intellectuals anyway. The physician's first duty is to cause no harm. If you fear contradicting other people's illusions, keep your mouth shut rather than encourage them. Surely we all have to do this. Many folks at Christmas gatherings tomorrow will have to bite their tongues, for example. Since almost all of the religious people I deal with are black Christians, I have to endure some ten-ton ignorance. I don't impose on them, and I'm not going to allow them to impose on me and mine. Let me repeat Korsch's phrase: “relationship between the totality of historical being and all historically prevalent forms of consciousness.” This requires a broader view than the pragmatic question of whose ass I have to kiss to get over. Or for that matter, than the tacit motivation which feeds much of this kowtowing: I feel guilty because I am not as miserable as those people and I shouldn't feel superior and I feel the need to belong, to join in, or suck up to them. There have been Marxist as well as generic secular humanist/atheist critiques of liberation theology, specifically Latin American liberation theology. I know I've read them but can't offer any references at this point. I use the term loosely to cover all manifestations of same, which I find quite repulsive. See for example my recent blog entry: Eddie Glaude Jr. the bankruptcy of the black religious intellectual http://reasonsociety.blogspot.com/2008/12/eddie-glaude-jr-bankruptcy-of-black.html May you all enjoy Isaac Newton's birthday tomorrow to the fullest. -Original Message- From: Ralph Dumain Sent: Dec 23, 2008 8:45 AM To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested I am puzzled as to how the question of reductionism is related to the question of liberation theology. Perhaps these were intended as separate questions. Re reductionism: note that the current location of my Emergence blog is: http://www.autodidactproject.org/blog/emergence/ If you read my introduction, you will see the main purpose of this blog: http://autodidactproject.org/blog/emergence/index.php/about/ I am attempting to track the divergent interpretations of emergence and their ideological and social motivations, some of which are quiter suspect. Does this at all relate to liberation theology? Perhaps there are links. For example, the obscurantist mystical-religious emergentism that comprises one strand of emergentism relates to the crisis of bourgeois society and its reversion to irrationalism. This strand of emergentism is financed in the millions of dollars by the reactionary Templeton Foundation. There have been linkages, affrimative linkages, between Marxism and religionism prior to the current epoch in which liberation theology was labeled as a trend. I will only single out one that points to one source of mystification: “Love Is the Fulfilling of the Law” by Hewlett Johnson, Dean of Canterbury This is a chapter from the Red Dean Johnson's 1940 pro-Stalinist
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
I think the link may have dropped out of this reference: “Love Is the Fulfilling of the Law” by Hewlett Johnson, Dean of Canterbury So here it is: http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/HJ-SP1.html The Red Dean was hardly atypical of fellow-traveling Christian socialists who pimped for Stalinism. -Original Message- ... This is a chapter from the Red Dean Johnson's 1940 pro-Stalinist apologia The Soviet Power. Note his sophistical argument allying dialectical materialism with Christianity and opposing both to materialism. Presumably the latter is inter alia implicitly condemned as reductionist while diamat is consonant with a religious point of view. .. ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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It is not quite as interesting a question as say, questions that fall under What does Marxism have to do with structuralism or with philosophy in general. Theology finds a better fit with issues in hermeneutics or pondering Wittgenstein (who has been described as non-religious as well as Christian fundamentalist by his biographers). Liberation theology as I was forced to study it seems to emanate from European protestant Christianity of the 'catholic' type (e.g., Lutheranism). The Latin American versions seem to me to emphasize praxis and led to a split within the RCC, including a clamp-down from above and excommunications of priests and nuns. Some of this could be read in terms of a bottom-up RCC response to forms of fundamentalist and pentecostal Christianity and the huge in-roads these forms have made in the developing world. It seems to recapitulate the ways in which Jesuits, as footsoldiers for their God, ended up in conflict with the Pope as well as kings. The European Protestant versions sometimes results in high-church theologian types reaching the intellecutal conclusion that they are materialist atheists. See also the developments of European existentialism, both of a Christian and secular nature. I suggest this book, much of which you can access online, as a start. http://books.google.com/books?id=roYDpWaUicgC Page 11 Moreover, the encounter with Marxist analysis that enters into my argument has forced me to confront as well problems raised by Hegel. ... Page 34 The dialectic with Marx, as we will also see in greater detail later, would display at least four points of divergence from Marxist analysis: (1) the ... Page 93 We will see in the course of our argument that the scale of values is also the basic feature in an understanding of society that would reorient Marxist ... Page 94 A reorientation of Marxist analysis must be part of the work of what we will call a cosmopolitan intellectual collaboration devoted to the reversal of the ... Page 101 ... Marxist ... more » Page 156 ... Marxist ... Page 208 ... Marxist ... Page 359 ... Marxist ... Page 361 The praxis of Marxist revolutionaries can easily be seen to appeal to this autonomous factor, while their theory does not acknowledge it in its autonomous ... Page 387 The application of this notion that we will make here will entail an encounter with some of the fundamental principles of the Marxist analysis of society. ... Page 388 Second, the real crux of the difference between the Marxist position and the view offered here - that is, my position on the relation of cultural values to ... Page 389 Moreover, the mistaken apprehensions of Marxist analysis, when joined to the passionate motivation that energizes Marxist praxis, are generative of a ... Page 390 pronounced and violent when rationalized by a persuasive ideology, whether that informing Marxist praxis or that constitutive of late liberalism. ... Page 401 There are certain constants in the Marxist perspective that skew the tension of limitation and transcendence throughout, and these must be kept in mind as ... Page 410 In the face of Marxist analysis, we shall argue with Lonergan that, while Marx indeed presented an analysis of what in fact can happen when group bias holds ... Page 411 Marxist positivism is far more subtle than most other varieties of intellectual capitulation to the status quo, but it is just as subject as these other ... Page 412 But the critique must awaken the real principle of reversal, and Marxist analysis does not meet the challenge. The principle of reversal is, again, ... Page 413 One merit of John McMurtry's book is that it answers this question in generalized Marxist terms, and thus displays a glaring discrepancy between the Marxist ... Page 414 Fourth, the fact that Marxist analysis can be turned on Marxist states is due, I believe, to a distortion of the dialectic of community that is structurally ... Page 427 Neither the mainline sociology of North America, which still prevails in many Latin American academic contexts, nor Marxist sociology, has proven adequate ... Page 434 ... of mainline North American sociology and of Marxist thought for providing an adequate tool of social analysis for theologians intent on liberation. ... Page 435 At this point, then, I must question the move that Segundo makes after he discloses the inadequacies of mainline North American and Marxist sociologies for ... Page 466 If one answers, the dialectic of community, one joins hands with a Marxist subordination of cultural and personal values to the social infrastructure, ... Page 474 Liberal democratic and Marxist political philosophies, albeit in quite different ways, in effect collapse the scale of values into the two more basic levels ... Page 475 We will grant that Marxist critique forces a dialectical clarification of the nature of genuine cultural, personal, and religious values; but we will agree ... Page 476 Regarding the second, Marxist analysis forces a
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
Thanks for the reference to this loathsome piece of shit, which reminds me that I neglected to mention the liberation theologians' critical engagement with Marxism, which involves points of agreement as well as metaphysical and theological disagreements. One major publisher for this srot of thing, I believe, is Orbis. I find this book interesting only in the sense that it can be useful to know one's enemies, particularly the depth at which their intellectual dishonesty operates. -Original Message- From: CeJ jann...@gmail.com Sent: Dec 24, 2008 6:32 PM To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested It is not quite as interesting a question as say, questions that fall under What does Marxism have to do with structuralism or with philosophy in general. Theology finds a better fit with issues in hermeneutics or pondering Wittgenstein (who has been described as non-religious as well as Christian fundamentalist by his biographers). Liberation theology as I was forced to study it seems to emanate from European protestant Christianity of the 'catholic' type (e.g., Lutheranism). The Latin American versions seem to me to emphasize praxis and led to a split within the RCC, including a clamp-down from above and excommunications of priests and nuns. Some of this could be read in terms of a bottom-up RCC response to forms of fundamentalist and pentecostal Christianity and the huge in-roads these forms have made in the developing world. It seems to recapitulate the ways in which Jesuits, as footsoldiers for their God, ended up in conflict with the Pope as well as kings. The European Protestant versions sometimes results in high-church theologian types reaching the intellecutal conclusion that they are materialist atheists. See also the developments of European existentialism, both of a Christian and secular nature. I suggest this book, much of which you can access online, as a start. http://books.google.com/books?id=roYDpWaUicgC Page 11 Moreover, the encounter with Marxist analysis that enters into my argument has forced me to confront as well problems raised by Hegel. ... Page 34 The dialectic with Marx, as we will also see in greater detail later, would display at least four points of divergence from Marxist analysis: (1) the ... Page 93 We will see in the course of our argument that the scale of values is also the basic feature in an understanding of society that would reorient Marxist ... Page 94 A reorientation of Marxist analysis must be part of the work of what we will call a cosmopolitan intellectual collaboration devoted to the reversal of the ... Page 101 ... Marxist ... more » Page 156 ... Marxist ... Page 208 ... Marxist ... Page 359 ... Marxist ... Page 361 The praxis of Marxist revolutionaries can easily be seen to appeal to this autonomous factor, while their theory does not acknowledge it in its autonomous ... Page 387 The application of this notion that we will make here will entail an encounter with some of the fundamental principles of the Marxist analysis of society. ... Page 388 Second, the real crux of the difference between the Marxist position and the view offered here - that is, my position on the relation of cultural values to ... Page 389 Moreover, the mistaken apprehensions of Marxist analysis, when joined to the passionate motivation that energizes Marxist praxis, are generative of a ... Page 390 pronounced and violent when rationalized by a persuasive ideology, whether that informing Marxist praxis or that constitutive of late liberalism. ... Page 401 There are certain constants in the Marxist perspective that skew the tension of limitation and transcendence throughout, and these must be kept in mind as ... Page 410 In the face of Marxist analysis, we shall argue with Lonergan that, while Marx indeed presented an analysis of what in fact can happen when group bias holds ... Page 411 Marxist positivism is far more subtle than most other varieties of intellectual capitulation to the status quo, but it is just as subject as these other ... Page 412 But the critique must awaken the real principle of reversal, and Marxist analysis does not meet the challenge. The principle of reversal is, again, ... Page 413 One merit of John McMurtry's book is that it answers this question in generalized Marxist terms, and thus displays a glaring discrepancy between the Marxist ... Page 414 Fourth, the fact that Marxist analysis can be turned on Marxist states is due, I believe, to a distortion of the dialectic of community that is structurally ... Page 427 Neither the mainline sociology of North America, which still prevails in many Latin American academic contexts, nor Marxist sociology, has proven adequate ... Page 434 ... of mainline North American sociology and of Marxist thought for providing an adequate tool of social analysis for theologians intent on liberation. ... Page 435 At this point, then, I must question the move
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
Follow up. Try reading about and reading some of the works of: Ernst Bloch Jürgen Moltmann Rudolf Bultmann For secondary sources, for example, see: http://crs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/31/1-2/115 http://www.jstor.org/pss/2381215 CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
Second and most likely last follow up: Starting with Hegel's dialectic, we could go very nicely to Feuerbach and Bruner, and then on to Marx--but also Kierkegaard as well. I've never approached Marx from a religious angle (had a religious angle forced down my throat while studying Wittgenstein though). However, it is actually a fascinating way to get a fresh handle on some rather old topics. So, starting with the 'Young Hegelians', we see how many had theology as their focus. We can even see prefiguring of where much of theology would go in the 20th century (though Stirner is interesting as a prefigurement of Nietzsche, as well as perhaps direct influence, but he is interesting in this discussion because he mocked not only religion but European atheist ideologies as crypto-Christian, a charge that would be brought against 'scientific socialism' in the term 'messianism'). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Hegelians Main Members [edit] David Strauss David Strauss wrote Das Leben Jesu (The Life of Jesus|The Life of Jesus, Critically Examined) in 1835, in which he argued - in a Hegelian framework - against both the supernatural elements of the Gospel and the idea that the Christian church was the sole bearer of absolute truth. He believed the Gospel stories were mythical responses to the situation the Jewish community at the time found themselves in. The idea that 'infinite reason' or 'the absolute' (i.e. broadly Hegelian notions of God) could be incarnated within a finite human being was particularly absurd. Moreover, the original teachings of Jesus, which were aimed at aiding the poor and downtrodden, had slowly been perverted and usurped by the establishment to manipulate and oppress the populaces of the world by promising them a reward in the afterlife if they refrained from rebellion against the powers that be in this. [edit] Bruno Bauer Bruno Bauer went further, and claimed that the entire story of Jesus was a myth. He found no record of anyone named Yeshua of Nazareth in any then-extant Roman records. (Subsequent research has, in fact, found such citations, notably by the Roman historian Tacitus and the Jewish historian Josephus, although these citations are not contemporaneous with Jesus' life and are widely viewed as forgeries.) Bauer argued that almost all prominent historical figures in antiquity are referenced in other works (e.g., Aristophanes mocking Socrates in his plays), but as he could not find any such references to Jesus, it was likely that the entire story of Jesus was fabricated [edit] Ludwig Feuerbach Ludwig Feuerbach wrote a psychological profile of a believer called Das Wesen des Christentums (The Essence of Christianity). He argues that the believer is presented with a doctrine that encourages the projection of fantasies onto the world. Believers are encouraged to believe in miracles, and to idealize all their weaknesses by imagining an omnipotent, omniscient, immortal God who represents the antithesis of all human flaws and shortcomings. [edit] Karl Neuwerck Karl Neuwerck was a lecturer of Hegelian philosophy in Berlin who lost his teaching license along with Bruno Bauer in 1842.[3] [edit] Arnold Ruge As an advocate of a free and united Germany, Arnold Ruge shared Hegel's belief that history is a progressive advance towards the realization of freedom, and that freedom is attained in the State, the creation of the rational General Will. At the same time he criticized Hegel for having given an interpretation of history which was closed to the future, in the sense that it left no room for novelty.[4] [edit] Max Stirner Max Stirner would occasionally socialize with the Young Hegelians, but held views much to the contrary of these thinkers, all of whom he consequently satirized and mocked in his nominalist masterpiece Der Einzige und Sein Eigentum (The Ego and Its Own). [edit] Younger Members [edit] Karl Marx Another Young Hegelian, Karl Marx, was at first sympathetic with this strategy of attacking Christianity to undermine the Prussian establishment, but later formed divergent ideas and broke with the Young Hegelians, attacking their views in works such as The German Ideology. Marx concluded that religion is not the basis of the establishment's power, but rather ownership of capital -- land, money, and the means of production -- lie at the heart of the establishment's power. Marx felt religion was just a smokescreen to obscure this true basis of establishment power, and indeed, was a vital crutch for the oppressed proletariat -- the opium of the people, their sole solace in life which he would not wish to take away. [edit] Friedrich Engels Friedrich Engels contributed alongside Karl Marx to The Communist Manifesto. Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page. (May 2008) [edit] August von Cieszkowski August Cieszkowski focused on Hegel's view of world history and reformed it to better accommodate
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In a message dated 12/25/2008 2:20:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jann...@gmail.com writes: Second and most likely last follow up: Starting with Hegel's dialectic, we could go very nicely to Feuerbach and Bruner, and then on to Marx--but also Kierkegaard as well. I've never approached Marx from a religious angle (had a religious angle forced down my throat while studying Wittgenstein though). However, it is actually a fascinating way to get a fresh handle on some rather old topics. So, starting with the 'Young Hegelians', we see how many had theology as their focus. We can even see prefiguring of where much of theology would go in the 20th century (though Stirner is interesting as a prefigurement of Nietzsche, as well as perhaps direct influence, but he is interesting in this discussion because he mocked not only religion but European atheist ideologies as crypto-Christian, a charge that would be brought against 'scientific socialism' in the term 'messianism'). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Hegelians Main Members [edit] David Strauss David Strauss wrote Das Leben Jesu (The Life of Jesus|The Life of Jesus, Critically Examined) in 1835, in which he argued - in a Hegelian framework - against both the supernatural elements of the Gospel and the idea that the Christian church was the sole bearer of absolute truth. He believed the Gospel stories were mythical responses to the situation the Jewish community at the time found themselves in. The idea that 'infinite reason' or 'the absolute' (i.e. broadly Hegelian notions of God) could be incarnated within a finite human being was particularly absurd. Moreover, the original teachings of Jesus, which were aimed at aiding the poor and downtrodden, had slowly been perverted and usurped by the establishment to manipulate and oppress the populaces of the world by promising them a reward in the afterlife if they refrained from rebellion against the powers that be in this. [edit] Bruno Bauer Bruno Bauer went further, and claimed that the entire story of Jesus was a myth. He found no record of anyone named Yeshua of Nazareth in any then-extant Roman records. (Subsequent research has, in fact, found such citations, notably by the Roman historian Tacitus and the Jewish historian Josephus, although these citations are not contemporaneous with Jesus' life and are widely viewed as forgeries.) Bauer argued that almost all prominent historical figures in antiquity are referenced in other works (e.g., Aristophanes mocking Socrates in his plays), but as he could not find any such references to Jesus, it was likely that the entire story of Jesus was fabricated [edit] Ludwig Feuerbach Ludwig Feuerbach wrote a psychological profile of a believer called Das Wesen des Christentums (The Essence of Christianity). He argues that the believer is presented with a doctrine that encourages the projection of fantasies onto the world. Believers are encouraged to believe in miracles, and to idealize all their weaknesses by imagining an omnipotent, omniscient, immortal God who represents the antithesis of all human flaws and shortcomings. [edit] Karl Neuwerck Karl Neuwerck was a lecturer of Hegelian philosophy in Berlin who lost his teaching license along with Bruno Bauer in 1842.[3] [edit] Arnold Ruge As an advocate of a free and united Germany, Arnold Ruge shared Hegel's belief that history is a progressive advance towards the realization of freedom, and that freedom is attained in the State, the creation of the rational General Will. At the same time he criticized Hegel for having given an interpretation of history which was closed to the future, in the sense that it left no room for novelty.[4] [edit] Max Stirner Max Stirner would occasionally socialize with the Young Hegelians, but held views much to the contrary of these thinkers, all of whom he consequently satirized and mocked in his nominalist masterpiece Der Einzige und Sein Eigentum (The Ego and Its Own). [edit] Younger Members [edit] Karl Marx Another Young Hegelian, Karl Marx, was at first sympathetic with this strategy of attacking Christianity to undermine the Prussian establishment, but later formed divergent ideas and broke with the Young Hegelians, attacking their views in works such as The German Ideology. Marx concluded that religion is not the basis of the establishment's power, but rather ownership of capital -- land, money, and the means of production -- lie at the heart of the establishment's power. Marx felt religion was just a smokescreen to obscure this true basis of establishment power, and indeed, was a vital crutch for the oppressed proletariat -- the opium of the people, their sole solace in life which he would not wish to take away. [edit] Friedrich Engels Friedrich Engels contributed alongside Karl Marx to The Communist Manifesto. Please help improve this section by expanding it. Further information might be found
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http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O101-LiberationTheology.html Liberation Theology From: The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions | Date: 1997 | Author: JOHN BOWKER | © The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions 1997, originally published by Oxford University Press 1997. (Hide copyright information) Copyright information Liberation Theology (perhaps more accurately in the plural, Liberation theologies), an understanding of the role of theology in moving from abstraction to praxis, in which the actual condition of the poor is the starting-point. It was defined by H. Assmann as ‘teologia desde la praxis de la liberación’ (‘ theology starting from the praxis of liberation’), and by G. Gutiérrez (b. 1928) as ‘a critical reflection both from within, and upon, historical praxis, in confrontation with the word of the Lord as lived and experienced in faith’ . Liberation theology arose in S. America out of ‘an ethical indignation at the poverty and marginalisation of the great masses of our continent’ ( L. Boff), and it is theology both lived and written ‘from the underside of history’ (Gutiérrez). It is Christian community in action, arising from what Frantz Fanon called The Wretched of the Earth (his final work, publ. months before he died in 1961). From the start, liberation theology saw itself as different from the social gospel programme of the turn of the century, epitomized in W. Rauschenbusch (1861–1919). Liberation theology saw itself facing a different agenda from that of Anglo-Saxon theology: for the latter, the agenda, set by unbelievers, is of how to speak of God in an unbelieving world. For liberation theology, the agenda is set by the question of the non-person: ‘Our question is how to tell the non-person, the nonhuman, that God is love, and that this love makes us all brothers and sisters’ (Gutiérrez). Major themes of liberation theology can be discerned in the titles of some of the leading books. Jesus Christ Liberator ( L. Boff, 1972) points out that in Christ, not words, but the Word was revealed in act, to make ‘the utopia of absolute liberation’ a topia, a place here and now. Church: Charism and Power ( L. Boff, 1981) contests the ‘institutional fossilisation’ of the centuries which has produced a hierarchical Church, oppressive and clerical, which cannot be amended by minor reform; in its place, Boff (and others) propose Iglesia popular, the church arising from the people by the power of the Holy Spirit (desde el pueblo por el Espiritu)—in which connection, the importance of base (ecclesial) communities is paramount. We Drink from Our Own Wells: The Spiritual Journey of a People ( G. Gutiérrez, 1984) took the phrase and argument of St Bernard that in matters of the spirit, one must draw first on one's own experience: whereas this has usually, in the past, been a matter of individual process, aimed at an improved interior life, in S. America the experience is communal, and often of solidarity for survival. The Power of the Poor in History ( G. Gutiérrez, 1983) reflects ‘the preferential option for the poor ’: by this is meant that ‘the poor deserve preference, not because they are morally or religiously better than others, but because God is God, in whose eyes “the last are first”’—a mother with a sick child does not love her other children less just because she commits herself immediately to the child in need; it also allows the possibility that violence may be a necessary means of bringing about justice: ‘We cannot say that violence is alright when the oppressor uses it to maintain or preserve order, but wrong when the oppressed use it to overthrow this same order.’ The response of the Vatican to liberation theology was initially hostile, but became more circumspect. The second Latin American Episcopal Conference at Medellín (CELAM II) in 1968 condemned institutionalized violence and the alliance of the Church with it; CELAM III at Puebla in 1979 endorsed the preferential option for the poor, commended base communities, and made ‘a serene affirmation of Medellín’. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, ignoring the more reflective findings of the International Theological Commission's Dossier of 1976, issued its Instruction on Certain Aspects of the Theology of Liberation in 1984, and it summoned L. Boff to Rome for investigation, forbidding him, as a result, to lecture or publish—a ban that lasted for a year. The poverty of the analysis, thought by many to amount to a caricature, led to a second Instruction on Christian Freedom and Liberation (1986). This was to be read in conjunction with the first Instruction, and was not to be taken as contradicting it, but it is a far more positive document; nevertheless, Gutiérrez was banned from lecturing in Rome in 1994. Liberation theology has had extensive influence outside S. America. From
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Liberation Theology after the End of History: The Refusal to Cease Suffering by Daniel M. Bell Jr.. 212 pgs. Read the complete book Liberation Theology after the End of History: The Refusal to Cease Suffering by becoming a questia.com member. Choose a membership plan to an academic-level library with more than 67,000 full-text books, 1.5 million articles, an entire reference set with a dictionary, encyclopedia, thesaurus plus a collection of digital tools to organize your information. publication details Contributors: Daniel M. Bell Jr Publisher: Routledge Place of Publication: London Publication Year: 2001 Subjects: Liberation Theology, South America--Church History Table of contents CONTENTS Acknowledgments ix Introduction: the end of history 1 1 The infinite undulations of the snake: capitalism, desire, and the state-form 9 Savage capitalism 10 Three theses on contemporary capitalism 10 Capitalism and desire 12 Politics and ontology 13 Desire, capitalism, and the state-form 15 Governmentality and technologies of the self 19 Beheading the king: power beyond the state 19 Technologies of power 21 Pastoral power 21 Reason of state 23 The science of police and the disciplines 24 Economic government and the rise of liberalism 26 Civil society and government through freedom 29 Societies of control 30 Beyond madness? 32 2 The Church of the poor in the wake of capitalism’s triumph 42 The crisis in Latin American liberationist thought 43 Before the revolution: New Christendom in Latin America 45 The origins of New Christendom in Latin America 45 Distinguishing the spiritual and the temporal 46 Politics and the state 48 From reform to revolution: the rise of liberation theology 51 The crisis of New Christendom 51 A theology of liberation 55 The autonomy of the temporal 56 Salvation and politics 60 Beyond New Christendom and statecraft, or not? 62 From revolution to civil society: liberationists at the end of history 65 From liberation to captivity to crisis . . . 66 . . . to civil society 68 The Church of the poor after the end of history 70 3 Christianity, desire, and the terror of justice 85 Christianity and desire 87 Bernard of Clairvaux and the Cistercians 88 Objections 96 The desire for justice 99 What justice? 101 Catholic social teaching on justice 102 Justice in Latin American liberation theology 110 The terror of justice 123 Practical efficacy? 124 Theological adequacy? 130 4 The refusal to cease suffering: forgiveness and the liberation of desire 144 The gift of forgiveness 145 Theological adequacy 146 Practical efficacy 149 Forgiveness as surrender? 153 Latin American liberationists on forgiveness 154 Beyond justice 154 The primacy of justice 156 Reservations concerning forgiveness 159 The therapy of forgiveness 161 God, grace, and the Church 162 The crucified people 165 The judgment of grace 171 Honesty about the real 174 Conversion and the revolution of the forgiven 177 No salvation without reparations? 180 Forgiveness in absentia? 184 The redemption of justice 186 The refusal to cease suffering: the risk of forgiveness 189 Disempowerment or a crucified power? 190 Endorsing suffering or suffering against suffering? 192 A wager on God 193 Index 205 I: ROMANTICISM AND RESISTANCE Mary Favret He died, and the world showed no outward sign. . . . He died, and his place . . . has never been filled up. Mary Shelley, Preface to The Poetical Works of Percy Bysshe Shelley Any objective method, duly verified, belies the initial contact with the object. It must first scrutinize everything... II: CULTURE AND CRITICISM Laurie Langbauer Writing in the first issue of Cultural Studies , the Australian critic Jennifer Craik cites Stuart Hall and Tony Bennett to argue that the development of cultural studies has seen an uneasy alliance. . . which overlooks the intrinsic incommensurability... view all excerpts Advanced Search **One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dpicid=aolcom40vanityncid=emlcntaolcom0025) ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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Thanks for the reference to this loathsome piece of shit, Well for me the topic is something like a glass of sour milk being dashed onto the redhot glowing elements of an electric heater. Could anything good come from it? I tried by going back to the Young Hegelians. I guess some liberation theologians have ended their theological careers and become Marxists. As for knowing your enemies, that book's author, btw, is a disciple of Canadian theologian-philosopher, Bernard Lonergan. Now Lonergan had a lot to say about economics. It's a wonder the current economic transition team isn't dipping into him, looking for any ideas at all that don't have to be attributed to Marx-Engels-Lenin, in order to supplement their attempts to revive Keynes (actually revive the economy). CJ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
[Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested
Dear Fellow-Subscribers: I've recently subscribed and am receiving a variety articles. However I'm looking for something specific pertaining to the following: I am currently beginning a study of 'liberation theology'. Marx and his 'dialectic' keep coming up in a way presupposing the reader has some understanding of what this is. I'm pretty clueless and need some help trying to understand what an atheist is doing (albeit not by his own direct actions) in the realm of theology. There have been some indications that this is somehow compatible with or a natural consequence of the confidence human kind has been led to place in 'science'... I'm not seeing a clear connection. I am lacking in the presuppositions to jump into the conversation with much understanding. Anyone care to respond to the issue of Marxism and 'reductionism'? Any help is appreciated. Many thanks, Susan Dane ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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Concerning Marxism and theology, while I am no expert on liberation theology, I am quite aware that many leading 20th century theologians took an interest in old Chuck (along with Feuerbach, Nietzsche and Freud), including such figures as Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebhur, and Paul Tillich, to name just a few names. The old social democrat, Michael Harrington, was pretty good on this in his book, *The Politics at God's Funeral*. Mark Lindley and I discussed Harrington in our essay, Six Prominent American Freethinkers, which is available online at: http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/fl161208.html. One of our later posters. Ralph Dumain, has discussed the issues of reductionism and emergence on a special blog at: http://www.autodidactproject.org/my/emergence-blog.html Jim Farmelant -- Susan F Dane susanfd...@mac.com wrote: Dear Fellow-Subscribers: I've recently subscribed and am receiving a variety articles. However I'm looking for something specific pertaining to the following: I am currently beginning a study of 'liberation theology'. Marx and his 'dialectic' keep coming up in a way presupposing the reader has some understanding of what this is. I'm pretty clueless and need some help trying to understand what an atheist is doing (albeit not by his own direct actions) in the realm of theology. There have been some indications that this is somehow compatible with or a natural consequence of the confidence human kind has been led to place in 'science'... I'm not seeing a clear connection. I am lacking in the presuppositions to jump into the conversation with much understanding. Anyone care to respond to the issue of Marxism and 'reductionism'? Any help is appreciated. Many thanks, Susan Dane ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1141/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007 ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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Dear Jim: Thank you so, so much for the references. I'll track them down. I appreciate your help. On Dec 23, 2008, at 7:50 AM, farmela...@juno.com wrote: Concerning Marxism and theology, while I am no expert on liberation theology, I am quite aware that many leading 20th century theologians took an interest in old Chuck (along with Feuerbach, Nietzsche and Freud), including such figures as Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebhur, and Paul Tillich, to name just a few names. The old social democrat, Michael Harrington, was pretty good on this in his book, *The Politics at God's Funeral*. Mark Lindley and I discussed Harrington in our essay, Six Prominent American Freethinkers, which is available online at: http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/fl161208.html. One of our later posters. Ralph Dumain, has discussed the issues of reductionism and emergence on a special blog at: http://www.autodidactproject.org/my/emergence-blog.html Jim Farmelant -- Susan F Dane susanfd...@mac.com wrote: Dear Fellow-Subscribers: I've recently subscribed and am receiving a variety articles. However I'm looking for something specific pertaining to the following: I am currently beginning a study of 'liberation theology'. Marx and his 'dialectic' keep coming up in a way presupposing the reader has some understanding of what this is. I'm pretty clueless and need some help trying to understand what an atheist is doing (albeit not by his own direct actions) in the realm of theology. There have been some indications that this is somehow compatible with or a natural consequence of the confidence human kind has been led to place in 'science'... I'm not seeing a clear connection. I am lacking in the presuppositions to jump into the conversation with much understanding. Anyone care to respond to the issue of Marxism and 'reductionism'? Any help is appreciated. Many thanks, Susan Dane ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1141/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007 ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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Ralph Dumain posted a response which bounced to me. I approved it for the list, but it seems that it has gotten lost in cyberspace. So, I would suggest that Ralph either try posting it again, or send it directly to me, so I can post it. Jim Farmelant -- Susan F Dane susanfd...@mac.com wrote: Dear Jim: Thank you so, so much for the references. I'll track them down. I appreciate your help. Develop a fitness program that works for you. Click here for free info and revolutionary products. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2aeoIc78l6B3dKqm8v3ghGf9bmgus0WG3ki018wmwOmQ7ap/ ___ Marxism-Thaxis mailing list Marxism-Thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism-thaxis
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Ralph Dumain wrote the following: I am puzzled as to how the question of reductionism is related to the question of liberation theology. Perhaps these were intended as separate questions. Re reductionism: note that the current location of my Emergence blog is: http://www.autodidactproject.org/blog/emergence/ If you read my introduction, you will see the main purpose of this blog: http://autodidactproject.org/blog/emergence/index.php/about/ I am attempting to track the divergent interpretations of emergence and their ideological and social motivations, some of which are quiter suspect. Does this at all relate to liberation theology? Perhaps there are links. For example, the obscurantist mystical-religious emergentism that comprises one strand of emergentism relates to the crisis of bourgeois society and its reversion to irrationalism. This strand of emergentism is financed in the millions of dollars by the reactionary Templeton Foundation. There have been linkages, affrimative linkages, between Marxism and religionism prior to the current epoch in which liberation theology was labeled as a trend. I will only single out one that points to one source of mystification: “Love Is the Fulfilling of the Law” by Hewlett Johnson, Dean of Canterbury (http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/HJ-SP1.html) This is a chapter from the Red Dean Johnson's 1940 pro-Stalinist apologia The Soviet Power. Note his sophistical argument allying dialectical materialism with Christianity and opposing both to materialism. Presumably the latter is inter alia implicitly condemned as reductionist while diamat is consonant with a religious point of view. This, however, is not what we think of in the past decades as liberation theology. Formally, there is a trend in Latin America known as liberation theology. But of course there are various liberation theologies of various individuals, religions, dominations, and populations. Cornel West's prophetic pragmatism is one example, perhaps not as obnoxious as the black liberation theology that developed in the late '60s, but just as dishonest and retrograde in its intellectual content. On the Marxist side, attachment to liberation theology is either opportunistic or self-deceiving. Radical religionists attach themselves to various desired aspects of Marxism, but amalgamating class analysis with the obscurantist metaphysics of their religions, suitably sanitized to render them revolutionary. Aside from philosophical falsification, there is the deeper issue of the relation of social development to forms of consciousness, suitably repressed by both Stalinism and liberation theology. The deeper issue of dialectic is not simply one of materialism vs idealism, but the dialectical relation between consciousness and the state of society. -Original Message- From: farmela...@juno.com Sent: Dec 23, 2008 6:50 AM To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested Concerning Marxism and theology, while I am no expert on liberation theology, I am quite aware that many leading 20th century theologians took an interest in old Chuck (along with Feuerbach, Nietzsche and Freud), including such figures as Karl Barth, Reinhold Niebhur, and Paul Tillich, to name just a few names. The old social democrat, Michael Harrington, was pretty good on this in his book, *The Politics at God's Funeral*. Mark Lindley and I discussed Harrington in our essay, Six Prominent American Freethinkers, which is available online at: http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/fl161208.html. One of our later posters. Ralph Dumain, has discussed the issues of reductionism and emergence on a special blog at: http://www.autodidactproject.org/my/emergence-blog.html Jim Farmelant -- Susan F Dane wrote: Dear Fellow-Subscribers: I've recently subscribed and am receiving a variety articles. However I'm looking for something specific pertaining to the following: I am currently beginning a study of 'liberation theology'. Marx and his 'dialectic' keep coming up in a way presupposing the reader has some understanding of what this is. I'm pretty clueless and need some help trying to understand what an atheist is doing (albeit not by his own direct actions) in the realm of theology. There have been some indications that this is somehow compatible with or a natural consequence of the confidence human kind has been led to place in 'science'... I'm not seeing a clear connection. I am lacking in the presuppositions to jump into the conversation with much understanding. Anyone care to respond to the issue of Marxism and 'reductionism'? Any help is appreciated. Many thanks, Susan Dane -Original Message- From: Ralph Dumain Sent: Dec 23, 2008 8:45 AM To: marxism-thaxis@lists.econ.utah.edu Subject: Re: [Marxism-Thaxis] specific help requested I am puzzled as to how the question of reductionism is related
